Guild Wars 2

A lot of the patch changes today have given us many new options in terms of developing a unique and distinct appearance, but along with these welcomed changes come some (for me) unforeseen and fairly negative effects on the role-playing elements of the game.

Plenty of people have already mentioned how the megaserver will split up the RP populations who used to band together on a couple of servers (TC and Piken iirc), but I am not on one of these servers and I do not tend to hang out and RP (in terms of speaking in character, etc.) But I do value many aspects of role-playing in a game like this, especially in terms of immersion and progression. I play mostly with a very small guild of close, real-world friends and we develop little storylines across our characters, etc., much of which is naturally tied to appearance.

The more I log through my toons and play with the new content post-patch, the more I keep encountering these little consequences in today’s changes that have a negative impact on both casual RP (and therefore immersion) and character progression. Some examples:

The decimation of traits for leveling characters (Character Progression)

This one is mind blowing to me – you do not get a single trait point until level 30. You are flat-out removing one of the most interesting parts of leveling from the game until people are nearly halfway done with their characters. If you want build diversity, then please allow people to start working with and understanding builds as early as possible. This, to me, is the worst decision of the patch.

Simple solution: Give people one point every 5 levels starting at level 10 (mirroring the old system) – honestly I would rather go back to the 1 point per level method – it makes so much more sense (you gain a level, you get a little more powerful). I do, however, fully applaud the ability to reset traits whenever you want, and the ability to “+ or -” your way through builds (which mirrors the original Guild Wars system much more), but why that simple change had to come with the plethora of other bad decisions (to both the system design and the system interface imho) is beyond me. It would also be nice to be able to save “builds” like we could in GW1 – but that is a bit tangential.

The loss of town-clothes and the removal of the toy slot in our equipment (RP/immersion):

The biggest advantage of the town-clothes was to have a secondary outfit you could swap to – a way to go from a combat-heavy look to a non-combat style without transmuting. Many characters that looked like Juggernauts on the battlefield looked much more like friends you would enjoy drink and revelry with while safe inside of a keep. Now we all have to choose one look, and it seems that most people will simply keep their “battle armor” look and forgo the casual options.

In conjunction with losing our secondary outfits (and a lot of the customization we had in terms of dye for these outfits), we also now have to use our bag space to carry our toys around – and we can no longer use our toys via keybinds (you could outfit swap/hit 1 before the patch – now you must open your inventory, double click the item to receive a bundle and then hit “1” to use it. Way more clunky and far less appealing without my alternate outfit to accompany my witches broom

Furthermore, I do not want my level 80 exotic/ascended helms to look like the launch weekend baseball cap, etc. – so now many of these these holiday hats that were once fun and silly have become a mostly useless permanent xmute that very few people are going to want to apply to their sweet lvl 80 gear.

Simple solution: Give us back the alt/town outfits – it would have worked so beautifully with this new wardrobe system I am a little shocked that it was completely removed. It would also return our toy slot so we can easily store and access our favorite non-combat items.

I guess this post is already getting long, so I’ll quit my patch-day whining while I am still (not) ahead. I am grateful that the devs are interested in improving the game’s structure, I love that new content gets rolled out, but I feel like some of the aspects of today’s patch were wholly unnecessary and – in many cases – absolutely detrimental to the “RP” part of this RPG.

There are plenty of other aspects of this patch which are great, and plenty of other things I didn’t mention which I feel are horrible (maybe b/c I am a boon-based support Guardian) – but those will be fleshed out in excruciating detail by the theorycrafters.

What I hate to see is the spirit of the RP being watered down, true character progression being sacrificed in order to (I guess?) balance end game play, and all of the little fun items I have collected since early access feeling much more like annoying bank clutter rather than fun-to-share toys.

Rather than start a new thread, I’ll chime in here because it seems to be related.

I logged on and I noticed that my character’s Personality information was no longer listed in the Hero panel beside the class icon. Is this a bug? Was it moved? Was it removed?

Assuming it to be the last, may we ask why? Granted, Personality was not a particularly deep or well-developed aspect of the game, but it was kinda neat, and it surely wasn’t harming anybody. (Of note, I just created a new character and the option to select one’s Personality is still in the process; it’s just gone after that.) I read the update notes and saw no reference to the issue at all, but I may have missed something.

