Guild Wars 2

Just did this scourgejaw heart mission. You

A) Whip prisoners to make them work harder.
B) Any rebels have to be forced back to work by hitting them.
C) The guards tell them to work or die. (The guards never lose)

Great mission, Anet. Great.

that’s awesome.. where is it?

my contribution: there’s a heart where you more or less rip baby dolyaks from the breasts of their mothers (and maybe also kill their mothers, don’t quite remember) in the northern part of Wayfarer.

Oh right. They are Flame Legion, iirc. Serves em right since they were enslaving the charr in the first place. Give em a taste of their own medicine.

In Scourgejaw, they are all seriously nasty criminals.

I feel bad stealing food from Grawl (I think its in Wayfarer).

I also feel pretty bad sometimes wiping out Separatists because in at least a few of my characters’ backstories, they sympathise with the Separatist cause.

Lord Kuru.3685:

that’s awesome.. where is it?

my contribution: there’s a heart where you more or less rip baby dolyaks from the breasts of their mothers (and maybe also kill their mothers, don’t quite remember) in the northern part of Wayfarer.

Naturally, when you steal their children, they attack you. Who am I to walk away from a fight with an angry dolyak?

GuzziHero.2467:

In Scourgejaw, they are all seriously nasty criminals.

I feel bad stealing food from Grawl (I think its in Wayfarer).

I also feel pretty bad sometimes wiping out Separatists because in at least a few of my characters’ backstories, they sympathise with the Separatist cause.

The grawl try and steal it back. It’s part o the hate/hate relationship between grawl and Norn.

I try not to kill the Dolyak mums. Plus it makes that heart more hectic.

I once skinned a quaggan, then stuffed it and wore it on my back.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Just did this scourgejaw heart mission. You

A) Whip prisoners to make them work harder.
B) Any rebels have to be forced back to work by hitting them.
C) The guards tell them to work or die. (The guards never lose)

Great mission, Anet. Great.

It’s a prison. It isn’t supposed to be enjoyable, and maybe (not really, actually a statistical fact from US social scientists observations of foreign prisons) if more real prisons were like it criminals might actually make the necessary changes to their lives to not ever go back.

Conncept.7638:

It’s a prison. It isn’t supposed to be enjoyable, and maybe (not really, actually a statistical fact from US social scientists observation of foreign prisons) if more real prisons were like it criminals might actually make the necessary changes to their lives to not ever go back.

While I couldn’t care less about a quest in a video game, I find it funny that you’re suggesting prisons should whip/physically abuse their inmates irl :P

Once again, you don’t have to whip the prisoners. If you did its because you chose to. You can just pick up the ore and throw it into the furnace.

In the world of GW2, even a minor offense can lead to an angry mob of players hunt you down and kill you. You stole some supplies? Somebody will come and kill you. Somebody called you a bandit? Someone will come and kill you. In a way, the players are homicidal soldiers of fortune who will just kill anybody if it promises to fill their pockets or progress bars.

ArenaNet seems to be aware of that, trying to counter-balance it by having the player feed cows, grow flowers and other stuff. But that makes it all the weirder.

Out of curiosity, has anyone seen what happens if you do nothing to stop the prisoners?

Not one tear shed for the smashing of thousands of Skritt shinies?

arKRazor.8654:

Not one tear shed for the smashing of thousands of Skritt shinies?

I feel bad for both being Hero of the Skritt and holding the Skritt Slayer achievement :’-(

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

arKRazor.8654:

Not one tear shed for the smashing of thousands of Skritt shinies?

I feel bad for both being Hero of the Skritt and holding the Skritt Slayer achievement :’-(

Funny — I gleefully smash any skritt shiny I see!

That prisoner whipping is indeed one of the more tasteless hearts you can encounter. Nicely shows that the Iron Legion is not above cruelly forcing other charr to work and not that different from the Flame Legion in that aspect. Even if those prisoners were Flame and they ‘should get a taste of their own medicine’ as mentioned above, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Aaaand I particularly don’t enjoy the “They steal supplies, commit genocide on their village” hearts either. Fighting skritt in particular always feels like my charr is rampaging in a Kindergarten. :S

I dunno if you guys noticed, but the Charr work on a slightly different system of values and morals from humans. It’s part of why historically there’s been war between the two races. Heck, GW:EN featured this inter-racial understanding and tension as a major plot point. Whipping prisoners is tasteless to humans, but to the charr? If you don’t whip them into submission, they can be expected to kill you. It’s a strong predator-prey dynamic.

