Guild Wars 2

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

The problem is NOT that people demand zerker gear for Dungeon runs. They are perfectly allowed to want to run with only certain builds.

The problem is that Anet sees it as a problem.

There was absolutely no need to eliminate MF. Players who demand to run with full zerker gear already had a solution: they simply didn’t allow players with non-zerker gear to run with them. There’s tons and tons of people who don’t demand zerker gear so you could always find another group. Problem solved, no other action required.

When Anet sees some aspect of the game that a minority of players but very vocal minority complain about, they change the entire freakin game on ALL players.That is the recipe for failure we keep seeing.

There’s absolutely no need to change the entire game to appease people who strictly PvP, or who do Dungeons, or who do Fractals, or who strictly do WvW (and the last thing you should be wearing in WvW is full zerker gear).

But instead of implementing changes that allow everyone to play how they like, Anet constantly forces everyone to play the way the most vocal comlpainers want to play the game.

I liked farming in PvE with heavily-statted MF gear, and once in a while I played a dungeon. When I did, I was the guy staying alive the most while I had to rez zerkers. Now I’m being told I can’t play the game the way I enjoyed because one group QQ’d a bunch. Same thing happened with my ele alt because PvP players kept QQing about how “powerful” eles were. Anet nerfed the ele until they are pretty much useless in all aspects of the game.

People are allowed to complain. But for the sake of all that is fun in this game, Anet PLEASE stop screwing the majority to appease the minority.

So you’re that guy that contributes nothing to the group and helps contribute to slow and fail groups. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll avoid grouping with you.

You can’t DPS when you’re dead. Just because YOU can survive “anything” in zerker gear doesn’t mean the vast majority of other players can.

People who have learned the encounters can. Considering the game has been around for like a year that’s plenty of time to learn the encounters.

You’re talking about every single player in this game like they are part of the top 1-2% of skilled players. That’s pure ignorance and arrogance.

Because seeing a boss raise their arm and pressing the dodge key a second later takes some serious skills, amirite? It’s not rocket science, it’s a bloody dodge key. Literally the only reasons people have to not dodge out of lethal attacks is out of laziness, not knowing the encounter of if there’s some other important reason why they don’t need to (e.g. evolved destroyer, guard putting up aegis so the whole group doesn’t get killed by the AOE).

Very few players I’ve ever encountered can handle pure zerker builds for all or even “most” content. I run full zerker on three of my toons because I’ve learned how to do it and survive on them. I also would much rather have a casual/less-skilled player in my group running 50% bunker and not dying in zerker gear all the time.

I don’t actually know what people run outside of farming groups since I never ask if i’m pugging (unless we’ve run in to problems), so I don’t know how many players can handle pure zerker, but considering it’s the meta I’m sure it’s more than you think.

You wanna be elitist, go be elitist with other elitists. Don’t expect everyone else to want to, or be able to play like that. Your viewpoint is categorically, provably wrong.

No, it’s not wrong at all. Zerker gear is the best gear in PVE. It has a little learning curve, yes but it maximises your efficiency when tackling content. The only reason someone should ever use gear with other stats is if they’re gradually trying to acquaint themself with the gear by using a few pieces at a time and want a smoother transition than going from scrub gear straight to full glass.

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

No, it’s not.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

I just edited my post and linked the same thing. I suggest you read it.

Range and damage have far higher priority than defensive stats. That means that if you run a dps warrior and a PVT guardian in the same team, the boss will probably hit the warrior far more often, making the PVT gear pointless. It’s even worse if someone goes with a ranged PVT character. Likewise, zerker ranged characters shouldn’t even require much skill, which makes them more noob friendly.

dustinharlin.8693:

Zeppelin.6832:

Yes, it is possible to contribute nothing to a group, get carried, and still finish a dungeon. Not all of us want to play that way, however.

Like I said, flawed logic.

Sorry, but the logic is not flawed.

In PvP, passive defensive stats are actually useful because player damage has an upper limit because players are limited to the gear that they wear (as there’s very little gear progression in GW2).

This is not the case in PvE. NPC mobs don’t have that same upper limit, and have a much larger variance in damage modifiers. In many cases, even if you’re fully spec’d into defense and/or support, you’re going to reach a point where you and your teammates are 1 shot by everything.

When this happens, passive defenses become meaningless and you’re forced into active defenses (dodging, blinds, shields, etc)… and once you reach this point, DPS gear is really the only thing you need to wear. Not to mention that by not wearing it you’re just dragging fights out longer, giving yourself a greater chance of missing a dodge roll and being killed.

I’m not saying this is a great system and GW2 doesn’t need to be rebalanced (it’s absolutely terrible that this is the case)… but this is the reality of PvE at the moment, and to say anything else is delusional.

No one’s saying it can’t be done without this, but it definitely makes the dungeon harder… and if you’re the ONLY person in the group not doing it, you’re being carried.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

No, it’s not.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

I just edited my post and linked the same thing. I suggest you read it.