I would expect that I am not alone — in fact I found this assumption in no small part on the initial inclusion of the Personality system — in appreciating the ability to define, even superficially, lesser attributes of the character through whom I am experiencing this created world. Was it simply too much wasted memory/space? Is it still there somewhere and I am making silliness of nothing?

I can’t really agree with traits. I think its really preference. There is a nice synchronization though with unlocking traits at 30, because thats when you finish the part of your personal story that makes it unique from everyones else, and now begin dungeons and unlocking traits. Perhaps putting traits in that early would be confusing to new players. Traits wouldn’t really make a difference for a the soft kitteny content at that low a level.

I agree with everything you said. I loved the game to bits when I started playing, but it seems like everything I loved about it or had hopes for, gets ruined or scrapped. I enjoy RPing, and I love leveling characters — both got nerfed so extremely heavily with this patch and shown so much negligence, that I don’t even have the words to describe how utterly disappointed I am. I have so many alts that I wanted to level and RP on, now I don’t want to do any of that anymore. Why bother, if leveling is now a boring chore and roleplayers get kitten on and neglected even worse than before?

Apparently the character alignment (charming / dignified / ferocious, etc) was also removed with this patch. No big surprise here, since that was never utilised anyways. Again, one of the main aspects I was looking forward to when I bought a game. Such an utter waste.

Skylight – I hear you on the preference thing, but here is my rebuttal to other points you raise:

First, would you rather have newer players confused by traits at level 10 when it they are facing easy content and playing mostly solo PVE or at level 30 when content becomes more difficult and it impacts other players?

The level 10 system certainly seemed to work for the past 18 months (not to mention in virtually any other MMO), and the trait change had enough of an impact on the low level, kitteny content that anet scaled down low level mobs to compensate…

I don’t agree with the single point traits. There was no reason to have a trait line be anything other than a multiple of five, and you were severely limiting yourself if you did that. I also see where ArenaNet is coming from wrt starting at 30. By then, you should be familiar and comfortable with skill points, your class, and combat in general. That’s the foundation to using traits effectively. If you don’t understand those things, you end up making poor trait decisions. Starting at 30 gives people some time to get used to everything.

I totally agree that there is no point in spending 2 points in one tree and 3 in another, but there is absolutely value (imo) in incrementally gaining points per level. For one, it is incentive to level – “man I want that next point so I can get X”…

I also feel that when you gradually progress through trait lines while leveling you are much more likely to fully understand them. Its a key part of the leveling experience that I lament seeing “dumbed down” just b/c (allegedly) new players can’t handle spending their trait points.

I just don’t see it…

Look at everyone being so uncommonly civil!

However much I may dislike it, we may be overstating the trait issue. I assume we are well past level 30 and can only view it as it hinders our planning for alts. A new player is simply going to accept it for what it is. That said, I do object to any invocation of “confusion” on said player’s part. I’ve seen this justification a number of times through various MMO’s, and every time it rings false. I am not so long-standing a player that I do not remember hitting level 11, and I can tell you that as soon as I glanced over the trait panel, I understood it (“Five points in any row unlocks this drupelet here, so you’ll want to do five at a time for efficiency, etc.”), and I ain’t the type to be mistaken for a genius. Where are these players not only so dim as to be confounded by a system involving multiples of five, but also so short-tempered as to quit in such a state?

I also had a solid grasp of the combat system long before I sniffed level 30, and I’m by no stretch a gamer. I have no problem with traits changing to a single point system; it’s no more or less intuitive. I do balk at the level 30 restriction. In a game already rather tilted toward max-level content (and understandably so; whatever your payment model, you’ve got to keep ‘em playing) it seems intended to skew things further toward late-game payoff. It’s not just that you start getting points at 30; notice also that you get 43% of your trait points over the last 9 levels of play.

In the old system, by the time you hit 80, you were pretty well established in what you were doing. Now, one does not maximize one’s definition (to phrase it badly) until the last steps. It does represent a stylistic shift.

But rambling to no effect aside, I would like to highlight one item from the original poster’s musings, which was the concept of “saving one’s builds.” Yes, yes, please! On the agenda with that one. Ideally it would take the form of three or so options on some panel, but at the very least let us distinguish between more than sPvP and everything else. My ardor for defensive play would earn me plenty of scorn in the world of 5-mans, but in WvW I can save lives like an Ascended Seatbelt, and (in my own mind at least) help turn the tide of battle. Refunding on the fly is nice, but that plus swapping to a different set is better.

the thing is no one ever complained about the trait level requirements.

