Guild Wars 2

Genesis.5169:

Erasculio.2914:

Genesis.5169:

“Too much stuff here is optional”

Yes.

The game gives you the option of talking to people, not when you are forced to, but rather when you want to.

If you are playing the game by yourself, without never trying to interact with people simply because the game is not forcing you to… Why are you playing a MMO, again?

The thing is.
Everything is obtainable without help.
I play MMO’s to work with people to obtain a great goal you could not do alone. There’s none of that in GW2.

And no one ever wants to why would i want to risk repair bill on players who may not be good on content i can complete on my own?

1. You can’t get dungeon gear sets without communicating with at least 5 players (that is if you decide to run with one group only)
2. You can’t get ascendeds in fractals alone and once again have to communicate with at least 5 people (that is if you decide to run all 10 levels to get your ring with one group only)
3. You can’t perform well in WvW with 0 communication. Best teams are the ones that work together.
4. Spvp is not very good without communication either.
5. While communicating during events is optional you can’t complete high level events on your on (dragons, etc).
6. You can’t do the last part of your story alone.

I actually like the fact that the game does not shove communication down my throat. I have a very small guild that I chat with occasionally and I like running dungeons. Sure it’s a gamble what kind of people are going to be in your group, but I enjoy socializing with them when it’s a good group, however if it was essential that I do that throughout every minute of playing the game I wouldn’t like it.

^
1 = Dungeons;
2 = Dungeons;
3 = PvP;
4 = PvP;
5 = Mindless hack-and-slash zerg;
6 = A single example;

See where the problem is Mirta? Tell me, for someone who doesn’t cares about dungeons – or cares about dungeons but also a lot about general pve, what is the reason to coordinate with other players in an attempt to be successful while exploring the world? Or while completing the storyline? Or while, you know, simply doing adventures?

If I pick a random map in GW2 and start doing “adventures”, how many party-driven adventures do I have? And the answer is: a few champions here and there. Yeah, not very exciting.

If I waste a lot of money on trait building and equipments to create my dream party-support build, which content can I do while adventuring through the world, that demands that?

GW2 is pretty cool at making solo players fighting together (dynamic events), but the devs have overlooked content with real party coordenation and strategy. Sure, they have designed dungeons for that, but dungeons are but a few maps in a few corners of the world: the meat of the pve game is exploring the world, doing adventures, “seeing the world changing”, following the stories. And it’s a very lonely experience. It’s something you don’t do with a group of friends, just alone or with a band of foreigners that groups together as fast as it disbands. They could very well be NPCs instead of players, it wouldn’t have made much of a difference (or would they? henchmen/ heroes in GW1 were pretty cool).

It’s cool that the game gives you the “option” to play solo. It’s sad, however, that the game does not gives you the (meaningful) option to play in a party.

DiogoSilva.7089:

^
1 = Dungeons;
2 = Dungeons;
3 = PvP;
4 = PvP;
5 = Mindless hack-and-slash zerg;
6 = A single example;

See where the problem is Mirta? Tell me, for someone who doesn’t cares about dungeons – or cares about dungeons but also a lot about general pve, what is the reason to coordinate with other players in an attempt to be successful while exploring the world? Or while completing the storyline? Or while, you know, simply doing adventures?

Reason?
1. Orr is really annoying and slow to do on your own
2. You want to party up and spend time with people.

there’s your reasons. It’s optional. You know what’s great about that? You are not forbidden from doing it. You know what I do half the time while exploring? Party up with my boyfriend. Help some noob from the guild. Party up with a friend. Do I have to? Thank godness no, I can solo the content pretty well and am happy about it. If you want to socialize you do, if you don’t then you don’t. Why do you want to take the freedom of choice away from people that like soloing?

I can hit cap without ever leaving the racial starting zone(s). That’s a flaw.

bpphantom.8243:

I can hit cap without ever leaving the racial starting zone(s). That’s a flaw.

No, its not. Its kitten well brilliant. Downscaling allows you to do that.

Now why you would ever want to play that way is a whole nother’ question. But to each their own, I suppose.

The game isn’t about hitting cap. Never has been. Thats what has been so confusing to so many people. Once I get a toon to 80, I rarely touch them again. I suppose once I have all 8 classes at 80..I’ll start working on something, I suppose.

