The new Training and no 'reset' ability
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Are you going to address how you forced characters to train into builds using their hero points without their consent? :o
Why not. Basically there were two options, both with a large number of edge cases.
1) We wipe your stuff and let you respec as you see fit. Because so much had changed this was our initial plan. Here are problems it ran into.
- People return from a long hiatus and don’t remember what they were running
- People log in and the first thing they have to do before they can play is learn both the new unlocking system and the new build system.
2) We look at what you had equipped and unlock the necessary skills and traits to re-equip you. Here were some discussions points around that:
- We might give you stuff you don’t want
- at least this won’t matter for lvl 80s if we make all the unlocks possible by just reaching lvl 80.
There is a third option which I’m sure you will bring up.
3) let players choose
Here are some reasons we did not go with that:
- Its twice the work
- Its actually more than twice the work because it would have required temporarily saving both options until you choose which is more complex technical work.
- People who were unlikely to understand or want to explore the new system were going to be potentially more confused by the choice.
At the end of the day we wanted to ship this build so we had to decide. Based on instinct we erred on the side of helping people we thought would be more overwhelmed by the opposite choice, and I would make that choice again because it has less edge cases, impacts more expert users, and leans towards over unlocking for free to benefit most of the edge cases anyway.
Hope this info helps you understand our process a bit more.
Thanks,
Jon
Fwiw.
Yes, I was irritated, and will not forget. I deleted two mid-level characters. While I can understand the desire to cater to those who struggle with game mechanics, too much of that goes on in GW2 for my tastes.
Thank you for posting that.
As for mid level characters… I don’t even want to talk about how badly they screwed over my level 45 Ranger.
The comment on “learning the new unlocking system and the new build system” is a null argument because if they wiped us all back and made us refit, then there is no ‘unlocking’ that has to be done and we all would then know how to do the new build putting old and new players on the same footing.
As for ‘unlocking’ in general: There is also no margin for error now. one wrong push of a button, or a bad decision on how you want to specialize, and you’re stuck with what you chose and there’s no getting those hero points back.
If I have a mid level character (lets say 45th, for some unknown reason) and I spec for two ‘specialties’ , I don’t get to use a third specialty until I get to 71st level and it takes quite a few points to build up to a max point (44-60 I believe). Uh huh. This is so much better than before. No wait, that was sarcasm folks. Add in that the system is set up in a linear fashion now. By that I mean that if you want an “end” skill (let’s say ‘poison master’ for a Ranger’s Wilderness Survival) it will cost you an additional 16 hero points more than it costs you to get the first one of the ‘end’ skills (in this case: ‘empathic bond’).
Of course, they spec’d the character for me with me having no say in what I got handed…
Option 2 is also obviously a line of…
They did not “unlock the necessary skills and traits to re-equip” as otherwise I wouldn’t have to spend 60 hero points to get ‘lingering curse’ or 24 more to get the Flesh Golem back up for my Necro
As for them “helping people”… with help like this I hardly need enemies.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
My thinking exactly.
It was a decision based on practicality, even though, yes, it conveniences a portion of the player base.
But the amount of time and energy it would have cost in programming time to create something that would fix the problem is actually greater than it’s worth to the game over all. There are several reasons for this.
1. Most people don’t give a fig about or notice builds till they’re 80. They just don’t care that much. In fact, many people don’t even pay attention to builds after they’re 80.
2. Most people aren’t going to be affected by this problem. It doesn’t affect new characters. It doesn’t affect low level characters below say level 15. And if you’re up around level 60 or more, you already have most of the traits unlocked by then anyway.
So a few people WILL BE inconvenienced by this, and it’s sad that that’s the case. But it’s not going to change, nor should it.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
My thinking exactly.
Yes, showing you don’t understand the problem and don’t care really helped the discussion.
The point is, for the players who have low and mid level characters (and are keeping them at that level for whatever reason, or are slow levellers) the seemingly random way the points were put has made some characters pretty awful, with no way of changing it.
Maybe if they reset all your level 80’s, gave them three random trait lines and locked the available traits you’d get an appreciation of what the OP’s concerns are.
Sadly, doesn’t look likely that anything will be done about it so in a lot of cases new players just quietly quit, older players end up soured and decide to reroll, and others carry on in blissful ignorance.
WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
My thinking exactly.
Yes, showing you don’t understand the problem and don’t care really helped the discussion.
