Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

People can say that players will discriminate or behave badly toward other players no matter what. But there is a difference between that and giving those players an approved tool with which to discriminate.

Not everything that excludes people is discrimination. If I don’t hire someone because he lacks the qualification/Skill set I require, that person could feel discriminated by skill-selection. I hope we agree that sounds stupid though. If I use an assessment center for my selection, is that less fair than using my guts?

Labjax.2465:

I don’t know if it’s any worse than it used to be, but I recall making an argument a long time ago that people are going to have a bad attitude, whether their information is accurate or not. The main difference with a meter is that they can be a little more certain about who isn’t pulling their weight.

I would think that people who use it to trash talk were probably going to find a reason to trash talk, meter or no.

Unfortunately DPS meters give a false metric. Say you are playing 100% support and giving everyone great buffs. Should you then be kicked because you are not doing as much damage to the boss? If you get kicked that party will be wondering why it is not as effective on their next run.

That said, I have no problem with DPS meters being used in raid content only. The ONLY place they should be in LFG should be listings for raids. If you want to leave your meter on in other parts of the game, fine, but requiring it of others in a non-raid area would be a reportable offense.

I agree with Menadena, dps-meter users need to chill some more. But people who get rejected from raid groups might be better off taking it less personal, and not go on a rant about it. Rejection hurts, but it’s mostly not personal.

I consider myself a decent player/gamer, doing this for 25 years. However, I don’t think I’m ready for raids. I simply play this game for only 3 months. I only need three more armor pieces of ascended quality, then I basically have the hardware to do raids (nobody wants thief though ^^). But I don’t know kitten about other classes other than my thief, and I have yet to learn more about this one. I hardly know what kind of boons my team mates provide, or who can heal or shield. I believe you need to have a good grasp of how the most common 4 classes work before doing content where ignorance by few party members can cause a wipe.

Participating is fun, sure. And people often forget that winning is a lot more fun.

Sly.9518:

Daddicus.6128:

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

Let’s take a look here.

…

Need anything more?

Yeah: Answer my question.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Because ANet did not plan Masteries with the idea that once all tracks had been maxed, XP would revert to a Spirit Shard reward on post-cap tick. They added that later, in response to player complaints, and once again either did not consider the ramifications for non-completionists, or because solutions that would either split Raid masteries from HOT ones — or allow XP to be allocated to a post-cap tick even if one had not finished all Mastery tracks were not trivial.

This technically answers the question, but is not a good reason. But, if true, perhaps they intend to correct the problem.

Jericento.3165:

So, Anet has decided that third party DPS meters like Arc DPS are acceptable within the policy guidelines. Okay. Did anyone at Anet stop to think about how much hostility and general nastiness result from people employing such scripts? It encourages elitism and general bad behavior. Yes, we can report and block… but we really shouldn’t have to. As far as I can tell, no action is ever taken on such “reports”, anyway.

When I first started playing GW2, I liked that it wasn’t a DPS or meta race. Over the years, that has changed dramatically. Now, Anet is making DPS trackers legit and acceptable; so what’s the message? They don’t want the game to be all about DPS, but they’re going to stack the game so it IS all about DPS. If a meta gets out of hand, nerf it!

Look, I don’t mind the tools being used within defined, regular teams. That’s fine. If someone in an organized, set group needs chewed out for lacking DPS or not using a defined play style, cool. Whatever. But when that attitude and behavior spills over into general game play and LFG? No.

I don’t know the solution, really. It is what it is? However, if this is going to remain the trend (endorsed and encouraged by Anet by allowing tools for DPS/gear check), why not include a rating system or other categorical tick-boxes for “Casual”, “Organized” and/or “Elitist kitten” within the LFG? I understand that Anet needs to create demanding, challenging end-game content that will appeal to the die-hard-forever set; but with that comes a need to mediate their own system.

Then don’t group with people who have a difffent playstyle than you. Move on and don’t impose your playstyle on others, like you are attempting to do with this complaint thread.

Warcry.1596:

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synonymous.

If I had to guess, I’d guess that there are two aspects to performing in raid content that people like. One is, certainly, dealing with mechanics that require skill to conform to. The other is likely demonstrating the ability to use the character’s capabilities — not just movement, but the execution of its skills in the most efficient manner possible.

