Guild Wars 2

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You have my premission!

Actually I do believe that Anet has these very forums to hear our concerns and issues with the game. I think we do a disservice to the Devs and the game by not stating what we like and dislike here. Just my two cents.

Well if you look at my post history I’ve done my fair share of complaining, but also given them opinions and ideas how to make the game better (in my opinion).

Currently I’m witholding any gem purchases until they fix the skill lag, which is ruining my WvW experience. If they can’t fix it, they ain’t getting any more money from me.

Never.8571:

I’ll preface by saying I don’t post here much. I mostly just lurk around, watching other what other people say about the direction of the game. Well, I finally want to add my input.

I don’t mind the way the game is moving forward. In fact, I like it a lot. I’ve only played a few other MMO’s, but I find this one to be my favorite. Actually, this is the only game I’ve been playing since I built my computer earlier this year. I’ve been having so much fun with it, the only action my PS3 sees is for the occasional movie.

Here’s where it gets sour. I absolutely loathe reading all of the “hate” topics towards the devs now. In my mind, I can’t actually understand why people are complaining so much. Maybe this game is everything for you? I don’t really know. I want to say, as this being my sole entertainment (videogame wise, and that counts for a lot) for the last 6 months, I love it.

I do get a little ticked at the quick rate of some of the content, as I don’t have as much time as I want to play. I do have a more than full time job, and a family. I suppose it helps that my wife also plays. But, it’s not a massive deal! Sure the AP are a big thing to get, but I don’t get terribly mad if I can’t get them all in the time allotted between releases. I move on. I play more of the game. I’m at 702 hours played and 3,510 AP, I just got my second level 80 geared, and I don’t see myself slowing down any time soon.

I do have an interesting proposition. If any of you haven’t watched The Guild season 6, I strongly suggest you take the time. It’s a short youtube series/season. I’m sure, beyond the humor, it might actually be what this team goes through on a day-to-day basis. The negative opinions these people have to wade through everyday affect them in some way or another. It can’t be good for their morale as team.

Anyway, that’s how I feel about the current standing of the community, as I’ve seen it change over the last few months. Time for me to go to work. Have a fantastic day in Tyria!

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I agree, completely with this. It’s just a game. It baffles me the extreme emotions that it seems to evoke in people. You’re supposed to have fun here, that’s the point right? And I, personally, don’t like feeling like I have to go to the forums and have it out at the devs of a game. I quit the game before I do that and move on to something I actually enjoy. I’ve done that a lot in my life.

+1 for a reasonable post.

You and I seem to have much in common, Never. +1 for you. We need a few more on here that are reasonable, to add some balance to all the ‘lets just bash anet’ voices.

Notice how Josh Foreman doesn’t post anymore since the sab w2 release? I remember reading how he said that he was very eager to work on W2 and very excited to come in early and do work, or stay late and continue to work.

You have to have pretty high work ethic, dedication and excitement for your work to have that kind of mentality.

And what did he get for it? Non-constructive criticism that SAB is just terrible. AND the playerbase gives him attitude and overreacts as if Foreman was offending them. It must be very unforgiving to be a designer in the game industry, be very open to it and still be able to be positive. I kind of hate how gamers, especially MMO players, have some sort of entitlement and gamer’s rights, so much that they kitten on the same very people that provided them with entertainment that was well worth their time and money.

And now we have a designer who probably doesn’t feel as motivated and probably won’t pull in the extra time to make content that is epic. Granted, Anet themselves discourage crazy hours (as he said), but it is disheartening when a dev loses that type of motivation because of these forums which are full of negative nancies they don’t provide anything close to constructive criticism.

Foreman:

Smaller team, actually. And the length was my own desire to get as many ideas as I could in there. I spent several months pulling 16 hour days and a couple weeks where I did a couple 36 hour stretches, went home, slept and came back and did it again. No one else wanted me to do that. In fact those sort of crazy hours are discouraged at ArenaNet. I did that because I freeking love what I do and wanted this release to be the best thing ever. Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!

later on:
Hm. Let me specify, lest I be accused of whining. I meant all the EXTRA hours I poured in was wasted. I just put in too much stuff. I’m not crying here. I’m learning a lesson.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You can complain all you want as long as it’s constructive. Non-constructive criticism doesn’t get you anywhere. It doesn’t help the devs diagnose the problem since you’re not specific and you don’t want to help them provide solutions.

“Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!”

“Hm. Let me specify, lest I be accused of whining. I meant all the EXTRA hours I poured in was wasted. I just put in too much stuff. I’m not crying here. I’m learning a lesson.”