The point is, for the players who have low and mid level characters (and are keeping them at that level for whatever reason, or are slow levellers) the seemingly random way the points were put has made some characters pretty awful, with no way of changing it.
Maybe if they reset all your level 80’s, gave them three random trait lines and locked the available traits you’d get an appreciation of what the OP’s concerns are.
Sadly, doesn’t look likely that anything will be done about it so in a lot of cases new players just quietly quit, older players end up soured and decide to reroll, and others carry on in blissful ignorance.
Some new guys will quit, but frankly, if those people quit, they quit. People quit MMOs all the time for all sorts of reasons. You really are talking about a very very small percentage of the playerbase being affected, and if a handful of that percentage quit, let them quit.
But they’re going to quit any MMO they start, because all MMOs have these types of grown pains, one way or another. It’s part of life in MMOs. This really is just a growing pain.
1. Most people don’t give a fig about or notice builds till they’re 80. They just don’t care that much. In fact, many people don’t even pay attention to builds after they’re 80.
Really? And you’re basing this broad assumption on what evidence? I’m actually curious how/where you believe this. In the guild I’m in, everyone pays attention to and covets the skills as we unlock them. We pay attention to how they affect and help our character and (until now) definitely played around with what would help us best vs how we want to arm and play the character..
2. Most people aren’t going to be affected by this problem. It doesn’t affect new characters. It doesn’t affect low level characters below say level 15. And if you’re up around level 60 or more, you already have most of the traits unlocked by then anyway.
So a few people WILL BE inconvenienced by this, and it’s sad that that’s the case. But it’s not going to change, nor should it.
That is certainly your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t match mine. You are correct that the 15’s and below really aren’t affected too much, but I do contend that even the 60’s + are affected when the systems arbitrary assignment of what skills you have doesn’t match what you had before and now you have to build up hero points just to get back to where you were. By the way, they screwed over about kitten levels worth of characters (more than half).
1. Most people don’t give a fig about or notice builds till they’re 80. They just don’t care that much. In fact, many people don’t even pay attention to builds after they’re 80.
Really? And you’re basing this broad assumption on what evidence? I’m actually curious how/where you believe this. In the guild I’m in, everyone pays attention to and covets the skills as we unlock them. We pay attention to how they affect and help our character and (until now) definitely played around with what would help us best vs how we want to arm and play the character..
2. Most people aren’t going to be affected by this problem. It doesn’t affect new characters. It doesn’t affect low level characters below say level 15. And if you’re up around level 60 or more, you already have most of the traits unlocked by then anyway.
So a few people WILL BE inconvenienced by this, and it’s sad that that’s the case. But it’s not going to change, nor should it.
That is certainly your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t match mine. You are correct that the 15’s and below really aren’t affected too much, but I do contend that even the 60’s + are affected when the systems arbitrary assignment of what skills you have doesn’t match what you had before and now you have to build up hero points just to get back to where you were. By the way, they screwed over about kitten levels worth of characters (more than half).
Maybe someone can find the dev quote about it, but a good portion of players had never even been to the trait screen at all, never mind caring about it. Maybe someone can dig the quote up, I have no idea where it was.
choovanski.5462 and CureForLiving.5360: Congratulations on having multiple level 80’s. Some of us (trying not to make a sweeping assumption here) do not have the personal time available to accomplish that, and they and the not new, but not ‘epic’ folks who do have the mid level characters do care, seeing as how they are the ones who got massively screwed over.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
Actually, I want to address the comment on traits you “have to hunt for” as well. Granted, it was within the Guild I’m in, but hunting for those traits/skills was actually a good thing in my mind. There were two ways to get the high end ones: you could pay for them or you could go out and track them down and usually participate in a battle to get them.
This was a good thing in my mind because 1. It gave the player a choice on how to get it, and
2. “Hey guildies, I really want to get trait/skill so-and-so, y’all wanna come help me kill xxxxxx?” which actually prompted players to work with others in and their guildmates in running dungeons/big battles. You know, guilds, that word at the front of the game title.
I agree that the ship has sailed. If a Hero Point trait reset were to be implemented, some of the mid level characters impacted will have gotten more points, or (in my case, at least) been deleted. The problem will go away sooner or later without them doing anything about it, simply because getting to a high enough level resolves it, and new characters will not have it.
I also disagree with two of the OP’s contentions.
