Guild Wars 2

MF gear was just the most dumb thing in GW2.

Zerk and current DG meta has nothing to do with it.

I’d like to remind people here that, yes the current dungeons are mostly DPS fests and that yes, other roles like CC aren’t required, mostly because of Defiant.

But no matter what, if ANet makes a dungeon where having, say, two AoE CC heavy classes is required to stand even a chance, they’d still be using Berzerker’s stats on their gear.

GW2 “trinity” (although a little broken currently) is damage, support, control.

- Damage : best done in zerk. If Anet changes something for conditions, we’ll have two best ways to do damage, zerk or rampagers. But that’s just cosmetics.
- Support is giving boons and stuff, Giver’s armor is really not worth it for a tiny amount of boon duration so once again best gear choice will be zerk and rampagers. Why? Because no matter what, a support player will NOT spend is time in a party doing just that. They’ll still DPS between buffing and it’ll happen more often than not.
- Control is applying CC and controlling conditions. Giver weapons give a nice bonus to condition duration so they can be considered but control conditions are meaningless in current boss fights : blind doesn’t work, weakness is too short and movement impairing doesn’t mean anything when your party melees the boss, especially since Immobilize doesn’t prevent mobs from turning. Gear choice for CC role? Zerk + optionally giver’s weapons.

See, the problem of GW2 isn’t in the roles, it’s in the gear stats itself which compared to the PvE tasks at hand, only zerk really is “suitable” for the job : reducing the mobs HP bar to 0.

In fact, if you look at that CoF record speed run, they had what? No control because they only fight bosses mostly but still, it was 1 mesmer, 1 ranger, 1 warrior and 2 thieves. That means for me : 3 supports and 2 DPS. Yes, warrior is support. He puts down banners and gives lots of boons. He also does DPS. Thieves are the only I class into DPS because their role is purely that. Maybe they give a little fury with points in trickery but I don’t think they need it, the warrior and ranger can probably provide all the fury they want.

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Wow you “everyone must play zerker all the time” people are clueless.

1) To say people who aren’t running with full zerker gear contribute “nothing” to a party is hilariously false. To be a true statement, you need to say “they don’t contribute as much to DPS.” And really non full-zerkers are still dealing plenty of DPS. Skill level and how well your group knows what to do in a dungeon are far bigger determining factors in how fast you clear a dungeon than their gear.

2) Running full zerker in WvW is a great way to cost your server battles. Hope I’m playing against you guys.

3) The whole point of this thread is to say you have every right to your style of play. AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN’T PLAY LIKE YOU DO, especially when so much of the game can be played without ever setting foot in a dungeon.

I guess LanfearShadowflame said it best:

last time i checked, i didnt bother you people, and you left me the heck alone. problem solved. carry on.

1) Clearly you haven’t played the game wearing berserker armor, in a dps spec vs cleric in a support spec. The difference in DPS is night and day. While it is true that skill level does play a role in dungeon success, you can’t argue with numbers. In your clerics gear you’re putting out smaller numbers, and no amount of skill is going to make you put out bigger numbers unless you regear and respec. It’s pretty simple.

2) No one is talking about WvW… most classes don’t wear full berserker in PvP… but PvP is different. You actually do get a benefit from defensive stats in PvP because player damage has an upper limit, unlike NPC mobs.

3) You can gear however you want outside of a dungeon… but the point of the thread is what you do inside of it.

CrossedHorse.4261:

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

What you’re saying is mostly all true… which is why most people don’t play Necros for PvE. There are a ton of balancing problems in GW2… and this is another huge one.

CrossedHorse.4261:

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

Questions right my alley homie

My first char, near and dear to my heart, my Necro!

Okay so Condi or Power?

imo

After playing all the builds and gear setups, Power all the way!

Why?

Because of the boss buffs Defiant, unshakable, condition caps, conditions overridden by other players, effectiveness % cut by bosses, etc.

If it wasn’t for these nuisances, condi Necro would be king in PvE and dungeons but its not…..

Is a Zerk Necro as powerful as a War? Of course not, but you bring a very neat trick that Wars can’t. Death shroud

Death shroud is great for dmg of course, but amazing at saving your skin when your gettn rdy to get pummeled….

Necro’s weakness: no support whatsoever, especially of your running power.

Bottom line: Necro’s good fun, but not the most optimal class for dungeon running, but if your running Necro, you gotta roll power with Zerk gear….

Zeppelin.6832:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

What you’re saying is mostly all true… which is why most people don’t play Necros for PvE. There are a ton of balancing problems in GW2… and this is another huge one.

Oh Ok, thanks for that.

So, from a zerker mindset, if hypothetically they were playing with someone running a Necro in a dungeon, would they rather the Necro wore zerker or something else? Having read through this thread, I can’t really see how the Necro would be offering more efficiency by speccing for DPS than by something else. Or does that added DPS on top of the conditions still outweigh anything else?

And, is it better not to wipe, be more tanky but less DPS-y, or to be DPS and wipe a few times? Obviously, this will be dependent on player skill level and not just gear.

As a Necro there is absolutely no reason to roll survivability stats because you have death shroud. Which is 10 times more useful defensively than any survivability stat. So why Zerk? Well conditions aren’t really happening in dungeons, so what gear are you left with?