Unless ANet gives me more professions

Mirta.5029:

Reason?
1. Orr is really annoying and slow to do on your own
2. You want to party up and spend time with people.

there’s your reasons. It’s optional. You know what’s great about that? You are not forbidden from doing it. You know what I do half the time while exploring? Party up with my boyfriend. Help some noob from the guild. Party up with a friend. Do I have to? Thank godness no, I can solo the content pretty well and am happy about it. If you want to socialize you do, if you don’t then you don’t. Why do you want to take the freedom of choice away from people that like soloing?

I don’t want solo players to have less freedom, I want party players to have more freedom. That’s the difference. Why should one kind of players be treated better than the other?

There’s a lot more to the game than Orr. Especially when you are leveling up. And even when you party with somebody else, where is the strategy that makes partying fun?

I’ve went to Orr, and I haven’t seen party-content. I have seen group zergs, which is a completely different thing. I haven’t see party strategy. I haven’t discussed with someone on how we should beat this guy or overcome that obstacles. I have simply joined the zergs, spammed skills, and finished events while watching TV.

This is not fun. And even if it was, it’s a zone only for level 75-ish or more. What about everything else? What about the other optional maps? And the story instances?

GW2 only truly starting having casual party-driven content with the monthly content patches, especially with Mad King’s and Tixx’s instances, and it has almost no deep party content outside of dungeons.

Partying with your lover or personal friend is cool, but if I want to party with anyone else to meet new people and make new friends, which adventure can make me help other people? Events are a zerg. Hearts are 100% solo, there’s not even an option. Exploration is mostly solo, because everyone has different explored and unexplored maps, and it’s a waste of time going back to a place you’ve been for the sake of “helping” someone in your party. But they won’t usually even need help.

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

Erasculio.2914:

Genesis.5169:

“Too much stuff here is optional”

Yes.

The game gives you the option of talking to people, not when you are forced to, but rather when you want to.

If you are playing the game by yourself, without never trying to interact with people simply because the game is not forcing you to… Why are you playing a MMO, again?

The thing is.
Everything is obtainable without help.
I play MMO’s to work with people to obtain a great goal you could not do alone. There’s none of that in GW2.

And no one ever wants to why would i want to risk repair bill on players who may not be good on content i can complete on my own?

1. You can’t get dungeon gear sets without communicating with at least 5 players (that is if you decide to run with one group only)
2. You can’t get ascendeds in fractals alone and once again have to communicate with at least 5 people (that is if you decide to run all 10 levels to get your ring with one group only)
3. You can’t perform well in WvW with 0 communication. Best teams are the ones that work together.
4. Spvp is not very good without communication either.
5. While communicating during events is optional you can’t complete high level events on your on (dragons, etc).
6. You can’t do the last part of your story alone.

I actually like the fact that the game does not shove communication down my throat. I have a very small guild that I chat with occasionally and I like running dungeons. Sure it’s a gamble what kind of people are going to be in your group, but I enjoy socializing with them when it’s a good group, however if it was essential that I do that throughout every minute of playing the game I wouldn’t like it.

Basically all zergs.
But aside from that all party driven content is all instanced and locks you in with a set group.

How interesting what an amazing point you just made.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mirta.5029:

Reason?
1. Orr is really annoying and slow to do on your own
2. You want to party up and spend time with people.

there’s your reasons. It’s optional. You know what’s great about that? You are not forbidden from doing it. You know what I do half the time while exploring? Party up with my boyfriend. Help some noob from the guild. Party up with a friend. Do I have to? Thank godness no, I can solo the content pretty well and am happy about it. If you want to socialize you do, if you don’t then you don’t. Why do you want to take the freedom of choice away from people that like soloing?

I don’t want solo players to have less freedom, I want party players to have more freedom. That’s the difference. Why should one kind of players be treated better than the other?

There’s a lot more to the game than Orr. Especially when you are leveling up. And even when you party with somebody else, where is the strategy that makes partying fun?

I’ve went to Orr, and I haven’t seen party-content. I have seen group zergs, which is a completely different thing. I haven’t see party strategy. I haven’t discussed with someone on how we should beat this guy or overcome that obstacles. I have simply joined the zergs, spammed skills, and finished events while watching TV.