One of the stated purposes at the time for HoT in general was to get players to use more of their character’s capabilities. This was undoubtedly in response to complaints about the core such as “face-roll easy” and “spam (sic) 1 to win.” If the persistent world content was intended to produce greater use of the capabilities ANet built into character skills, how much more likely would it be for raids, intended to be harder, instanced content requiring skill and coordination, to use more of what characters can bring to the table.

Like it or not (and it would seem you don’t), the buffs which lead to maximized damage are part of the GW2 skill system. Thus, bringing as much damage as possible to an encounter is part of what indicates both knowledge of the profession skill systems and the skill to use them. It should be a no-brainer that in games where players fight enemies, doing damage is a significant part of the game.

Understandable, but there are other ways to prove knowledge of mechanics and the game itself than maximizing DPS.

DPS meters, when used in a training arena by elite level players who are looking to develop builds for their speed runs, are a great tool.

DPS meters, when used by people who believe themselves to be elite (but are somehow mysteriously not being invited to the elite level raid groups) to exclude other players from their LFG for “not playing right” are kitten.

All tools can be used appropriately for good or inappropriately for bad. The problem with DPS meters is that the good use accounts for less than 5% and the majority of players will never be in a group with that experience. The remaining 95% of people using them or being subjected to them will have a purely negative experience as a result of them.

Daddicus.6128:

Sly.9518:

Daddicus.6128:

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

Let’s take a look here.

…

Need anything more?

Yeah: Answer my question.

Already did, your questions were "If there is a target audience and where is the Raid Mastery track both of which the answers are in the Snipped out quote you replied to. I even bolded most of it for you, to make identifying then relevant parts easy.

But again The target audience is players looking for a challenge through content that requires preparation, coordination and higher skill than anything else in game, and the Raids have their own Mastery track that can only be unlocked from killing raid bosses.

Again both of which were previously answered in my snipped reply, is there anything else?

But back on topic, There is already enough options to allow players not to groupnwith people using Dps meters if they so choose, there is no reason to remove dps meters since all they are is a tool that allows to more accurately identifyany deficiencies in a group, or would players want to go back to being kicked by any toxic players on a hunch or because they think someone is the reason or for having to low of AP or Two low of LI or any other non-meaningful reason.(ps dps meters show more things than just dps like Boon uptime and heals, so if your role isn’t just pure dps they have that info too)

Sly.9518:

Already did, your questions were "If there is a target audience and where is the Raid Mastery track both of which the answers are in the Snipped out quote you replied to. I even bolded most of it for you, to make identifying then relevant parts easy.

But again The target audience is players looking for a challenge through content that requires preparation, coordination and higher skill than anything else in game, and the Raids have their own Mastery track that can only be unlocked from killing raid bosses.

Again both of which were previously answered in my snipped reply, is there anything else?

But back on topic, There is already enough options to allow players not to groupnwith people using Dps meters if they so choose, there is no reason to remove dps meters since all they are is a tool that allows to more accurately identifyany deficiencies in a group, or would players want to go back to being kicked by any toxic players on a hunch or because they think someone is the reason or for having to low of AP or Two low of LI or any other non-meaningful reason.(ps dps meters show more things than just dps like Boon uptime and heals, so if your role isn’t just pure dps they have that info too)

I didn’t ask who the target audience was. I asked why, if there was a target, weren’t there separate mastery tracks. You partially answered this in your recent post, but if those are the reasons, then they really screwed up.

Another way to ask:

There are separate tracks for WvW and PvP, even though the differences are minor.

If they had used the same logic, there should be separate tracks for PvE and Raid. PvE and Raid are much further apart in game style than WvW and PvP are.

for those concerned about BGDM and the like, they can only show your dps if you have it downloaded. I don’t use it, so my data is not provided to other users as per the TOS it cannot read other players data.

Also, if I did use it it’s because the goal is to improve MY dps in a real scenario. If you aren’t interested in improving your own dps then thats fine, just dont expect others to suffer through a failure because you dont want to improve yourself and we’ll all get along.

Daddicus.6128:

Sly.9518:

Already did, your questions were "If there is a target audience and where is the Raid Mastery track both of which the answers are in the Snipped out quote you replied to. I even bolded most of it for you, to make identifying then relevant parts easy.