Thing with Necro, you can go balls to the wall offense and still have great defense…

lilstev.3498:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

Questions right my alley homie

My first char, near and dear to my heart, my Necro!

Okay so Condi or Power?

imo

After playing all the builds and gear setups, Power all the way!

Why?

Because of the boss buffs Defiant, unshakable, condition caps, conditions overridden by other players, effectiveness % cut by bosses, etc.

If it wasn’t for these nuisances, condi Necro would be king in PvE and dungeons but its not…..

Is a Zerk Necro as powerful as a War? Of course not, but you bring a very neat trick that Wars can’t. Death shroud

Death shroud is great for dmg of course, but amazing at saving your skin when your gettn rdy to get pummeled….

Necro’s weakness: no support whatsoever, especially of your running power.

Bottom line: Necro’s good fun, but not the most optimal class for dungeon running, but if your running Necro, you gotta roll power with Zerk gear….

Thanks for the answer! That makes sense (I main a Necro too and despite all the limitations I can’t help but love her).

Just out of further curiosity, if it weren’t for the lack of support options for the Necro, how does the Necro’s DPS compare with other professions (excluding say, the Warrior, as naturally we know that’s the king of DPS)? I have a char in each, but their levels are so varied and naturally I get better at the game each new char I roll, so I can’t really tell since I don’t have all chars to 80 yet. What I guess I’m trying to ask here, is does the Necro have viable DPS, outside of using death shroud?

lilstev.3498:

As a Necro there is absolutely no reason to roll survivability stats because you have death shroud. Which is 10 times more useful defensively than any survivability stat. So why Zerk? Well conditions aren’t really happening in dungeons, so what gear are you left with?

Thing with Necro, you can go balls to the wall offense and still have great defense…

True. I hadn’t actually thought of that angle before.

Thanks guys for a very interesting discussion!

Thinking that berzerker gear is the best does not make us elitists or speed-runner lovers, or else we’d all be zerker warriors. I’m an elementalist myself. If I cared about speed running, I wouldn’t be one.

It just so happens that this game’s pve balance is beyond broken. Anet needs serious balancing and content changes to fix it.

PVT gear? Good for tanking roles, which do not exist.
Cleric gear? Good for healing roles, but healing power scales poorly and is poorly supported by this game.
Condition gear? Restricted by caps and other factors, or else it could rival zerker.
Control builds? Defiant makes them useless, and outside of it, only a single stat helps them: condition duration. They’re better off with zerker gear.
Support builds? Boon duration and healing power only affect some forms of support, not all, and aren’t generally needed because a group can stack boons and mitigate all damage.

CrossedHorse.4261:

lilstev.3498:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I have a genuine question for zerkers to answer – and I ask this out of interest and because I’m not good with numbers!

So, obviously the DPS you can build into a Warrior is much higher with the DPS you can build into, say, a Necromancer, right? So, even in full zerker gear, the Necro is going to be doing significantly less damage than the Warrior. I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that we can agree that is a fact.

Ok, so the Necro has a ton of conditions they can stack, but once you get to a point, adding any more becomes pointless as the stack is full, and you really need to rely on DPS to get the boss to finally quit.

So … what happens if the amount of hurt this boss can dish out just outlasts everything the Necro can throw at it? I mean, maybe the Warrior could get this guy down because his limit of DPS is so high, but the Necro doesn’t have anything like that. So the Necro is left glassy as all heck, but still pretty limited in its DPS.

Is it still better for the Necro to spec for DPS in this case? Or would the party actually be better off if the Necro specced for survivability and brought skills along that could support, like well of corruption etc?

Just as a quick note – please don’t use “anyone who plays Necro is stupid” as an argument. I’m talking hypothetically about the use of zerker gear and trying to establish whether it genuinely is the optimal gear for every class, and I’m doing it because it’s genuinely an interesting debate when people are willing to be reasonable rather than rude.

Questions right my alley homie

My first char, near and dear to my heart, my Necro!

Okay so Condi or Power?

imo

After playing all the builds and gear setups, Power all the way!

Why?

Because of the boss buffs Defiant, unshakable, condition caps, conditions overridden by other players, effectiveness % cut by bosses, etc.

If it wasn’t for these nuisances, condi Necro would be king in PvE and dungeons but its not…..

Is a Zerk Necro as powerful as a War? Of course not, but you bring a very neat trick that Wars can’t. Death shroud

Death shroud is great for dmg of course, but amazing at saving your skin when your gettn rdy to get pummeled….

Necro’s weakness: no support whatsoever, especially of your running power.

Bottom line: Necro’s good fun, but not the most optimal class for dungeon running, but if your running Necro, you gotta roll power with Zerk gear….

Thanks for the answer! That makes sense (I main a Necro too and despite all the limitations I can’t help but love her).

Just out of further curiosity, if it weren’t for the lack of support options for the Necro, how does the Necro’s DPS compare with other professions (excluding say, the Warrior, as naturally we know that’s the king of DPS)? I have a char in each, but their levels are so varied and naturally I get better at the game each new char I roll, so I can’t really tell since I don’t have all chars to 80 yet. What I guess I’m trying to ask here, is does the Necro have viable DPS, outside of using death shroud?

