These Gold Sinks...

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Zebulous.2934

Zebulous.2934

The question is then which is going to ultimately maintain a more stable economy in a world where things appear out of thin air.

They do not appear out of thing air. Someone put forth the time to obtain them. Even if the item has a random chance to drop, Someone had to take the average time to kill X number of whatevers to obtain it. By fighting monsters and completing jumping puzzles you are essentially crafting gear and mats with time spent fighting or falling to your death repeatedly. The value of the item is in relation to the cost of obtaining it. If arena net flooded the trading post with mats or equips using GM commands then your argument would be justified.

(edited by Zebulous.2934)

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Zebulous.2934

Zebulous.2934

Goldsinks are important. It’s very easy to make money in this game. If there’s no sink, there will be too much money. Then most of that money will accumulate among high leveled, veteran players. Incoming players, or casual players, will have a very difficult time matching up to the inflated prices – which the veteran players will directly, or indirectly be setting. It would not be a free market, because the veteran players will be the ones controlling it.

Then comes in a new player who just hit 80. A set of exotics will cost them 250 gold. How is he gonna get that? No one wants him in dungeons because he doesn’t have the good gear for speed runs. He can’t make his own gear because mats will be expensive (less gear salvaged = less crafting materials. Supply < demand) Only those that can afford the mats for crafting are either a) people who can bot and farm nodes or b) have the money to buy what they want when they need it. ===> another increase on prices. He’ll be stuck at the bottom.

Generally once people have bought exactly what they want, they don’t shop around for another of the same thing. If you have your ultimate look or highest tier gear, you won’t be shopping for it. You will no longer be adding to the demand of all equips you are wearing. Once all the veteran players have equipped their alts with the best gear, they won’t be buying anymore for themselves. They will add zero demand to the market. Do you understand? veteran players remove themselves from the market when they are satisfied. Why make earn gold if there is literally nothing you want? Hell, many high level players, in other games, give stuff away to friends or guild mates simply because the in game market has nothing that can interest them.

The reason Trading Post prices are high, is because you can convert gold into gems. This is why people amass insane amounts of gold. This is why people charge so much. Trying to buy gem equipment with time spent farming.
If you weren’t allowed to convert gold, the inflation in this game would dissolve in a matter of months. The botting would also fall off dramatically. Of course we would all spend much less time playing the game. The ability to turn gold into gems is the largest time, and gold, sink in the game. Don’t blame farmers, or botters, taxes, or rng; the gold to gem conversion is the single most significant drain on the game economy.

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Astral Projections.7320

Astral Projections.7320

Goldsinks are important. It’s very easy to make money in this game. If there’s no sink, there will be too much money. Then most of that money will accumulate among high leveled, veteran players. Incoming players, or casual players, will have a very difficult time matching up to the inflated prices – which the veteran players will directly, or indirectly be setting. It would not be a free market, because the veteran players will be the ones controlling it.

Then comes in a new player who just hit 80. A set of exotics will cost them 250 gold. How is he gonna get that? No one wants him in dungeons because he doesn’t have the good gear for speed runs. He can’t make his own gear because mats will be expensive (less gear salvaged = less crafting materials. Supply < demand) Only those that can afford the mats for crafting are either a) people who can bot and farm nodes or b) have the money to buy what they want when they need it. ===> another increase on prices. He’ll be stuck at the bottom.

Generally once people have bought exactly what they want, they don’t shop around for another of the same thing. If you have your ultimate look or highest tier gear, you won’t be shopping for it. You will no longer be adding to the demand of all equips you are wearing. Once all the veteran players have equipped their alts with the best gear, they won’t be buying anymore for themselves. They will add zero demand to the market. Do you understand? veteran players remove themselves from the market when they are satisfied. Why make earn gold if there is literally nothing you want? Hell, many high level players, in other games, give stuff away to friends or guild mates simply because the in game market has nothing that can interest them.

The reason Trading Post prices are high, is because you can convert gold into gems. This is why people amass insane amounts of gold. This is why people charge so much. Trying to buy gem equipment with time spent farming.
If you weren’t allowed to convert gold, the inflation in this game would dissolve in a matter of months. The botting would also fall off dramatically. Of course we would all spend much less time playing the game. The ability to turn gold into gems is the largest time, and gold, sink in the game. Don’t blame farmers, or botters, taxes, or rng; the gold to gem conversion is the single most significant drain on the game economy.

You do realize don’t you that when people are converting gold into gems, they first buy the gems from ANet. The money goes into ANet’s pockets and then gold is transferred from the player who is buying gems with gold to the player who is selling gems. There is no gold generated. The gold comes out of the pocket of one player and goes into the pocket of another.

There were several posts on the previous page discussing this.

Edit:
John Smith.4610:
As a quick aside. Gems in the currency exchange are finite. You may buy gems with real money to your hearts content, but if you don’t put any of them gems into the currency exchange the currency exchange’s stock of gems never changes.

John Smith.4610:
Think of it this way. The government can print as much money as they want, that doesn’t mean your bank account has access to that money. The currency exchange does not have access to gem creation. It has a limited stock that players add and subtract from.

(edited by Astral Projections.7320)

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Zebulous.2934

Zebulous.2934

I am quite aware that there is a finite supply of gold. My comment assumed an infinite supply of gems. I was assuming that gold spent to buy gems was destroyed. However destroying 30% of it and giving me the rest amounts to the same thing. My point was that gold was being removed from the game to pay for gems. So the rate is 70% lower than I thought, so what? That still makes the gemstore a gold sink, still a 30% destruction of gold. Still causing people to save gold to buy gems with. Still encouraging people to amass fortunes so they can pay gem prices with time instead of dollars.