Range and damage have far higher priority than defensive stats. That means that if you run a dps warrior and a PVT guardian in the same team, the boss will probably hit the warrior far more often, making the PVT gear pointless. It’s even worse if someone goes with a ranged PVT character. Likewise, zerker ranged characters shouldn’t even require much skill, which makes them more noob friendly.

No, range and damage are higher in a list that has no relevant ordering. You assumption is completely wrong. Zerkers never take aggro away from my guardian tank. The people who do are the mixed-builds who still deal decent damage but have pretty high toughness/armor.

Hickeroar.9734:

No, range and damage are higher in a list that has no relevant ordering. You assumption is completely wrong. Zerkers never take aggro away from my guardian tank. The people who do are the mixed-builds who still deal decent damage but have pretty high toughness/armor.

Ya I get it, but look at the original topic.

Do you think zerker have less agro compare to a MF player?

Or a zerker ranger who don’t melee?

Or a knight ranger who dont’ melee?

Or people who have toughness, but don’t do any dps?

Or basically any pug who isn’t an anchor who know how to play?

So if you look at the original topic, the guy is wearing MF gear. So I obviously have more agro than him, so what’s wrong with me saying I have all the agro, of course I die easier.

And infact I always have agro in almost all the pug. Maybe just maybe if all the pug know what weapon to choose to max dps, and use apporpriate potion, and sigil, and dps rotation. They’ll grab agro in knight gear, but anything less zerker still have all the agro, just because they are typical min/maxer.

In my experience, people geared for with PVT or clerics or other “survivability” (survivability in quotes because doing more damage actually allows better survivability) gear in dungeons don’t even realize they’re being carried. They generally sit back at range, never learn to dodge, never learn dungeon/champ mechanics, and think they’re contributing because they blanket HoTs or res people actually contributing.

Players who use berserker gear have to learn boss mechanics and how to dodge out of necessity and generally become better players because of it. Mobs die quicker which is actually better for group survivability (as opposed to the individual survivability other armor sets offer).

Full berserker gear doesn’t stop someone from “supporting” the group. Important group support such as reflection, aegis, might, fury, prot, quickness, etc work better with berserker stats because the faster something goes down the less the group has to worry about long cooldowns or maintaining boons.

As for magic find gear, it should never have been allowed in group content in the first place. Arenanet finally realized that.

well I dont’ have a problem with magic find. If magic find gives you more reward, everyone should be wearing magic find.

Infact people already do, for example cof runners use omnomberry bar(mostly for more silver drop). They don’t use dps food.

The problem is most of the dungeon don’t have many trash, and most of the loot come from chest and silver drop which isn’t affected by magic find.

So “group wise” it is better to not use MF. But personally wise you do gain more assuming everyone else is wearing zerker. So it really comes down to being selfish.

If it is really worth to wear MF in dungeon, everyone should be wearing MF and we wont’ have this discussion already.

laokoko.7403:

well I dont’ have a problem with magic find. If magic find gives you more reward, everyone should be wearing magic find.

Infact people already do, for example cof runners use omnomberry bar(mostly for more silver drop). They don’t use dps food.

The problem is most of the dungeon don’t have many trash, and most of the loot come from chest and silver drop which isn’t affected by magic find.

So “group wise” it is better to not use MF. But personally wise you do gain more assuming everyone else is wearing zerker. So it really comes down to being selfish.

If it is really worth to wear MF in dungeon, everyone should be wearing MF and we wont’ have this discussion already.

No, cof runners used to use omnom bars not because of the MF but because of the coin increase and because cof p1 is so ridiculously easy that no one needed consumables that actually contributed more to the group. Now bosses no longer drop coin so the value of the omnom bar decreased significantly.

mehcetylene.2376:

No, cof runners used to use omnom bars not because of the MF but because of the coin increase and because cof p1 is so ridiculously easy that no one needed consumables that actually contributed more to the group. Now bosses no longer drop coin so the value of the omnom bar decreased significantly.

That’s why I put parenthess (mostly for silver drop). I understand it’s not MF, but the idea is similar. You actually “gain” something that’s worth while to sacrifice dps.

It’s just not worthwhile to use MF in dungeon, unless that dungeon have alot of trash mob.

laokoko.7403:

mehcetylene.2376:

No, cof runners used to use omnom bars not because of the MF but because of the coin increase and because cof p1 is so ridiculously easy that no one needed consumables that actually contributed more to the group. Now bosses no longer drop coin so the value of the omnom bar decreased significantly.

That’s why I put parenthess (mostly for silver drop). I understand it’s not MF, but the idea is similar. You actually “gain” something that’s worth while to sacrifice dps.

It’s just not worthwhile to use MF in dungeon, unless that dungeon have alot of trash mob.

The reason omnom bars are acceptable in cof p1 is 1) farmers wore berserker gear anyway 2) p1 is so easy, dps consumables weren’t even needed.

That doesn’t mean +MF stat isn’t still a leecher stat.

mehcetylene.2376:

laokoko.7403:

mehcetylene.2376:

No, cof runners used to use omnom bars not because of the MF but because of the coin increase and because cof p1 is so ridiculously easy that no one needed consumables that actually contributed more to the group. Now bosses no longer drop coin so the value of the omnom bar decreased significantly.