Honestly right now we dont “know” that warriors are the king of DPS. We can see that they do great DPS, but their main achievement is doing great DPS easily. It is very easy to play a berserker PvE Warrior. However we have already seen a necro team DPS vid on Lupi that rivals the fastest Warrior times. The answer is in the details but we dont have a damage meter to know them exactly. The general consensus is a necro can hang with the DPS kings but Warrior is still easier to play with a lower skill ceiling so people want one more.

As for what lilstev said I cant disagree, but I want to get to you that with rampager in existence and the fact that we dont have damage meters not to mention that half your skills deal a lot more condition damage than direct, Full berserker may not be the most DPS a necro can pull solo. Really only you can figure that out for yourself. but berserker/rampager are really as far as you need look for DPS. However like Lilstev said once another condition spammer enters the picture you will loose effectiveness so again it becomes not that berserker deals more damage, but that it’s easier and predictable damage.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Thanks for the answer! That makes sense (I main a Necro too and despite all the limitations I can’t help but love her).

Just out of further curiosity, if it weren’t for the lack of support options for the Necro, how does the Necro’s DPS compare with other professions (excluding say, the Warrior, as naturally we know that’s the king of DPS)? I have a char in each, but their levels are so varied and naturally I get better at the game each new char I roll, so I can’t really tell since I don’t have all chars to 80 yet. What I guess I’m trying to ask here, is does the Necro have viable DPS, outside of using death shroud?

Every class can get decent DPS with proper spec (more than enough for pugs). Based on what I have heard Necromancer has some hard hitting stuff.
The thing is, most people have no idea what they are talking about (also includes me in this case) and are basing their opinion on something random. I blame a particular speedrun guild for this (starts with D and ends with T, n in the middle).
For example opposed to what most people thing, based on this topic (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Best-to-worst-dungeon-dps-classes) Warrior actually isn’t the king of dps (however there are other factors).

Lokki.1092:

Honestly right now we dont “know” that warriors are the king of DPS. We can see that they do great DPS, but their main achievement is doing great DPS easily. It is very easy to play a berserker PvE Warrior. However we have already seen a necro team DPS vid on Lupi that rivals the fastest Warrior times. The answer is in the details but we dont have a damage meter to know them exactly. The general consensus is a necro can hang with the DPS kings but Warrior is still easier to play with a lower skill ceiling so people want one more.

As for what lilstev said I cant disagree, but I want to get to you that with rampager in existence and the fact that we dont have damage meters not to mention that half your skills deal a lot more condition damage than direct, Full berserker may not be the most DPS a necro can pull solo. Really only you can figure that out for yourself. but berserker/rampager are really as far as you need look for DPS. However like Lilstev said once another condition spammer enters the picture you will loose effectiveness so again it becomes not that berserker deals more damage, but that it’s easier and predictable damage.

Ah – good point.

I always wondered about condition damage builds (I run Rampager’s on my Necro atm) … I haven’t quite worked out what does better damage for me yet. I always assumed (also assuming that condition damage buffs condition damage per stack rather than just adding more stacks) that I’d be better playing to the strengths of Necros to dish out conditions than just DPS.

Yeah condition caps need a redesign – I understand the cap, but not why it’s so limited right now.

I also play an Ele and struggle to survive running zerker gear (yes, I’m still in the learning phase) because they’re downright squishy – they have none of the in-built toughness, vitality or Death Shroud of a Necro.

The only reason to not run berserker gear in pve is if you can’t survive with it. But seriously, if you can survive with no defensive stats, what is the point of having them?

CrossedHorse.4261:

Ah – good point.

I always wondered about condition damage builds (I run Rampager’s on my Necro atm) … I haven’t quite worked out what does better damage for me yet. I always assumed (also assuming that condition damage buffs condition damage per stack rather than just adding more stacks) that I’d be better playing to the strengths of Necros to dish out conditions than just DPS.

Yeah condition caps need a redesign – I understand the cap, but not why it’s so limited right now.

I also play an Ele and struggle to survive running zerker gear (yes, I’m still in the learning phase) because they’re downright squishy – they have none of the in-built toughness, vitality or Death Shroud of a Necro.

Condition damage does buff the damage your conditions do, not increase the stack size. The formula for all condition damage is

((x * condition damage)+(y * level) ) * multiplier (the multiplier is stack amount, it is invisible on burning and poison but they do have one)

Right now the safest best to just to go berserker, all the world bosses, any constructs and a few dungeon/fractal bosses are either immune to or because of encounter scale they are essentially immune to your personal conditions. this is another example of why berserker gear isn’t the problem but a symptom of the true problems.

If your personal condition damage was independent of everyone else I have no doubt that rampager would become top DPS gear for many weapons and specs. Of course the problem with DPS being the end all be all is a different problem all together but again it’s not because of berserker gear.

For your Ele I would suggest starting with a PVT/Cleric set Then moving to a Knight/Valk set I personally suggest Valk armor while knight trinkets because there are no Valk ascended trinkets, and knight has 2 different stat setups to chose from for a little more customization po/pr/t or po/pr/t

Then just slowly start to replace your gear with berserker. you can even use the berserker gear with valk jewels (ascended gear has a set with this baked right in) which will give you a vitality cushion which keeping the same power and crit damage, but slightly less crit chance. When you get to the point where you are face down more often than not and cannot improve then the last step of gear is your personal threshold point. The key is doing as much DPS as possible while staying alive.

Lokki.1092:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Ah – good point.