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Posted by: Asuka Shikinami.5462

Asuka Shikinami.5462

You didn’t elect Evon, expect no sympathy from him.

After I’m elected, bribing me will be considered a “gold sink”
- John Smith

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

I think that gems, in and of themselves, are not really what people are amassing gold to buy. Rather, most players are spending large amounts of money on vanity items, some of which are purchasable only with gems, but more of which simply cost a lot of gold. I’m talking things like Legendaries, the Black Lion Ticket weapons, super-expensive skins like Infinite Light etc.

If you really wanted to “fix” the problem of needing large amounts of gold to buy stuff, then the only solution is to make it much, much cheaper to get these vanity items. Make them drop 10x more frequently. Black Lion Ticket weapons cost just 1 ticket, permanently.

But then you’d have two issues:

1. What do players do with all the gold that they’re accumulating? It has to go somewhere, otherwise players would just have constantly increasing bank accounts that largely becomes meaningless.

2. Players who like feeling special due to showing off rare or exclusive skins get upset. (Sometimes VERY upset.) This is something I personally can’t understand (to me, I get skins because I like the way they look on my characters. I couldn’t care less what other players think about my appearance, and I often don’t care what other players look like either), but I understand that this move would make a lot of players unhappy.

So really, ANet’s straddling the middle ground here. Neither side is completely happy, but it’s something we have to live with if we don’t want to force the other side out of the game altogether.

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Posted by: Zebulous.2934

Zebulous.2934

Ok, let me get this straight. You say that when I spend 2000 gems in the exchange, I added nearly 2000 gems to the exchange. That sounds like gems get added to the exchange all the time. Next: we have an increasing population, veterans equipping entire alt accounts, and bots: all buying gems with time. Time is gold. To spend gold, is to spend the time it took to earn it. Ingame time = value of gold to players. Amassing enough gold to buy a reasonable amount of gems takes far longer than spending $25 at Wal*mart to buy 2000 gems. You must factor time spent into the equation. My whole point of view is that gold derives most of its value from time spent in obtaining it. Even bots have to spend time. The exchange only partially sets the cost of gems. The other part is how fast time spenders buy gems vs. how fast gem spenders by gold. and I have utterly lost track… of what I was trying to say…

(edited by Zebulous.2934)

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Clockwork Bard.3105

Clockwork Bard.3105

The question is then which is going to ultimately maintain a more stable economy in a world where things appear out of thin air.

They do not appear out of thing air. Someone put forth the time to obtain them. Even if the item has a random chance to drop, Someone had to take the average time to kill X number of whatevers to obtain it. By fighting monsters and completing jumping puzzles you are essentially crafting gear and mats with time spent fighting or falling to your death repeatedly. The value of the item is in relation to the cost of obtaining it. If arena net flooded the trading post with mats or equips using GM commands then your argument would be justified.

That the TP wasn’t instantly flooded with something doesn’t change that something that did not exist now does. That you tried real hard to get it does not change the fact that a pouch of copper did not exist until you smacked that bandit in the face with your sword. Seconds after his death, a new bandit reappears ready to distribute a new pouch of copper. There is an infinite supply of copper and bandits ready to fade into existence to meet the demand for sword smacking and looting.

Yes, similar examples can be made example of wood, plants and creatures. Ignoring that these are generally perishable goods with finite lives, the scale is much smaller. Literally every single human player in an MMO is generating wealth and resources through almost every action they take. Ultimately, in real life, effort alone does not conjure things into existence in this fashion.

That is what I meant. That in a game economy, things must cease to exist. Gold cannot simply appear and then be passed infinitely around between players. The goal is to create a stable economy in which resources and wealth pass out of existence at a comparable (though not necessarily identical) rate to them coming in.

And so the question then is, what method best accomplishes this?

These Gold Sinks...

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Posted by: Astral Projections.7320

Astral Projections.7320

Ok, let me get this straight. You say that when I spend 2000 gems in the exchange, I added nearly 2000 gems to the exchange. That sounds like gems get added to the exchange all the time. Next: we have an increasing population, veterans equipping entire alt accounts, and bots: all buying gems with time. Time is gold. To spend gold, is to spend the time it took to earn it. Ingame time = value of gold to players. Amassing enough gold to buy a reasonable amount of gems takes far longer than spending $25 at Wal*mart to buy 2000 gems. You must factor time spent into the equation. My whole point of view is that gold derives most of its value from time spent in obtaining it. Even bots have to spend time. The exchange only partially sets the cost of gems. The other part is how fast time spenders buy gems vs. how fast gem spenders by gold. and I have utterly lost track… of what I was trying to say…

I’m not dead sure what you are trying to say towards the end ^^ so let me address just the very first part.

Yes, gems are being put into the pool of gems all the time by people who wish to sell these gems for gold. Gems are also being taken out all the time by people buying with gold. This gold is a transfer from one player to another. No gold is created by this method. If more gems get put into the pool than people want to buy, then the gems would get cheaper. The gold to gem price would drop. Since the gold to gem price is rising, this means fewer people are selling gems for gold than people are buying gems with gold. The pool of gems is getting smaller, not bigger.

So what I’m trying to say here, the number of people who are buying gems with the intent of selling to other players is actually not very high. More people are buying gems with in game gold than the reverse. So there isn’t a large population of veterans buying gold for alts.

Since gold is not created by selling gems, all the gold that players have, originally came from killing enemies and as rewards from the game for doing events, dungeons, etc. Selling gems may spread it around a little, but only after players have farmed it in some manner.

(edited by Astral Projections.7320)

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Posted by: Serenity.6149

Serenity.6149

Not to mention that there is absolutly no inflation in GW2.

You’re kidding, right? Perhaps sarcasm that didn’t really deliver?