That’s why I put parenthess (mostly for silver drop). I understand it’s not MF, but the idea is similar. You actually “gain” something that’s worth while to sacrifice dps.

It’s just not worthwhile to use MF in dungeon, unless that dungeon have alot of trash mob.

The reason omnom bars are acceptable in cof p1 is 1) farmers wore berserker gear anyway 2) p1 is so easy, dps consumables weren’t even needed.

That doesn’t mean +MF stat isn’t still a leecher stat.

The answer can be summerized as in (they are trying to min/max their profit), omnon bars are acceptable because they maximize their profit.

It have nothing to do with p1 being too easy or they already have enough dps. Else they wont’ kick anyone on the spot just because they have the wrong rune.

Wow you “everyone must play zerker all the time” people are clueless.

1) To say people who aren’t running with full zerker gear contribute “nothing” to a party is hilariously false. To be a true statement, you need to say “they don’t contribute as much to DPS.” And really non full-zerkers are still dealing plenty of DPS. Skill level and how well your group knows what to do in a dungeon are far bigger determining factors in how fast you clear a dungeon than their gear.

2) Running full zerker in WvW is a great way to cost your server battles. Hope I’m playing against you guys.

3) The whole point of this thread is to say you have every right to your style of play. AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN’T PLAY LIKE YOU DO, especially when so much of the game can be played without ever setting foot in a dungeon.

I guess LanfearShadowflame said it best:

last time i checked, i didnt bother you people, and you left me the heck alone. problem solved. carry on.

in pve/dungoens zerker stats does the most for the groupe given that the person in the gear knows how to dodge and migret damage somehow. but thats mainly because anet has not made the content that forces you to be able to take some hits from something so that the bose/event can be done, when they do that surviavle stats will be needed in dungoens but not before unforntly

There is a lot of intolerance in this game LilK. From class, to armor, to weapon, to stat choice. It takes a lot of effort to weed through the bigots/idiots/elitists (derogatory usage here) to find the good ones that you like/want to spend time with. All one can do is accept the intolerance and move on, since sadly, nothing is going to fix it.

I still don’t get how moving Magic Find off of gear is screwing the majority of the playerbase as per the OP’s opening post.

… You’re being given other ways to get Magic Find. You’re being given an extra slot of stats AND being given your Magic Find.

… Where do you lose out?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

There is a lot of intolerance in this game LilK. From class, to armor, to weapon, to stat choice. It takes a lot of effort to weed through the bigots/idiots/elitists (derogatory usage here) to find the good ones that you like/want to spend time with. All one can do is accept the intolerance and move on, since sadly, nothing is going to fix it.

+1

The sad thing is these guys don’t see that we have no desire whatsoever to stop them from playing the game the way that they enjoy it. All we’re asking is we be given the same consideration by Anet.

1) To say people who aren’t running with full zerker gear contribute “nothing” to a party is hilariously false. To be a true statement, you need to say “they don’t contribute as much to DPS.” And really non full-zerkers are still dealing plenty of DPS.

No, the guy in PVT is not dealing “plenty” of DPS. There was a time a few months back when I had a full zerker set and another “set” of gear where I mixed zerker, valk and knight’s to try and balance survivability and damage. It was no match to full berserker.

Skill level and how well your group knows what to do in a dungeon are far bigger determining factors in how fast you clear a dungeon than their gear.

I’m sure those cof zerker farms were able to do it because of their skill, right? Wrong, it was all their gear. All they did, was smash hundred blades down, autoattack on axe, switch to GS then hundred blades again, if that. There was even a guy who tried to get in to my farming group just with a greatsword saying he does just fine with it.

Skill is important for zerkers to keep themselves alive, but gear is more important. Without the gear, you can dodge the boss forever, but your DPS will be terrible.

3) The whole point of this thread is to say you have every right to your style of play. AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN’T PLAY LIKE YOU DO, especially when so much of the game can be played without ever setting foot in a dungeon.

People have every right to play what they want as long as they’re not in group situations. If you’re in a group you will be held to standards, and depending on the group it ranges from “full zerk, experienced” to “whatever you want, just don’t die all the time”.

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Wow you “everyone must play zerker all the time” people are clueless.

1) To say people who aren’t running with full zerker gear contribute “nothing” to a party is hilariously false. To be a true statement, you need to say “they don’t contribute as much to DPS.” And really non full-zerkers are still dealing plenty of DPS. Skill level and how well your group knows what to do in a dungeon are far bigger determining factors in how fast you clear a dungeon than their gear.

2) Running full zerker in WvW is a great way to cost your server battles. Hope I’m playing against you guys.

3) The whole point of this thread is to say you have every right to your style of play. AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN’T PLAY LIKE YOU DO, especially when so much of the game can be played without ever setting foot in a dungeon.

I guess LanfearShadowflame said it best:

last time i checked, i didnt bother you people, and you left me the heck alone. problem solved. carry on.

I am going to clarify my stance, as I am unsure if your post is at all directed at me.