This is absolutely awful! I feel terribly for him. No one should be made to feel this way when they pour their heart and soul into something. And people wonder why we’ve stopped getting feedback of any kind on here. The forum community is simply toxic! Honestly, I wouldn’t blame anet if they simply pulled the plug on the game and told us all to gfy.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!”

“Hm. Let me specify, lest I be accused of whining. I meant all the EXTRA hours I poured in was wasted. I just put in too much stuff. I’m not crying here. I’m learning a lesson.”

This is absolutely awful! I feel terribly for him. No one should be made to feel this way when they pour their heart and soul into something. And people wonder why we’ve stopped getting feedback of any kind on here. The forum community is simply toxic! Honestly, I wouldn’t blame anet if they simply pulled the plug on the game and told us all to gfy.

People blame Anet for not being transparent and being open with the community.

Well, what’s the benefit of that when the community responds to innocent and neutral comments with snide and rude remarks? What’s the benefit when any type of positive, hopeful remark is not met with excitement, but suspicion, hesitation and sometimes indifference.

I’m very surprised a guy like Colin just seems like he’s made of unicorns and lollipops. The guy is impervious to criticism and hard to troll (as many people here attempt to), and I respect him for it. But other folks aren’t as much and you can almost see the cracks in their attempts at maintaining a professional and neutral face. It doesn’t surprise me how some Anet devs have not even bothered posting on the forums (like Whiteside), probably because they know just how bad it is here.

Sometimes there’s no constructive criticism to offer.
Sometimes it comes down to a difference of opinion. If I want to see a movie and my wife wants to go shopping, she’s driving and goes to the mall, I can complain but there really is no constructive criticism I can offer. She perfectly executed a trip to the mall.

However, its reasonable for me to complain (to a degree it can go too far) that we didn’t agree to go to the mall, or that I don’t want to be here. I think it’s reasonable even if I bought the car but she pays for the gas.

Guild Wars has been the only MMO to really come out for a year (I think). Once there’s an alternative to check out people will look at it and stay gone, or come back and be happier with what they have. Right now everyone is trying to shoehorn this MMO into their ideal game.

TooBz.3065:

Sometimes there’s no constructive criticism to offer.
Sometimes it comes down to a difference of opinion. If I want to see a movie and my wife wants to go shopping, she’s driving and goes to the mall, I can complain but there really is no constructive criticism I can offer. She perfectly executed a trip to the mall.

However, its reasonable for me to complain (to a degree it can go too far) that we didn’t agree to go to the mall, or that I don’t want to be here. I think it’s reasonable even if I bought the car but she pays for the gas.

Guild Wars has been the only MMO to really come out for a year (I think). Once there’s an alternative to check out people will look at it and stay gone, or come back and be happier with what they have. Right now everyone is trying to shoehorn this MMO into their ideal game.

Exactly, I think there is a ton of people who come to this game with the expectation that it is going to be like every other MMO.

A great example is expansion content. Anet is trying to do something different from expansions and that’s through Living Story. Forumites hate it since they’re not used to content trickling in – they just hate change. But of course, we know based on the metrics that Anet has provided us, people are playing more and more, and that to me shows that it’s a success.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

exactly. We have spent money, and I know I have spent money.

I’ve spent over $1,000 on the game and gem store, and I’m pretty content with the game as it is. Complaining won’t get me anywhere, and I don’t come up with some mind-blowing solution to x or y problem every day. Nobody does. These are highly controversial issues which people bring up: the equivalent of gay marriage or abortion here in GW2. My money goes to make content, hire new designers and better the game. I’m happy in knowing that, and that’s all that matters. A dev can’t simply say, “Idea!” and have 100% support either. There will always be naysayers who feed on responses from their claims and complaints. The best thing to do is not to ignore them, but read and verify that they aren’t making an attempt at a valid point and move on. ArenaNet Devs are people too. They suffer from the same controversy and affairs that we on the forums go through every day.

Just be kind, and pay it forward. Maybe your ideas will make it into the game someday, but this “I want it now” stuff has to stop for the betterment of the community and the forums. Peace.

Vol.5241:

People blame Anet for not being transparent and being open with the community.

Well, what’s the benefit of that when the community responds to innocent and neutral comments with snide and rude remarks? What’s the benefit when any type of positive, hopeful remark is not met with excitement, but suspicion, hesitation and sometimes indifference.

I’m very surprised a guy like Colin just seems like he’s made of unicorns and lollipops. The guy is impervious to criticism and hard to troll (as many people here attempt to), and I respect him for it. But other folks aren’t as much and you can almost see the cracks in their attempts at maintaining a professional and neutral face. It doesn’t surprise me how some Anet devs have not even bothered posting on the forums (like Whiteside), probably because they know just how bad it is here.