- That resets should be a baseline aspect of the system. Build respecs are fine for systems in which opportunity costs exist. However, skill/trait unlocks are not such a system. The opportunity costs exist in selecting 1, 2 or 3 lines and at tiers within the lines. Those can be respeced at will. If you can unlock everything, there is no opportunity cost to unlocking. That there is some opportunity cost to unlocks while leveling is, imo, a good thing. Anything that makes me think in a game is a good thing.
- That the recently departed trait unlock system was a good thing. The only aspect of GW2 I can remember being more reviled than traits 2.0 and its unlock aspect was the introduction of Ascended when it first hit. The unlock system made a mockery of any kind of weighing of value of various traits. Unlocking traits on multiple characters was either a massive skill/gold sink or a colossal bore. I’m delighted its gone, and if the price I had to pay was deleted mid-levels, I gladly pay it.
That said, this arbitrary auto-assignment of points has me scratching my head. The Jon Peters post I linked earlier tells us why they did it. However …
1. Most people don’t give a fig about or notice builds till they’re 80. They just don’t care that much. In fact, many people don’t even pay attention to builds after they’re 80.
… if so many people were content playing without traits before (and even after) 80, why cater to them by giving them traits? If they don’t care, why spend dev resources on them? Transferring the stat points to gear would help them be more effective without extra work by ANet and without any effort on their part.
Now, if the reason is that ANet plans to up the challenge of existing mobs in the mid-to-high leveling zones (40+, say) , that would be a reason. Ignoring traits would be more of a disadvantage if that were to happen. However, there’s no sign of any such challenge increase.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
Actually, I want to address the comment on traits you “have to hunt for” as well. Granted, it was within the Guild I’m in, but hunting for those traits/skills was actually a good thing in my mind. There were two ways to get the high end ones: you could pay for them or you could go out and track them down and usually participate in a battle to get them.
This was a good thing in my mind because 1. It gave the player a choice on how to get it, and
2. “Hey guildies, I really want to get trait/skill so-and-so, y’all wanna come help me kill xxxxxx?” which actually prompted players to work with others in and their guildmates in running dungeons/big battles. You know, guilds, that word at the front of the game title.
The trait update was one of the most reviled updates in the history of this game, along with the introduction of ascended gear. No other update came close. You may have liked the change, but you were in a very very small minority, at least on forum posts.
It was certainly the worst change in the game for me personally, but the amount of people who were enraged about it is legend.
“Play how you want.”
Unless it’s not how we want you to play.
“Play how you want” is a advertising catchphrase that any and every good designer will ignore. Its meaningless. It implies sitting in Lion’s Arch chatting should carry the same rewards as systematically harvesting high end nodes across Orr – something that never will and never should happen. Its a poorly phrased and easily misconstrued presentation of “All player character builds should offer similar impact and value in play” (not as catchy, but also not so easily misread). If you are just wanting to chat in Lion’s Arch then you can “play how you want” because all builds are roughly equal for that. If you want to harvest nodes all builds you “can play how you want” because they are roughly equal for doing that (sure, stealth builds can go a little faster on some of them).
So if you want to advance your character you can “play how you want” because all builds are roughly equal but YOU STILL HAVE TO ACTUALLY GET OUT AND DO REWARDING TASKS. Chatting in Lion’s Arch won’t get you Hero Points any more than spending a hour harvesting nodes does. You can’t do whatever and get any and every reward you want.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
And again, I’ll state what was the premise behind the original post: We got handed an arbitrary set of skills/traits based on what they interpreted as our build intent with no input from us the players and no ability for us to fix what they screwed up.
As much as people whined, moaned and complained about the last major trait update at least they had the ability to zero it out and get in a semblance of how they wanted.
2. Most people aren’t going to be affected by this problem. It doesn’t affect new characters. It doesn’t affect low level characters below say level 15. And if you’re up around level 60 or more, you already have most of the traits unlocked by then anyway.
So a few people WILL BE inconvenienced by this, and it’s sad that that’s the case. But it’s not going to change, nor should it.
That is certainly your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t match mine. You are correct that the 15’s and below really aren’t affected too much, but I do contend that even the 60’s + are affected when the systems arbitrary assignment of what skills you have doesn’t match what you had before and now you have to build up hero points just to get back to where you were. By the way, they screwed over about kitten levels worth of characters (more than half).