I do not think that people who do not wear zerker do not contribute. They contribute less, as you said. Knowing the dungeon is definitely part of it, but given these 4 combinations, guess which is best:
Doesn’t know what’s up + Non-zerker gear = slow, painful
Know’s what’s up + Non-zerker gear = mediocre
Doesn’t know what’s up + Zerker gear = slow, painful, many deaths
Know’s what’s up + Zerker gear = very fast

So yes, knowing what you are doing is definitely a pre-requisite for wearing zerker gear, but it doesn’t take long to learn the mechanics of a dungeon.

My complaints are not with people who choose to wear something other than zerker, it is that I believe ANet has designed a game which pigeon-holes you into one gear choice for nearly every class.

My views are entirely PvE.

I’m honestly surprised that the wiki page for aggro states that damage is so high on the aggro table, higher even than toughness. I have NEVER had a zerker or anyone else pull aggro off of my engineer or guardian, both of whom are running ~2k toughness (well, engie is at ~1800) for that exact reason, and certainly not doing top damage.

I’ve been successfully “tanking” in this game since it released based entirely on my character’s toughness. I’m not sure what they are basing their information on the wiki page upon, but it has not been even remotely reflected in my personal (1,000+ hour) experience in this game.

Honestly, it’s absolutely not hard to find a non-zerker dungeon group. You’re complaining about being looked down upon by Zerkers but that’s, what? On the forums? In the occasional PUG?

Kirschwasser.3972:

Honestly, it’s absolutely not hard to find a non-zerker dungeon group. You’re complaining about being looked down upon by Zerkers but that’s, what? On the forums? In the occasional PUG?

Honestly, I hear about it but have never seen it myself. Almost all of my groups are glad I run as much toughness as I do. I’ve gotten pretty good at aiming NPCs away from the groups, so my groups very VERY rarely have even 1 death in them, and usually that’s just in groups where we 3 man the dungeons because we can’t find a full 5.

But not once have I had someone tell me “drop the toughness and run zerker” in any of my groups.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Honestly, it’s absolutely not hard to find a non-zerker dungeon group. You’re complaining about being looked down upon by Zerkers but that’s, what? On the forums? In the occasional PUG?

I think the concern is with the growing mentality in the game that non-zerker is not acceptable. And it is becoming more prevelent. Soon this issue is going to be just like UWSC. Either you conform, or you simply dont do it.

Attitudes around MF have nothing to do with zerker gear…period. You find the same problems in other games with MF and the same solution (cf. D3 which also solved the problem by removing it from gear).

Remove MF from gear; problem solved. Interesting attempt at linking it up with zerker gear, but no, it has nothing to do with any gear type other than gear with meaningful stats, whatever that is.

My 2 cents:

- Full berserker groups are awesome.
- Most berserker warrior suck. They can’t even dodge simple attacks. For example CoF p1 boss – burning aoe and knock down. Sad but true.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Kirschwasser.3972:

Honestly, it’s absolutely not hard to find a non-zerker dungeon group. You’re complaining about being looked down upon by Zerkers but that’s, what? On the forums? In the occasional PUG?

I think the concern is with the growing mentality in the game that non-zerker is not acceptable. And it is becoming more prevelent. Soon this issue is going to be just like UWSC. Either you conform, or you simply dont do it.

… Except I used to do UWSC all the time in GW1 without conforming to the meta for it.

So what you’re saying is that it’s going to become an issue in the sense that people are going to continue to complain about what -might- happen, but is easily avoided.

Kirschwasser.3972:

I still don’t get how moving Magic Find off of gear is screwing the majority of the playerbase as per the OP’s opening post.

… You’re being given other ways to get Magic Find. You’re being given an extra slot of stats AND being given your Magic Find.

… Where do you lose out?

Maybe we aren’t losing out, maybe Anet will even things out. My main alt doesn’t even have but one piece of MF gear on. I seriously doubt I will get compensated for the laurels and gold I spent on MF gear for all of my alts that I had no clue would become useless in a few months, but hey maybe Anet will actually do it right. My problem is Anet’s constantly seeing problems where there are none, and changing the game on everyone just because some people QQ a lot.

This one bugged me esp cuz gear elitests already had a simple solution that worked great: they simply refused to play with people who didn’t gear up to their standard. What was wrong with that? Nothing. I have nothing against any player that preferred to get pugs like that.

But Anet you can’t force people to play together who don’t want to play together. Do away with MF and people will just find another reason to exclude certain players. Everyone knows 4 warriors and 1 mes is the optimal group for Dungeons, so I guess necros, ele, thief, ranger, engineers and guardians are next on the chopping block? It’s not like there’s more to this game than Dungeons right?

matjazmuhic.1649:

My 2 cents:

- Full berserker groups are awesome.
- Most berserker warrior suck. They can’t even dodge simple attacks. For example CoF p1 boss – burning aoe and knock down. Sad but true.

That’s the problem. Most zerkers just “follow the group/script” because "that’s how I’ve always done it’. They do not know or understand the core mechanics. And that is also why they fail when kittens are hitting the fan. A lack of knowledge added with no versatility and survivability is a useless player that has to be carried.

