Guild Wars 2

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Harper.4173:

The GW1 system was designed for a completely different game with a completely different type of “average player” playing it.

This system we have now – both stat-wise and skill-wise is designed to be as “dummy proof” as possible so terribly bad people can still perform and don’t drop the game.

That’s the short answer.

That’s an unfortunate statement, and it’s one that really cuts down to the bitter heart of the situation.

I was actually discussing MMO design with one of my friends, and when I brought up the possibility of an MMO structured around tanks that body-block and shield through position, he shot the idea down as being too difficult for the masses. “MMO players are idiots, and an MMO not designed for idiots will fail.”

I’m going to take a different stance on MMO communities however. My answer is this “MMO communities are idiotic because MMOs are designed for the idiotic.” When a developer assumes that their playerbase will be unintelligent, that is precisely what they will get. Have a little faith in your playerbase in game design, and you’ll get a more skilled one.

The problem is there are more people in the “not skilled gamers” category than there are in the skilled ones category.

And since games are now made mostly for profit you want as many players as possible – and that means making a game that the non-skilled majority can enjoy.
Because their money spends just as well and they’re quite a bit of players.

Back before the year 2003-2004 games were made for gamers – actual people that cared about games, played them religiously and generally were pretty good at it.

A while after that all this changed – as companies figured out that making the game easier and more appealing to the less skilled gamers means you can get their money too.

Think about it this way. I want to make a game.

I can make it be a game that requires thought , skill, ability, knowledge and whatnot.
I can have a small or very small player base that is quite skilled and that enjoys the game.

Most of the “bad players” won’t pick it up based on reviews or simply won’t keep playing it because they can’t have fun with it. Some will try to improve – most will just move on.

Or I can make a game that’s pretty much easy, that anyone can beat and gives a good time to just about anybody regardless of how good they perform.
And a lot of people will buy it and play it and feel good about themselves for beating it and probably recommend it to friends.

Games are about enabling a power fantasy and a game that makes you feel like a super kitten awesome guy and tells you that you are that super awesome person is a game that’s going to sell regardless of how easy it is.

It’s very effective to make the game simple so people can keep feeling good about themselves and keep spending their cash on your game.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Vayne.8563:

The big thing for me isn’t the stat system itself. It’s that none of those stats were tied to armor.

It’s all very nice to be able to change traits outside of combat, but carrying around 2, 3 sets of armor for different builds is just annoying (and I won’t do it).

And it got downright evil when ascended armor was added. Especially as a light armor class.

No class is as stat-flexible (and thus reliant on experimentation) as the Elementalist, and no class pays more for their armor pieces than the Elementalist, Mesmer, and Necromancer. Paying over 500g for a single set of best-in-stat gear is absurd.

Prepare yourselves for the biggest convenience carrot in the game to be added in a few years : Legendary Armor – which gives you the convenience of being able to switch stats on the fly.

I’ve already started grinding for it – if you plan on sticking with the game I’d recommend saving that gold.

SYPHA.9283:

Harper.4173:

The GW1 system was designed for a completely different game with a completely different type of “average player” playing it.

This system we have now – both stat-wise and skill-wise is designed to be as “dummy proof” as possible so terribly bad people can still perform and don’t drop the game.

That’s the short answer.

Well that hasnt worked either. More and more people drop every day. Because it is soooo dumbed down.

Yes and no to that. Some people leave but I’m pretty sure for each hardcore veteran leaving there are at least a couple of casuals happily going about their business without a care in the world.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

SYPHA.9283:

Harper.4173:

The GW1 system was designed for a completely different game with a completely different type of “average player” playing it.

This system we have now – both stat-wise and skill-wise is designed to be as “dummy proof” as possible so terribly bad people can still perform and don’t drop the game.

That’s the short answer.

Well that hasnt worked either. More and more people drop every day. Because it is soooo dumbed down.

There is no such thing as a game that appeals to everyone. By attempting to do so, you only make a mediocre game for everyone. Better to know your audience and appeal to them, as the first game did.

The problem is that the audience isn’t us – the more knowledgeable, challenge seeking, skilled gamers.

The audience is Casual Carl ( No offense to anyone with that name) with a bone or two thrown in for the other more “hardcore players” to maybe keep them on board too.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

For those not familiar with it, Guild Wars 1 used a five-attribute system, with each profession having its own.