This is not fun. And even if it was, it’s a zone only for level 75-ish or more. What about everything else? What about the other optional maps? And the story instances?

GW2 only truly starting having casual party-driven content with the monthly content patches, especially with Mad King’s and Tixx’s instances, and it has almost no deep party content outside of dungeons.

Partying with your lover or personal friend is cool, but if I want to party with anyone else to meet new people and make new friends, which adventure can make me help other people? Events are a zerg. Hearts are 100% solo, there’s not even an option. Exploration is mostly solo, because everyone has different explored and unexplored maps, and it’s a waste of time going back to a place you’ve been for the sake of “helping” someone in your party. But they won’t usually even need help.

if you needed to discuss a full strategy just to complete hearts it would be less solo friendly, so if you want more freedom for parties, you would be sacrificing freedom for solos.
Also another thing – what other MMO did it differently? How is leveling in Warcraft different in this regard? Every single quest is easily doable alone and most people indeed do so.
“Everyone has different explored and unexplored maps” and what would you suggest? Force everyone to have a copy of everything is explored because some person did that exploration months ago and you want everyone to have the same kind of exploration? The exploration is not account bound, it’s character bound, meaning that if you want the same kind of exploration, create a character at the same time with your friend and agree to not to play those characters when one of you is not online. Simple!

Mirta.5029:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mirta.5029:

Reason?
1. Orr is really annoying and slow to do on your own
2. You want to party up and spend time with people.

there’s your reasons. It’s optional. You know what’s great about that? You are not forbidden from doing it. You know what I do half the time while exploring? Party up with my boyfriend. Help some noob from the guild. Party up with a friend. Do I have to? Thank godness no, I can solo the content pretty well and am happy about it. If you want to socialize you do, if you don’t then you don’t. Why do you want to take the freedom of choice away from people that like soloing?

I don’t want solo players to have less freedom, I want party players to have more freedom. That’s the difference. Why should one kind of players be treated better than the other?

There’s a lot more to the game than Orr. Especially when you are leveling up. And even when you party with somebody else, where is the strategy that makes partying fun?

I’ve went to Orr, and I haven’t seen party-content. I have seen group zergs, which is a completely different thing. I haven’t see party strategy. I haven’t discussed with someone on how we should beat this guy or overcome that obstacles. I have simply joined the zergs, spammed skills, and finished events while watching TV.

This is not fun. And even if it was, it’s a zone only for level 75-ish or more. What about everything else? What about the other optional maps? And the story instances?

GW2 only truly starting having casual party-driven content with the monthly content patches, especially with Mad King’s and Tixx’s instances, and it has almost no deep party content outside of dungeons.

Partying with your lover or personal friend is cool, but if I want to party with anyone else to meet new people and make new friends, which adventure can make me help other people? Events are a zerg. Hearts are 100% solo, there’s not even an option. Exploration is mostly solo, because everyone has different explored and unexplored maps, and it’s a waste of time going back to a place you’ve been for the sake of “helping” someone in your party. But they won’t usually even need help.

if you needed to discuss a full strategy just to complete hearts it would be less solo friendly, so if you want more freedom for parties, you would be sacrificing freedom for solos.
Also another thing – what other MMO did it differently? How is leveling in Warcraft different in this regard? Every single quest is easily doable alone and most people indeed do so.
“Everyone has different explored and unexplored maps” and what would you suggest? Force everyone to have a copy of everything is explored because some person did that exploration months ago and you want everyone to have the same kind of exploration? The exploration is not account bound, it’s character bound, meaning that if you want the same kind of exploration, create a character at the same time with your friend and agree to not to play those characters when one of you is not online. Simple!

WoW had plenty of quests you had to do with a party…
Specifically vanilla and BC.
Uhm they even had quests that were in dungeons that linked to the main world.

Like attunement or quests that started in the world and ended in the instances. Did you even play WoW?

And WoW isn’t even the first to do it i don’t even like WoW but i admit they had better party content then GW2.