/Agreed

They aren’t going to waste their time when they get only (or mostly) bile in return. Its not worth the effort, or the stress.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You can complain about what you purchased from the store yes but that’s about it. :P

I totally agree with the OP. Not exactly a fanboy as I do have my fair share of issues with the game as well and think it still needs work done on a bit of stuff (water combat as a basic example). However overall I think the game is in a fine state right now and shows a LOT of promise for the future with only good things to come.

Also I can say that I played another game for some 11 years almost 12 on and off and at this stage this game is about where abouts that other game was at about a year after launch. Both in content and community as well in some ways. I only hope that this game takes ideas of this other said game and bring in a lot of the kind of content that game does for variety and such as well but we will see. No I wont name that game either but if a dev is interested pm me in game lol….

Viking Jorun.5413:

I’ve spent over $1,000 on the game and gem store, and I’m pretty content with the game as it is. Complaining won’t get me anywhere, and I don’t come up with some mind-blowing solution to x or y problem every day. Nobody does. These are highly controversial issues which people bring up: the equivalent of gay marriage or abortion here in GW2. My money goes to make content, hire new designers and better the game. I’m happy in knowing that, and that’s all that matters. A dev can’t simply say, “Idea!” and have 100% support either. There will always be naysayers who feed on responses from their claims and complaints. The best thing to do is not to ignore them, but read and verify that they aren’t making an attempt at a valid point and move on. ArenaNet Devs are people too. They suffer from the same controversy and affairs that we on the forums go through every day.

Just be kind, and pay it forward. Maybe your ideas will make it into the game someday, but this “I want it now” stuff has to stop for the betterment of the community and the forums. Peace.

We need more reasonable people like ^

Wow. Just wow. Thanks to the folks over on reddit they found Josh Foreman’s blog. Very, very good read.

http://www.joshuaforeman.blogspot.ca/

snippet:
The other thing I’ve been doing is interacting heavily on the forums attempting to ascertain how much of the complaints are legitimate and how much angry hyperbole. I’ve been trying to articulate our team’s intentions and be up front with the mistakes we made and how we plan on addressing them.

Now, I’ve been reprimanded a couple times over the last couple of years for my forum posting. I’m not diplomatic enough, mention things I shouldn’t, make specific comments that could be interpreted as promises by the community, set precedent for forum interaction that my co-workers shouldn’t feel the need to have to meet, etc. I took the forum posting class our Community Team gives in order to be cleared to post on our official forums twice. I’ve listened carefully to the Community manager and our studio producer who pointed out specific things I’d said wrong. I’ve been pulled aside by my boss to be told that other departments were unhappy with things I’ve said. Every time this happens I sincerely apologize and try to make sure I re-adjust my attitude towards my communication style.

I thought I was getting better at this skill but I got another one of those talks this morning. I can’t go into any details except to say that I am not getting good enough at this skill. I was hoping that I could find a way to follow the rules (Which I agree exist for good reasons) while still maintaining my personality when posting. I guess I cannot. I think my basic personality is simply incompatible with the diplomacy necessary to protect my company and co-workers. So even though I’m getting responses like these

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!”

“Hm. Let me specify, lest I be accused of whining. I meant all the EXTRA hours I poured in was wasted. I just put in too much stuff. I’m not crying here. I’m learning a lesson.”

This is absolutely awful! I feel terribly for him. No one should be made to feel this way when they pour their heart and soul into something. And people wonder why we’ve stopped getting feedback of any kind on here. The forum community is simply toxic! Honestly, I wouldn’t blame anet if they simply pulled the plug on the game and told us all to gfy.

I feel so bad for him. I hope he knows that there are also a lot of players who’s played the content and genuinely enjoyed it. I’ve yet to fully complete SAB myself, but from the few clips I checked on youtube on how players run through the content, it sure looks like a lot of fun. I just wanna express my appreciation to Foreman and his team and will continue to show my unending support for all effort that’s put in this game; especially so since it’s clearly with passion, ardour and fervour.

*Edit: Just had a taste of SAB and boy was it fun. Granted it was tough as nails, but it makes for some very refreshing change of pace. I even took several screenshots of the level designs because I found them to be really interesting and well done. I’ll try beating the later levels again and am looking forward to it. I’ll read up on the lore behind SAB for now.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

Thats a choice you made, and is not an obligation. Nor does it give you a reason to complain.

Thats like giving a friend a hundred bucks then kittening at them because they aren’t doing what I want them to do -.-.