I always wondered about condition damage builds (I run Rampager’s on my Necro atm) … I haven’t quite worked out what does better damage for me yet. I always assumed (also assuming that condition damage buffs condition damage per stack rather than just adding more stacks) that I’d be better playing to the strengths of Necros to dish out conditions than just DPS.

Yeah condition caps need a redesign – I understand the cap, but not why it’s so limited right now.

I also play an Ele and struggle to survive running zerker gear (yes, I’m still in the learning phase) because they’re downright squishy – they have none of the in-built toughness, vitality or Death Shroud of a Necro.

Condition damage does buff the damage your conditions do, not increase the stack size. The formula for all condition damage is

((x * condition damage)+(y * level) ) * multiplier (the multiplier is stack amount, it is invisible on burning and poison but they do have one)

Right now the safest best to just to go berserker, all the world bosses, any constructs and a few dungeon/fractal bosses are either immune to or because of encounter scale they are essentially immune to your personal conditions. this is another example of why berserker gear isn’t the problem but a symptom of the true problems.

If your personal condition damage was independent of everyone else I have no doubt that rampager would become top DPS gear for many weapons and specs. Of course the problem with DPS being the end all be all is a different problem all together but again it’s not because of berserker gear.

For your Ele I would suggest starting with a PVT/Cleric set Then moving to a Knight/Valk set I personally suggest Valk armor while knight trinkets because there are no Valk ascended trinkets, and knight has 2 different stat setups to chose from for a little more customization po/pr/t or po/pr/t

Then just slowly start to replace your gear with berserker. you can even use the berserker gear with valk jewels (ascended gear has a set with this baked right in) which will give you a vitality cushion which keeping the same power and crit damage, but slightly less crit chance. When you get to the point where you are face down more often than not and cannot improve then the last step of gear is your personal threshold point. The key is doing as much DPS as possible while staying alive.

Thanks very much – I’ll definitely look to try your suggestions for my Ele. I am fairly sure I have a full Valkyrie set of armor in the bank somewhere, and I’ll make sure to pick up some Knight trinkets while I save for some zerker gear.

I totally agree with your assessment that the prevalence of zerker gear/builds is a symptom of the problem rather than the cause – and I’m going to hold onto my Necro’s Rampager armor just in the hopes that this might change somewhere far, far in the future, lol, but maybe start venturing into the zerker builds now and then for some parts of PvE.

On a different note: apologies to the OP since I sort of went off on a tangent on your thread, but here’s my two cents now. I am all for playing the game the way you want to play and playing the way you enjoy. However, when it comes to MF gear, I am in agreement with most people who think it is a selfish thing to wear WHEN PLAYING IN A GROUP. In open world PvE, or even WvW at a push it’s totally fine, you can do what you want and it’s no problem. For dungeon runs, it really does put you at a distinct level lower than the rest of the group, and contributes nothing towards the activity in hand.

Now that they are changing the MF mechanic, it’s far better – you will be able to have an account-wide buff, use consumables to boost your MF, AND use that other gear that you’ve been dying to try out but haven’t because you didn’t want to swap out the MF stat on your gear. How is this not a better way? Now you can have your cake and eat it, and everyone else can too.

Note that Rampager/Zerk is the same fight. They both are just a different type of DPS build. If they fix the PvE DPS problems of Rampager we’ll get a few new builds for PvE but it’ll still be 100% DPS gear or gtfo.

People demanding zerk (pugs on gw2lfg), joke is on you… the time you waste waiting for that fifth zerk player is longer than the extra time for taking another character instead.

Genious guys… Genious…

If all you care is to do it fast cause your life is so full of important things to do, then you better take whoever 4 you can get and have it done in 20 mins rather than waiting an extra 15 mins to do the run in another 15 mins…. obviously time and efficiency is not the problem here but being an elitist kid.

PS: “Since we wan’t to do this AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!! (AKA save 5 mins?) you will have to link every piece of gear and we are going to read if it is zerk or not!” <—- Zerk elitist logic, not very smart lol

You do understand that the LFG announces that are THAT strict for gear usually tend to be CoF farming runs that intent to do like 1h or 2h straight dungeon farming, not a single run right?

That or they look for DPS players for Arah path 4.

stof.9341:

You do understand that the LFG announces that are THAT strict for gear usually tend to be CoF farming runs that intent to do like 1h or 2h straight dungeon farming, not a single run right?

That or they look for DPS players for Arah path 4.

I’m at work atm, can’t check; but last time it wasn’t only for COF. It is a stupid trend getting more attached to kids heads nowadays.

BTW; I did Arah 4 a few times (got my dungeon master last year and Im not a zerk warrior) and the smoothest runs are always with balanced teams. All Zerks tend to fail/skip/pull few mobs quite often. I preffer to pull ten mobs and not fail instead of watching my steps inside, that demands lot of time as well. Though I admit that Simin fight last year was ridiculous. I don’t know how it is today but it did need tonz of damage to get through.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Lokki.1092:

Honestly right now we dont “know” that warriors are the king of DPS. We can see that they do great DPS, but their main achievement is doing great DPS easily. It is very easy to play a berserker PvE Warrior. However we have already seen a necro team DPS vid on Lupi that rivals the fastest Warrior times. The answer is in the details but we dont have a damage meter to know them exactly. The general consensus is a necro can hang with the DPS kings but Warrior is still easier to play with a lower skill ceiling so people want one more.