Ribos.8350:

Whipping prisoners is tasteless to humans(…)

And to put it even more blunt – it’s tasteless only in certain regions, and even in those regions it’s tasteless for a very specific kind of human. There are people who think that prisoners shouldn’t have rights after all, we all know that kind of social/political groups in our own countries. The human rights itself is a very new concept put on a very old (more than 10 000 years of known history) body of the bloodthirsty mankind.

So hammering devs because of a “tasteless” event/quest of this sort in a computer game is at least a weird idea OP. Look around, read a history book, take a newspaper in your hands – it was and still is happening all around a world. The only difference is – charrs won’t suffer because, well, they don’t exist. They’re just digits on your harddrive. Unlike other people who actually are breathing and living on this Earth.

The quest that makes me feel the worst is capturing the cute baby dolyaks and killing their mothers. I hate doing that one, mostly because I want a dolyak.

Conncept.7638:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Conncept.7638:

It’s a prison. It isn’t supposed to be enjoyable, and maybe (not really, actually a statistical fact from US social scientists observation of foreign prisons) if more real prisons were like it criminals might actually make the necessary changes to their lives to not ever go back.

While I couldn’t care less about a quest in a video game, I find it funny that you’re suggesting prisons should whip/physically abuse their inmates irl :P

You’re looking at this from an emotional standpoint, mine was from a logical one. Furthermore, what is morally correct, and more importantly who’s stance actually does and prevents more harm?

• Under your moral system
  Criminal commits assault > is caught and jailed > serves in a humane correctional facility where there is no negative reinforcement against his or her crimes > is released > 66% likely to repeat their offense > is caught and jailed > serves in the same correctional facility > is released > now even more than 66% likely to reoffend… and the percentage goes up with each return. This is the standard in the United States and most of Europe.

• Under my moral system
  Criminal commits assault > is caught and jailed > serves in a harsh prison where he or she is is treated with the same violence he or she doled out > criminal is as little as 20% likely to reoffend, maximum 30%. And the percentage goes down with each return. Those statistics are based on Japan, which has one of the most successful criminal justice systems of any industrialized country in the world.

Japan has been critiqued by Europe and the US for years for conditions in their prisons, which are principally based on very long and harsh regimens of punishment, as well as complete and utter control of the offenders life for the duration of their sentence. Yet in the US and Europe, people who suffer from crime and the ratio of criminals to non-criminals has risen continually for the last fifty years. While Japan’s crime rate has not risen for any significant amount in that same amount time.

Under your system, there is no limit to how many people can be harmed, and more is more likely than less. Under mine, on average two people are harmed, the original offender and the criminal, and no one else. What is right is what is best for the greatest amount of people, and what is wrong is not that which pricks at your sensitivities.

Two things:

1 Americans, especially African Americans, are going to be very sensitive to images of prisoners being whipped because of our history with slavery. I can totally understand why that particular mission could be seen as distasteful.

2 I’m all for harsh punishment for violent offenders, but my understanding is Japan’s prisons are equally bad for petty criminals and non-violent addicts. Also, Japan is notorious for having a justice system where you’re guilty until proven innocent, and confessions are often coerced by extreme police interrogation. Now, I don’t think America is a huge improvement since we have massive overcrowding and lots of innocent people being railroaded, but I do think that a number of European countries probably have the best balance of protecting the public while recognizing prisoners are still human and deserve at least a certain level of dignity.

Conncept.7638:

• Under your moral system
  Criminal commits assault > is caught and jailed > serves in a humane correctional facility where there is no negative reinforcement against his or her crimes > is released > 66% likely to repeat their offense > is caught and jailed > serves in the same correctional facility > is released > now even more than 66% likely to reoffend… and the percentage goes up with each return. This is the standard in the United States and most of Europe.

• Under my moral system
  Criminal commits assault > is caught and jailed > serves in a harsh prison where he or she is is treated with the same violence he or she doled out > criminal is as little as 20% likely to reoffend, maximum 30%. And the percentage goes down with each return. Those statistics are based on Japan, which has one of the most successful criminal justice systems of any industrialized country in the world.

