Guild Wars 2

I just wanted to take a moment to point out something because I keep seeing this meme be repeated over and over again in these forums every time something anything of importance pops up for the community to discuss. There seems to be a misunderstanding on the part of the newcomers to the game (possibly some of the veterans too) , they think that because some of us here are A: generally angry at what’s going on B: simply trying to inform folks about what we see C: trying to vie for the attention of the devs for no other purpose than to finally at long last get the game we all paid for, that this somehow makes us all trolls.

These newcomers and even some of the older players here on the forums have somehow decided that those of us who are here complaining haven’t put in the proper time discussing solutions to the problems at hand. Nothing could be further from the truth. And I don’t speak solely for myself there are plenty of others who like me are slowly (not quickly) becoming fed up with the situation after many of our suggestions have gone down the toilet.

If you look at the postings for the accounts of the people who have been here complaining recently I’m sure you’ll find plenty of early posts describing great solutions some of them already in other game titles that have thrived for years with large and sometimes ever-growing populations. These suggestions weren’t placed there by people who hate the game. They certainly wouldn’t have taken the time to write such large explanations for what they mean. They weren’t placed there by trolls or by people who have nothing better to do with their time but complain as many people have recently accused us all of. They were solutions to the problems this game faces without change. There’ve been several posts in the suggestions folder from popular game personalities and reviewers who took the time as they often do to post gameplay videos of this very game online. Some of them you’ll recognize but even these personalities have pointed out the same exact things we’ve all been saying about how terrible some of these decisions (or lack thereof) have been of late and have expressed concern that this title might be heading in a bad direction soon.

I just wanted to put this out there because if your first instinct is to jump on some “oh lord he must be a hater” bandwagon you might wanna check the history of the person you’re accusing because I’m very sure that there’s a large number out there that are wrongly accused for the sake of the fanboy pride. Sure there are trolls but you had better be certain. Many of the suggestions have been repeated by new players who came into the game late say around 1.5 years into the game who saw the same exact problems and solutions. I know I’ve sat back and smiled at the number of times certain things were repeated even long after the suggestions folder was “archived” which I still feel is a nice way of calling the trash can.

The suggestions folder was packed full of solutions to just about every problem this game has had over the past two years and would have made the game immensely more pleasurable for everyone had they been considered instead of tossed in the garbage. (And no I’m not talking about mine alone there were hundreds of posts in the beginning some completely new ideas and some excellent examples of what has worked for other similar titles in the past.) I just had to toss that out there because I’m seeing this misconception daily now in every post, it’s almost become a meme at this point it really has. “Oh you have a complaint about GW2 you must instantly be a troll” is what I’m seeing whenever someone says anything anything at all in the forums these days that’s not always on the positive side of things. It’s really sad that people haven’t taken the time to find out for themselves what posts the person has put out there in order to improve the game before they are instantly labeled and I’ve seen it happen to lots of people lately.

Not that many people want to do research in an online forum. They’d much rather point out what they see as flaws in others’ posts. While I understand the frustration you’re expressing, this thread will not change this behavior.

That said, other players are not your only audience. We’re conversing about the game. However, many of us would really like ANet to take our ideas and modify the game so it is more likely to satisfy us. I doubt ANet devs have the time to read every post, every idea, every suggestion and every wall of text posted. They’re also not likely to have the time to research your post history to see why you’re unhappy. If other players can’t figure out why you’re unhappy in any given thread, chances are the devs won’t be able to either.

People who post on forums unfortunately are the vocal minority. While I understand that you want your voice to be heard, you only represent a small portion of the overall player base.

A good example of this was what SOE did with their playerbase for a game I won’t mention here. By only listening to the people on the forums over minor issues, they alienated most of the rest of the players in the actual game who never posted on the forums which in the end caused a tremendous loss of players that they never recovered from.

And yes I agree there have been some good ideas, and some issues that have been posted about and ignored. I have posted some “issues” myself and gotten an infraction for bumping them.

As for people calling each other out here, that is something that has been a thing in MMO forums since the late 90’s. If you have a complaint, you must be a troll. There will always be “super fans” who see nothing wrong with the game. Best to just ignore those posts and move on.

Interesting post that illustrates many of the problems I’ve talked about personally.

Point 1. Not everyone that disagrees with a complaint is wrong.
Point 2. Not everything that one person or even many people see as a good solution necessarily is one.
Point 3. There are many negative posts a day that get no “fan boy” interference. There are certain posts that almost always do.

But part of the problem comes from an adversarial environment. If people don’t agree with those suggesting changes they become “mindless” fan boys. If people want changes to the game they become haters. The problem exists on both sides of the divide.