60+ will barely be affected simply by levelling you get every single skill and trait by 80, but if you actually out there and doing herochallenge you will have everything earlier, so by lvl 60 you should have like 90-95% of skills and traits, if not all of it, so that is not his opinions, but strait up fact. And according to a post from the dev (linked earlier in this very topic as well) they chose the solutions that affected least ppl, as there was no solution that would affect absolutely noone
Gummi: Here’s a “strait up fact” for you. A level 60+ Necro who before the change had the Scepter skill bonus (Lingering Curse) and the Flesh Golem minion and now has neither due to arbitrary reassignment. 84 hero points to get these back is not an acceptable solution. In my opinion.
It’s even less of an answer for the level 45 who after the change got handed a whomping 3 ‘extra’ hero points to spend as they wish.
Really?
So there’s a system included to hand us ‘extra’ or ‘bonus’ hero points but not to clear the slate and let us choose from them from the get go? Something smells fishy in Denmark and it’s not the herring.
(edited by Brandu.8150)
Brandu, here are a few straight up fact for you:
1. Complaining here won’t give you any hero points nor reset your character hero ability. We are here to point you to solutions to HELP you. I’m not here to discuss whether it was a “right” or “wrong” decision from my nor Anet’s standpoint.
2. Getting to level 80 gives you enough hero points to unlock every core specialization and every current utility skills.
So you have a choice, either you are going to play the game or quit.
If you quit, bye!
If you are going to keep playing, get some more levels and/or do more hero challenges and the situation will resolve it self.
who cares. all my 80s have enough points unlock everything. you get full specialisations while leveling, not just a few traits that you have to hunt for. ots much better imo.
My thinking exactly.
Yes, showing you don’t understand the problem and don’t care really helped the discussion.
The point is, for the players who have low and mid level characters (and are keeping them at that level for whatever reason, or are slow levellers) the seemingly random way the points were put has made some characters pretty awful, with no way of changing it.
Maybe if they reset all your level 80’s, gave them three random trait lines and locked the available traits you’d get an appreciation of what the OP’s concerns are.
Sadly, doesn’t look likely that anything will be done about it so in a lot of cases new players just quietly quit, older players end up soured and decide to reroll, and others carry on in blissful ignorance.
choovanski.5462 and CureForLiving.5360: Congratulations on having multiple level 80’s. Some of us (trying not to make a sweeping assumption here) do not have the personal time available to accomplish that, and they and the not new, but not ‘epic’ folks who do have the mid level characters do care, seeing as how they are the ones who got massively screwed over.
Actually wanted to give a proper response, but… well with such a sunny disposition on your part… Just stop sulking and go level your character. When you hit 80 this is no longer an issue at all.
Yes, I was irritated, and will not forget. I deleted two mid-level characters. While I can understand the desire to cater to those who struggle with game mechanics, too much of that goes on in GW2 for my tastes.
You deleted two mid-level characters over a negligible loss in power for a negligible amount of levels?
Ever thought that maybe you’re a bit touchy about this whole thing? Not everyone is made of brittle glass and falls apart the moment someone changes something. Even if the new system gives you stuff you didn’t want, the difference during leveling (the only time where this can happen) is so trivial that there’s a very good chance that if you never open the spec screen, you’d never notice.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Traits are completely unnecessary before you hit level 80. A few traits are nice and all but it really doesn’t affect gameplay at lower levels. If you are struggling to play effectively workout traits before max level, you need to buy better armor and weapons that address close to your level.
The pregame (before max level) is easy mode as long as your gear isn’t underleveled.
For those that enjoyed going out and doing disparate tasks to earn Traits before, I would think they would enjoy going out and doing Hero Challenges to obtain Hero Points to spend on Traits now.
Seems like the same kind of thing…at least, to me.
And, just as there are Guilds full of people who are adamant about their Traits, there are (mine, lol) Guilds full of people who never really pay much attention to Traits. It’s just not their ‘thing’.
All kinds of people play this game; I have no idea which group outweighs the other, but I’m just guessing ArenaNet does. /shrug
Good luck.
While I understand the new system inconveiences people who are leveling, let’s objectively look at this in level ranges for when the patch hit:
- level 1-15 : not affected really.
- level 16-31: slightly affected, didn’t have that much hero points to begin with. WIll clear up by the time you hit 40-50. Not being able to get the elite you want is likely the worst aspect here.
- level 32- 45: probably the worst off since you are right in the middle of the leveling process. Hard times, agreed. Not having the 2 trait lines you want will be the biggest gripe.