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mirta.5029:

Reason?
1. Orr is really annoying and slow to do on your own
2. You want to party up and spend time with people.

there’s your reasons. It’s optional. You know what’s great about that? You are not forbidden from doing it. You know what I do half the time while exploring? Party up with my boyfriend. Help some noob from the guild. Party up with a friend. Do I have to? Thank godness no, I can solo the content pretty well and am happy about it. If you want to socialize you do, if you don’t then you don’t. Why do you want to take the freedom of choice away from people that like soloing?

I don’t want solo players to have less freedom, I want party players to have more freedom. That’s the difference. Why should one kind of players be treated better than the other?

There’s a lot more to the game than Orr. Especially when you are leveling up. And even when you party with somebody else, where is the strategy that makes partying fun?

I’ve went to Orr, and I haven’t seen party-content. I have seen group zergs, which is a completely different thing. I haven’t see party strategy. I haven’t discussed with someone on how we should beat this guy or overcome that obstacles. I have simply joined the zergs, spammed skills, and finished events while watching TV.

This is not fun. And even if it was, it’s a zone only for level 75-ish or more. What about everything else? What about the other optional maps? And the story instances?

GW2 only truly starting having casual party-driven content with the monthly content patches, especially with Mad King’s and Tixx’s instances, and it has almost no deep party content outside of dungeons.

Partying with your lover or personal friend is cool, but if I want to party with anyone else to meet new people and make new friends, which adventure can make me help other people? Events are a zerg. Hearts are 100% solo, there’s not even an option. Exploration is mostly solo, because everyone has different explored and unexplored maps, and it’s a waste of time going back to a place you’ve been for the sake of “helping” someone in your party. But they won’t usually even need help.

if you needed to discuss a full strategy just to complete hearts it would be less solo friendly, so if you want more freedom for parties, you would be sacrificing freedom for solos.
Also another thing – what other MMO did it differently? How is leveling in Warcraft different in this regard? Every single quest is easily doable alone and most people indeed do so.
“Everyone has different explored and unexplored maps” and what would you suggest? Force everyone to have a copy of everything is explored because some person did that exploration months ago and you want everyone to have the same kind of exploration? The exploration is not account bound, it’s character bound, meaning that if you want the same kind of exploration, create a character at the same time with your friend and agree to not to play those characters when one of you is not online. Simple!

WoW had plenty of quests you had to do with a party…
Specifically vanilla and BC.
Uhm they even had quests that were in dungeons that linked to the main world.

Like attunement or quests that started in the world and ended in the instances. Did you even play WoW?

And WoW isn’t even the first to do it i don’t even like WoW but i admit they had better party content then GW2.

I did, with my bf, not the vanilla though. And that sounds really sucky. Did dungeons alone when I outleveled them by far.

honestly I think the genre has just played itself out over the last ten years and it has gotten so bad there is no recovery at this point.

back when it was daoc and eq things were different.

people expected it to takes many months to level up a single character
people expected getting groups to be very hard without a guild
people expected dungeons to be extremely difficult

so on and so forth…

now people expect to be max level in under a week, they expect groups to be handed to them, and they expect dungeons and things to be nothing more than easy mode loot treadmills they repeat on a daily basis.

times change and things change, yes its true.

the thing is this genre has changed so much that its a different type of person who plays these games these days.

these days this genre is filled with self entitled people who want everything handed to them while they play on easy mode.

some people need to just let the glory days go, they are gone forever, this is all that is left.

Mirta.5029:

so if you want more freedom for parties, you would be sacrificing freedom for solos.

If they add more party-driven content, they don’t need to take away what already exists for solo players. This way, you would remain happy, and other unsatisfied players would get happier.

A game like GW2, that wants to appeal to both party players and solo players, a game that promises players that they have a choice between one or the other, must have enough content for both.

And no, party content is not meant to be experienced by solo players, and no, that doesn’t means solo players can’t enjoy this game.

Also another thing – what other MMO did it differently?

Guild Wars 1.

The prequel of this game.

etiolate.9185:

I get this feeling its a different generation from myself that has no concept of how to play a game without being forced and lead around.

I think it’s more of a MMO player things than a generational thing. There are plenty of single player, or even regular multiplayer games where you’re given a lot of freedom on which content you do and how you do it and people love it.