There’s plenty of rude behavior on both sides. Those who want certain changes think those changes are better for the game. Those who don’t want certain changes, however, many think it’s better for the game not to have them.

Just because someone proposes a solution doesn’t mean it’s going to be universally loved or accepted, even if you personally think it’s a good solution. It doesn’t work that way.

People make comments and people respond. We’re all giving feedback. You may not like my feedback and I might not like yours but we all have the right to leave it.

It would be nice if people weren’t quite as antagonistic in their attacks, but what can you do. It’s the Internet.

Nobody knows the real figures. What percentage of players is uncomfortable with feature A, what percentage doesn’t give a kitten and what percentage really enjoys it?

Of the 30+ players which are active in my guild I am probably the only one posting here from time to time. The rest of them most of the time is busy playing and enjoying the game. Does that mean all is well? Of course not. But among my guildies reception of this game it is way better than what a quick glance at this forum might make you think. And be sure, some of the ideas and wishes posted here would quickly lead to a lot of my guildies stepping away from this game. Whether your personal interests resonate with a majority of the player base is not easy to find out.

And yes, it is about the majority and about average.

200 people in my guild, about 100 regulars and I think three of us post here, and only me regularly. Most of us are relatively happy.

If I had a silver for every time Vayne mentioned his guild and the people in it as a “healthy” example of the player base.

@Vanive- I do realize that only a few people do post on the forums but there are solutions that are clearly better than the current system and wouldn’t alienate the player base.

See for example the over-suggested idea that FOTM skins should be obtainable through a token system.
How would that be bad?

Harper.4173:

If I had a silver for every time Vayne mentioned his guild and the people in it as a “healthy” example of the player base.

@Vanive- I do realize that only a few people do post on the forums but there are solutions that are clearly better than the current system and wouldn’t alienate the player base.

See for example the over-suggested idea that FOTM skins should be obtainable through a token system.
How would that be bad?

You might have 20 silver. Whee! lol

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

You’d end up making it harder and harder to find people running fractals, because dungeons are faster/more money.

You’d have to redesign fractals to give them a new reason to enter them by upping the rewards, and that’s a whole different can of worms.

Really? Only you regularly post? What a shame more of your guildies don’t take an interest in the forums. /smh

I can’t say I see every post with a criticism of the game labeled as a hate post. Or ideas/suggestions for the game from posters then labeled as haters. I do see different opinions are some suggestions, like mounts, for example. Or the NPE.

If truth be told, I see more labeling of ‘white knight/fan boy’ for people that enjoy certain aspects of the game, than ‘haters’ for those that do not.

It would be nice if people were mature enough not to call each other names. Probably just more fantasy, though.

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

It would be completely possible to create a system where people will accumulate [fractal currency] at a reasonable rate. Casual players would still be running Fractals for a long time until they have attained all their favorite skins. Additionally, you could increase the gold rewards and decrease the ascended chest drop rate so Fractals offer more reliable rewards and less RNG while not outclassing dungeons in terms of rewards.

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

My point is there are no easy answers. That’s my point. Everything seems good on paper. Make champions more rewarding, gave birth to the Queen’s deal champ train, which caused quite a few people problems.

Every change that seems easy and reasonable may very well have other consequences. That’s my point. People who program for a living probably know better, which is why so many “good” suggestions aren’t leapt upon.

Vayne.8563:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

My point is there are no easy answers. That’s my point. Everything seems good on paper. Make champions more rewarding, gave birth to the Queen’s deal champ train, which caused quite a few people problems.

Every change that seems easy and reasonable may very well have other consequences. That’s my point. People who program for a living probably know better, which is why so many “good” suggestions aren’t leapt upon.

I see your point and agree to some extent. Players are often unreasonable and don’t think their suggestions through and, often times, don’t understand when others point out flaws in their suggestions. That is usually when threads devolve into “hater/fanboy” posts.

OTOH, their have been many well thought out and thoroughly discussed suggestions that could easily be implemented like fractal weapon skins. If you offer skins in other dungeons for tokens, but not in fractals, that tells me anet knows the rewards are pathetic and refuse to address the real problem.

Same with champ trains. Instead of allowing the champ trains to run rampant for 6 months, they should have made them killable only once per day per account like world bosses, or something of the sort. I’m sure at the time people had some good suggestions, but instead they just nerfed champ bags and your right back where you started.

+1 OP.

People forget that just because we don’t like part x or feature y doesn’t mean we don’t like the game as a whole.

People also forget that if someone took the time to complain on the forums about something, it shows that they do care to some extent about the game.