Oh really? The US justice system is one that involves people spending 5+ years in a concrete box with murderers, rapists, etc. Brutal physical and sexual assault are a regular occurrence there. Climate control is non-existent, with temperatures in Florida prisons reaching an upwards of 120 degrees in summers (prisoners have been known to literally BAKE TO DEATH.) The cells measure 6′ × 11′ on average.

Some of these inmates get taken a step farther and put into solitary confinement, either for their own safety or as punishment. These individuals spend 23 hours a day alone in lockdown, without the possibility of contact with anyone outside of their own guards. During their 1 hour break they get a break in an outdoor, unshaded and cemented cage sizing twice the size of their cell. This can take place for as long as 25 years, at which point their minds are broken beyond repair. This same form of punishment was a torture reserved by Stalin in his Gulags for only the most heinous of criminals.

American Recidivism Rate: 60%

Norway, on the other hand, has built a prison that roughly resembles a dorm. Air conditioned and containing ample reading and research materials, these dorms house 1 inmate per cell and focus entirely on rehabilitation, NOT revenge as the US justice system does. Photos of this prison/dorm can be seen here at TIME magazine: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html

Norway Recidivism Rate: 20%

TL;DR – Science and facts, unfortunately, do not support your argument. At all.

In case that isn’t enough: Here is Yale University also disagreeing. http://faculty.som.yale.edu/keithchen/papers/final_aler07.pdf I’ll take their word over that of Rush Limbaugh any day

A few more sources…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-prison-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm

http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/13/1/103.full

http://ftp.iza.org/dp3395.pdf

Let me know if you’d like more!

Tolmos.8395:

Oh really? The US justice system is one that involves people spending 5+ years in a concrete box with murderers, rapists, etc. Brutal physical and sexual assault are a regular occurrence there. Climate control is non-existent, with temperatures in Florida prisons reaching an upwards of 120 degrees in summers (prisoners have been known to literally BAKE TO DEATH.) The cells measure 6′ × 11′ on average.

Some of these inmates get taken a step farther and put into solitary confinement, either for their own safety or as punishment. These individuals spend 23 hours a day alone in lockdown, without the possibility of contact with anyone outside of their own guards. During their 1 hour break they get a break in an outdoor, unshaded and cemented cage sizing twice the size of their cell. This can take place for as long as 25 years, at which point their minds are broken beyond repair. This same form of punishment was a torture reserved by Stalin in his Gulags for only the most heinous of criminals.

American Recidivism Rate: 60%

Norway, on the other hand, has built a prison that roughly resembles a dorm. Air conditioned and containing ample reading and research materials, these dorms house 1 inmate per cell and focus entirely on rehabilitation, NOT revenge as the US justice system does. Photos of this prison/dorm can be seen here at TIME magazine: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html

Norway Recidivism Rate: 20%

TL;DR – Science and facts, unfortunately, do not support your argument. At all.

In case that isn’t enough: Here is Yale University also disagreeing. http://faculty.som.yale.edu/keithchen/papers/final_aler07.pdf I’ll take their word over that of Rush Limbaugh any day

A few more sources…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-prison-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm

http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/13/1/103.full

http://ftp.iza.org/dp3395.pdf

Let me know if you’d like more!

Except Norway is not a fully industrialized country. It doesn’t attract criminals like Japan and the US do because it does not have the assets and it never has. Both Norways crime and it’s recidivism were better than the US’s before they built that prison. Ipso facto, from a scientific perspective, those statistics are bogus, they were made without any study control mechanism, that prison hasn’t been proven to have changed anything. And no, since every study conducted by Yale conveniently forgets such basic rules of the scientific method, their opinion isn’t worth anything and I wouldn’t take it over the crazy bum’s on the street corner. They have a political agenda to push, they will and have been ignoring any and every part of the scientific method to do so for over thirty years. Not a single one of the ‘examples’ you cited is reputable, cite a real group of real scientists next time, instead of political activists that happen to wear lab coats.

So, if you wish or are capable of proving your point, show me where this method has ever been applied in a country with assets and crime similar to the US, and what affect it has had. You can’t, because it hasn’t. Because there isn’t any doubt that it wouldn’t work. It hasn’t even had that great of an effect in the countries where it has been used, it’s just ‘conveniently’ been applied only in places where crime was already low.