Jemmi.6058:

I am going to clarify my stance, as I am unsure if your post is at all directed at me.

I do not think that people who do not wear zerker do not contribute. They contribute less, as you said. Knowing the dungeon is definitely part of it, but given these 4 combinations, guess which is best:
Doesn’t know what’s up + Non-zerker gear = slow, painful
Know’s what’s up + Non-zerker gear = mediocre
Doesn’t know what’s up + Zerker gear = slow, painful, many deaths
Know’s what’s up + Zerker gear = very fast

So yes, knowing what you are doing is definitely a pre-requisite for wearing zerker gear, but it doesn’t take long to learn the mechanics of a dungeon.

My complaints are not with people who choose to wear something other than zerker, it is that I believe ANet has designed a game which pigeon-holes you into one gear choice for nearly every class.

My views are entirely PvE.

No actually I agree with most everything you said. Even if I disagreed with 100% of what you said, my problem, like you, is how Anet handles these things.

Although I guess i do kinda understand why they do it, because they also play and love the game. So I wouldn’t be surprised that the staff’s own preferences on how they like to play are likely influencing decisions.

I think Magic Find on gear was absolutely a problem.

You basically had to miss out on an entire stat for a very marginal increase to your chance to obtain rarer gear.

It was a non-choice and was basically telling you that you had to be less effective at the game if you wanted to turn your .01% chance into a .03% chance.

Rammie.2843:

matjazmuhic.1649:

My 2 cents:

- Full berserker groups are awesome.
- Most berserker warrior suck. They can’t even dodge simple attacks. For example CoF p1 boss – burning aoe and knock down. Sad but true.

That’s the problem. Most zerkers just “follow the group/script” because "that’s how I’ve always done it’. They do not know or understand the core mechanics. And that is also why they fail when kittens are hitting the fan. A lack of knowledge added with no versatility and survivability is a useless player that has to be carried.

Exactly. Go full berserker if you know your way around the dungeon extremely well, otherwise go something with more vitality or toughness.

I always tell those players to not play full berserker if they don’t even know when to dodge…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Jemmi.6058:

No, in my opinion at least, the problem lies in the games inherent design.

- No healer
- No tank
- Focus on DPS
- Little control mechanics
- Little support mechanics
- Long cool downs on anything non-DPS related
- Defiant
- Unshakable
- Product of Crit + Prec + Pow is higher than Product of Tough + Vit, or Cond + Cond duration

Exactly.

If roles were required in this game, people would pick different gear stats for each different role.

I just really hope that going to class-based roles is not the solution. The idea that all classes could contribute but no specific one (or two) would ever be necessary was a beautiful one, IMO, and one of the most compelling things about the game, to me. I don’t think it’s the idea of the roles themselves that bothers me; just of the role being restricted per class. So if it were possible for several classes to be able to create builds that were excellent at tanking, or at healing, or at buffing/debuffing, or at direct damage, and if those things actually mattered, I could get behind that. I rather thought that was actually how it would be. But it does seem, the more PvE that I do, the more similarly I’ve begun to build my 3 80s – for lots of dodginess and damage.

I was once asked by a pvt necro what gear am I wearing, I replied zerk, he said that I shouldn’t be using zerk when fighting lupi because I die too quickly (we were fighting lupi atm), the necro was ranging lupi and died, I was meleeing lupi but ooced to res the necro… everybody in this game dies no matter what gear they’re wearing…

crystal.5930:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Jemmi.6058:

No, in my opinion at least, the problem lies in the games inherent design.

- No healer
- No tank
- Focus on DPS
- Little control mechanics
- Little support mechanics
- Long cool downs on anything non-DPS related
- Defiant
- Unshakable
- Product of Crit + Prec + Pow is higher than Product of Tough + Vit, or Cond + Cond duration

Exactly.

If roles were required in this game, people would pick different gear stats for each different role.

I just really hope that going to class-based roles is not the solution. The idea that all classes could contribute but no specific one (or two) would ever be necessary was a beautiful one, IMO, and one of the most compelling things about the game, to me. I don’t think it’s the idea of the roles themselves that bothers me; just of the role being restricted per class. So if it were possible for several classes to be able to create builds that were excellent at tanking, or at healing, or at buffing/debuffing, or at direct damage, and if those things actually mattered, I could get behind that. I rather thought that was actually how it would be. But it does seem, the more PvE that I do, the more similarly I’ve begun to build my 3 80s – for lots of dodginess and damage.

This is exactly what I thought they meant by removing the need for class roles.
That every single class could be every single role with a spec/gear change.
This would be awesome and fix a lot of the problems we see in PvE

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

Unless everyone is running zerker… See the thing is, usually you have someone in tankier gear…which is not zerker…pulling aggro. Kinda negates the whole argument, right?

Aggro is determined by range and damage.

No, it’s not.

Edit: Here’s the Wiki page: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Obviously damage/range is a factor. So is “tankiness.” (Armor/Toughness)

I run a knights/celestial guardian and I have aggro 95% of the time while I KNOW I’m dealing less damage than most people in any particular encounter. I scepter-range regularly (which has middling damage), and the scenario is the same.