If they didn’t like it and didn’t care, they would simply leave.

tigirius.9014:

~Snip~

If you look at the postings for the accounts of the people who have been here complaining recently I’m sure you’ll find plenty of early posts describing great solutions some of them already in other game titles that have thrived for years with large and sometimes ever-growing populations. These suggestions weren’t placed there by people who hate the game. They certainly wouldn’t have taken the time to write such large explanations for what they mean. They weren’t placed there by trolls or by people who have nothing better to do with their time but complain as many people have recently accused us all of. They were solutions to the problems this game faces without change. There’ve been several posts in the suggestions folder from popular game personalities and reviewers who took the time as they often do to post gameplay videos of this very game online. Some of them you’ll recognize but even these personalities have pointed out the same exact things we’ve all been saying about how terrible some of these decisions (or lack thereof) have been of late and have expressed concern that this title might be heading in a bad direction soon.

~Snip~

The suggestions folder was packed full of solutions to just about every problem this game has had over the past two years and would have made the game immensely more pleasurable for everyone had they been considered instead of tossed in the garbage. (And no I’m not talking about mine alone there were hundreds of posts in the beginning some completely new ideas and some excellent examples of what has worked for other similar titles in the past.)

~Snip~

I had to point this out specifically, because if any of you knew how A.net works, then you should have realized that posted suggestions using ideas from other games would have been summarily tossed in the trash. That’s not the Arena.net way, never has been and probably never will be, their way is to come up with innovative and forward thinking solutions(whether they’re good or not is a completely different matter), but it’s not their intention to borrow ideas from other games, no matter how successful. That’s just the way it is, and unless the entire management team is changed(fat chance), that’s the way it will stay. Now taking that into consideration, without knowing the internal workings of the game, and they are quite different from others, then most suggestions are probably way off base. I’ve seen A.net devs themselves struggle with coming up with solutions for problems during the design process…it’s a lot harder than people think, there’s a reason they to so many iterations between concept and release…far more than people can imagine or probably any other development company.

Vayne.8563:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

My point is there are no easy answers. That’s my point. Everything seems good on paper. Make champions more rewarding, gave birth to the Queen’s deal champ train, which caused quite a few people problems.

Every change that seems easy and reasonable may very well have other consequences. That’s my point. People who program for a living probably know better, which is why so many “good” suggestions aren’t leapt upon.

Unfortunately for you Vayne there are several easy answers to the problems we’re facing in multiple areas of the game the problem is is that they can’t be monetized so they are being ignored.

For example, the code to turn off hobosacks on our own personal view (which isn’t turning it off completely for the rest of the players just your own view) has been explored and explored by several programmers and well known as an easy solution so that players who don’t want to see that on their own toon while playing can adjust it by using an added toggle in the armor pane. Another example is the total immunity from CC that champions have, several other titles with similar combat have only temporary immunity that is not instantly reset whenever a CC is used again, what does this mean? There is a limit to the bosses/champs immunity to CC giving players the ability to make strategy which cannot be done currently.

So While you might have good intentions in defending the practices of ignoring several months of the suggestions folder and the repeated suggestions that have been going on since the suggestions folder has been archived, it’s safe to say that it’s not standard practice and that it’s definitely not responsible action on the part of the devs.

I’d also like to point out that this kind of post is exactly the reason why people stop listening to you, because despite all of the evidence to the contrary you’re still thinking with rainbows and unicorns when it comes to what’s going on with this title from a managerial standpoint and a business standpoint. Unfortunately, sometimes devs and their managers need to buckle down and make the game better by releasing those fixes that have long plagued the game even if it means losing money because it’s well past time. Trust me it’s well past time for PVE combat to be fixed, for condition stacking to be fixed etc etc etc, the list is long.

And finally, I’ve not come here to annoy people, these are serious consumer concerns and the fact that the suggestions folder has been archived permanently is telling of a larger problem especially with the recent silence. Trying to suggest that those of us, who are expressing those concerns in a manner that’s not irate but more disappointed, are somehow simply should not be heard because people don’t like the negative and people think that’s all we do is just another logical fallacy and it needs to be outed for what it is.

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

My point is there are no easy answers. That’s my point. Everything seems good on paper. Make champions more rewarding, gave birth to the Queen’s deal champ train, which caused quite a few people problems.

Every change that seems easy and reasonable may very well have other consequences. That’s my point. People who program for a living probably know better, which is why so many “good” suggestions aren’t leapt upon.

I see your point and agree to some extent. Players are often unreasonable and don’t think their suggestions through and, often times, don’t understand when others point out flaws in their suggestions. That is usually when threads devolve into “hater/fanboy” posts.