And it’s incredibly deceptive how you are only providing examples you pulled from a list of the countries very worst of our countries prisons, made by a d-list internet news site no less. And conveniently leaving out the average US prison; which provides it’s inmates with better medical care, better food, and more easily accessible entertainment and amenities than we provide in our schools or to our senior citizens.

solution…..stop playing the game, lol the game is bad now anyways.

Why is this the most tasteless? There are plenty of missions where I put men/women/skritt/dredge/charr/etc. to their death in great numbers; so what’s wrong with a little whipping in comparison?

Stop trying to be offended and go and enjoy the game for what it is.

The game should revolve around choosing between good and evil decisions. And that should affect how your character develop. But unfortunately Anet thinks everyone wants to play a hero.

What are the players who want to be a anti-hero. By using tactics that are underhand or evil to achieve the quest goals.

Conncept.7638:

Tolmos.8395:

Oh really? The US justice system is one that involves people spending 5+ years in a concrete box with murderers, rapists, etc. Brutal physical and sexual assault are a regular occurrence there. Climate control is non-existent, with temperatures in Florida prisons reaching an upwards of 120 degrees in summers (prisoners have been known to literally BAKE TO DEATH.) The cells measure 6′ × 11′ on average.

Some of these inmates get taken a step farther and put into solitary confinement, either for their own safety or as punishment. These individuals spend 23 hours a day alone in lockdown, without the possibility of contact with anyone outside of their own guards. During their 1 hour break they get a break in an outdoor, unshaded and cemented cage sizing twice the size of their cell. This can take place for as long as 25 years, at which point their minds are broken beyond repair. This same form of punishment was a torture reserved by Stalin in his Gulags for only the most heinous of criminals.

American Recidivism Rate: 60%

Norway, on the other hand, has built a prison that roughly resembles a dorm. Air conditioned and containing ample reading and research materials, these dorms house 1 inmate per cell and focus entirely on rehabilitation, NOT revenge as the US justice system does. Photos of this prison/dorm can be seen here at TIME magazine: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html

Norway Recidivism Rate: 20%

TL;DR – Science and facts, unfortunately, do not support your argument. At all.

In case that isn’t enough: Here is Yale University also disagreeing. http://faculty.som.yale.edu/keithchen/papers/final_aler07.pdf I’ll take their word over that of Rush Limbaugh any day

A few more sources…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-prison-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm

http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/13/1/103.full

http://ftp.iza.org/dp3395.pdf

Let me know if you’d like more!

Except Norway is not a fully industrialized country. It doesn’t attract criminals like Japan and the US do because it does not have the assets and it never has. Both Norways crime and it’s recidivism were better than the US’s before they built that prison. Ipso facto, from a scientific perspective, those statistics are bogus, they were made without any study control mechanism, that prison hasn’t been proven to have changed anything. And no, since every study conducted by Yale conveniently forgets such basic rules of the scientific method, their opinion isn’t worth anything and I wouldn’t take it over the crazy bum’s on the street corner. They have a political agenda to push, they will and have been ignoring any and every part of the scientific method to do so for over thirty years. Not a single one of the ‘examples’ you cited is reputable, cite a real group of real scientists next time, instead of political activists that happen to wear lab coats.

So, if you wish or are capable of proving your point, show me where this method has ever been applied in a country with assets and crime similar to the US, and what affect it has had. You can’t, because it hasn’t. Because there isn’t any doubt that it wouldn’t work. It hasn’t even had that great of an effect in the countries where it has been used, it’s just ‘conveniently’ been applied only in places where crime was already low.

And it’s incredibly deceptive how you are only providing examples you pulled from a list of the countries very worst of our countries prisons, made by a d-list internet news site no less. And conveniently leaving out the average US prison; which provides it’s inmates with better medical care, better food, and more easily accessible entertainment and amenities than we provide in our schools or to our senior citizens.

lmao. This entire post can basically be summed up “Quit bringing facts into my baseless assumption post! (I sure hope no one reads those links )”

Good game, sir. Good game

As this discussion has run its course and many postings are against the rules of the forum, the thread is now closed.