The player journey

The player journey

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

I’m writing in response to a post made in another thread:

Zeldain.5710
That’s assuming players enojoy the activities involved in playing the game. Most do not.

There’s a LOT of talk of and from people who have stopped playing GW2. Few people seem to accept that this is OK!. Those people have learned all they personally need to learn from it. Let me explain what I am trying to say here.

When I talk about “learning” here I don’t mean “great big life-relevant axioms”, and I don’t exclude it. I also don’t mean “employable skills”, “encyclopaedic facts”, or even “fine motor skills”, but it means these, too. By learning I mean all of these, any of them, or just one of them; learning is whatever is acquired by the person.

So it’s not a shame for either the players or the designers when a player stops playing a game as it generally symbolises that the player has reached their own personal fill on what they can acquire. In fact, for designers this can be a source of pride that players have made gains from their creation (though some might lament that the player didn’t see all the content). It is really only for each player themselves to answer the question “Did I learn this game too soon/late?”.

Or really, “How long did I hope to take to learn this game?”.

I believe there is a large amount of angst in the game community targeted at game makers because players are learning games faster than before. But really, when players honestly acknowledge for themselves all that they have learned about games, MMOs, RPGs, etc up until now there is little surprise that players have much higher expectations (read, very different things to learn) than they used to in years gone by.

I may be wrong in assuming that many players, especially those posting on the forums, have over 5 years experience and learning under their belts already. That’s really quite significant mastery for the player-base, and the game industry is struggling (in my view) to design games or “learning” that matches their mastery. How many other things have you actively pursued in your life as long as this? Most of us would probably count the number these persistent pursuits on one hand.

So now we have large numbers of players moving periodically from MMO to MMO looking for a game that teaches something they haven’t mastered yet.

GW2 has attracted and retained many players who are still learning and having fun from the content.

It has also gone through the roll-over of players who feel they have already mastered these skills and are still seeking a new lesson. Those players will have drifted on as they were likely doing before this game was released.

Some players are holding on to GW2 because they hoped to be learning as much new lessons as they first did when playing GW1 (or <favourite MMO here>), and they want this game to replicate that previous learning journey. Unfortunately it can’t do that because the player is forever changed from what they learned from GW1 and other games.

Most people are probably moving between these three states as times change, new content and hopes are created, and the player still tries to find either content within a game or an entire game that matches their own stage and make-up of skills, knowledge, and desires.

Arenanet made some great gains in learning from the experiences of players as players and designers went through the “infancy” of MMORPGs. They have designed a game around players that have already learned what other MMOs taught them and tried to see how to mould some content around some things these “adolescent MMO players” hadn’t learned yet. They have also used a lot of devices and methods that are already familiar to many of us.

If GW2 leapt too far from what we were capable of it would lose many of us down the crevasse between skill acquired and skill required (i.e., not be too hard for most). But it also has redesigned some of the fundamentals of GW1 and MMOs generally so that it gives many players something new to learn and understand (i.e., not too easy for most).

As players and adults we are responsible for our own learning journeys. If we find we have learned all we need from a source then it falls to ourselves to make the decisions and pathways towards teachers and experiences that match our own position and place in that journey.

People vary.

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Posted by: Raine.1394

Raine.1394

OP, I don’t believe we learn and attain mastery in order to move on. We learn, if anything, in order to then employ that mastery. So, I don’t think that people who leave have learned the lessons the game had for them.

Games meet a variety ‘needs’, that’s why we play them. It might be fantasy, we would really like to be that hero that saves the day and we know IRL that probably isn’t going to happen. So we make-believe. It might be abnegation; I might just be burned out and want to smash a few monsters mindlessly. These are the kinds of needs that games fulfill. Most game genres fill a niche among all the reasons people game. MMO’s address a broad category of gamers and seek to have many things going on in the game to meet peoples ever changing desires for entertainment. And, the MMO life-span is measured in years. If people leave in weeks or within a few months then, most likely, something about the way the game was conceived failed to meet the needs for which they bought the game. Or, perhaps the game just didn’t live up to their expectations or hopes. I pretty sure that games don’t teach lessons or participate in learning journeys. It’s entertainment and it either entertains or fails to.

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

OP, I don’t believe we learn and attain mastery in order to move on. We learn, if anything, in order to then employ that mastery. So, I don’t think that people who leave have learned the lessons the game had for them.