OTOH, their have been many well thought out and thoroughly discussed suggestions that could easily be implemented like fractal weapon skins. If you offer skins in other dungeons for tokens, but not in fractals, that tells me anet knows the rewards are pathetic and refuse to address the real problem.

Same with champ trains. Instead of allowing the champ trains to run rampant for 6 months, they should have made them killable only once per day per account like world bosses, or something of the sort. I’m sure at the time people had some good suggestions, but instead they just nerfed champ bags and your right back where you started.

I believe the RNG in things like fractal weapon skins, Teq/Wurm and TA AP to be in response to two things.

1. Posters waxing nostalgic about GW elite instances which contained extremely rare RNG drops, and which they ran ad infinitum to try to get those drops.
2. The reaction to GW2 dungeon tokens. Within a week or so of launch, some posters complained that it took too long to garner the tokens for a dungeon look. ANet increased the total number of tokens for a run. They also at same point back-loaded the tokens to the end of the dungeon and put in token DR because players were farming the first bosses over and over. Then, within a month or so of launch, there were quite a few people posting that they had gotten their dungeon looks, and had nothing to do.

It seems you are saying the reason the Suggestion ‘folder’ (I assume you mean sub-forum) was archived is because the Devs were not interested in the suggestions found there.

It was announced that the reason for archiving the Suggestion sub-forum was to aid the Devs by letting them find suggestions and feedback in the sub-forum that the Devs were affliated with. Audio suggestions in the Audio sub-forum, Mesmer suggestions in the Mesmer sub-forum, etc., etc. This way the Devs didn’t have to peruse dozens of suggestions that were completely out of their realm of expertise.

I don’t think there was any real iniquitous reasoning behind it.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

If I had a silver for every time Vayne mentioned his guild and the people in it as a “healthy” example of the player base.

@Vanive- I do realize that only a few people do post on the forums but there are solutions that are clearly better than the current system and wouldn’t alienate the player base.

See for example the over-suggested idea that FOTM skins should be obtainable through a token system.
How would that be bad?

You might have 20 silver. Whee! lol

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

You’d end up making it harder and harder to find people running fractals, because dungeons are faster/more money.

You’d have to redesign fractals to give them a new reason to enter them by upping the rewards, and that’s a whole different can of worms.

You do realize that a lot of people don’t get their weapon and never do fractals again.
Or that they decided to never do it after they get their third weapon of the same kind and not the one they want.

They used a token system in Dungeons. Why? Because it’s better and it works.
Else why not use RNG based rewards there too?

No matter how you look at it FOTM rewards are just broken. Up till a month ago you had a higher chance to get a skin in lower than 50 FOTM runs ( 30-39).

People who run fractals don’t do it for the skins – they do it because they like FOTM. The chances of a skin are so low you shouldn’t even bother to hope you’re going to get it. Research into it – you’ll find it to be true.

I farmed FOTM for 8 months or more to get my skin – I still do FOTM now – but there are many that won’t even touch it because they know the RNG is so bad it’s not worth it.

There are also many that gave up along the way because it’s too much of a grind.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

If I had a silver for every time Vayne mentioned his guild and the people in it as a “healthy” example of the player base.

@Vanive- I do realize that only a few people do post on the forums but there are solutions that are clearly better than the current system and wouldn’t alienate the player base.

See for example the over-suggested idea that FOTM skins should be obtainable through a token system.
How would that be bad?

You might have 20 silver. Whee! lol

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

You’d end up making it harder and harder to find people running fractals, because dungeons are faster/more money.

You’d have to redesign fractals to give them a new reason to enter them by upping the rewards, and that’s a whole different can of worms.

You do realize that a lot of people don’t get their weapon and never do fractals again.
Or that they decided to never do it after they get their third weapon of the same kind and not the one they want.

They used a token system in Dungeons. Why? Because it’s better and it works.
Else why not use RNG based rewards there too?

No matter how you look at it FOTM rewards are just broken. Up till a month ago you had a higher chance to get a skin in lower than 50 FOTM runs ( 30-39).

People who run fractals don’t do it for the skins – they do it because they like FOTM. The chances of a skin are so low you shouldn’t even bother to hope you’re going to get it. Research into it – you’ll find it to be true.

I farmed FOTM for 8 months or more to get my skin – I still do FOTM now – but there are many that won’t even touch it because they know the RNG is so bad it’s not worth it.

There are also many that gave up along the way because it’s too much of a grind.

They used a token system in dungeons because there are 8 of them or 28 explorable paths. There’s one fractals.