I hear yah never. I’ve got pretty much the same stance. Only reason I post here is cause I’m a forum junkie, but I’ve got a similar stance. My guildies always snicker when I mention these boards.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

Exactly my thoughts as well. He sounded reasonable until he said the word “kids” and that totally blew it. I think he’s probably in his twenties and that’s being generous.

The thing that gets me is it’s not that it’s not fun to play, it’s not that it’s not a beautiful game with lots of potential. It’s the misdirections we’ve had to deal with, the dishonesty, the not receiving the things we were originally promised in this product.

And sure they’ve apologized in an unofficial interview with no marketing to bring this to the customer’s attention however, when they apologize to try to win back the trust of those of us they’ve disappointed and then turn about to continue down the same exact path they were on before the first time a disappointment was released, that doesn’t exactly give us any choice but to complain about that behavior.

Case in point, “Play how you want to play”, yet dungeons and WvW give significantly MORE of the ascended materials than the open world events do. They can’t blame that cutoff on the bots this time.

See my point?

@Vol, thanks for the link. Was an interesting read, and equally sad. Gotta say, it disheartening to hear they have to go thru so much ‘prep’ to even talk to us, but considering the community…I can sort of understand it.

@ToPocHi, I’m sure he does, but a person can only be positive for so long before the negativity wears them down.

Most of my complaints have more to do with the overall direction of the game than they do with the contributions of any specific developer. Those complaints are aimed at management, not staff. As far as complaints by myself or others about more specific aspects of the game — well, no one aspect of the game is going to please everyone. No skin, for example, will appeal to everyone. The player base is too large, and too diverse for that to be possible.

For anyone working at ANet who has taken personal offense at anything I’ve posted — you have my sincere apologies. As fans, we are also passionate about our games, and fans are as capable of getting carried away as anyone. If that is not a consolation, perhaps you can derive some amusement from posting the most egregious examples of forum bile on a bulletin board and making fun of them with your coworkers.

All of that said, there will always be people who try to walk all over the help in any industry. Just ask anyone who has ever worked in retail. However, in many industries, satisfied customers will sometimes take the time to comment favorably about employees’ work. I suspect that happens less with game forums than in other industries.

Specifically with regard to SAB: platform games are not my strong suit, not something I am interested in. I have not done SAB — but I have also not complained about it. I recognize that not everything in the game is going to be aimed at me. Perhaps the devs can take some consolation in looking at the demographics which — hopefully — show that a lot of people are using the content.

tigirius.9014:

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

Exactly my thoughts as well. He sounded reasonable until he said the word “kids” and that totally blew it. I think he’s probably in his twenties and that’s being generous.

The thing that gets me is it’s not that it’s not fun to play, it’s not that it’s not a beautiful game with lots of potential. It’s the misdirections we’ve had to deal with, the dishonesty, the not receiving the things we were originally promised in this product.

And sure they’ve apologized in an unofficial interview with no marketing to bring this to the customer’s attention however, when they apologize to try to win back the trust of those of us they’ve disappointed and then turn about to continue down the same exact path they were on before the first time a disappointment was released, that doesn’t exactly give us any choice but to complain about that behavior.

Case in point, “Play how you want to play”, yet dungeons and WvW give significantly MORE of the ascended materials than the open world events do. They can’t blame that cutoff on the bots this time.

See my point?

But you can still play the way you want. If Ascended gear is your sole goal then go do dungeons and WvW. If you like PvE, start a new character/go for full exploration/ect, if you like PvP, play PvP, you’ll get what you need for the new tier of gear sooner or later. I’m not sure how this keeps you from playing the way you want to.

I agree with the OP- posting about something you do not like and making suggestions on how it can be improved is all good and fine but hate post towards the devs and personal attacks are just not on.

I feel for Josh Foreman- especially since he says that he feels like he let the company down because this patch shows bad numbers.

I don’t think for what it is worth that the numbers have anything to do with SAB this time around- he just had the misfortune to have his content released in the same patch as the latest Ascended “perfect storm”

I have no problem with criticism and I’m sure the devs realise that forums are always going to attract negativity more than positivity.

Where it starts getting stupid, though, is when it’s not at all constructive. When I see posts like, “these devs are incompetent and should hang themselves.” or, “I demand you do (x) or I’m gonna quit.” is when it crosses a line. If someone spoke to me like that physically face to face, their complaint would be lost on me immediately and I’d ban them from having anything to do with my business. Their money means little to me if they have the social skills of a gnat.

Also this ‘the customer is always right’ that gets spewed around needs to go away, too. Quite often, they’re wrong and I’m not going to give in to demands of a customer if they’re being completely unreasonable. You’re talking to other human beings and you are equal to them whether you want to admit it to yourself or not. There’s no excuse for treating them like they deserve less than you do. Of course, there are those that do this on purpose for their own entertainment, and while I just feel sorry for them, it’ll never stop while anonymity exists.