As for what lilstev said I cant disagree, but I want to get to you that with rampager in existence and the fact that we dont have damage meters not to mention that half your skills deal a lot more condition damage than direct, Full berserker may not be the most DPS a necro can pull solo. Really only you can figure that out for yourself. but berserker/rampager are really as far as you need look for DPS. However like Lilstev said once another condition spammer enters the picture you will loose effectiveness so again it becomes not that berserker deals more damage, but that it’s easier and predictable damage.

Ah – good point.

I always wondered about condition damage builds (I run Rampager’s on my Necro atm) … I haven’t quite worked out what does better damage for me yet. I always assumed (also assuming that condition damage buffs condition damage per stack rather than just adding more stacks) that I’d be better playing to the strengths of Necros to dish out conditions than just DPS.

Yeah condition caps need a redesign – I understand the cap, but not why it’s so limited right now.

I also play an Ele and struggle to survive running zerker gear (yes, I’m still in the learning phase) because they’re downright squishy – they have none of the in-built toughness, vitality or Death Shroud of a Necro.

You can mix and match both, or even possibly better in your case, have two armor sets of either to adapt your builds.

Who knows, they may actually improve the way conditions work, though I wouldn’t bet my life on it.

One thing I’d say: if you love Necromancer, play Necromancer. Don’t let anyone deter you based on some number-crunching or other silly factors. He/she who wouldn’t have you is missing out.

Star Ace.5207:

You can mix and match both, or even possibly better in your case, have two armor sets of either to adapt your builds.

Who knows, they may actually improve the way conditions work, though I wouldn’t bet my life on it.

One thing I’d say: if you love Necromancer, play Necromancer. Don’t let anyone deter you based on some number-crunching or other silly factors. He/she who wouldn’t have you is missing out.

Lol, you haven’t seen me play yet!

But yes, I agree – I love the Necro so that’s what I play. But I am interested in improving as a player and also I’d like to be able to run dungeons with people and pull my weight. I’ll run whatever if nobody cares, but if they do or if we’re lacking in DPS, it’s nice to be able to step up and say I can fill that role.

I seriously hope they do work on conditions because there’s so much potential there going to waste, but I suppose right now it’s not at the top of their priority list, and that’s fair, I guess.

Fact is, my Berserker team will clear any dungeon faster than any ‘balanced team’. Does that mean every Berserker team will be faster than any ‘balanced’ team? No. Skill is a very large factor that needs to be considered, however a common argument that comes up is “good players use good builds, bad players use bad builds”. Good and bad is always subject of efficiency. Why would a good player kitten themselves with stats they don’t need? It seems illogical to me that players who proclaim themselves as ‘good’ players, would use anything other than full offensive gear in dungeons. The reality is that you do not need toughness/vitality/healing power in dungeons. They are stats that act as a crutch for weak(er) play. There is no argument that I can see that would justify a strong player limiting their potential by using gear which doesn’t help them in anyway.

If you are bad at dodging (which unfortunately for those players, means you’re bad at dungeons), use defensive stats, but don’t run around claiming that you’re a better player than someone who is perhaps trying to reach their potential by using the most efficient gear available. Full offensive gear is there for players who wish to not limit themselves in terms of their team contribution.

The objective of a dungeon is to complete it and get the end reward. That isn’t exactly up for debate. The developers designed the dungeons for players to take a party into and complete the assigned content, and be rewarded for it. ‘Good’ gear will help you achieve that objective faster. Bad gear will help less. The only time I can see an argument being made for defensive gear being ‘good’, is when you’re talking about players who don’t have very good situational awareness or game knowledge. In this case, defensive gear will quite likely help the team reach the objective faster as they’ll be spending less time running back from waypoints. Good players do well in both good and bad gear; bad players do bad in good gear and perhaps do ok in bad gear.

If you’re bad at dodging, don’t bring defensive stats, bring defensive skills. I’d rather have a guardian in zerker gear with altruistic healing to cover for his mistakes than a guard in ptv to take an extra hit or two before going down. Or a warrior bringing endure pain to cover for a mistake while still using zerker.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Fact is, my Berserker team will clear any dungeon faster than any ‘balanced team’. Does that mean every Berserker team will be faster than any ‘balanced’ team? No. Skill is a very large factor that needs to be considered, however a common argument that comes up is “good players use good builds, bad players use bad builds”. Good and bad is always subject of efficiency. Why would a good player kitten themselves with stats they don’t need? It seems illogical to me that players who proclaim themselves as ‘good’ players, would use anything other than full offensive gear in dungeons. The reality is that you do not need toughness/vitality/healing power in dungeons. They are stats that act as a crutch for weak(er) play. There is no argument that I can see that would justify a strong player limiting their potential by using gear which doesn’t help them in anyway.

If you are bad at dodging (which unfortunately for those players, means you’re bad at dungeons), use defensive stats, but don’t run around claiming that you’re a better player than someone who is perhaps trying to reach their potential by using the most efficient gear available. Full offensive gear is there for players who wish to not limit themselves in terms of their team contribution.