Look at Skyrim for one example. It’s virtually impossible to do all the content in that game on one character, and you’re free to do any of it at any time in pretty much any order (there are quest chains, and some stuff is level dependant, but other than that). It’s a hugely popular and successful game and the lack of hand holding/forced content is part of the reason for that.

MrQuizzles.6823:

I think the best part of GW2 is the large amount of ad-hoc cooperation between players. It’s something I’ve never before seen in an MMO setting. In most MMOs, you largely stay by yourself unless you’re forming a group to accomplish something. Random folk are often seen as nuisances to someone doing quests. People basically never randomly start working together without any coordination or without using the group mechanic.

That’s completely different in GW2 because it’s there’s no reason not to. You might not talk to anyone, but you’re actually interacting with other people far more than almost any other MMO.

I agree with all of this you said.

I like how I can shower someone in a healing rain, or send over a meteor shower for the baddies, if I see people in a bit of trouble and don’t have time to stop and finish the fight. I like the fact that I don’t need to group up just to help for three minutes.

I remember in GW 1, I was in a great guild with lots of active players. Even then, it took a huge amount of time to get a group together and head out (to anything). I like how I can get to a place and wait while doing something useful for myself, and not just standing in a town idling.

I am always in a group with my partner when we play, and I like the feeling of the two of us adventuring together. Therefore, I (we) don’t accept people into our group. We do help when someone calls in map chat though. We’d be jumping into the fight if the proper way point is linked.

I like the fact that there are so many things that’s optional in this game.

You hit a nail on another point why many people left GW2, and something i hear ALOT of my mmo friends talk about.

Todays mmos are to solobased, theres no grouping for anything making mmos basicly a sologame where you can see other people.

This a serious concern for me and many of my friends in future mmo, where “solo and casual” seems to be the mantra.

In the olden days, you had to group to get further down in some public dungeon, get to know new people, socialize and make new friends.

That built a much better community on your server, and if your game had a pvp function, you could later meet that guy you grouped up with in that dungeon in the PvP area and know work much better together.

Socialising is something that has been lost in recent mmos, the only ones you talk to are the ones in your guild, and barely that.

Fritz.5026:

honestly I think the genre has just played itself out over the last ten years and it has gotten so bad there is no recovery at this point.

back when it was daoc and eq things were different.

people expected it to takes many months to level up a single character
people expected getting groups to be very hard without a guild
people expected dungeons to be extremely difficult

so on and so forth…

now people expect to be max level in under a week, they expect groups to be handed to them, and they expect dungeons and things to be nothing more than easy mode loot treadmills they repeat on a daily basis.

times change and things change, yes its true.

the thing is this genre has changed so much that its a different type of person who plays these games these days.

these days this genre is filled with self entitled people who want everything handed to them while they play on easy mode.

some people need to just let the glory days go, they are gone forever, this is all that is left.

MMO’s are now made on the premise of addiction, not fun or challenge.

EQ started it, WoW perfected it.

There’s a bigger market for addicts than there is for people who play for fun or challenge.

Expect MMO’s in 10 years time to be even more addictive and less fun/challenging.

nofo.8469:

Fritz.5026:

honestly I think the genre has just played itself out over the last ten years and it has gotten so bad there is no recovery at this point.

back when it was daoc and eq things were different.

people expected it to takes many months to level up a single character
people expected getting groups to be very hard without a guild
people expected dungeons to be extremely difficult

so on and so forth…

now people expect to be max level in under a week, they expect groups to be handed to them, and they expect dungeons and things to be nothing more than easy mode loot treadmills they repeat on a daily basis.

times change and things change, yes its true.

the thing is this genre has changed so much that its a different type of person who plays these games these days.

these days this genre is filled with self entitled people who want everything handed to them while they play on easy mode.

some people need to just let the glory days go, they are gone forever, this is all that is left.

MMO’s are now made on the premise of addiction, not fun or challenge.

EQ started it, WoW perfected it.

There’s a bigger market for addicts than there is for people who play for fun or challenge.

Expect MMO’s in 10 years time to be even more addictive and less fun/challenging.