Some bosses have different scripts. Lupi and the Grawl Shaman in fractals target lowest health almost to the exclusion of all other factors. Only way I don’t have aggro as an ele on Lupi is if the guardian I’m running with is full zerk and I wear 1 piece of PVT that gives me enough health over him to not get targetted, or there’s a second ele. Even a zerker mesmer has more health than anything but a full PVT useless ele.

Jemmi.6058:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

The problem is NOT that people demand zerker gear for Dungeon runs. They are perfectly allowed to want to run with only certain builds.

The problem is that Anet sees it as a problem.

No, in my opinion at least, the problem lies in the games inherent design.

- No healer
- No tank
- Focus on DPS
- Little control mechanics
- Little support mechanics
- Long cool downs on anything non-DPS related
- Defiant
- Unshakable
- Product of Crit + Prec + Pow is higher than Product of Tough + Vit, or Cond + Cond duration

I am not sure why the change to MF is undesirable? This makes alternate characters more appealing as MF is account bound. This makes it so that you can create a character that will kill stuff fast while also having the benefits of MF.

Defiant and low returns on healing power absolutely kill doing anything else but dps+dodge/reflect in this game.

Why bother stripping defiant stacks to interrupt an attack when A. Another player could not realize what you’re doing and stun/daze/knockback/knockdown the enemy at an inopportune time, and B. It’s much more reliable to just expect everyone to dodge the big attacks than to interrupt them. Defiant is only stripped to use knockbacks or pulls to reposition a mob into a wall or corner where certain skills result in much higher damage against it.

There’s no real use for “control” in this game aside from trash.

Healing power’s returns are low because aside from your self heal, every heal is an aoe, meaning it gets a fraction of the normal returns from healing power.

I’d be kinda nice to be a healing ele or guardian or mesmer with full healing power and keeping people up, but, even full healing power you get such lousy returns.

Yes I realize tha in a WvW situation a water field plus a gazillion blasts top off an entire zerg, and hence those effects are limited on an individual basis, but in a dungeon or fractal group.. you don’t have as many blast finishers topping everyone off.

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

The problem is only a problem when brainless/clueless people believe that zerker is the only possible good armor for any and all activities in PvE

It is.

The fact that you continue to refuse to accept that is … well …

Like I said….brainless/clueless.

You keep saying it but it doesn’t make it true…

Sorry but GW2 follows traditional RPG mechanics where the more damage you do the faster a boss dies… Sorry but your mythical low damage armor doesn’t make bosses die faster than zerker.

No one is saying you can’t do dungeons in other stats. The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

colesy.8490:

There is nothing better than DPS in this game, and zerker gear maximises DPS. Therefore, how is it not the best?

Ask ANet, once more why they allow stat diversity? “For WvW/PvP” is not the official developer answer as far as I know.

And the answer to your question is that not everybody plays your way, and that’s OK too-you shouldn’t find fault with that. Everybody’s “best” is different, and incredibly (for you), what’s best for someone out there may not be what’s more “efficient”, regardless math and youtube videos.

People are not selfish for using healing gear-they are exercising their free-will to play the game their way. Don’t play with them, but don’t find a problem with it-that is the solution.

And I agree with the notion that encounters should be better balanced so that the idea that “only DPS wins” is at the very least balanced with alternate, fun builds for everybody based on other stats. Condition, CC runners, builds with decent Healing Power, etc. also deserve their own niche in the game (well, they can have it, but they are usually frowned upon by people who don’t understand that GW2 PvE is not by definition a speedrun.)

In short, the idea of “Berserker’s is the right way” to play only theoretically applies to the fastest speed-running approach, and since not everybody plays that way, it’s futile to criticize others as selfish, stupid, or other things for not playing the game the way you do.

Wreckdum.8367:

The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

The fact remains and isn’t up to debate that not everybody engages on speedruns, and that GW2=/= speed-running. Speedclears are a fun way to play for many, but certainly no the only way to play.

And making assumptions that players can’t dodge, don’t know hot to play because they use something else that is not Berserker’s is pretty arrogant, because you don’t know these people. Hickeroar, for instance, has many characters with Berserker’s gear and chooses to play other gear too.And finally, there ARE Berserker’s gear users who do so not because they are “leet” and “know how to dodge”, but because it’s “meta” and want a slot in speedrun clears-they are basically players who give Berserker’s gear a bad name by dying constantly over and over, but I feel bad for them because they are just trying to follow math’s “proven” logic and to find a place in the meta rather than playing with gear that would probably suit them better.

Star Ace.5207:

Wreckdum.8367:

The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

The fact remains and isn’t up to debate that not everybody engages on speedruns, and that GW2=/= speed-running. Speedclears are a fun way to play for many, but certainly no the only way to play.

And making assumptions that players can’t dodge, don’t know hot to play because they use something else that is not Berserker’s is pretty arrogant, because you don’t know these people. Hickeroar, for instance, has many characters with Berserker’s gear and chooses to play other gear too.And finally, there ARE Berserker’s gear users who do so not because they are “leet” and “know how to dodge”, but because it’s “meta” and want a slot in speedrun clears-they are basically players who give Berserker’s gear a bad name by dying constantly over and over, but I feel bad for them because they are just trying to follow math’s “proven” logic and to find a place in the meta rather than playing with gear that would probably suit them better.