The objective of a dungeon is to complete it and get the end reward. That isn’t exactly up for debate. The developers designed the dungeons for players to take a party into and complete the assigned content, and be rewarded for it. ‘Good’ gear will help you achieve that objective faster. Bad gear will help less. The only time I can see an argument being made for defensive gear being ‘good’, is when you’re talking about players who don’t have very good situational awareness or game knowledge. In this case, defensive gear will quite likely help the team reach the objective faster as they’ll be spending less time running back from waypoints. Good players do well in both good and bad gear; bad players do bad in good gear and perhaps do ok in bad gear.

But it also seems illogical to me that you believe that 100% of players need to worry about getting a reward ASAP-you seem to imply that that’s what ANet wanted, but it’s not factual (have any proof?) Therefore, a good player may whatever he/she wants that allows him/her to enjoy his/her playing experience to the utmost. In short, not everybody plays the way you do, and you are not crediting the game’s gear variety by not allowing them “sub-par” (in your opinion) gear that may indeed be what’s best for a particular player-not everybody wants to experience GW2 as a speedrun.

I do agree with you that skill=/=gear at all, whether it’s “zerk”, giver’s, settler’s, soldier’s, or anything else.

To be honest, all of this seem like a personality type/preference issue. People should allow each other to be different than they are, because they are different indeed, and that’s fine-and none better than the other.

Endure pain goes beyond the usage in case of mistakes. It can also be used as a DPS improving tool by allowing you to continue damaging the mobs/boss instead of dodging/moving out of the way of some dangerous attack.

Star Ace.5207:

But it also seems illogical to me that you believe that 100% of players need to worry about getting a reward ASAP-you seem to imply that that’s what ANet wanted, but it’s not factual (have any proof?)

That’s not what I implied. Think of it as a trip to work. You have a choice between 3 cars to drive to work in. One car is both fuel-efficient and fast (Berserker), one car is fuel-efficient but slow (Knights), and the other car is neither fuel-efficient nor fast (Magic find). You have an objective which is to get to work from your starting destination, same thing as clearing a dungeon. It has a start and a finish. And ultimately I don’t see why you would choose a slower or less efficient option when the best choice is right there in front of you, just as available as the others.

The objective of a dungeon is to FINISH the dungeon. It is my belief that 100% of players who enter a dungeon SHOULD have the intentions of FINISHING the dungeon.

(The analogy I used could be absolutely terrible, but I’m pretty happy with it for now.)

Though I’d add: I never kick people from my groups unless they’re performing unbearably badly. I don’t particularly care what people do in my runs as long as they don’t make it harder for me to complete it than if I had done it by myself. I do however believe in encouraging people to run what I believe, and the other best dungeon runners believe to be the best gear available for dungeons.

stof.9341:

Endure pain goes beyond the usage in case of mistakes. It can also be used as a DPS improving tool by allowing you to continue damaging the mobs/boss instead of dodging/moving out of the way of some dangerous attack.

Completely right here.

When giving Berserker advice I will often point this out myself. Generally speaking Offensive utility skills are negative DPS because if you instead of using the time to do that skill, Auto attacked generally you would have gained more damage This is not always true but even when it isn’t the damage gain is often negligible. But condition removers, stun breakers, and heals indirect or direct are amazing in berserker builds

Sometimes you really don’t need to dodge roll, just break the cripple and walk out of the circle saving that dodge roll for later, or pop your block/immunity utility managing endurance and saving it for the correct moment while alternating between other defensive skills from weapons or utilities is apart of what makes a good berserker good.

This is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever seen. There being a single stat set to rule them all in an entire secion of PvE gameplay is merely a problem of perception? You’re really making that claim?

While we’re at it, violence is only a perceived problem, so is poverty, and political corruption, in fact let’s just fix everything by changing our outlook. Yeah, that’ll work.

This game made the impossible… I think this is the first MMO out there where a character built exclusively for damage dealing is considered “team contribution” and someone who builds for support is considered selfish… I truly am amazed of how did things turned out for this game.

Mesket.5728:

This game made the impossible… I think this is the first MMO out there where a character built exclusively for damage dealing is considered “team contribution” and someone who builds for support is considered selfish… I truly am amazed of how did things turned out for this game.

It’s because Anet’s attempt at removing the holy trinity roles didn’t work.

it’s not the terrible elitists’ fault that anet catered dungeons to straight zerk dps. maybe if they raised toughness or added protection to bad guys to encourage condi, shorter intervals of smaller damage to encourage healing, maybe some kind of undodgeable super attack to encourage coordinated interrupts? Maybe they should not make projectile reflection so godkitten strong so that the classes who have them are infinitely more desired than classes who don’t.

though one time this elitist nerdy zerk warrior was in my cof p1 group went down to turrets during the first pull. immediately blamed the mesmer for not using feedback. when asked why he didn’t dodge out of the 8 giant red circles he responded “i dps not my job to dodge”. oh you guys are so silly.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mesket.5728:

This game made the impossible… I think this is the first MMO out there where a character built exclusively for damage dealing is considered “team contribution” and someone who builds for support is considered selfish… I truly am amazed of how did things turned out for this game.

It’s because Anet’s attempt at removing the holy trinity roles didn’t work.

Not only it didn’t work… it turned backward basic principles of team work in MMOs. There is 0 team work in GW2…. zero! and the irony behind this is so huge! This game aimed for extreme teamwork and failed so horribly.