Games meet a variety ‘needs’, that’s why we play them. It might be fantasy, we would really like to be that hero that saves the day and we know IRL that probably isn’t going to happen. So we make-believe. It might be abnegation; I might just be burned out and want to smash a few monsters mindlessly. These are the kinds of needs that games fulfill. Most game genres fill a niche among all the reasons people game. MMO’s address a broad category of gamers and seek to have many things going on in the game to meet peoples ever changing desires for entertainment. And, the MMO life-span is measured in years. If people leave in weeks or within a few months then, most likely, something about the way the game was conceived failed to meet the needs for which they bought the game. Or, perhaps the game just didn’t live up to their expectations or hopes. I pretty sure that games don’t teach lessons or participate in learning journeys. It’s entertainment and it either entertains or fails to.

Yes, I totally agree with what you say about many different “needs” or motivations that bring people to games. Lately I’ve adored Nick Yee’s summary from his research:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001298.php?page=4
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/cpb.2006.9.772

There’s plenty of reasons that people come to games. I’m not suggesting this mastery principle is an overt or conscious process, but I tend to follow Raph Koster’s “Theory of Fun” in that fun is happening while learning is occurring. When all the learning curves off (including what we gain after applying previously learned stuff, so effectively the end of the chain of learning), then our experience of fun curves off, too. People may still be otherwise motivated to continue playing, but the draw card of fun that is experienced now (rather than hoped for) weighs much less heavily.

Where did you get that “Most” people do not enjoy GW2? Out of Your kitten

PearlGore, if you are referring to the quote I provided Zeldain, then I agree with you, and is kinda the topic of this discussion.
If it was something I said, which part are you referring to?

Attachments:

People vary.

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Posted by: projectcedric.6951

projectcedric.6951

The point is that most of this negativity only happens in forums.

Whenever I feel like there’s something I’m not satisfied with the game, my first tendency is also to complain or rage in the forums (rather than stop playing, ironically).

But considerably, the population in-game just seems to be like a completely different population from the people lingering around here.

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Posted by: krs.7520

krs.7520

The point is that most of this negativity only happens in forums.

Whenever I feel like there’s something I’m not satisfied with the game, my first tendency is also to complain or rage in the forums (rather than stop playing, ironically).

But considerably, the population in-game just seems to be like a completely different population from the people lingering around here.

Yeah, you dont go to a protest march to poll public opinion, those that are happy with the state of being will not be there.

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Posted by: Ned Stark.9356

Ned Stark.9356

In all honesty GW2 is a knock off of Rift just set in the Guild Wars setting.

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

In all honesty GW2 is a knock off of Rift just set in the Guild Wars setting.

Only that GW2 development started much earlier than Rift, and Rift was rushed with publicizing so nobody could say they nicked dynamic event concept from gw2. And suuuureeee they didnt.

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Posted by: Ned Stark.9356

Ned Stark.9356

If you have some prove to backup that conjecture I would love to see it. Besides there really isn’t a single innovation in this game like we’ve heard so many claims about.

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Posted by: Joote.4081

Joote.4081

Mostly I haven’t got a clue as to what most of my skills, traits and boons do. I don’t have a clue about game mechanics, combo’s and all of the other what-not.

But I still enjoy playing.

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

If you have some prove to backup that conjecture I would love to see it. Besides there really isn’t a single innovation in this game like we’ve heard so many claims about.

Dont take my word for it. Just compare development time of both. Just by coincidence i was still playing gw1 when anet announced work on sequel. That was some 7 or 8 years ago i think. There was no mention of Rift even as an idea at that time and years passed before project Rift was even announced.
Dont expect me to dig egzact dates just because you dont beleve me, do some research.

And there are alot of inovations, if you cant see them then im sorry for you.

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Posted by: Groovy.6749

Groovy.6749

OP while you are raising very interesting and dare I say philosophical questions about how we perceive games and engage with them, the underlying denominator of all this is the difficult subject of “fun”.

Since “fun” is extremely biased and even more challenging to disect, I think the discussion at hand is ultimately going to circulate around one question : “how long can I keep doing this before getting bored?”.

And I believe the answer to this will be different for everyone of us.

Also if you permit me to midly psycho-analyze you, it seems you get a lot of your personal fun from learning and overcoming challenges :p

Which is perfectly fine !

edit: typo

(edited by Groovy.6749)

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Posted by: Ranlea.8270

Ranlea.8270

What I like about GW2 is the ability to pop in and out of the game, and to be able to play casually without thinking my gear is going to be hopelessly useless in “X” duration of time hence

I do accept that some players came from WoW/Everquest/Rift etc expecting a type of progression together with high end co-ordinated PvE (Raids or Raid type) and seem to be disappointed. That is a commercial issue for Gw2 game designers to re review.