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

Mirta.5029:

nofo.8469:

Fritz.5026:

honestly I think the genre has just played itself out over the last ten years and it has gotten so bad there is no recovery at this point.

back when it was daoc and eq things were different.

people expected it to takes many months to level up a single character
people expected getting groups to be very hard without a guild
people expected dungeons to be extremely difficult

so on and so forth…

now people expect to be max level in under a week, they expect groups to be handed to them, and they expect dungeons and things to be nothing more than easy mode loot treadmills they repeat on a daily basis.

times change and things change, yes its true.

the thing is this genre has changed so much that its a different type of person who plays these games these days.

these days this genre is filled with self entitled people who want everything handed to them while they play on easy mode.

some people need to just let the glory days go, they are gone forever, this is all that is left.

MMO’s are now made on the premise of addiction, not fun or challenge.

EQ started it, WoW perfected it.

There’s a bigger market for addicts than there is for people who play for fun or challenge.

Expect MMO’s in 10 years time to be even more addictive and less fun/challenging.

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

Poorly worded on my part, most people who are addicts enjoy being addicts therefore they are having fun, its the source of the fun that I have a problem with.

Fun can come from the immediate gratification from leveling up or getting that next piece of loot no denying that. Many people pull the lever on slot machines because they are having “fun” doing so because they enjoy the feeling they get when they receive that instant gratification.

Saying that though, designing computer games around this philosophy isn’t what I would consider fun. Not saying my version of fun is better than anyone elses I’m just addressing why I feel as though MMO’s have evolved into online lobbies with various loot/money/progression delivering activities.

In that post I meant to say fun generated through gameplay elements rather than instant gratification.

Mirta.5029:

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

Grind.

Making a game that is fun is hard. Fun is subjective, so something that is fun to someone is not going to be fun for someone else. Fun content also takes a long time to be built, despite how people play quickly through it.

The solution, then, is to create content that is not fun, but that lasts a long time and that people do over and over.

The “how” was solved centuries ago. People learned that they could make donkeys run by strapping a carrot in front of their heads. The donkeys would advance trying to reach the carrot, oblivious to the fact that they would never reach it.

Now, people would, in theory, be smarter than that. In reality – no, many aren’t. And thus grind – playing through content that isn’t fun, over and over, in order to try to achieve some kind of reward. It’s incredibly easy to make grind, it’s content that keeps people busy for a long time, and it rewards time spent more than skill; a perfect combination for pay to play MMOs, since their goal is to reward people for playing more, so those players would also pay more.

The result is that MMOs have been built, in the last years, for grinders and addicts. Anyone smarter than a donkey would look at MMOs with disgust, noticing how the idea of being dealt with as addicts isn’t exactly pleasant, but not that many are that smart.

This was so successful that, now, MMO players believe a MMO is only a MMO if it has a lot of grind. They cannot understand the concept of a MMO in which grind is not the focus of the game. Hence many of the complaints about GW2, claiming that the DR system is too strict, or that it’s a conspiracy to make people buy gems; in reality, it’s simply a way to make grind unrewarding, so grinding doesn’t give people an advantage.

GW2 is, in the end, the victory of humanity over donkeys. Too bad some people want donkeys to win.

I like the ability of not having group in order to progress. I attempted my first dungeon a couple of weeks ago, and found the fact that everyone was standing outside going lfg, and no one was actually going into the dungeon confusing, I guess they were all secretly judging each other, but it was almost like the social awkwardness from real life had made it into the game. Like someone said, socialising has been lost.

I like the fact that in GW2 if you’re interested in exploring, you can spend the entire game doing that, or if you like dungeons, you can do dungeons etc etc. I like games that give me freedom and at the end of the day, I game with people that I know mainly, so we’re generally doing the same thing.

Some of my best moments have been with a randomly formed team, in Queensdale some new players joined my party for an event and in the end we spent hours wandering around and teaching them new things. It felt good to help people. And to the thief that helped me and a guild member try and topple the champion ooze, you were awesome, even if all three of us died in the end. The content is entirely soloable yes, but with a group it makes it pass quicker and is more enjoyable- it also means you can seek out things like the champions and whatnot. That said I can see why the larger guilds have nothing to challenge them with, but I guess GW2 is all about making everything accessible to everyone, the casual market with things like dungeons optional for the players that wish to undertake them. You wouldn’t buy a game if the bit you wanted to play was inaccessible unless you happened to be able to get 32 other people to go out and buy the game.