And dungeons are fast enough to run for profit…fractals not so much. People FARM dungeons. Most people don’t farm fractals.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe the RNG in things like fractal weapon skins, Teq/Wurm and TA AP to be in response to two things.

1. Posters waxing nostalgic about GW elite instances which contained extremely rare RNG drops, and which they ran ad infinitum to try to get those drops.
2. The reaction to GW2 dungeon tokens. Within a week or so of launch, some posters complained that it took too long to garner the tokens for a dungeon look. ANet increased the total number of tokens for a run. They also at same point back-loaded the tokens to the end of the dungeon and put in token DR because players were farming the first bosses over and over. Then, within a month or so of launch, there were quite a few people posting that they had gotten their dungeon looks, and had nothing to do.

The elite areas dropped “tokens” in the original, i.e. ectos, shards, gems, etc. Which in turn was currency as well. I guess i find it odd that the relics don’t lead to buying the skins, like other dungeon currency.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

It seems you are saying the reason the Suggestion ‘folder’ (I assume you mean sub-forum) was archived is because the Devs were not interested in the suggestions found there.

It was announced that the reason for archiving the Suggestion sub-forum was to aid the Devs by letting them find suggestions and feedback in the sub-forum that the Devs were affliated with. Audio suggestions in the Audio sub-forum, Mesmer suggestions in the Mesmer sub-forum, etc., etc. This way the Devs didn’t have to peruse dozens of suggestions that were completely out of their realm of expertise.

I don’t think there was any real iniquitous reasoning behind it.

Except for two things. There’s a system that could have been used inside the game to archive the suggestions so much more efficiently and effectively that they refuse to use, the suggestions that new people keep churning out that are also being ignored are repeats over and over of things already found in the suggestions archive.

So while it’s true that’s what they announced, they really haven’t taken the time to make it possible to make these suggestions in a more useful manner to organize them properly or give players a direct line to the devs, and instead chose to keep these suggestions in a medium that they’ve already shown that they rarely if ever pay attention to in the first place.

This system was also suggested as an alternative and more organized means of keeping in touch with the playerbase, something that this team struggles with.

But that’s only part of the point part of it is that because most players don’t bother with the archive they mislabel those of us who spent several hours posting suggestions to the suggestions folder that was suddenly never to be used and then they label those of us who spent alot of time trying to improve the game by requesting things that would have increased the fun factor, trolls. That’s the problem I’m seeing. We have a dev team who struggles with connecting with the playerbase that’s left, and we have their white knights attacking those of us who really just want the finally get the game we paid for.

tigirius.9014:

they label those of us who spent alot of time trying to improve the game by requesting things that would have increased the fun factor, trolls. That’s the problem I’m seeing. We have a dev team who struggles with connecting with the playerbase that’s left, and we have their white knights attacking those of us who really just want the finally get the game we paid for.

I’m sorry to say this, but the attitude you are displaying in this paragraph is exactly the attitude that has led me to disregard your posts before (and I have read a lot of them over the last few months). Making suggestions is great, and voicing them on the forums is certainly a good way to get them considered. In the end, if your ideas and suggestions are not implemented, this does not mean that the devs have trouble connecting with the playerbase. It just means the playerbase is large and diverse, and the devs connect with a part of it that does not necessarily share all your views and ideas.

Like I mentioned, I have read several of your posts, suggestions and comments, to the point where you have become one of the posters who’s name give me a pretty good idea of what kind of post I’m expecting to read (don’t take this personal, I simply have a good memory for names). Your suggestion may improve the game to you, and increase your fun factor, but they certainly don’t go in a direction I would want the game to go. I’m pretty happy the game is going in a different direction than the one you have been suggesting in the past, because the direction it is going is increasing my personal fun factor much more than your suggestions ever would.

If you could accept that your ideas and suggestions may not always be the be-all-end-all and stop accusing anyone with a different preference to being a “white knight”, I’m sure you’d get a much more favourable reaction to your posts.

Rasimir.6239:

tigirius.9014:

they label those of us who spent alot of time trying to improve the game by requesting things that would have increased the fun factor, trolls. That’s the problem I’m seeing. We have a dev team who struggles with connecting with the playerbase that’s left, and we have their white knights attacking those of us who really just want the finally get the game we paid for.

I’m sorry to say this, but the attitude you are displaying in this paragraph is exactly the attitude that has led me to disregard your posts before (and I have read a lot of them over the last few months). Making suggestions is great, and voicing them on the forums is certainly a good way to get them considered. In the end, if your ideas and suggestions are not implemented, this does not mean that the devs have trouble connecting with the playerbase. It just means the playerbase is large and diverse, and the devs connect with a part of it that does not necessarily share all your views and ideas.