{snip}

In short

Guild Wars 1’s system was about doing your role(s) – defined by your skills – the way you wished in your own specific way. The Guild Wars 2 system is all about min-maxing to a role defined by your stats – and the game has suffered for it.

I disagree, the game has not suffered for it at all. In GW2 you have so much more you can tailor and it isn’t restricted to a rigid class system like GW1. Certainly in GW1 you could focus more on your set role but that’s why GW2 is better. There are no roles except those that you want to do in any class you care to play.

Min/Maxing is the staple of most good RPGs and GW2 follows that philosophy and creates a world where class is just how you do combat, and how well you do it is based on a more complex stat structure. In your example an Elementalist is not relegated to doing only their attunements and only able to pick one. Instead they do them all and tailor how they affect combat by manipulating the stats they have assigned.

I’ve played both GW1 and GW2 and of them both I think GW2 is the better system. Not perfect mind you but much more flexible and fun.

Peace.

SYPHA.9283:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

SYPHA.9283:

Harper.4173:

The GW1 system was designed for a completely different game with a completely different type of “average player” playing it.

This system we have now – both stat-wise and skill-wise is designed to be as “dummy proof” as possible so terribly bad people can still perform and don’t drop the game.

That’s the short answer.

Well that hasnt worked either. More and more people drop every day. Because it is soooo dumbed down.

There is no such thing as a game that appeals to everyone. By attempting to do so, you only make a mediocre game for everyone. Better to know your audience and appeal to them, as the first game did.

Never a truer statement. But, obviously they aren’t appealing to the masses, that’s apparent by the mass exodus and the crazy long queue times. Appealing to a select few “pro” players is going to be the games demise. Well, whats left of the community anyway.

Sorry but not seeing a “mass exodus” but we can agree to disagree.

What I have seen is many bored players (i.e. veterans with ridiculous AP totals), that want something that GW2 is not, rage quit. Most saying so on these forums, yet never leaving due to their “hope that things will change.” Meaning they hope for a WoW like endgame … which was stated at the very beginning GW2 would never have.

As for this system being dumb down, certainly they did change what I feel was a working system with the NPE changes but that only applies to those in beginner areas. The upper levels haven’t changed much and need skill to complete (and before you say they don’t ask your self how easy was it for you in the beginning) and help from others. A good setup still takes consideration and the right stat/trait/armor/weapon/trinks combination. For those that want a challenge try thinking out side of the box. You still can in the game. Doing Zerker with all your characters is pretty bland and other setups provide interesting challenges.

Does GW2 appeal to everyone, nope. Does it appeal to me (and others), yep.

Peace.

I feel that it would be remiss not to point out that Guild Wars 1, throughout its various iterations, featured incredibly broken, gamebreaking builds.

The main flaw of GW2’s attributes is that you can wear offensive stats in defensive gear and vice-versa:

• Armor should have ONLY had defensive stats.
• Weapons should have ONLY had offensive stats.
• For trinkets, 1 ring and accessory for offensive, 1 ring and accessory for defense, and back item and amulet for utility stats and effects.
• Profession’s trait lines should not have given stats, and be just for traits affecting the profession’s mechanics, its skills and effects and their behavior.

Then players would have picked the build, and for gear the kind of offense they want, the kind of defense they want, and then utilities to help shape their build.

Instead, now people can go all out for one thing, and where that works, it works too well.

Castrin.8972:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

For those not familiar with it, Guild Wars 1 used a five-attribute system, with each profession having its own.

{snip}

In short

Guild Wars 1’s system was about doing your role(s) – defined by your skills – the way you wished in your own specific way. The Guild Wars 2 system is all about min-maxing to a role defined by your stats – and the game has suffered for it.

I disagree, the game has not suffered for it at all. In GW2 you have so much more you can tailor and it isn’t restricted to a rigid class system like GW1. Certainly in GW1 you could focus more on your set role but that’s why GW2 is better. There are no roles except those that you want to do in any class you care to play.

Min/Maxing is the staple of most good RPGs and GW2 follows that philosophy and creates a world where class is just how you do combat, and how well you do it is based on a more complex stat structure. In your example an Elementalist is not relegated to doing only their attunements and only able to pick one. Instead they do them all and tailor how they affect combat by manipulating the stats they have assigned.