Zerker is awesome if you know how to play it. I always prefered to mix a little toughness into my builds to save if I miss a dodge. The problem is not with the gear but with the Elitism mentality the demands that everyone run a certain build cause it is supposedly the best in a game made for casual players. Also the game design favors direct damage builds with bosses that are immune to CC and sometimes even immune to condition damage which IMHO is a major flaw in the game. Not everyone has the skill or the connection speed (lag has killed me on more than 1 occasion) to pull off a zerker build.

Since MF was mentioned earlier in this thread, I can’t help but say my piece about it.
I run with 2 sets of gear, 1 is full MF with MF weapons with luck sigils and full MF Ascended trinkets with infusions. With a full stack of luck I get 198% without any ohter boosts. I will be glad to trade it in for an account wide MF bonus cause at the moment I keep using the same toon all the time cause it is the only one that gives me good drops and I was more that happy to trade a combat stat for it.

However, for all you who say that MF users are nothing but leeches should just sthu and try a set. It might not be a l33t setup but if you build your traits right and L2P your are just as viable as any other non-l33t setup. You can crunch numbers all you want but what really matters is how well you play and you don’t need the best gear for that.

Mesket.5728:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mesket.5728:

This game made the impossible… I think this is the first MMO out there where a character built exclusively for damage dealing is considered “team contribution” and someone who builds for support is considered selfish… I truly am amazed of how did things turned out for this game.

It’s because Anet’s attempt at removing the holy trinity roles didn’t work.

Not only it didn’t work… it turned backward basic principles of team work in MMOs. There is 0 team work in GW2…. zero! and the irony behind this is so huge! This game aimed for extreme teamwork and failed so horribly.

To this day I still get kittened at in AC when I try to show someone how to use the Fiery Greatsword on the burrows.

YOU DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO ILL DO WHAT I WANT AND PLAY MY WAY.

Okay then I’ll just destroy all the burrows myself in seconds while the 4 of you take a minute to take out one.

No, it’s complete leech.

It doesn’t matter how good you are, MF gear stats will have you contributing a hell of a lot less to a dungeon party than pretty much any other gear because one of your stats (MF) is a complete blank that does absolutely nothing for your party in the slightest.

What this forum needs is another thread about Berserker gear.

colesy.8490:

No, it’s complete leech.

It doesn’t matter how good you are, MF gear stats will have you contributing a hell of a lot less to a dungeon party than pretty much any other gear because one of your stats (MF) is a complete blank that does absolutely nothing for your party in the slightest.

Some guildies and I finished CoF1 in 17 mins naked. That’s only 12mins more than a zerker group. We finished CoF1 in 8 mins wearing full MF, thats only 3 mins more than a good zerker group. Not that big a difference. You are entitled to believe what you want and I will not argue the point anymore than it has been already cause it will never end. The fact is that in this game Skill>stats.

Completing a 5-min dungeon in almost double the time isn’t that big a difference?

ok

Julie Yann.5379:

colesy.8490:

No, it’s complete leech.

It doesn’t matter how good you are, MF gear stats will have you contributing a hell of a lot less to a dungeon party than pretty much any other gear because one of your stats (MF) is a complete blank that does absolutely nothing for your party in the slightest.

Some guildies and I finished CoF1 in 17 mins naked. That’s only 12mins more than a zerker group. We finished CoF1 in 8 mins wearing full MF, thats only 3 mins more than a good zerker group. Not that big a difference. You are entitled to believe what you want and I will not argue the point anymore than it has been already cause it will never end. The fact is that in this game Skill>stats.

You just proved that Stats > Skill with your own statement…

You said that no armor took over twice as long as the worst stat set in the game…

A funny thing is that CoF p1 although the most famous zerk home in the game is not THAT dependent on huge DPS because there’s very few fights and lots of walking. Of course once you got the walking part optimized which isn’t hard, you have to resort to improving DPS to make it faster.

Zerk builds get more effective the more bosses you have to fight like say, CoE with the 3 Alphas per run.

Jemmi.6058:

Julie Yann.5379:

colesy.8490:

No, it’s complete leech.

It doesn’t matter how good you are, MF gear stats will have you contributing a hell of a lot less to a dungeon party than pretty much any other gear because one of your stats (MF) is a complete blank that does absolutely nothing for your party in the slightest.

Some guildies and I finished CoF1 in 17 mins naked. That’s only 12mins more than a zerker group. We finished CoF1 in 8 mins wearing full MF, thats only 3 mins more than a good zerker group. Not that big a difference. You are entitled to believe what you want and I will not argue the point anymore than it has been already cause it will never end. The fact is that in this game Skill>stats.

You just proved that Stats > Skill with your own statement…

You said that no armor took over twice as long as the worst stat set in the game…

OK, bad example, I agree that between being naked and having gear on, having gear is better. But the difference between full zerk and full MF isn’t. We have completed every dungeon in this game with full MF parties and none of them took hours and none of them had a bunch of wipes. When we do Arah the difference bewtween the 2 is about 5 mins. I guess the biggest difference is playing with an organized group or pugs.

Make a video of your full MF Arah runs (preferably p4) and then I’ll believe you. Rangers have just been accepted in to the dungeon meta because of evidence put forward in their favour (frost spirit, spotter, sword/warhorn having strong dps), so if MF supporters could post videos of full MF groups tackling high level content, that would be great.

colesy.8490:

Make a video of your full MF Arah runs (preferably p4) and then I’ll believe you. Rangers have just been accepted in to the dungeon meta because of evidence put forward in their favour (frost spirit, spotter, sword/warhorn having strong dps), so if MF supporters could post videos of full MF groups tackling high level content, that would be great.