- level 46-59: not as bad off as the earlier tier since you likely got some useful things unlocked unless you’ve been really unlucky. Still the 2nd tier from getting screwed over wise.
- level 60-79: serisouly? you are probably 5-10 hours from hitting 80 away anyway. Inconvenience, sure. Gamebreaking? No. Also the high amount of hero points gained the last few levels allows for corrections.
- level 80: non issue.
As mentioned, this is a problem that will correct itsself over time. I find people funny who delet mid level characters over this. The time you lose to relevel could have been spent finishing your toon and getting the skills/traits you want. To each his own I guess. Gaining skills/traits at low levels does take a lot longer compared to the old skill system though. Seems a lot of people miss that point.
Yes, I was irritated, and will not forget. I deleted two mid-level characters. While I can understand the desire to cater to those who struggle with game mechanics, too much of that goes on in GW2 for my tastes.
You deleted two mid-level characters over a negligible loss in power for a negligible amount of levels?
Ever thought that maybe you’re a bit touchy about this whole thing? Not everyone is made of brittle glass and falls apart the moment someone changes something. Even if the new system gives you stuff you didn’t want, the difference during leveling (the only time where this can happen) is so trivial that there’s a very good chance that if you never open the spec screen, you’d never notice.
A bit touchy? Nope. Brittle glass? Thanks for the attempt at dismissal. While condescension is an often-used tactic on forums, it’s a weak attempt at making an argument. Your other points had merit enough on their own.
I enjoy leveling. I don’t often take leveling shortcuts. It may astound you that any vet might actually care about leveling or enjoy it. But I do. I also enjoy choice. I enjoy being given choices and making them, allowing for the opportunity costs. That’s about all that’s left for me to enjoy in GW2. I’ve done everything else about as much as I care to.
We were given a new system that offered choice. Then the choice was taken away from some characters. The time taken to regain the 60 squandered points might be negligible to you. It would not be negligible to me. I would not have enjoyed playing for one level with those choices, never mind how long it would actually take. Thus, I took the more palatable option.
Brandu, here are a few straight up fact for you:
1. Complaining here won’t give you any hero points nor reset your character hero ability. We are here to point you to solutions to HELP you. I’m not here to discuss whether it was a “right” or “wrong” decision from my nor Anet’s standpoint.
2. Getting to level 80 gives you enough hero points to unlock every core specialization and every current utility skills.So you have a choice, either you are going to play the game or quit.
If you quit, bye!
If you are going to keep playing, get some more levels and/or do more hero challenges and the situation will resolve it self.
Stars, thank you for jumping in with your observations. If you have something valid to add to the conversation please chime in.
I am here to address the wrongness that Anet did to quite a few people, isn’t that what these forums are here for? To allow an adult conversation concerning the good (and bad) points of the game and the system?
(edited by Brandu.8150)
choovanski.5462 and CureForLiving.5360: Congratulations on having multiple level 80’s. Some of us (trying not to make a sweeping assumption here) do not have the personal time available to accomplish that, and they and the not new, but not ‘epic’ folks who do have the mid level characters do care, seeing as how they are the ones who got massively screwed over.
CureForLiving.5360 wrote:
Actually wanted to give a proper response, but… well with such a sunny disposition on your part… Just stop sulking and go level your character. When you hit 80 this is no longer an issue at all. [/quote]
Me:
Were you actually going to respond to what I posted or to what someone else posted.? What I posted is above. Honestly, looking at your first post that was in no way a proper response, I thought you were just trolling.
It’s a one-time issue only for people who had mid-level characters at the time of launch.
- I agree ANet should not have been paternalistic and let us choose whether we wanted to spend those points.
- I disagree that it matters for anyone other that a substantial subset of veterans; not every veteran cared (for a variety of reasons).
- I also think it won’t matter to anyone at all in six months (other than some of us feeling that ANet goofed on this).
Accordingly, I wish that ANet allows everyone a one-time option to reset their points and allocate them to better suit their mid-level characters. However, I hope that they don’t: I think there are more important things on which the developers should spend their limited time.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Absolutely should have a reset ability to training. How this wasn’t included was being quite thoughtless of Anet.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
“Play how you want.”
Unless it’s not how we want you to play.
I have the feeling that ANet are really, really sorry now that they ever came up with the slogan “Play how you want”. These days, it’s basically a club that dissatisfied players use to beat the company over the head with every time they do something that said players don’t like.