That said, there isn’t a terrible amount of that here. Sometimes people get passionate and cross into levels of hyperbole, but I think most of the threads I see are mostly constructive with a little bit of frustration mixed in.

Pack Hunter.6103:

Actually, no. That doesn’t explain anything about what you mean. That isn’t a good comparison because it could mean that you feel they have completely altered the game, or it could mean that they suspended your account or they could have literally bought your house and evicted you. Please be a bit more specific with your arguments so we can understand.
Thanks

talking about guild wars. thx.

Excellent points by the OP … in my eyes, it’s always been a question of perspective. I’m 100% in support of constructive criticism, with suggestions on how aspects of the game could be improved. But the pure viciousness that comes through in a lot of the forum topics, directed towards the devs and/or management … it still truly boggles my mind. I’m by no means a hardcore player, but i clock in a good 15-20 hours a week. I’d probably play more often, but there’s the job, the kids, the book i’m writing, etc. (you know, real life shtuff). I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt, though, that if I was just thoroughly disgusted with the direction the game was going, additions they’ve made to it, the frequency of additional content (temporary or permanent), or anything else … well, shoot — I’d find something else to do with my 15-20 hours a week that I DID enjoy.

But I’ve been playing since beta and for the amount of work, hours, and heart and soul that’s been put into the game, the folks behind it could use a few more forum hugs rather than a few more forum kicks in the junk.

JayMack.8295:

Where it starts getting stupid, though, is when it’s not at all constructive. When I see posts like, “these devs are incompetent and should hang themselves.” or, “I demand you do (x) or I’m gonna quit.” is when it crosses a line. If someone spoke to me like that physically face to face, their complaint would be lost on me immediately and I’d ban them from having anything to do with my business. Their money means little to me if they have the social skills of a gnat.

I feel like… there are a lot of people out there who forget, on some level, that they are talking to another human being who goes through all the same sorts of ups and downs as they do, and as such can’t empathize enough to be able to restrain themselves when they go to say things like that.

Then again there are people like that who will say that even to other people’s faces, but that is a different issue.

I’m sure you’ve heard the addage ’It’s the squeeky wheel that gets the grease’, well that addage applies to everything in life even here.

You have your own views of what makes a great game, I have my views and others have thiers. Now often those views are conflicting and sometimes even in direct opposition to each other. So while I may be very happy with the game if I say nothing and someone comes on here and fights for the opposite, ANet will cater to them. They proved that back in November 2012 when they first introduced fractals and ascended.

If I’ve learned anything from visiting these forums the first year it’s that ANet caters to ones that whine the loudest and the more vulgar they are, the quicker the response they get. That’s why I don’t feel the slightest bit bad about critizing them because they brought it upon themselves.

If they had stuck to their vision, none of this would be an issue...

Complaining I have a issue with. Constructive criticism I do not. Constructive feedback is information-specific, issue-focused, and based on observations.

People need to learn to give constructive criticism. Constructive criticism builds someone up it helps them identify the problem. It also invites the person being criticized to find possible solutions to whatever is going wrong. By promoting problem solving and self-improvement. This is what ArenaNet wants when they ask for feedback. Good constructive criticism gets things changed. Bad vague details do not.

NOTE: This is just a example. I be it not the best example but still a example.

Bad feedback: Antherblades too hard. Nerf them or I quit.

Good Feedback: I find antherblades extremely annoying and difficult to fight due to the number of times they snare with their static field. Then immediately afterwords you are unable to do anything to attack or defend yourself and stopped mid-step they use a channeling skill to attack. I feel defenceless in these situations and do not find it fun to fight them.

Sadly due to most people do not I find it hard at times to identify a troll to someone that is trying to give good feedback but just does not know how. Also too many people like to argue.

Vol.5241:

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You can complain all you want as long as it’s constructive. Non-constructive criticism doesn’t get you anywhere. It doesn’t help the devs diagnose the problem since you’re not specific and you don’t want to help them provide solutions.

Actually, constructive criticism doesn’t get us anywhere either … and that is exactly one of the reasons that there is so much animosity on these forums. I and many, many other players spent many months offering suggestions for improvements and fixes for this game, almost none of which were implemented. Instead, we’ve gotten some things we didn’t ask for, most of which we didn’t even want … bloodlust in WvW being the most glaring recent example.