There is no real point is proving anything now since Anet is getting rid of it all anyway and I do not feel to need to prove anything, I know I have done it. That comment about rangers is exactly what is wrong with this game. The elitist mentality dictating what kind of build/gear set up is allow in a game tailored for casual players. As much as I have a distaste for the hate on MF, I despise the hate against entire professions even more.

colesy.8490:

Make a video of your full MF Arah runs (preferably p4) and then I’ll believe you. Rangers have just been accepted in to the dungeon meta because of evidence put forward in their favour (frost spirit, spotter, sword/warhorn having strong dps), so if MF supporters could post videos of full MF groups tackling high level content, that would be great.

Rangers have long been one of the highest DPS PvE classes, even without the help of their pets. The closed minded “ZERK WARRIOR OMG ONLY GEAR CHECK PLZ PING YOU GONE GET KICKED” crowd was just too blind and clueless to recognize the facts put right in front of their face for almost a year now.

I also know people who have run Arah tons of times on mixed gear setups, including MF. In case you didn’t notice, Knights gear and Explorers gear have the same damage output. Explorers gets MF at the expense of Toughness. To imply that you can only run Arah with zerk gear is borderline brain damaged.

/rolleyes

@Julie
Right, so I’m just going to assume your MF runs actually sucked since you’re too lazy to make a video.

And no, I’m not joking.

If I’m shown evidence which tellsm e something contrary to my initially held beliefs, I don’t mind accepting them. Rangers being legit was a bitter pill to swallow but I accepted it, if I can be shown that MF gear isn’t actually terrible and player skill can make it half decent then I’ll accept that too.

colesy.8490:

Right, so I’m just going to assume your MF runs actually sucked since you’re too lazy to make a video.

And no, I’m not joking.

If I’m shown evidence which tellsm e something contrary to my initially held beliefs, I don’t mind accepting them. Rangers being legit was a bitter pill to swallow but I accepted it, if I can be shown that MF gear isn’t actually terrible and player skill can make it half decent then I’ll accept that too.

I never have, and never will run MF gear. It’s stupid to me. Just as stupid as insisting that zerk gear is the only viable gear in PvE.

Saying that MF gear is “terrible” when players run the same damage ability with knights gear with great success all the time….makes no sense. MF gear is selfish to a degree, but we all play this game for different reasons. I can’t stand the stuff, and I tell people to take if off if they’re running with me in groups.

It also allows you to deal a lot more damage than other gear types. Damage of Clerics vs Explorers? Explorers wins. Valkyrie? Explorers wins. Knights? Explorers ties. the list goes on.

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Make a video of your full MF Arah runs (preferably p4) and then I’ll believe you. Rangers have just been accepted in to the dungeon meta because of evidence put forward in their favour (frost spirit, spotter, sword/warhorn having strong dps), so if MF supporters could post videos of full MF groups tackling high level content, that would be great.

Rangers have long been one of the highest DPS PvE classes, even without the help of their pets. The closed minded “ZERK WARRIOR OMG ONLY GEAR CHECK PLZ PING YOU GONE GET KICKED” crowd was just too blind and clueless to recognize the facts put right in front of their face for almost a year now.

I also know people who have run Arah tons of times on mixed gear setups, including MF.

/rolleyes

If rangers made more effort to make videos showing that they were not terrible and so many ranger players weren’t so FREAKING AWFUL then they would have been accepted ages ago.

The problem is, building for strong DPS requires melee, and like 99.9% of rangers in this game are content camping their wrongbow with bear pet which is why there is such a strong stigma attached to the class, and I’ll never accept a ranger in an experienced group I make unless I already know them or they outlined their build and gear upon joining because good rangers are about as rare as precursors in this game.

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Make a video of your full MF Arah runs (preferably p4) and then I’ll believe you. Rangers have just been accepted in to the dungeon meta because of evidence put forward in their favour (frost spirit, spotter, sword/warhorn having strong dps), so if MF supporters could post videos of full MF groups tackling high level content, that would be great.

Rangers have long been one of the highest DPS PvE classes, even without the help of their pets. The closed minded “ZERK WARRIOR OMG ONLY GEAR CHECK PLZ PING YOU GONE GET KICKED” crowd was just too blind and clueless to recognize the facts put right in front of their face for almost a year now.

I also know people who have run Arah tons of times on mixed gear setups, including MF.

/rolleyes

If rangers made more effort to make videos showing that they were not terrible and so many ranger players weren’t so FREAKING AWFUL then they would have been accepted ages ago.

The problem is, building for strong DPS requires melee, and like 99.9% of rangers in this game are content camping their wrongbow with bear pet which is why there is such a strong stigma attached to the class, and I’ll never accept a ranger in an experienced group I make unless I already know them or they outlined their build and gear upon joining because good rangers are about as rare as precursors in this game.

Rangers have the same “awful” ratio as any other class. The problem is that people refused to run with them a lot of times, and never saw that they were, in fact, not awful.

Also, the highest DPS rangers are definitely not limited to melee. There are plenty of rangers running long bow that can deal absolutely stupid amounts of damage.