Gummi: Here’s a “strait up fact” for you. A level 60+ Necro who before the change had the Scepter skill bonus (Lingering Curse) and the Flesh Golem minion and now has neither due to arbitrary reassignment. 84 hero points to get these back is not an acceptable solution. In my opinion.
It’s even less of an answer for the level 45 who after the change got handed a whomping 3 ‘extra’ hero points to spend as they wish.
Really?
So there’s a system included to hand us ‘extra’ or ‘bonus’ hero points but not to clear the slate and let us choose from them from the get go? Something smells fishy in Denmark and it’s not the herring.
Fishy? What are you talking about. There has never been a way to refund skills once you buy them or even traits if you were buying them. You could change what you’re using after you’ve unlocked them, but there’s never been a way in this game to refund trait points after they’re spent, or skill points for skills. It never existed. The only thing fishy here is people’s memories.
If it’s not your first character, and you have 80s, play your 80s, get some level up tomes and level up some. Leave the character you’re leveling on hold. This is even faster if you PvP btw.
Fishy? What are you talking about. There has never been a way to refund skills once you buy them or even traits if you were buying them. You could change what you’re using after you’ve unlocked them, but there’s never been a way in this game to refund trait points after they’re spent, or skill points for skills. It never existed. The only thing fishy here is people’s memories.
Not a refund per se, the last time that Anet did a massive change they zero’d out (as in reset) the skills. But this time it was to difficult? That is was I was referring to.
And my level 45 Ranger has 3 ‘banked’ (or additional, or available) points left for me to spend, so that part of my statement is still valid.
The slate should have been wiped clean and then everyone would have to learn how to put the points in and how the system works. But that’s just my opinion.
Let me ask you: Do you have any mid level characters? If so, how were they affected and to what extent?
(edited by Brandu.8150)
Something smells fishy in Denmark and it’s not the herring.
sniffs Nope I dont smell anything fishy, sure its not you that got dinner in the oven?
Fishy? What are you talking about. There has never been a way to refund skills once you buy them or even traits if you were buying them. You could change what you’re using after you’ve unlocked them, but there’s never been a way in this game to refund trait points after they’re spent, or skill points for skills. It never existed. The only thing fishy here is people’s memories.
Not a refund per se, the last time that Anet did a massive change they zero’d out (as in reset) the skills. But this time it was to difficult?
That is was I was referring to.
No, but I’ll tell you something. The last time Anet did a massive change, people ran around without builds on some characters without even realizing it for weeks. This even happened to me. I have a lot of characters.
One day I’m in a dungeon and I’m not doing that well at all. Never even occurred to me that I had no trait points deployed. The fact is, it’s easier for someone who knows the game to play with a thrown together build, than it is for someone who doesn’t really get the game completely to play with no build.
If I ran around with characters with no builds at all (and I know people in my guild did the same), then what are the odds we’re the only one.
It is a problem, it’s just not your problem. The question is, how many people had this problem last time.
Well Anet doesn’t know it’s a problem unless people say so. Too many people just shrug and say “That’s Anet, you expect different?” and some just quit in disgust as some did on the last skill/traits nightmare. The thing is, I like GW2 but I don’t like how some things are happening. If me trying to make valid arguments makes even one dev in the future take an extra minute to think something through then maybe that’s a good thing.
It’s a one-time issue only for people who had mid-level characters at the time of launch.
- I agree ANet should not have been paternalistic and let us choose whether we wanted to spend those points.
- I disagree that it matters for anyone other that a substantial subset of veterans; not every veteran cared (for a variety of reasons).
- I also think it won’t matter to anyone at all in six months (other than some of us feeling that ANet goofed on this).
Accordingly, I wish that ANet allows everyone a one-time option to reset their points and allocate them to better suit their mid-level characters. However, I hope that they don’t: I think there are more important things on which the developers should spend their limited time.
Well said. As much as I dislike what happened, I’m saying something about it so they might think twice the next time they face a decision to take options away from players. This one is water over the dam, even though it tasted like sewage to some.
While I understand the new system inconveiences people who are leveling, let’s objectively look at this in level ranges for when the patch hit:
- level 1-15 : not affected really.
- level 16-31: slightly affected, didn’t have that much hero points to begin with. WIll clear up by the time you hit 40-50. Not being able to get the elite you want is likely the worst aspect here.
-.