As far as not paying a subscription fee, that’s a totally bogus and ignorant comment. Many of us have spent quite a lot of money on this game in the gem store, but more importantly almost all of us have invested hundreds and thousands of hours developing our characters and learning how to play them. That’s a HUGE commitment to the game that goes way beyond whatever we initially paid for it, and it is a factor that ANet is critically dependent upon for their continued existence. Any fool who tells those of us who are complaining to simply quit and go elsewhere is a bigger threat to ANet than we are. ANet should be kitten glad that we are still here complaining because at least it says we still care in one form or other, and in most cases it says we’re still playing their game and not someone else’s. Only the totally clueless don’t understand that.

anzenketh.3759:

People need to learn to give constructive criticism……….

Sadly due to most people do not I find it hard at times to identify a troll to someone that is trying to give good feedback but just does not know how. Also too many people like to argue.

and then you get people like myself who are always going to be a jerk to these devs, because it’s far too late for them to make anything right in these matters in my eyes. i didn’t play guild wars because it was another overprocessed run of the mill themepark fantasy mmo (guild wars 2 IS but it’s somewhat disguised, a joke if you ask me). i played it because it WASN’T for one thing.

y’all done messed up.

Cactus.2710:

Vol.5241:

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You can complain all you want as long as it’s constructive. Non-constructive criticism doesn’t get you anywhere. It doesn’t help the devs diagnose the problem since you’re not specific and you don’t want to help them provide solutions.

Actually, constructive criticism doesn’t get us anywhere either … and that is exactly one of the reasons that there is so much animosity on these forums. I and many, many other players spent many months offering suggestions for improvements and fixes for this game, almost none of which were implemented. Instead, we’ve gotten some things we didn’t ask for, most of which we didn’t even want … bloodlust in WvW being the most glaring recent example.

As far as not paying a subscription fee, that’s a totally bogus and ignorant comment. Many of us have spent quite a lot of money on this game in the gem store, but more importantly almost all of us have invested hundreds and thousands of hours developing our characters and learning how to play them. That’s a HUGE commitment to the game that goes way beyond whatever we initially paid for it, and it is a factor that ANet is critically dependent upon for their continued existence. Any fool who tells those of us who are complaining to simply quit and go elsewhere is a bigger threat to ANet than we are. ANet should be kitten glad that we are still here complaining because at least it says we still care in one form or other, and in most cases it says we’re still playing their game and not someone else’s. Only the totally clueless don’t understand that.

They don’t have to give us what they want. They are in the entertainment industry not the service industry.

If they don’t make what you like that is fine. Give the reasons why. Do not attack them nor the company.

All they have to do is make something entertaining.

Phrixscreoth.6895:

JayMack.8295:

Where it starts getting stupid, though, is when it’s not at all constructive. When I see posts like, “these devs are incompetent and should hang themselves.” or, “I demand you do (x) or I’m gonna quit.” is when it crosses a line. If someone spoke to me like that physically face to face, their complaint would be lost on me immediately and I’d ban them from having anything to do with my business. Their money means little to me if they have the social skills of a gnat.

I feel like… there are a lot of people out there who forget, on some level, that they are talking to another human being who goes through all the same sorts of ups and downs as they do, and as such can’t empathize enough to be able to restrain themselves when they go to say things like that.

Then again there are people like that who will say that even to other people’s faces, but that is a different issue.

Pretend you go to your local electric utility to complain about the frequent outages, or you go to a local store to complain that the lawnmower you just bought doesn’t work as promised, or you go to your local ISP to complain about erratic internet service. You meet face to face with someone on the other side of the counter and they simply ignore you each time you show up. You try to get their attention and you try to convince them that they need to be more communicative but they say almost nothing, do almost nothing, and seem to be working on something else instead of what brought you to them.

Tell me now how empathic and reserved you would be toward that “other human being.”

We have a metaphor that suggests we don’t “shoot the messenger”, or the bearer of bad news. In fact, doing so is a broad ad hominem in that it focuses on a person (or group here) rather that the ‘news’ or criticisms which they bear.

In terms of the forums, customers raise issues with the state of the game. Often, people are passionate about the issues and that is a good thing because it means they are passionate about the game. It is never wise to blame those who come bearing bad news or criticism of the game. That’s what the forums are all about. It is much better to actually engage with the issues that are raised rather than dismissing the people who raise them.

And, we don’t need to feel sorry for Anet. They are a company with customers, they make money from a product that they sell to customers. The dynamics here are well understood, or should be, by anyone playing the ‘business’ game.

It is irrational, and wrong, to blame customers for the state of the forums. They are functioning perfectly as a vehicle for 2-way communication, the exact purpose for which they were created by Anet.

anzenketh.3759:

Cactus.2710:

Vol.5241:

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

You can complain all you want as long as it’s constructive. Non-constructive criticism doesn’t get you anywhere. It doesn’t help the devs diagnose the problem since you’re not specific and you don’t want to help them provide solutions.