I’ve played both GW1 and GW2 and of them both I think GW2 is the better system. Not perfect mind you but much more flexible and fun.

Peace.

There are two types of customization at play here. Active customization and passive customization, namely.

With 8 customizable skills on only two restrictions (one optional elite and the need to have all skills within your two class choices), Guild Wars 1 had the superior active customization. That is not up for debate. It’s objective. Guild Wars 2 allows you 6-7 points of active customization (weapon choice and slot skills), but all of these choices are restricted. Furthermore, most slot choices in Guild Wars 2 are effectively decided for the player in regards to the type of damage they wish to deal. A weapon is generally only utilized in its respective damage type (direct or condition), and will only rarely be utilized by the other, barring hybrid builds. The same can often be said of elites, and sometimes even utilities. At this point, most “choice” becomes the illusion of choice, and that’s without even mentioning that there is a restricting factor on every single skill slot and a low pool of skills and weapons to choose from in these. Simply put, the active customization of Guild Wars 2 is terrible.

Passive customization is where Guild Wars 2 may have an edge, but this is very much a matter of taste. So let’s simply sum up what each one does. Guild Wars 1’s passive customization was comprised of runes/insignias (more simplified), two different categories of sigils (weapon parts), and stat allocation. Guild Wars 2’s is runes, sigils, traits, and stat allocation. Each has their own respective strength here. Guild Wars 2 characters effectively have tons of passive strengths, whereas Guild Wars 1 characters have a greater degree of effectiveness distribution via their stat system.

With Guild Wars 2, we see a much greater degree of passive abilities via the trait tree, but are these meaningful in creating a playstyle? The answer to this is sometimes. The trait tree is primarily full of three categories of traits – numbers traits, playstyle traits, and useless traits. Of the useful traits, many of these (and many of the most effective traits) are numbers traits – those that tweak damage, cooldowns, hard stats, or other non-defining factors. These do not help a player to determine their playstyle in any meaningful way. It is only the minority of traits – those that do provide interesting effects (such as Evasive Arcana), that actually shape how a player plays. Unfortunately, stats once again serve as a rut in the system. By attaching stats to the trait tree, Anet effectively limited the number of viable trait builds that can be created by creating wasted stats when taking certain trees or requiring certain trait paths to min/max your desired role.=

Now, this had never even really been the question. The point of the thread is “which is better. System A (example: Fire Magic, Air Magic, Water Magic, Earth Magic, Energy Storage), or System B (Power, Precision, Toughness, Condition Damage, Prowess, Healing Power, Boon Duration, X attribute).” The better system in any game is the one that creates more variety. And System A undoubtedly does. Why? Because it allows for a layer of definition on top of the active customization that does not undermine it. Active customization is the rule of playstyle depth, and Guild Wars 1 understood this and built around it, rather than attempting to box it in through slot restrictions, restrictive stats, and content that explicitly forces certain choices out (via condition immunity, crit immunity, Defiant, and other bad mechanics).

This is the truest post on this forum. Hopefully ArenaNet will listen and make it more like GW1. Because GW1 was amazing and no one really cared what build you used, unless you did hardcore content or PvP.

I agree to the OP… GW1 system was faaaar superior to GW2 system.

Stats tied to gear… is mediocre
It’s basically a farm for armour, not because of the skins but because of the stats it has.
Instead of enjoying your time playing you’re forced to grab stats. And if you make alts you can begin the process all over again.

Guild Wars 1 had one single purpose for armour and weapons: the armour value/attack value they had. And those high rating armour/weapon were fairly easy to get too). There was no such thing as berserker’s, carrion, rabid, cleric, dire, sentinel, celestial… to farm for. You simply had attributes that were free for the resetting whenever you wished to reset them. Runes were also there, but we have them today aswell.

Gw1 system has downsides too you know. Like low hp professions like ele, had a hard time using the -3 stat 75 hp sigil. But other professino like necro, (with minions who tank for him), could easely take 13 (max) +3 (minus hp but who cares, your minions tanks). He could even then use that buff masochism, +2 further in stats, making it a +18 whopping. Other profs had to rely on 122 or +13+2, wich was lot lower, and kinda punishing.