But again The target audience is players looking for a challenge through content that requires preparation, coordination and higher skill than anything else in game, and the Raids have their own Mastery track that can only be unlocked from killing raid bosses.

Again both of which were previously answered in my snipped reply, is there anything else?

But back on topic, There is already enough options to allow players not to groupnwith people using Dps meters if they so choose, there is no reason to remove dps meters since all they are is a tool that allows to more accurately identifyany deficiencies in a group, or would players want to go back to being kicked by any toxic players on a hunch or because they think someone is the reason or for having to low of AP or Two low of LI or any other non-meaningful reason.(ps dps meters show more things than just dps like Boon uptime and heals, so if your role isn’t just pure dps they have that info too)

I didn’t ask who the target audience was. I asked why, if there was a target, weren’t there separate mastery tracks. You partially answered this in your recent post, but if those are the reasons, then they really screwed up.

Another way to ask:

There are separate tracks for WvW and PvP, even though the differences are minor.

If they had used the same logic, there should be separate tracks for PvE and Raid. PvE and Raid are much further apart in game style than WvW and PvP are.

Pvp and WvW don’t have Mastery Lines….. they don’t look it up, they have Reward Tracks not Mastery Lines and WvW has its own WvW Rank system which only provides selectable Upgrades quite different from Mastery Lines.

Also The reason PvE has Mastery Lines and the others don’t? They are different gamemodes, and Raids are still part of the PvE gamemode, its not separate in the slightest it’s just a portion of PvE so it uses the PvE Mastery Mechanic.

And before Spirit Shards were ever reward for maxing out level 80 Mastery Lines Raids had their Mastery Line already implemented.

And Raids have it’s own Mastery Line…. It literally only affects Raid Content has no affects outside of Raids…….

So yeah..

BGDM is personal and talking-to-other-BGDM users only, but ArcDPS has a “simulated group DPS” function where it tries to guess the DPS of other party members without their consent.

The only other MMO I’ve played is WoW, where Recount spamming in dungeon party chat is a prelude to a group falling apart. Because it is NEVER used to say, “hey friend, you’re not really pulling your weight, need some pointers?” Never ever. It’s used to say, “Bads GTFO.” (Bads being everybody but #1, natch). You would think that more information would improve performance and increase success, but I’ve never seen meters used in PUGs for anything but toxicity. It was fine in guilds, though.

I think you just need more commitment to each other than a PUG has to use meters in a non-abusive way.

Daddicus.6128:

Another way to ask:

There are separate tracks for WvW and PvP, even though the differences are minor.

If they had used the same logic, there should be separate tracks for PvE and Raid. PvE and Raid are much further apart in game style than WvW and PvP are.

When they first started with masteries, there was no reason, not even a minor one, to keep them separated. There was no reward for maxing masteries. Further, there was no reward for gaining XP past level 80, other than contributing to mastery tracks.

The reward was added after, because we complained that our experience was going nowhere. At that point, ANet thought that it would be better to offer the meager reward (a measly spirit shard) sooner rather than have us wait for them to figure out how to create a new mastery track.

Regardless, this has absolutely nothing to do with DPS meters or the hostility that is some have attributed to them. It is not evidence of ANet favoring raiders or ignoring non-raiders; it’s not evidence of DPS meters causing an issue; and it’s not evidence of hostility.

Warcry.1596:

Understandable, but there are other ways to prove knowledge of mechanics and the game itself than maximizing DPS.

I believe that was indeed the goal behind raid design, and for that matter HoT design.

At the core, all dps meters do is save people the trouble of parsing through the combat log so I don’t really buy this idea of measuring metrics being a new frontier of elitism. I’ll admit that it can be misused by people with poor attitudes but that’s no different to AP elitism which has largely fallen away. Just that dps meters provide something tangible to be elitist over. On the other hand, features like buff uptime on BGDM are an absolute godsend for support classes as giving them raw data about their performance since a Druid or Chronomancer gets much less feedback from damage numbers than a Tempest would. By giving the community access to instant feedback regarding their performance, I’d argue the proliferation of dps meters have increased the general skill of the player base and given many people a necessary sobering of what they actually contribute to the group. This has given rise to many optional safe builds being consciously acceptable due to easier rotations or extra utility even if the damage ceiling is lower. Power Engineer, Hammer Guardian, Magi Druid, Minstrel Chronomancer, etc.