Like I mentioned, I have read several of your posts, suggestions and comments, to the point where you have become one of the posters who’s name give me a pretty good idea of what kind of post I’m expecting to read (don’t take this personal, I simply have a good memory for names). Your suggestion may improve the game to you, and increase your fun factor, but they certainly don’t go in a direction I would want the game to go. I’m pretty happy the game is going in a different direction than the one you have been suggesting in the past, because the direction it is going is increasing my personal fun factor much more than your suggestions ever would.

If you could accept that your ideas and suggestions may not always be the be-all-end-all and stop accusing anyone with a different preference to being a “white knight”, I’m sure you’d get a much more favourable reaction to your posts.

+1

Indeed.

I often think of this when I see some suggestions.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/Pokemon+creator+has+something+to+say/funny-pictures/5149498/

It’s probably not a legit quote, but the idea behind it is sound. What often sounds like a good idea to us, just actually might make the game nearly unplayable. The devs have to filter out the suggestions. Many suggestions are taken into account, and some are even implemented. But I am sure that most go ignored. As said before, we don’t know the inner workings of Anet or the game, and that great idea, that everyone may love, may just turn out to end up breaking the game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

The opposite is also true. With RNG that could take years of daily attempts, I’m simply not going to bother in the first place. There are plenty of other ways ArenaNet could encourage people to play. Forced RNG only leads to burnout.

Then the question becomes which is more effective.

So, what’s your point here Vayne?

You think game designers should create content locked behind RNG that causes player burnout rather than creating content that is rewarded properly so that players want to play it more? Every other dungeon in the game allows you to buy skins with tokens, why not fractals?

I don’t see how burning players out of any aspect of the game is a good idea.

My point is there are no easy answers. That’s my point. Everything seems good on paper. Make champions more rewarding, gave birth to the Queen’s deal champ train, which caused quite a few people problems.

Every change that seems easy and reasonable may very well have other consequences. That’s my point. People who program for a living probably know better, which is why so many “good” suggestions aren’t leapt upon.

I see your point and agree to some extent. Players are often unreasonable and don’t think their suggestions through and, often times, don’t understand when others point out flaws in their suggestions. That is usually when threads devolve into “hater/fanboy” posts.

OTOH, their have been many well thought out and thoroughly discussed suggestions that could easily be implemented like fractal weapon skins. If you offer skins in other dungeons for tokens, but not in fractals, that tells me anet knows the rewards are pathetic and refuse to address the real problem.

Same with champ trains. Instead of allowing the champ trains to run rampant for 6 months, they should have made them killable only once per day per account like world bosses, or something of the sort. I’m sure at the time people had some good suggestions, but instead they just nerfed champ bags and your right back where you started.

I believe the RNG in things like fractal weapon skins, Teq/Wurm and TA AP to be in response to two things.

1. Posters waxing nostalgic about GW elite instances which contained extremely rare RNG drops, and which they ran ad infinitum to try to get those drops.
2. The reaction to GW2 dungeon tokens. Within a week or so of launch, some posters complained that it took too long to garner the tokens for a dungeon look. ANet increased the total number of tokens for a run. They also at same point back-loaded the tokens to the end of the dungeon and put in token DR because players were farming the first bosses over and over. Then, within a month or so of launch, there were quite a few people posting that they had gotten their dungeon looks, and had nothing to do.

1. I never played the original GW so I can’t really comment here. All I would say to that is RNG in any game, especially in fractals where it’s been proven that it broke at least one time in the past, is a bad idea. Even if we forget the token idea, they should at least have skin boxes so you can choose the one you want or some way to keep people from getting 10 of the same one.

2. To this I would say, shame on anet for overreacting to a “problem” too quickly. There will always be a small percentage of people who burn through content fast. There is no getting around that, so why change the game for that minority?

And just for the record I have no stake in fractal skins. I’m only using it as one example that another poster brought up.

Vayne.8563:

They used a token system in dungeons because there are 8 of them or 28 explorable paths. There’s one fractals.

And dungeons are fast enough to run for profit…fractals not so much. People FARM dungeons. Most people don’t farm fractals.

1. I am unofficially vetoing your argument here. I have seen you argue in other threads (threads about lack of content added to the game) that fractals is more than one dungeon because it’s broken into different paths. Now in this case, it’s “only one”? Your argument is therefore invalid.

2. Your second point again tells me the rewards are broken in the game and rather than solve that problem they lather on more RNG.