Gw1 has it’s strengths, but also weaknesses. The grass is always greener on other side. The thing you don’t have (gw1 atm, i’m sure most here aren’t playing it, so it feels like you don’t have it), feel more important, then the things you have, and others dont. To put things in perspective.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Gw1 system has downsides too you know. Like low hp professions like ele, had a hard time using the -3 stat 75 hp sigil. But other professino like necro, (with minions who tank for him), could easely take 13 (max) +3 (minus hp but who cares, your minions tanks). He could even then use that buff masochism, +2 further in stats, making it a +18 whopping. Other profs had to rely on 122 or +13+2, wich was lot lower, and kinda punishing.

Gw1 has it’s strengths, but also weaknesses. The grass is always greener on other side. The thing you don’t have (gw1 atm, i’m sure most here aren’t playing it, so it feels like you don’t have it), feel more important, then the things you have, and others dont. To put things in perspective.

There were no low/high hp professions in Guild Wars 1. Health was normalized. Now, armor numbers were different. And how is this any different from the Guild Wars 2 system, where low health/armor professions have a more difficult time making use of berserker gear, while other professions (like the warrior or the high-safety Mesmer) have a much easier time? I’ll answer that for you – it’s much less extreme.

This isn’t a case of “the grass looks greener.” No, it actually was greener. Deep build customization was a thing. Adapting to entire areas/missions was a thing. Teamwork was a thing. Dungeon content that didn’t devolve into stacking was a thing. Zones that didn’t get zerged to death were a thing. Actually receiving expansions was gasp a thing.

And there is no home for the Guild Wars 1 player. They can’t just go back to Guild Wars 1 – it doesn’t have the population to hold up its PvP or its elite PvE content. Guild Wars 2 is a completely different, and in many ways inferior game. Other MMOs are a laughing stock of bad design. The Guild Wars 1 vet community is, simply put, homeless and angry – and rightfully so.

I don’t think it’s the same GW1 team that developed GW2.

In GW1 you could customize your entire skill bar. An elementalist could for example specialize in air.
GW1 had much more skills to choose from, elites were much more interesting.
GW1 had huge hardcore dungeons with a much darker tone.
GW1 had balanced GvG that is still light years beyond GW2 PvP.
GW1 had party of 8 peoples.
Reall party collaboration thanks to the trinity system or healer/dps/tank.
GW1 story was much better.
GW1 had new content released as expansion.
GW1 had no gem store kitten, everything was available by playing the game.
…and so much more some of us were lucky enough to experience.

GW2 is more similar to the other MMO on the market and much less original in that regard. It has a great field blasting and dodging mechanic but a terrible class balance which always benefit stacking groups. Also it went overboard with immobilize and daze/confusion stacking.

It is certainly original in its content removal method, there is barely anything new in the game, everything new to the release has been removed besides skins.

Have you guys heard about Halo anniversary?

Its basically a complete remake of old halo, with new graphics. Could be something cool to think about for GW1.

Halo 2 Anniversary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AhkyhcrDTQ

And the argument of less skills being easier to balance turned out to be kitten anyways. Half the weapons of every profession are completely useless in multiple gamemodes.

Even though they added less content to make it ‘easier for the developers to balance’, players don’t really care how easy the developer’s job is, players want to make decisions to personalize and optimize their builds.

I don’t think they brought over a single thing that GW1 did well, it’s like they didn’t even realize how amazing a lot of the systems in GW1 were.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

And there is no home for the Guild Wars 1 player. They can’t just go back to Guild Wars 1 – it doesn’t have the population to hold up its PvP or its elite PvE content. Guild Wars 2 is a completely different, and in many ways inferior game. Other MMOs are a laughing stock of bad design. The Guild Wars 1 vet community is, simply put, homeless and angry – and rightfully so.

THIS. This IS exactly how I feel. The game that I truly loved so much, played for 8 years and counting. I feel I got kicked in the nuts and thrown outside. It’s been over 2 years and it still hurts to see what they did to the game I truly loved. It wasn’t the perfect game, it was a game that was completely unique. But instead of staying unique and improving on it’s flaws they completely abandoned everything that made Guild Wars so amazing as they try and take off with something completely different.