When i was playing my first character, i barely knew what i was doing event related. i just ran around and explore. This system forces players to sacrifice gold/SP’s, which they will both very much need or participate in events they don’t know a thing about / are not prepared for.

A new player will take this system for granted, but will also judge the game based on this system. which right now, is really new player unfriendly.

How much I loved to RP on this game, because of the lore and the universe. How disappointed I am to see that roleplaying is becoming more and more difficult… When I come in city with my warrior, I don’t expect him to stay in his heavy armor, I liked to switch to my Winter outfit and look a bit fancy, with the dyes I myself chose for each piece of cloth. A thing that I can’t do anymore. The customization, along with the roleplay are the two things that are disappearing with this patch, and I’m very saddened about it, I had so many ideas of characters going on.

This game should have been categorized as an MMOTPG. Where the “T” is for trolling! It’s what happens when most of the dev’s are PvP players. If you aren’t killing something 24/7 for the lulz and tearz then you aren’t playing as intended. #sadfact

This will probably be unpopular to say, but I don’t see the point of RP in MMOs.

Don’t get me wrong, I love roleplay. I was an active theatre participant in highschool and college and I’ve been playing a number of roleplaying games such as D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, Call of Cthulhu etc for years. However, the format of table top games is much more supportive of an RP system.

MMOs are awful for roleplay in that they first lack the consensus about RP to make any level of emersion possible, and second because all of the stats and gear tend to get people focused more on builds and competition than on the RP (what would be referred to in table top games as being a munchkin). Also, because of the lack of regulation on character design, comparatively, many characters, even those attempting to RP, are pretty immersion breaking as well.

I don’t think its really possible to make this game a good RP environment without ruining things for non-RPers. So I recommend just enjoying the story and not worrying about active RP outside personal story.

Fredgerd, for my purposes, I agree that the MMO is a very poor medium for Role-Playing. If it’s to some people’s tastes, though, I don’t begrudge them their enjoyment in the least. I think the point is that through the changes these players’ pastime was injured, and from our perspective as players there was no visible gain in the particular implementation.

Fredgerd, where is the immersion if you aren’t “PLAYING” your character?

One more on the trait topic while the latest build installs:

What happens to our lowbie alts (or new players’ mains) on those first-time story mode dungeons where you are joined by 80s? Already the gulf between someone with 70 trait points and someone with 25 or 30 was significant . . . but now that someone else has a full 14 and the newcomer has 1? One would hope the expected contribution imbalance isn’t so much as to dissuade high level people from even joining such an adventure.

The first post here nails it.
As someone who first joined the game during the sale last week, having my lv20-something characters knocked back to “no traits for you” status has felt really lame.

Levelling feels like more of a grind when you don’t have that carrot-on-a-stick in front of you to chase, even if you had planned your build in advance and knew that the next trait point was just going to be a +10 to precision or whatever – It was still something to do in the hero menu when you levelled up.

Now a level-up is just a change to a boring, arbitrary number for 80-90% of the levelling experience. There’s no carrot, there’s nothing exciting about the number increasing, it’s just a step on a long ladder towards 80.

Right now, the differences between my main character (Thief) in Levelling and in PvP are like night and day; because in sPvP I get to have fun with traits and all their associated perks and change to the second-to-second gameplay; while in levelling I get to… grind with the same basic attacks and very few changes over the many hours it takes to cap level. Yay.

Similarly, the cost of maintaining a character’s appearance while leveling just feels like being nickel & dimed now more than before.

This patch is not a good experience for a new player – Take it from a new player.

That is a big part of it Ocosh – some of these changes really leave me scratching my head. I feel like we lost plenty of functionality for absolutely no reason.

Don’t get me wrong, we gained some cool tweaks too – but I feel like we lost as much as we gained in this patch, and I feel it puts us on that path towards over-simplification (of builds, traits, etc.) that has driven me away from some other great MMOs.

And what do we gain from this trait overhaul? Build diversity? I see little in this patch to help that tbh…

Take this as an example: the nerf to Zerkers that is supposed to make it less dominant/desirable? Most likely it will instead make Zerker gear requisite in dungeons, as the across the board decrease in DPS means that groups can no longer afford to carry kittens with them (there are already many posts speaking to this – “Zerk or kick”).