Actually, constructive criticism doesn’t get us anywhere either … and that is exactly one of the reasons that there is so much animosity on these forums. I and many, many other players spent many months offering suggestions for improvements and fixes for this game, almost none of which were implemented. Instead, we’ve gotten some things we didn’t ask for, most of which we didn’t even want … bloodlust in WvW being the most glaring recent example.

As far as not paying a subscription fee, that’s a totally bogus and ignorant comment. Many of us have spent quite a lot of money on this game in the gem store, but more importantly almost all of us have invested hundreds and thousands of hours developing our characters and learning how to play them. That’s a HUGE commitment to the game that goes way beyond whatever we initially paid for it, and it is a factor that ANet is critically dependent upon for their continued existence. Any fool who tells those of us who are complaining to simply quit and go elsewhere is a bigger threat to ANet than we are. ANet should be kitten glad that we are still here complaining because at least it says we still care in one form or other, and in most cases it says we’re still playing their game and not someone else’s. Only the totally clueless don’t understand that.

They don’t have to give us what they want. They are in the entertainment industry not the service industry.

All they have to do is make something entertaining.

LOL. The entertainment industry is more critically dependent upon providing people what they want than just about any other. I find it amazing that you don’t understand that.

But in any case, not being entertaining is exactly what all these forum complaints are about. Grind is not entertaining, unbalanced play is not entertaining, bugs and hacks are not entertaining, horrific lag is not entertaining, stale content is not entertaining.

Cactus.2710:

LOL. The entertainment industry is more critically dependent upon providing people what they want than just about any other. I find it amazing that you don’t understand that.

But in any case, not being entertaining is exactly what all these forum complaints are about. Grind is not entertaining, unbalanced play is not entertaining, bugs and hacks are not entertaining, horrific lag is not entertaining, stale content is not entertaining.

If something is not entertaining then yes it should be looked at. I am not saying concerns are not valid.

The way the concerns being issued however are of concern. Too many people treat it like something in the service industry as opposed to something in the entertainment industry.

There is too much of “I am the boss listen to me” or “Customer is always right” mentality. When the person who is in charge are the designers of the art. The scope of the service or art is determined by the artist or designer. We are the recipients of said art. We can offer our critique and our constructive criticism but can not make any demands.

The service industry this is not so much the case. The person being serviced is the one in power as long as the request is within the scope of the service as it was purchased they have every right to make a demand for it to be done.

Seriously? First of all, if you buy a product there is nothing that says you are not allowed to complain about it. Even if it was free it does not mean everyone should keep quiet if there is something they do not like about the game. Sure there are people who may go to extreme lengths when they are not happy about something, but it still shows the devs that there is something that can be improved or changed or considered during the next update.

The WORST people are the ones who don’t say anything or only praise everything that happens. If you are not happy about something in the game but you don’t say anything about it, then it won’t be fixed or improved. Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

Gizmo.9178:

Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

On that same token, posts of “This content sucks” or “X and Y are too hard, please nerf” aren’t helpful at all.

Tom Gore.4035:

Never.8571:

tl;dr — We’re not even paying subscription fees! Why are people complaining about content in a (after you pay a flat price) free game?

Some people’s kids..

I’ve spent about 150€ on the game box and gem store so far.

So can I complain now?

I say no, because, buying the game was a CHOICE not a necessity and the gems purchase is even worse, no-one forced you into those choices.

Vol.5241:

Gizmo.9178:

Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

On that same token, posts of “This content sucks” or “X and Y are too hard, please nerf” aren’t helpful at all.

Even though it may not be constructive, it still gives a tiny insight of what some of the players (many or few) feel. I know that some of these threads can be very ridiculous but they still offer a tiny sense on how some of the community feels about certain content.

“Hey Colin, your game is great, but there are some things I’m sure you can improve upon. If you can get to these little snags when you can that would be great. You’re the best Brohanson!”

We need more of these light hearted messages. Letting them know that the game is great, but of course there is room to improve still. Instead of focusing on the bad with hate and whips and flogging and all our focused attention to attempt to slave drive them into oblivion.

Gizmo.9178:

Vol.5241:

Gizmo.9178:

Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

On that same token, posts of “This content sucks” or “X and Y are too hard, please nerf” aren’t helpful at all.

Even though it may not be constructive, it still gives a tiny insight of what some of the players (many or few) feel. I know that some of these threads can be very ridiculous but they still offer a tiny sense on how some of the community feels about certain content.

Agreed it does offer some tiny insight if they mention what. But then they don’t come back when people request further explanation. The point is without the information and further clarification not much can be done about it.