In regards to dungeons, I don’t feel bad for berserker players who go down in dungeons because they will learn what to dodge and get better at the game, and in doing so will contribute more. They are also more likely to play with better players who can teach them.

On the other hand, players wearing PVT stacking defensive traits are less likely to learn what to dodge because they can just absorb a hit or two and continue to do their low damage.

mehcetylene.2376:

Star Ace.5207:

Wreckdum.8367:

The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

The fact remains and isn’t up to debate that not everybody engages on speedruns, and that GW2=/= speed-running. Speedclears are a fun way to play for many, but certainly no the only way to play.

And making assumptions that players can’t dodge, don’t know hot to play because they use something else that is not Berserker’s is pretty arrogant, because you don’t know these people. Hickeroar, for instance, has many characters with Berserker’s gear and chooses to play other gear too.And finally, there ARE Berserker’s gear users who do so not because they are “leet” and “know how to dodge”, but because it’s “meta” and want a slot in speedrun clears-they are basically players who give Berserker’s gear a bad name by dying constantly over and over, but I feel bad for them because they are just trying to follow math’s “proven” logic and to find a place in the meta rather than playing with gear that would probably suit them better.

In regards to dungeons, I don’t feel bad for berserker players who go down in dungeons because they will learn what to dodge and get better at the game, and in doing so will contribute more. They are also more likely to play with better players who can teach them.

On the other hand, players wearing PVT stacking defensive traits are less likely to learn what to dodge because they can just absorb a hit or two and continue to do their low damage.

Entitled to your own opinion, which is fine-however, you just proved what I also agree with, that Soldier’s gear is not really training wheels for Berserker’s playstyle-if you want to learn high risk/high reward, you must play and practice it with the full gear.

Unfortunately, it’s not about learning to dodge, which is doable with all sorts of gear-some player’s can get reasonably good with Berserker’s, but in the end it is not an universally good playstyle for every player-which is the greatest weakness of the “Berserker’s is the only way to play GW2” argument.

Star Ace.5207:

Wreckdum.8367:

The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

The fact remains and isn’t up to debate that not everybody engages on speedruns, and that GW2=/= speed-running. Speedclears are a fun way to play for many, but certainly no the only way to play.

And making assumptions that players can’t dodge, don’t know hot to play because they use something else that is not Berserker’s is pretty arrogant, because you don’t know these people. Hickeroar, for instance, has many characters with Berserker’s gear and chooses to play other gear too.And finally, there ARE Berserker’s gear users who do so not because they are “leet” and “know how to dodge”, but because it’s “meta” and want a slot in speedrun clears-they are basically players who give Berserker’s gear a bad name by dying constantly over and over, but I feel bad for them because they are just trying to follow math’s “proven” logic and to find a place in the meta rather than playing with gear that would probably suit them better.

What gear would suit a DPS warrior better than zerker? I’m all ears. Factoring in I’m not terrible so I don’t need high toughness or vitality.

I’ll give an example from Starcraft: Brood War.

It became very popular for the Protoss at high levels of play to expand early against a Zerg player. If you aren’t familiar with Starcraft, the Zerg are able to field a large amount of weak but effective units known as zerglings that could overwhelm a poorly defended opponent. The Protoss player could field defense and their own units, but since their stuff is more expensive, it would be best to hold the Zerg at bay with as little defense as possible in order to gain an economic advantage.

Most high level maps allowed a player to place a new base close to your original base so that you could effectively defend both entrances by using buildings and photon cannons to block off any manner of enemy access. Now what separates a noob from a good player is that a noob would build 10 cannons and waste money regardless of situation where a better player would scout and build as many as cannons as necessary. 9 times out of 10 the better player would come out ahead, but once in a while they can fall prey to a sneak attack, in which the noobish player wouldn’t.

Now, the difference between a better player and a pro player is that a pro can get away with building no defense and come up with it, timed perfectly to come in just as the enemy comes in. That usually works for most standard games, but there’s been quite a few places where a surprise attack or sometimes just even bad luck cause a very humiliating loss in public.

As another interesting note, there’s quite a few decent but not great players that usually win if they are more defensive and often fail miserably when they try to emulate what the pros do.

Eventually, people aware of the metagame would defy it, and pull off oddball strategies that defied this, and essentially did things that would be bad strategies in most instances but succeeded due to the other side’s inability to react. The reaction to picking a playstyle that wasn’t right? Rage and tears, and even long post on message boards suggested that such gameplay styles be removed from the game. In this case, I find this to be quite universal in like every multiplayer game. People just love to ban people from playing in a way they don’t like because they are so obsessed with what’s “right” and “wrong”

Of course, this is due to the nature of other players being unpredictable. Against predictable situations, the risk of not going defense drops heavily given enough experience. Zerker is the best against enemies that let you hit them.