To be fair, the Sigil and Rune changes are far too new to judge at this point, but the changes to boon duration was a huge smack across my Guardian’s face. And what do I get in return? A 3g trait that gives me more health? Thanks…

Okay, okay – now I am starting to whine – and I don’t want to spiral down that path…

Back to the cost/benefit discussion:

What is truly astounding is they seemed to have dumbed-down the trait system while simultaneously making it less friendly to newer players (which is typically the argument for simplifying character building – to make it more accessible to new players).

Perhaps all of these changes are a prelude to other upcoming system changes that we are unaware of – and those changes will bring greater clarity to what we saw today, but I am wary of what these future changes might look like after seeing today’s overhaul first-hand.

Role playing is a explorer type player thing. The type of thing that built WOW and hurt WOW when it was harmed. Advancers tend not to care as much about role playing. I think we can have both but it needs two different types of game inside this game. What is Explorer vs Advancer see next.

These changes are Advancer friendly type of changes. Yes just like in entertainment business giving the audience what it thinks it wants can backfire when you hurt the other part of your fans. These changes are Role playing hostile as explorers are your role players.

It seams that developers here and at WOW are ignorant of the many articles on the four traits of players. These being pvp, Social, Advancers and Explorers. There is even a quiz that ranks how much of each of these traits you have. The key to this distinction is though is what makes Advancers happy makes Explorers unhappy and even worse makes Explorers quit. Advancers are the players who want to level fast, grab achievements and don’t care much for anything that gets in their way to max level. Advancers typically don’t like story quest type things. Advancers want things that make them level up faster and if they have to will grind the same thing over and over to get levels and achievements they want. Advancers will buy things like experience boosts, crafting boost and things that make getting to their goal faster. A comparison is players who like cheat codes or people who seek out spoilers telling them secrets of what is coming up in a story they following.

Explorers don’t want to level up fast (even if new player Explorers think Advancer wanted changes like faster leveling or exp boosters good the Explorer player will then find the game boring and quit) Explores like to role play and love story quest things. Explorers want a challenge as they level up and are in no hurry to make max level. Explorers need to hit heart merchants at the level intended. Explorers like me will explore current LA even though there is no reward for doing so. Explores like things like having to visit a class trainer frequently as it makes them fell like they are in fantasy story. Explorers want to talk to all the NPCs and a pure Explorer has no interest in 80 level content after last story quest wanting to start a new character that levels up in a way that a new player would. Thus no help from their earlier characters. In fact for Explorers having leveling up for later characters should be harder. In example a new player Explorer might need free repairs item 50 uses and a better set of starting items. But later characters need repair costs both to make the story feel real and make it more of challenge. A comparison to explores are the people who would never use a cheat code and people who hate spoilers.

Yes we can please both but Advancers proved that they will complain but play a explorer friendly slow leveling game like WOW at start. But explorers proved with WOW’s massive player loss they will not complain just leave when things go Advancer friendly. Actually proved a Business degree maximum be careful giving complainers what they want because complainers can be a small part of your customer base and changes to make complainers happy often make the other customers quit not complain. Thus poll and study before you make changes not just read suggestions.

Now this game probably does not have that many explorers to begin with as leveling up a boring fast leveling Advancer friendly heart system where you just need to go to each place and kill something without even a story make you feel in the story first visit to the heart vender. Advancers just want to kill and go to the next. Explorers want to do all the different tasks and don’t want to complete a heart by accident doing nearby event.

My suggestion just let the Advancers after a few weeks start one or two 80 already characters and buy more max level characters and skip the story quest system all together. Maybe have something so you can tell how a character became 80 but tell complainers about slowness of leveling sorry that part of game not designed for you. (some achievers will grind it anyway to get the leveled up indicator on their 80’s just don’t change things to make it faster or less achiever annoying) Keep combined achievements but also keep a separate character achievements. Have each character have their own currency instead of combined with rather a money transfer function or just let players mail money and currency to their other characters. And if possible keep a tally of which of each players characters gathered what and expended what resource so if your a purist like me you can not use another characters gathering. Yes right now I am tracking how much each of my two characters make in Karma and money so I can avoid having the higher level help the lower level.