It also gives room for theorycrafters to test their ideas and gain substantive feedback on how successful they are outside of the DPS Golem. GS Condi Reaper, Condi Daredevil, Condi Ranger, etc may not have been considered good builds without dps meters to conclusively prove their usefulness in live situations. So dps meters have contributed to build diversity in the high end pve meta.

Because of those reasons and the simple fact that it is a tool for measuring performance and self improvement, I think the good outweighs the bad.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Warcry.1596:

Understandable, but there are other ways to prove knowledge of mechanics and the game itself than maximizing DPS.

I believe that was indeed the goal behind raid design, and for that matter HoT design.

Well they DID say at PAX when they announced Heart of Thorns that people may consider “dusting off their tanky gear” and almost heavily implied the berserker meta was going to be non existent.

As far as the design of raid content the way it is, I get it, but there are way better ways to test people’s profession knowledge.

Faaris.8013:

Djinn.9245:

People can say that players will discriminate or behave badly toward other players no matter what. But there is a difference between that and giving those players an approved tool with which to discriminate.

Not everything that excludes people is discrimination. If I don’t hire someone because he lacks the qualification/Skill set I require, that person could feel discriminated by skill-selection. I hope we agree that sounds stupid though. If I use an assessment center for my selection, is that less fair than using my guts?

I don’t want to sit in ts and defend our mes because the group is flaming him for not keeping 100% alacrity/quickness when they group in fact was running around like headless chicken and obviously missing wells.
I don’t want to sit there and being forced to make a choice to either dps or save teammate. And if i dare to chose saving my teammates (why do people die? because they tunnelvision dps for the sake of dps meters and ignore fight mechanics), i get flamed for missing out w/e dps.
I don’t want to sit there and defend my damage because i was on add-killing duty while our hero condi rangers were too busy tunnelvisioning their braindead rotation and didn’t need to bother with fight mechanics.
But these things happen thanks to dps meters and people caring only about the numbers on 3rd-party software that reads data from other players without their consent (and Anet does nothing about it).
Sure, i can go look for another group. But add LI in there, add how many groups actually go for certain boss -> gl finding a reasonable group for a kill. As it is right now, the only option (same goes for LI elitism) is joining a chill guild that has smart commanders that won’t stress you more than your RL job.

DPS meters for personal uses? Sure. Group wide dps meters that are abused by toxic elitists (and sry to say it but a big part of raiding community consists of those)? No, ty.

Cynz, your examples describe toxic people. I think we have established here that toxic people existed before dps meters. Just like kittens existed before the Internet. Its invention just gave them a new powerful tool to live their dream.

That doesn’t mean the Internet is to blame.

Warcry.1596:

Understandable, but there are other ways to prove knowledge of mechanics and the game itself than maximizing DPS.

Not for people in the role of damage dealer.
Assuming they don’t cause other people’s deaths (usually easy to notice, though to be fair with the way GW2’s combat explodes in a disco whenever people start using skills it is rather difficult here), then the higher the DPS, the better.

Ofc for a tank or a healer the metrics are different, and not quite as simple (because for example higher raw healing output can still be worse healing).

Memes aside, I’ve genuinely never seen anyone being kicked due to their lack of DPS. Sometimes, it may have been a contributing factor justifying the decision, but usually people are kicked because they don’t understand and fail basic mechanics.

All the entiteled casuals should honestly ask themselves what do they bring to the table as an individual, how do they contribute to the party effort. Are you a support/healer? Then you obviously won’t be judged by your DPS, but rather by the amount of buffs you provide. What are my average GotL stacks? How much might do I have? Is my fury permanent? How much quickness/alacrity do I have? etc….
If you do none of these things and don’t buff your party in any meaningful way, the only other way of contributing is doing DPS. And if your DPS is terrible, it’s completely justified to question your contribution to the overall effort. You’re not providing offensive buffs or doing reasonable DPS, you’re just occupying a spot that someone else could take and acutally do something.