So what’s the point of this? My points:
- Safer options are not necessarily objectively inferior. They are when the benefits do not outweigh the cost, and that still depends on goal.
- It can be better when facing new or unpredictable scenarios.
-Some choices are terrible because they make unnecessary sacrifices.
- Just because the best players do something, does not mean everyone can perform optimally given their own skill level. If a bad player can only survive using pvt, then it’s the only manner in which they can meaningfully contribute anything.
- My point here is about the “edge”. Ultimately, certain things in a game give you an advantage, but that itself doesn’t mean that much unless one is able to take advantage of it. Gearing isn’t as dramatic in gw2 as in other games. Honestly, a 10-20% edge is just not the difference between night and day people are imagining. So indeed full soldiers is probably mediocre at best. But what about everything in between? I can see why it’s silly to sacrifice 40% damage for minimal survival gains, but what about when the gap is closer? like 10-15%?

- A lot of people are worse than they think they are.
- Stop forcing people to play a certain way. Instead, it’s better to think about the best way to get the most out of them. Unless you like having no friends. Even if they could legitimately improve, you just have to realize the incentive of improving in a non-competitive environment such as PVE in this game isn’t particularly high or even meaningful to a lot of people.

i don’t understand?? i still have my magic find armor set

Not for long

Except they aren’t removing it. They are giving it to you as a bonus.

So now, your gear merely determines your strength. Then you can also have bonus better loot too.

Where’s the problem? Everybody wins now.

Dog.1472:

Except they aren’t removing it. They are giving it to you as a bonus.

No they are not. They are making it a standard feature of any account. Which basically equals to simply buffing all drop rates.

This removes the element of choice, people like choosing to wear MF gear.

Wreckdum.8367:

Star Ace.5207:

Wreckdum.8367:

The fact remains and isn’t up for debate that zerker is the best armor set for the fastest clears of dungeons.

And just because you can’t do dungeons in full zerker and not die doesn’t make it clueless/brainless. It just means other people are at a higher skill level than you that they don’t need toughness/vitality as a skill compensator. womp womp womp

The fact remains and isn’t up to debate that not everybody engages on speedruns, and that GW2=/= speed-running. Speedclears are a fun way to play for many, but certainly no the only way to play.

And making assumptions that players can’t dodge, don’t know hot to play because they use something else that is not Berserker’s is pretty arrogant, because you don’t know these people. Hickeroar, for instance, has many characters with Berserker’s gear and chooses to play other gear too.And finally, there ARE Berserker’s gear users who do so not because they are “leet” and “know how to dodge”, but because it’s “meta” and want a slot in speedrun clears-they are basically players who give Berserker’s gear a bad name by dying constantly over and over, but I feel bad for them because they are just trying to follow math’s “proven” logic and to find a place in the meta rather than playing with gear that would probably suit them better.

What gear would suit a DPS warrior better than zerker? I’m all ears. Factoring in I’m not terrible so I don’t need high toughness or vitality.

A question to your question: who are you to judge people as “terrible” for using non-Berserker’s gear?

If you want to be a DPS Warrior, of course you’ll want to have more offensive stats, and usually Beserker’s fill that role nicely.

Thing is, not everybody wants-or should-be a full DPS Warrior, which was my point-the playstyle is not universally great for everybody, and it has nothing to do with players being “too terrible” to be able to use it (there’s simply the choice not to use it regardless “skill.” Why isn’t it OK for other players not to use Berserker’s if they are not running “DPS Warriors” or if they don’t care for speedruns?

AntiGw.9367:

Dog.1472:

Except they aren’t removing it. They are giving it to you as a bonus.

No they are not. They are making it a standard feature of any account. Which basically equals to simply buffing all drop rates.

This removes the element of choice, people like choosing to wear MF gear.

You actually choose to be terrible?

I have never in my life heard someone say they would rather fight with a dull sword than a sharp one.

Kirschwasser.3972:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Kirschwasser.3972:

Honestly, it’s absolutely not hard to find a non-zerker dungeon group. You’re complaining about being looked down upon by Zerkers but that’s, what? On the forums? In the occasional PUG?

I think the concern is with the growing mentality in the game that non-zerker is not acceptable. And it is becoming more prevelent. Soon this issue is going to be just like UWSC. Either you conform, or you simply dont do it.

… Except I used to do UWSC all the time in GW1 without conforming to the meta for it.

So what you’re saying is that it’s going to become an issue in the sense that people are going to continue to complain about what -might- happen, but is easily avoided.

You realize its not ‘UWSC’ if you’re not ‘conforming to the meta’ correct?

The speed clear was an ele, a necro, a rit, and a bunch of flippin sins…occassionally they’d allow a terratank ele for wastes but not often. At the end if you didnt have 100s of stones and maxed pve skills, most groups wouldnt take you.

If you tried to find ‘other’ types of groups to do it (like old school balance) you’d get laughed out of ToA. It was SC or bust.

Been there, done that. DONT want to see it happen again, and we are well on the path to it. The ‘zerk’ warrior, mes, or guard only requests are becoming more and more prevelant. The sc sickness is starting to take over for dungeons, in less than a year, so I’d say we have a justifiable concern.