The point about addiction made above is an interesting one and I think it’s true. It’s like everyone has forgotten about the journey and are so intent on reaching their destination of best armour, lvl 80, that they fail to notice all the enjoyable content and all the other players around them.

Erasculio.2914:

Mirta.5029:

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

GW2 is, in the end, the victory of humanity over donkeys. Too bad some people want donkeys to win.

I think that sums up my feelings on GW2 pretty well. The moaning about not being able to farm or the lack of certain features that may have been expected to be shipped across from other MMORPGs depresses me more than anything.

Guild Wars is special because it is not other games, it is the humanity winning over the donkeys. For me, Guild Wars is all about the journey. There’s great moments on the journey, just as Fatfox says. Some of my fondest memories are from lower leveled areas, where the players seem to work together the best (I’ve had situations in lvl 80 areas before where countless players have walked on past an event that would have taken them under a minute to help out in and which I really needed help in). Thats why I have quite a few lower lvl characters that I like to play as lots, because the low leveled areas have a great feel to them and you can explore them your own way and do your own things.

I don’t think GW is too much like an OLG. GW is what you make of it, if you want to focus on dungeons so that you can get that dungeon armour that looks special and has a slightly higher stat to it then fine, but I much more enjoy playing what I enjoy (not the narrow pursuit of the exotic equipped lvl 80 but a fun time within a nice community). I think that really is GW’s greatest strength, it is accessible to all to make it what you want, play it like an OLG, play it soloing through or even just enjoy the journey and the beautiful scenery/soundtrack along the way.

stjf.7180:

Erasculio.2914:

Mirta.5029:

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

GW2 is, in the end, the victory of humanity over donkeys. Too bad some people want donkeys to win.

I think that sums up my feelings on GW2 pretty well. The moaning about not being able to farm or the lack of certain features that may have been expected to be shipped across from other MMORPGs depresses me more than anything.

Guild Wars is special because it is not other games, it is the humanity winning over the donkeys. For me, Guild Wars is all about the journey. There’s great moments on the journey, just as Fatfox says.

This misses the point entirely. We’re not trying to turn it into other games, but rather communicate what features we found fun and that made sense in virtual game worlds.

Farming for example… as long as there were critters alive that dropped something you needed, you could optionally farm them to your hearts content. Here, in GW2, there’s an artificial DR mechanism that stops you from doing that.

That’s not for the good of the players; that’s for the good of the cash shop.

It’s those kinds of things that they have no business doing in an MMO that is supposed to represent and open persistent world. Just one example.

Zeldain.5710:

stjf.7180:

Erasculio.2914:

Mirta.5029:

question: how can a game be addictive, but not fun?

GW2 is, in the end, the victory of humanity over donkeys. Too bad some people want donkeys to win.

I think that sums up my feelings on GW2 pretty well. The moaning about not being able to farm or the lack of certain features that may have been expected to be shipped across from other MMORPGs depresses me more than anything.

Guild Wars is special because it is not other games, it is the humanity winning over the donkeys. For me, Guild Wars is all about the journey. There’s great moments on the journey, just as Fatfox says.

This misses the point entirely. We’re not trying to turn it into other games, but rather communicate what features we found fun and that made sense in virtual game worlds.

Farming for example… as long as there were critters alive that dropped something you needed, you could optionally farm them to your hearts content. Here, in GW2, there’s an artificial DR mechanism that stops you from doing that.

That’s not for the good of the players; that’s for the good of the cash shop.

It’s those kinds of things that they have no business doing in an MMO that is supposed to represent and open persistent world. Just one example.

I think you miss the point really. You mention farming; what is the eventual aim of any farming? It is almost always for the attainment of something exclusive, for instance exotic armors. The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW is about, its about enjoying your journey through the world and through that journeying you are rewarded loot that allows you to progress with equipment that will stand you in good stead for the next areas. There is no need to farm, and introducing farming would be undoing much of what makes GW special to many people.

I’m starting to see things being posted about “its about the journey” which is avoiding which i pointed out.