Another comment is that MMO games are commonplace now, a few years ago truly viable larger community MMO games were perhaps limited to 3 (WoW Everquest 1 and 2) and maybe Eve) hence what was new and exciting is now no longer quite the same. If a game is not absolutely “right” for someone and/or what their peer group are playing, they write off the initial money and depart

Why be angry and disappointed in something that is supposed to be a leisure fun activity

As for me I am fine with the game so far

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Posted by: Zeldain.5710

Zeldain.5710

In all honesty GW2 is a knock off of Rift just set in the Guild Wars setting.

Only that GW2 development started much earlier than Rift, and Rift was rushed with publicizing so nobody could say they nicked dynamic event concept from gw2. And suuuureeee they didnt.

You sir, are delusional.

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

In all honesty GW2 is a knock off of Rift just set in the Guild Wars setting.

Only that GW2 development started much earlier than Rift, and Rift was rushed with publicizing so nobody could say they nicked dynamic event concept from gw2. And suuuureeee they didnt.

You sir, are delusional.

If random internet guy says so then it must be truth.

Besides, can you back up your claims with anything or you just like to troll?

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Posted by: Zeldain.5710

Zeldain.5710

In all honesty GW2 is a knock off of Rift just set in the Guild Wars setting.

Only that GW2 development started much earlier than Rift, and Rift was rushed with publicizing so nobody could say they nicked dynamic event concept from gw2. And suuuureeee they didnt.

You sir, are delusional.

If random internet guy says so then it must be truth.

Besides, can you back up your claims with anything or you just like to troll?

Doesn’t matter. RIFT came out WELL OVER A YEAR before Guild Wars 2… GW2 lays no claim to dynamic content. RIFT beat them, period.

If anything, GW2 had a chance to take cues from RIFT.

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

FacesofMu, great post, thank you. I agree, the relationship between game developer and game consumer is not unique in the business world. I think you describe most people’s relationship with the music industry.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

OP while you are raising very interesting and dare I say philosophical questions about how we perceive games and engage with them, the underlying denominator of all this is the difficult subject of “fun”.

Since “fun” is extremely biased and even more challenging to disect, I think the discussion at hand is ultimately going to circulate around one question : “how long can I keep doing this before getting bored?”.

And I believe the answer to this will

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to the topic!

And yea, I’m interested taking the idea of fun being something intrinsic to an object, and turn the attention to the relationship between the players over the object. To do that means wondering where players have come from individually and as a group so as to understand what they will take away from the game in each transaction.

Individually players come from many different prior games, both MMO and not, and I suspect this is a pretty powerful factor in what they will experience in each game they come to afterwards.
In this I talk about what skills and knowledges they’ve acquired before and what they get from this game. Things like intuiting skill combinations and sequences, figuring out what’s best to open a fight with, choosing which stats are valuable to them, being able to co-ordinate eyes and hands between screen, keyboard, and mouse, distinguishing roles and what it is like to influence the fights of other players or be influenced by them, etc etc etc.
These lessons aren’t happening through tutorials, they’re most often happening through intuitive user interfaces that are built on years upon years of human factors engineering and development.

As a group of players who have often experienced interfaces, values, roles, and power strategies in other games we can come together in this game with some common skills and knowledge about how games work across multiple levels. Our individual differences define what is fun to each of us (what skills have I learned to apply here to solve these problems that makes me feel good?), but where we have come from as a group probably shapes much of what the designers create for us.

People vary.

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

Whether they’ve succeeded or not in implementing their goals, the ArenaNet Dev team were able to clearly verbalise the things we’ve experienced and learned as a group from other games and talked clearly about moving forward from these experiences.
For example:


“You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching”
- “It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.”
- “When you play an RPG, you want to experience a compelling and memorable storyline. You want your choices to matter. You want your actions to leave their mark on the world. Let’s start demanding those things of MMOs too.”
- "Some games mostly tell story through quest text. But we’ve all clicked so many exclamation points and accepted so many quests in our lives that we’re pretty immune to quest text at this point. "
- "another hallmark of great RPGs is that they create a world that feels real and alive. Let’s say a village is being terrorized by bandits. You don’t want to find out about that because there’s a villager standing there motionless with an exclamation mark over his head who says when you click on him, “Help, we’re being terrorized by bandits.” You want to find out like you would in GW2: because the bandits are attacking, chasing villagers through the streets, slaying them and setting their houses on fire. You can stand up for the villagers, or you can watch their village burn to the ground and then deal with the consequences. "
- “MMOs are social games. So why do they sometimes seem to work so hard to punish you for playing with other players? If I’m out hunting and another player walks by, shouldn’t I welcome his help, rather than worrying that he’s going to steal my kills or consume all the mobs I wanted to kill? Or if I want to play with someone, shouldn’t we naturally have the same goals and objectives, rather than discovering that we’re in the same area but working on a different set of quests?”
- “With traditional MMOs you can choose to solo or you can find a good guild or party to play with. With GW2 there’s a third option too: you can just naturally play with all the people around you.”
- “So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral.”