There will be people who misread/misuse data because they’re too stupid to understand how they work. Does that mean we should not have access to such data, no matter how critical they are?

Carighan.6758:

Warcry.1596:

Understandable, but there are other ways to prove knowledge of mechanics and the game itself than maximizing DPS.

Not for people in the role of damage dealer.
Assuming they don’t cause other people’s deaths (usually easy to notice, though to be fair with the way GW2’s combat explodes in a disco whenever people start using skills it is rather difficult here), then the higher the DPS, the better.

Ofc for a tank or a healer the metrics are different, and not quite as simple (because for example higher raw healing output can still be worse healing).

Right, but that goes back to how it’s designed. It doesn’t HAVE to be designed in such a way that full damage people need to push to that specific limit. It could just mean that as full damage, they lack any sort of defensive capabilities aside from evades and skills, and THAT to me is a much better skillful challenge, figuring out how to survive while dealing the damage you are capable of.

That’s all I mean… Reward that sort of skillful play, high DPS =/= high skill.

I am personally not a huge fan of dps meters, but not for the reason mentioned by OP.
It makes -some- players want to compete for DPS instead of focusing on mechanics.
Let’s be realistic, there’s only a couple raid bosses that can be DPS checks, and it’s not even that bad. A boss like Deimos for example, is made far less subject to screw up if you simply stand in the middle and range the boss instead of trying to melee him and avoid the oils. But nope, some people want their DPS to look good.

However, to the contrary of what OP said, it can actually help AGAINST toxic people. Without any form of metrics some pseudo elitists will love pointing fingers, it happens all the time.
DPS meters aren’t perfect for every situation, and in my opinion should not be used outside of raids, but if you’re joining raids and don’t want to play “well”, you’re making 9 other people waste their time. The main source of hostility in raids is due to people lying about their skill, and not dps meters.

Recently seeing comments like your dps low kind of comment (It as good as say your dps sux ) Players want to go fast as furious it ok with me but don’t spoil others fun in a way. It better not to comment too much and stick to solution below.

A simple solution to this might be to leave games that your unhappy with and go with lfg like (Casual) (Average) or (elitist kitten) depending on your preference and play style . Nobody like put up with thing they don’t like (As if we don’t have enough of those in life, to bring it here is just bad)

Video Games are to have fun if your not having fun then it might be a wrong video game for you.

Ingenious

Seems there are people who want others to play their way. Whether its the DPS elitists or the DPS meter haters – both are demanding that the ‘other guy’ is doing it wrong.

As has been said. If you don’t like it, don’t do it and start your own group. If you somehow end up in a group you don’t want to be in, kindly say I’m outta here and move on.

Make a LFG run that says “Casual Run— No DPS meter or Kick.” You’ll get takers for sure, given the thread’s responses.

Honestly, I am rather befuddled that people knowingly join parties that are prone to this kind of thing and do so repeatedly. You’re not going to get along with those people no matter what.

I have seen people use dps meters in WvW; of which I just go “cute tool, kid”

And beyond the practical issues. I mean, it does serve legitimate purposes. Why not remove chat just because people might use it to offend other people?

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Seems there are people who want others to play their way. Whether its the DPS elitists or the DPS meter haters – both are demanding that the ‘other guy’ is doing it wrong.

Well said.

ArchonWing.9480:

I am …befuddled that people knowingly join parties that are prone to this kind of thing and do so repeatedly.

It’s human nature to keep doing the same thing over and over and over again while expecting different results.

Warcry.1596:

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synomymous.

absolutely agree with this, hits the nail on the head. . If raids weren’t designed as dps races then ther wouldn’t be an issue. Human nature means some people who are not normally aggressive can become aggressive due to peer pressure and a tool that promotes aggressive selfish play and measures using simplistic metrics adds fuel to the fire. As for blaming the victim for joining a raid and not automatically knowing he may be abused by a stranger in that raid in the future -well we see that argument in real life too often by the aggressive don’t we.

Why is this an issue? well the majority of players don’t want to put up with the risk of encountering this behavior so we have Anet developing content for a minority. Legendary armor for example excluded from the majority of the player base.

It is a really interesting topic, a very board topic.