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

They used a token system in dungeons because there are 8 of them or 28 explorable paths. There’s one fractals.

And dungeons are fast enough to run for profit…fractals not so much. People FARM dungeons. Most people don’t farm fractals.

1. I am unofficially vetoing your argument here. I have seen you argue in other threads (threads about lack of content added to the game) that fractals is more than one dungeon because it’s broken into different paths. Now in this case, it’s “only one”? Your argument is therefore invalid.

2. Your second point again tells me the rewards are broken in the game and rather than solve that problem they lather on more RNG.

Yes, Fractals are technically a dungeon, that’s what I’ve argued in other threads. However there are rewards and achievements you can only get from doing Fractals. I argued Fractals were a dungeon because they were including under the dungeon label of achievements. But that’s completely out of context for this article.

I make the same arguments of dungeons like TA Aetherpath. If a dungeon is not rewarding enough, even if it’s challenging, people won’t do it.

Putting those skins in gets people to run it. That’s one of the things people do it for. Ascended rings are another, but you get those rather fast and end up with too many of them.

By the way you can’t officially veto anything, since you’re not an official. At least not here.

I never EVER said the rewards in the Fractals were good enough. Not once, not ever. The Fractal rewards are pretty bad.

Which doesn’t equate to the rewards being broken “in the game”. It equates to rewards being broken in the Fractals. And even broken is a bad word. I’d use underwhelming.

I think that the entire dungeon reward system needs to be overhauled. I don’t get why you get 1.5 gold from AC Path 3, but 1 Gold from paths in dungeons that take much longer to run.

Vayne.8563:

I think that the entire dungeon reward system needs to be overhauled. I don’t get why you get 1.5 gold from AC Path 3, but 1 Gold from paths in dungeons that take much longer to run.

They had planned to rebalance/overhaul all dungeon explorables and adjust rewards properly as part of their initiative(of the beginning of 2013) to curb dominance of power specs back during the mid of 2013.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/dungeon-rewards/

Ascalonian Catacombs was the only dungeon since then to receive the rebalance, hence why it has a higher gold reward. Arah did not receive a rebalance but still received a “hot change” in its reward structure.

What I have quoted from you is a small piece of what I have been waiting on for a very long time now.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Vayne.8563:

I think that the entire dungeon reward system needs to be overhauled. I don’t get why you get 1.5 gold from AC Path 3, but 1 Gold from paths in dungeons that take much longer to run.

They had planned to rebalance/overhaul all dungeon explorables and adjust rewards properly as part of their initiative(of the beginning of 2013) to curb dominance of power specs back during the mid of 2013.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/dungeon-rewards/

Ascalonian Catacombs was the only dungeon since then to receive the rebalance, hence why it has a higher gold reward. Arah did not receive a rebalance but still received a “hot change” in its reward structure.

What I have quoted from you is a small piece of what I have been waiting on for a very long time now.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. It’s something that needs to be looked at. I can see why dungeon runners would be disgruntled.

Amongst the many, another thread that illustrates the need for the average GW2 player to just not care, nor be compassionate towards the game.

I’ve learned to cope by playing other games and ignoring the terrible content in this game. I don’t care what kind of player that makes me. I did my time here, got burned, and i’m not mad anymore. Greed Wars 2 is gonna be Greed Wars 2, so learn to play Greed Wars 2 for the great WvW (or whatever interests you in this game) and go on to something more seriously maintained and community friendly.

Easy peasy. Who cares what ANet is doing? I know i don’t. lol

Vayne.8563:

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. It’s something that needs to be looked at. I can see why dungeon runners would be disgruntled.

The bright side is that much of the suggestions have begun to arise in the living story in some way, shape, or form.

A while back I as well as a few others have stated that if we can FGS mobs into the walls then mobs should be able to do it to us as well to level the playing field and we have the mordrem teragriffs as an example of that. Different levels of armor and health, via tough bark, etc.

The downside of course is that its not being implemented in the areas atleast I would be hopeful for ( sPvE group content).

Still a step in a desirable direction atleast for me.

I’m seeing alot of folks here who need reading comprehension lessons especially considering you quoted me and that’s not at all what I was saying Rasimir.

The sentence in question is “they label those of us who spent alot of time trying to improve the game by requesting things that would have increased the fun factor, trolls” That sentence right there isn’t about the devs not taking my personal suggestions and using them as you seem to be adding words and context to what I was saying, that sentence was specifically about how people don’t even bother checking the past postings of the people like me who are complaining, and rightly so, by acting like we haven’t taken the time necessary to provide solutions to the problems. The problem is also, that since the archiving of the suggestions folder, no one’s and I repeat this for people like Rasimir, who need help understanding, no one’s suggestions on the major issues this game faces in the archived folder are being taken seriously. That’s the secondary situation going on. I’m talking fixes to combat, balance issues in PVE, rewards systems, alternative/non-combat activities.