I give these quotes not to argue or discuss whether they were implemented or how well there were/were not put in the game, but to make a point that the developers were paying attention to where many of us were coming from, what skills and knowledge we may share, and what would impact on what would be fun for us now rather than what was fun when we were learning these things new.

On the forums we have many players trying to communicate what has been fun for them (what they’ve learned already and enjoyed doing so). Some parts of what they say speaks for us as a group based on shared lessons, and most of what is said is about some core things they want to relive or enhance from their own journey. But there’s still an unanswered personal question for themselves, “how long can I keep doing this before getting bored?”.

I posit that if the games are not offering as much to learn now as they did when we were newbs to MMOs and we had this whole realm of gaming to experience and understand, then generally people will feel greater disappointment as each game released within it’s generation has less for us to learn. This isn’t to say we don’t have a lot of fun and cherish some fantastic minutes, hours, or days of playing pleasure. We are just growing up.

People vary.

(edited by FacesOfMu.3561)

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

…….I posit that if the games are not offering as much to learn now as they did when we were newbs to MMOs and we had this whole realm of gaming to experience and understand, then generally people will feel greater disappointment as each game released within it’s generation has less for us to learn. This isn’t to say we don’t have a lot of fun and cherish some fantastic minutes, hours, or days of playing pleasure. We are just growing up.

While the increased maturity level of the player does affect what we take/learn from an mmo, it also affects what players bring to an mmo. You could easily expand your metaphor of education to describe an mmo world as a school and the players as matriculating students. Have no doubt that a concurrent player base is as indispensable to the business success of an mmo as enrolled students are to an institution of higher learning. Sounds obvious at first glance, but when we look closer at the metaphor, we start to see overlaps. Consider the dynamic of legacy enrollment at colleges and universities. Parents that attended the University of Skinner are now deciding where to send their children. Under that intense scrutiny, a mmo offering a curriculum that can be put down without causing a student anxiety shines. As students we need to appreciate the paradox that forces upon a developer.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

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Posted by: Roven Leafsong.8917

Roven Leafsong.8917

What a thought-provoking and well-argued topic.

I agree that when there is nothing left to learn that is of value to us (or put another way, no rewarding challenges left to overcome) we move on, and that’s a good, healthy thing.

Where I’m not sure that I agree is that the reason players move on from a new game very quickly after release is primarily related to the extent of their previous MMO experience. It might be a factor, sure, but I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘genre burnout’.

I can only draw on my own experience, but I would say it’s the nature of the lessons or challenges that draws me in. I was excited by creating a unique character with a journey of my choosing in GW2, in finding my own niche and learning how I could become a connected part of a living, dynamic world. Honestly, I feel like I had grokked most of what was available in that vein by about level 20. Like so many other multiplayer online games, the majority of GW2’s challenges focus on developing player skill and reactions, on theory-crafting for optimal damage, and for investing time/wealth to improve combat effectiveness through items, levels, and so on. There’s nothing wrong with that – it has proved a highly enjoyable and attractive combination in numerous past iterations. That’s not a universal MMORPG formula though, it simply happens to be a common design decision in recent years.

I wonder if we need to start using better terminology for games. The lineage that includes EQ, WoW, Rift, GW2 and so on should really be given its own sub-genre of massively-multiplayer online, separate to gameplay that is completely different like EVE, Wurm (and hopefully other persistent worlds that I can’t think of right now). I know we have themepark and sandbox, but I don’t think they are very helpful in terms of what actual gameplay is available. They seem to me more like opposite ends of the freedom spectrum than descriptive of gameplay (and one seems to be a subset of the other in terms of features – a sandbox can include all the features of a themepark, but a themepark can’t include all the features of a sandbox).

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

……………I wonder if we need to start using better terminology for games. The lineage that includes EQ, WoW, Rift, GW2 and so on should really be given its own sub-genre of massively-multiplayer online, separate to gameplay that is completely different like EVE, Wurm (and hopefully other persistent worlds that I can’t think of right now). I know we have themepark and sandbox, but I don’t think they are very helpful in terms of what actual gameplay is available. They seem to me more like opposite ends of the freedom spectrum than descriptive of gameplay (and one seems to be a subset of the other in terms of features – a sandbox can include all the features of a themepark, but a themepark can’t include all the features of a sandbox).

That would be a great project. The success of the terminology would depend on the terms being genuinely descriptive.(duh?) I would start by looking at how much of a game depends on combat as a story/progression driver for other mechanics such as crafting.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human