Let’s start with the basic, the game population is diverse. It easily range from newbies, noobs, average joes, butterflies, hardcores, elitists and so on. Many many types of people are playing the game.

Now OP is saying 3rd party DPS meter promotes hostility while giving examples of it. On the topic of that, I do agree it does promote hostility by bringing out alt ego but I wouldn’t say it does in a majority scale.

We have many types of people playing the game and I would say that the dps meter itself is merely a tool. It really depends on the user on how it is used, how it can affect the user on his or her attitudes, mentalities, behaviors and personalities.

I would say that some people can and will use dps meter as a pretense to be hostile or incite hostility but not in a obvious way. I think it is more effective to discuss what is acceptable and not so acceptable hostility than to argue for a yes or no answer if dps meter will promote hostility.

Daddicus.6128:

I asked why, if there was a target, weren’t there separate mastery tracks.

There is a separate mastery track for raids though.

Now that meters is a thing, its probably here to stay. And perhaps gw2 is a game for meters as its mostly about dps anyway.
Still, I like my games better without it. In my experience, no matter intentions or agreements in guilds and among friends, it tends to sneak its way into almost everything that happens. In the end, theres always one who will run it and post numbers, perhaps only his own numbers, never judging or commenting, but it will be there.
Perhaps I always ends up with wrong people, though I wouldnt have guessed it beforehand. And it isnt really anything wrong with it as such, some people like numbers, especially higher numbers than others, its how it is.
But people who are quite happy without numbers gets dragged in, and starts to keep half an eye on the numbers too. And thats okay. Sort of. And then healers start to dream about not beeing last. Supports want to get in some shots too, because getting beaten by a healer? Omg.
And then numbers are a part of it, if you want it or not. It takes some of your focus, and some choises will be made, not for your group but for numbers. And thats what I dont like about meters.
As I said, maybe gw2 is the game for it. Perhaps.
Still dont like it though.

If you thinking about gaming aiming for harmonious inclusive communities that enjoy playing together towards common goals, there is hardly any game in Real life or virtual that is played for pleasure where you ‘kick’ people because they are not performing, the journey/battle really is supposed to be part of the fun – just like those rpg board games at the root of mmorpg history.

Tightly tuned dps races and ranking of strangers is a design flaw that fights against this harmony. Perhaps modern players have not experienced group based rpg that is not centralized around winning at all cost?

Warcry.1596:

Right, but that goes back to how it’s designed. It doesn’t HAVE to be designed in such a way that full damage people need to push to that specific limit. It could just mean that as full damage, they lack any sort of defensive capabilities aside from evades and skills, and THAT to me is a much better skillful challenge, figuring out how to survive while dealing the damage you are capable of.

That’s all I mean… Reward that sort of skillful play, high DPS =/= high skill.

Not really. That’s not proper playing as a raid.

In a raid, you want someone else, specialized into it (i.e.: a healer) to handle your non-binary damage (obviously there are still some simple don’t-stand-in-the-fire-checks).
Because, this way you can focus on what the group has you for, damage.

And the higher the damage, the faster the boss dies.

And the faster the boss dies, the less damage taken, the easier survival becomes.

This is a core fallacy in evaluating why a raid “dies”. Or struggles with downed people. Quite often, the solution is not to focus more on defense. Rather, focus more on offense. The faster a boss dies, the less need to survive, and the less chances to screw up.

Warcry.1596:

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synomymous.

Most fight won’t require top DPS.
Wing 1: VG is definitely not the DPS race, a good group composition will bring you decent DPS and that’s all you need. Gorseval? If you can’t reach dps, do airdraft mechanics, done. Sabetha can indeed be a little of a DPS race but is mostly mechanics heavy.

Wing 2: The 3 bosses are definitely not DPS races. Matthias like Sabetha is mechanic heavy.

Wing 3: KC can be DPS race, but if you miss a checkpoint you can still recover.

Wing 4: No DPS race. In fact they’re a joke. Not talking of CM of course.

There is no real tough DPS check. I think group composition (making sure to have alacrity/gotl/stacks of might etc) is more important, and that’s more knowing the mechanics of a class than anything. Sure having really good dps make the fights easier, and that’s why some people get toxic over that. But let’s face it, a group that fails a Xera, Matthias, Deimos isn’t cause of DPS, just because they don’t do the mechanics well.