There were also several suggestions (not posted by me Rasimir) that would have given them a much more organized system of getting suggestions outside of theforums and inside the game which btw has been used by other games in the past which has vastly improved their communication with their playerbase.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

If I had a silver for every time Vayne mentioned his guild and the people in it as a “healthy” example of the player base.

@Vanive- I do realize that only a few people do post on the forums but there are solutions that are clearly better than the current system and wouldn’t alienate the player base.

See for example the over-suggested idea that FOTM skins should be obtainable through a token system.
How would that be bad?

You might have 20 silver. Whee! lol

If FoTM skins were attainable through a token system, a lot of people would get their skins and never do fractals again. I really believe this is true.

You’d end up making it harder and harder to find people running fractals, because dungeons are faster/more money.

You’d have to redesign fractals to give them a new reason to enter them by upping the rewards, and that’s a whole different can of worms.

You do realize that a lot of people don’t get their weapon and never do fractals again.
Or that they decided to never do it after they get their third weapon of the same kind and not the one they want.

They used a token system in Dungeons. Why? Because it’s better and it works.
Else why not use RNG based rewards there too?

No matter how you look at it FOTM rewards are just broken. Up till a month ago you had a higher chance to get a skin in lower than 50 FOTM runs ( 30-39).

People who run fractals don’t do it for the skins – they do it because they like FOTM. The chances of a skin are so low you shouldn’t even bother to hope you’re going to get it. Research into it – you’ll find it to be true.

I farmed FOTM for 8 months or more to get my skin – I still do FOTM now – but there are many that won’t even touch it because they know the RNG is so bad it’s not worth it.

There are also many that gave up along the way because it’s too much of a grind.

They used a token system in dungeons because there are 8 of them or 28 explorable paths. There’s one fractals.

And dungeons are fast enough to run for profit…fractals not so much. People FARM dungeons. Most people don’t farm fractals.

Their intention at launch was not that people farm dungeons. Case in point the abysmal rewards early on.
The rewards that meant nobody even cared to do them until the rewards were upped.

Also the 28 paths argument makes no sense. Really.

There are 14 fractals. And 5 tiers of difficulty. Also 19 instability modifiers. You do the math.

Vayne.8563:

cranked.3812:

Vayne.8563:

They used a token system in dungeons because there are 8 of them or 28 explorable paths. There’s one fractals.

And dungeons are fast enough to run for profit…fractals not so much. People FARM dungeons. Most people don’t farm fractals.

1. I am unofficially vetoing your argument here. I have seen you argue in other threads (threads about lack of content added to the game) that fractals is more than one dungeon because it’s broken into different paths. Now in this case, it’s “only one”? Your argument is therefore invalid.

2. Your second point again tells me the rewards are broken in the game and rather than solve that problem they lather on more RNG.

Yes, Fractals are technically a dungeon, that’s what I’ve argued in other threads. However there are rewards and achievements you can only get from doing Fractals. I argued Fractals were a dungeon because they were including under the dungeon label of achievements. But that’s completely out of context for this article.

I make the same arguments of dungeons like TA Aetherpath. If a dungeon is not rewarding enough, even if it’s challenging, people won’t do it.

Putting those skins in gets people to run it. That’s one of the things people do it for. Ascended rings are another, but you get those rather fast and end up with too many of them.

By the way you can’t officially veto anything, since you’re not an official. At least not here.

I never EVER said the rewards in the Fractals were good enough. Not once, not ever. The Fractal rewards are pretty bad.

Which doesn’t equate to the rewards being broken “in the game”. It equates to rewards being broken in the Fractals. And even broken is a bad word. I’d use underwhelming.

I think that the entire dungeon reward system needs to be overhauled. I don’t get why you get 1.5 gold from AC Path 3, but 1 Gold from paths in dungeons that take much longer to run.

Skins not being RNG wouldn’t mean people don’t run them. I think a lot more would run them if there was a reliable way to get the skins.

Say 200 pristine relics per skin. That’s a LOT of runs to do to get all the skins you want.
I’d say more runs than your average player will run fotm for hoping to get the skin he wants.

Plus – RNG means that the person can get the skin after 1 run. Or 3. Or 10. Why would he then run FOTM?

A token system is overall better because it can keep players playing for just as much or even more time but without the unnecessary frustration.