Let me clear that up for you. At level 20+ you are locked into a trait line that you did not want, and that you cannot change or unlock another until level 31 (or is it 41?), along with a random bunch of unlocks that you also weren’t aiming for. Even then, you are a whole traitline behind until the system catches up with you at 80.
You cannot change these until you hit 80.
If you play guard or warrior you probably won’t notice (spam 1’rs generally don’t) but for the squishier classes being locked out of the trait line you actually wanted for your character for your playstyle isn’t so much fun.
Also, bear in mind not everyone power levels their toons to 80 using swaps in dungeons or whatever dodgy way is now the norm.
Still, they made the decision based on what was easiest for them rather than what players might actually want (you know, things like ‘choice’ or ‘build diversity’) and they won’t bother offering anyone affected any chance to repair their toons.
WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.
Hmm…I changed my traitlines on characters that were not L80. My client must be bugged.
Oh well, would not be the first time.
Now my Elementalist is fully specced out on Earth and no fire…
This makes it harder to level up
While I understand the new system inconveiences people who are leveling, let’s objectively look at this in level ranges for when the patch hit:
- level 1-15 : not affected really.
- level 16-31: slightly affected, didn’t have that much hero points to begin with. WIll clear up by the time you hit 40-50. Not being able to get the elite you want is likely the worst aspect here.
-.
Let me clear that up for you. At level 20+ you are locked into a trait line that you did not want, and that you cannot change or unlock another until level 31 (or is it 41?), along with a random bunch of unlocks that you also weren’t aiming for. Even then, you are a whole traitline behind until the system catches up with you at 80.
You cannot change these until you hit 80.
If you play guard or warrior you probably won’t notice (spam 1’rs generally don’t) but for the squishier classes being locked out of the trait line you actually wanted for your character for your playstyle isn’t so much fun.
Also, bear in mind not everyone power levels their toons to 80 using swaps in dungeons or whatever dodgy way is now the norm.
Still, they made the decision based on what was easiest for them rather than what players might actually want (you know, things like ‘choice’ or ‘build diversity’) and they won’t bother offering anyone affected any chance to repair their toons.
Incorrect. You are not “locked out of anything”. You might have gotten traits bought that you did not want to use, yes.
Solution, buy traits in a line you want to use and change the specialization. And no, you are not a full trait line behind since you do not have the hero points to buy an entire trait line in those level ranges. Unless you got every single Hero point in the starter areas and ignored almost every thing else, otherwise you’d be higher level with more skills.
I just finished leveling another twink to 80 from 1 with the new system. Stop trolling, it’s not that big of a deal.
The only argument, and a fair one, is from people who enjoy the process of leveling so much that it’s borderline OCD. In wich case deleting and restarting is a solution.
You are literally taking a fly and turning it into an elephant. I can’t help but imagine, if you had spent all this time arguing on the forums instead on fixing your characters and playing them, you’d have been able to get past this problem.
EDIT: just for referance, here is the list of gain per level https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Level_rewards
You get exactly 60 Hero points by level 30. That is by far not enough to buy all the traits in a class trait line (most cost 60-80). This would require to not get ANY skills at all, which is highly unlikely.
The next 10 levels provide 46 Hero points (31-40) so by mid 40s you’ll have recovered the amount of missplaced hero points. Notice how the gain of hp increases as you keep leveling (as was mentioned by me).
I stand by what I said, the biggest impact would be not getting the desired elite at 31, which is unfortunate, but not game breaking.
(edited by Cyninja.2954)
Also, bear in mind not everyone power levels their toons to 80 using swaps in dungeons or whatever dodgy way is now the norm.
Not sure if serious. Are you really pulling the “you are not playing the game right” card in a game where:
- day 1 crafting allowed to hit 80 within 3-4 hours
- instant level 20 and level up tomes are provided a plenty
- leveling via Edge of the Mists is very fast
- experience is basically thrown at you for just walking around (I went and hit level 17 with a character in the past by only exploring the starter areas without having to kill even 1 mob)
And no, you are not a full trait line behind since you do not have the hero points to buy an entire trait line in those level ranges. Unless you got every single Hero point in the starter areas and ignored almost every thing else, otherwise you’d be higher level with more skills.
Let’s see… my L21 Ele apparently had 69 Hero Points. These were used to unlock 4 points worth of cantrips and 5 points worth of signets, as well as 60 points for the entire Earth Line, with nothing left over. Since only 32 were gained via leveling, I’ve no idea where the other 37 came from.