Kyrel.8942:

“Hey Colin, your game is great, but there are some things I’m sure you can improve upon. If you can get to these little snags when you can that would be great. You’re the best Brohanson!”

We need more of these light hearted messages. Letting them know that the game is great, but of course there is room to improve still. Instead of focusing on the bad with hate and whips and flogging and all our focused attention to attempt to slave drive them into oblivion.

And even if the game is not great, here is what I would say

“Hey Colin, I’m really, really disappointed with the way this game is turning out. I really wanted it to be like X but it seems the direction the game is going far from that. Perhaps this game is not for me, but I still want to see if I could get some enjoyment from this game before I put it down for good. Here are some areas which I’m concerned about, as well as possible solutions
-a
-b
-c
Thank you for reading”

Doesn’t come across as whining, but comes off as understanding, clear and concise. If people posted here as if they were talking to a person face to face, I think interactions would be more pleasant.

But because this is the internet, people will become rude. But hey, I admit I do that too.

anzenketh.3759:

Gizmo.9178:

Vol.5241:

Gizmo.9178:

Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

On that same token, posts of “This content sucks” or “X and Y are too hard, please nerf” aren’t helpful at all.

Even though it may not be constructive, it still gives a tiny insight of what some of the players (many or few) feel. I know that some of these threads can be very ridiculous but they still offer a tiny sense on how some of the community feels about certain content.

Agreed it does offer some tiny insight if they mention what. But then they don’t come back when people request further explanation. The point is without the information and further clarification not much can be done about it.

Yeah that is true. Many threads only go 50% by saying what they don’t like, but they don’t always offer ways on how to improve or fix a problem. I guess that is better than nothing at least.

Cactus.2710:

Phrixscreoth.6895:

JayMack.8295:

Where it starts getting stupid, though, is when it’s not at all constructive. When I see posts like, “these devs are incompetent and should hang themselves.” or, “I demand you do (x) or I’m gonna quit.” is when it crosses a line. If someone spoke to me like that physically face to face, their complaint would be lost on me immediately and I’d ban them from having anything to do with my business. Their money means little to me if they have the social skills of a gnat.

I feel like… there are a lot of people out there who forget, on some level, that they are talking to another human being who goes through all the same sorts of ups and downs as they do, and as such can’t empathize enough to be able to restrain themselves when they go to say things like that.

Then again there are people like that who will say that even to other people’s faces, but that is a different issue.

Pretend you go to your local electric utility to complain about the frequent outages, or you go to a local store to complain that the lawnmower you just bought doesn’t work as promised, or you go to your local ISP to complain about erratic internet service. You meet face to face with someone on the other side of the counter and they simply ignore you each time you show up. You try to get their attention and you try to convince them that they need to be more communicative but they say almost nothing, do almost nothing, and seem to be working on something else instead of what brought you to them.

Tell me now how empathic and reserved you would be toward that “other human being.”

You’re analogy doesn’t work because this isn’t 1 on 1. This is an enourmous community interfacing with a handful of devs. They aren’t just serving you. Their choices affect way more then just you.

Gizmo.9178:

Yeah that is true. Many threads only go 50% by saying what they don’t like, but they don’t always offer ways on how to improve or fix a problem. I guess that is better than nothing at least.

it’s almost pointless. the spvp forums are a prime example of this. they also speak volumes about how the crew behind gw2 came out of the gate making a bunch of noise about the value of community etcetera, when the sense of community ends up being about as shallow as the game mode.

Gizmo.9178:

The WORST people are the ones who don’t say anything or only praise everything that happens. If you are not happy about something in the game but you don’t say anything about it, then it won’t be fixed or improved. Without all these complaints, the devs would have to guess at what would be best for the players.

This exactly. I’ve been I guess what you call one of these complainers with the last couple updates.
I don’t blindly hate this game. I think it’s the best out there atm and has potential. But I also don’t just happily accept whatever they throw out there. If they do an update and change things you don’t like, but sit with a smile and say oh well….they’ll never know otherwise and keep putting in the same stuff. Who does that help? Noone. You’re unhappy and they’re putting out content that they don’t know is unpopular.
MMO community forums seem to be pretty hostile and the developers can’t please everyone, but they can take feedback to alter their original plans to try to please a majority.
Take this Ascended fiasco. Some people like it, some say they don’t care for it but blindly accept whatever, and some really don’t like it. The people in the middle are the worst as they contribute nothing either way. Developers can take from the good feedback and the negative and maybe come up with something that could work for both.
That being said and as others have said, its better to add in as much information as possible as to what you like or dislike rather than “This rocks!” or “this sucks!”