DPS meters need to go…
It has no place in GW2

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

DPS meters need to go…
It has no place in GW2

Too late now. Guess peeps will just have to get over it and move along.

Deihnyx.6318:

Warcry.1596:

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synomymous.

Most fight won’t require top DPS.
Wing 1: VG is definitely not the DPS race, a good group composition will bring you decent DPS and that’s all you need. Gorseval? If you can’t reach dps, do airdraft mechanics, done. Sabetha can indeed be a little of a DPS race but is mostly mechanics heavy.

Wing 2: The 3 bosses are definitely not DPS races. Matthias like Sabetha is mechanic heavy.

Wing 3: KC can be DPS race, but if you miss a checkpoint you can still recover.

Wing 4: No DPS race. In fact they’re a joke. Not talking of CM of course.

There is no real tough DPS check. I think group composition (making sure to have alacrity/gotl/stacks of might etc) is more important, and that’s more knowing the mechanics of a class than anything. Sure having really good dps make the fights easier, and that’s why some people get toxic over that. But let’s face it, a group that fails a Xera, Matthias, Deimos isn’t cause of DPS, just because they don’t do the mechanics well.

None of the fights require top DPS, I never said they do. My issue is that they require DPS at all. Sure, some fights can have certain parts or phases, but in general, I would much rather be challenged in other ways, mostly because I don’t feel like wearing DPS gear to be enough of a challenge for content designed to be difficult.

Warcry.1596:

None of the fights require top DPS, I never said they do. My issue is that they require DPS at all. Sure, some fights can have certain parts or phases, but in general, I would much rather be challenged in other ways, mostly because I don’t feel like wearing DPS gear to be enough of a challenge for content designed to be difficult.

If encounters were more focused on difficult mechanics, I’m 100% certain that the tears resulting from it would drown the entire game and that toxicity would reach a whole new level. All those current “easy mode pl0x, mimimi” threads already point in that direction and current mechanics are not difficult.

Exactly!

As such, the content itself is not difficult in its current form =/
I think I’ve gone in circles by now

Djinn.9245:

People can say that players will discriminate or behave badly toward other players no matter what. But there is a difference between that and giving those players an approved tool with which to discriminate.

The game was already full of “approved tools”. AP count, mastery level , visible profession and weapons, I’ve seen all this be used to discriminate. I haven’t seen a dps meter being used to discriminate more. For every case when I’ve seen someone ask another player “why is your dps X”, I’ve had another case seeing a player ask another “why are you playing Y”. So no, there’s no difference.

Djinn.9245:

And this tool wouldn’t be perceived as necessary if Anet hadn’t added raids to GW2. Since we have raids, Anet feels it is necessary to allow this tool, so unfortunately we’re just going to have to live with it. I wish that Anet hadn’t added raids at all.

General baseless hate about raids. Why am I so not surprised?

Sly.9518:

Pvp and WvW don’t have Mastery Lines….. they don’t look it up, they have Reward Tracks not Mastery Lines and WvW has its own WvW Rank system which only provides selectable Upgrades quite different from Mastery Lines.

Also The reason PvE has Mastery Lines and the others don’t? They are different gamemodes, and Raids are still part of the PvE gamemode, its not separate in the slightest it’s just a portion of PvE so it uses the PvE Mastery Mechanic.

And before Spirit Shards were ever reward for maxing out level 80 Mastery Lines Raids had their Mastery Line already implemented.

And Raids have it’s own Mastery Line…. It literally only affects Raid Content has no affects outside of Raids…….

So yeah..

OK, that makes sense then. I assumed masteries worked in PvP/WvW. (Shows how much I play there, huh?)

You’re right.

Crinn.7864:

Daddicus.6128:

I asked why, if there was a target, weren’t there separate mastery tracks.

There is a separate mastery track for raids though.

Tracks, yes. But, the XP bar is for all of HoT. So, once you finish HoT XP for masteries, you start losing all XP earned in any HoT zone (which, sadly, includes LS3 zones).

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

DPS meters need to go…
It has no place in GW2

Well argued indeed. Certainly going to sway the masses that way.

(why exactly don’t they have a place?)