I’d completed QDale, did the skill points in WFarer while gaining a level and maybe half of Kessex. That would account for 20, but only if I’d done all of Kessex — so maybe 18 were earned that way. That still leaves 19 points unaccounted for.
What I’m wondering is whether I used skill scrolls. I don’t normally use such while leveling. However, I seem to remember being irritated that Signet of Air was behind a significant barrier (i.e., in the 6 points per skill tier) and I wanted the speed boost. It’s possible I used scrolls as soon as I got a skill slot for that reason.
yes the way the screwed most of our builds is down right a big problem for most. if they said they put our traits closest to our current builds then why should i have to use hero points to open up traits when i had them all opened in the first place. why do i have to build new ascended armor and weapons because traits i liked and used are now gone. why do they keep taking away the good qualities of the game like their quote"play your way", the complete personal story, new makes no since. our traits we used to create our personal builds. they need to quit making players start over and spend all their gold and time with unwanted changes. yes its a way to get us to throw more hard earned cash at the tp to buy more gold, but this time I’m not…..I’m done . i log in daily hoping for change but till i see it that’s it i will not spend anymore cash on a game that is self destructing and being made into guild wars for dummies.that’s the saddest part i have played for 10 years and these last couple of mistakes, announcement of HOT, and screwing most builds is causing a lot of the loyal and new players to leave how sad. one day i hope they get it .
yes the way the screwed most of our builds is down right a big problem for most. if they said they put our traits closest to our current builds then why should i have to use hero points to open up traits when i had them all opened in the first place. why do i have to build new ascended armor and weapons because traits i liked and used are now gone. why do they keep taking away the good qualities of the game like their quote"play your way", the complete personal story, new makes no since. our traits we used to create our personal builds. they need to quit making players start over and spend all their gold and time with unwanted changes. yes its a way to get us to throw more hard earned cash at the tp to buy more gold, but this time I’m not…..I’m done . i log in daily hoping for change but till i see it that’s it i will not spend anymore cash on a game that is self destructing and being made into guild wars for dummies.that’s the saddest part i have played for 10 years and these last couple of mistakes, announcement of HOT, and screwing most builds is causing a lot of the loyal and new players to leave how sad. one day i hope they get it .
You certainly shouldn’t have to build new ascended armor and weapons, since you can now convert the stats on existing armor and weapons for a pretty cheap price.
Now my Elementalist is fully specced out on Earth and no fire…
This makes it harder to level up
This, this, so many times this.
Why so many complaints about it? My least played character has 25% map completion, and I unlock every skill and trait already.
It was a decision based on practicality, even though, yes, it conveniences a portion of the player base.
But the amount of time and energy it would have cost in programming time to create something that would fix the problem is actually greater than it’s worth to the game over all. There are several reasons for this.
1. Most people don’t give a fig about or notice builds till they’re 80. They just don’t care that much. In fact, many people don’t even pay attention to builds after they’re 80.
2. Most people aren’t going to be affected by this problem. It doesn’t affect new characters. It doesn’t affect low level characters below say level 15. And if you’re up around level 60 or more, you already have most of the traits unlocked by then anyway.
So a few people WILL BE inconvenienced by this, and it’s sad that that’s the case. But it’s not going to change, nor should it.
Pretty much this. Besides, you can level completely traitless to 80 and do fine. Especially now that the stats have been moved from traitlines to baseline + armor.
I can understand the frustration but it was a good decision to make given limited development resources, and the inconvenience is both temporary and slight.
End of the Dream by Evanescence
unofficial theme song of the Nightmare Court
unofficial theme song of the Nightmare Court
(edited by GreyWraith.8394)
It was a decision based on practicality, even though, yes, it conveniences a portion of the player base.
But the amount of time and energy it would have cost in programming time to create something that would fix the problem is actually greater than it’s worth to the game over all.
And yet it would have taken less programming time and energy to reset characters to zero than to program a system that looks at existing choices and then assigns a random selection that may or may not have any connection to those existing choices.
After all, the reset option already existed. All that would have been needed was a pop up directing people to rebuild.
The whole, “it would have taken more programming,” argument falls apart for the simple FACT that what people have asjed for would have taken LESS programming than what was done.
Maybe it would have, maybe it would not have.
Maybe the time saved in CS responses was considered. Maybe the rage-quit possibilities were taken into account. Maybe the forums had some influence on what was chosen.
I don’t know. Maybe the big picture was considered. Maybe not. /shrug
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