But i’ll bite for a seconds.

The journey you talk of takes about 2weeks or hardcore play maybe a month of casual play 1-80+ full exotics isn’t hard, and it can be done with out whispering a word to anyone.

That’s the feel of a single player game right there, let me give you an example. Borderlands 2. The game is completely soloable with the option of co-op (upto 4players). The difference is the game rewards you for completing content not only that on higher levels of play and it is impossible to complete without coordination and skills.

GW2 has somewhat of a party driven content but it requires nothing more then the occasional dodge the red circle, or some stupidly easy gimmick. The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Its the same thing that happens in all tiers of this game why party when you can solo everything.

If this game is about the journey this game will lose traction. It may seem that i pointed out party driven content but realise Arah is the only Dungeon i enjoy and the only example of something that to be GW2 did right.

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

I’m at fotm 32…..
I play on jade quarry and i use gw2lfg.com.

Jade quarry is one of the most populated severs on NA.

From 1-32 i’ve maybe wiped 10times (if that much.)

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

I’m at fotm 32…..
I play on jade quarry and i use gw2lfg.com.

Jade quarry is one of the most populated severs on NA.

From 1-32 i’ve maybe wiped 10times (if that much.)

what class are you playing and what is your build?

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

I’m at fotm 32…..
I play on jade quarry and i use gw2lfg.com.

Jade quarry is one of the most populated severs on NA.

From 1-32 i’ve maybe wiped 10times (if that much.)

what class are you playing and what is your build?

Mesmer phatasm based with focus talents to i can help reflect projectiles in Dredge and the Flame shaman fotm and the asura one aswell.

With Phatasmal Healing and the Regen + the shatter heal mastery.

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

I’m at fotm 32…..
I play on jade quarry and i use gw2lfg.com.

Jade quarry is one of the most populated severs on NA.

From 1-32 i’ve maybe wiped 10times (if that much.)

what class are you playing and what is your build?

Mesmer phatasm based with focus talents to i can help reflect projectiles in Dredge and the Flame shaman fotm and the asura one aswell.

With Phatasmal Healing and the Regen + the shatter heal mastery.

Must have been hard to master
I’m a necro, with recent adjustments to my build, built for survival, toughness and condition damage. I still have problems in a team of squishes only. Though, bravo to you sir for playing one of the hardest classes

Genesis.5169:

The journey you talk of takes about 2weeks or hardcore play maybe a month of casual play 1-80+ full exotics isn’t hard

You are missing the point.

The “journey” he was talking about is playing to have fun. Playing to reach level 80 and get maxed gear is not playing to have fun; it’s grinding to the level cap and then grinding gear, which is how all other, donkey-based, MMOs work.

Erasculio.2914:

Genesis.5169:

The journey you talk of takes about 2weeks or hardcore play maybe a month of casual play 1-80+ full exotics isn’t hard

You are missing the point.

The “journey” he was talking about is playing to have fun. Playing to reach level 80 and get maxed gear is not playing to have fun; it’s grinding to the level cap and then grinding gear, which is how all other, donkey-based, MMOs work.

I’m not asking for better gear.
I’m not asking for grind.
I’m asking for content thats not tank and spank.
I’m asking for content that makes you want to party, that makes you want to add that guy as a friend because that place was crazy.
I’m asking for content that brings people together and fight for a common goal.

What we have is ho hey a DE is going on Zerg loot leave. And not a single word was spoken not a single test spec of coordination on anyones part was incurred.

I don’t want more gear.
I want better content geared to players who want to work together as a team and feel like it was worth it not tank and spank FotM i want more things like Arah.

Especially more things like arah in the OPEN WORLD.

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

Mirta.5029:

Genesis.5169:

The only dungeon that is an exception of that is Arah, which no one runs because this game punishes complex play because why do arah where you can goto fotm which is 30x easier.

Okay, today I had two unsuccessful runs of level 4. In one of them I actually liked the people running with me, but we died multiple times and had to give up because of the lack of time. Easier you say?! I ran Arah. I enjoyed it. Fractals are actually more difficult for me. On Underworld server you can still find groups going to all the dungeons, including Arah. Use the online LFG tool if you want to run Arah that much, though don’t say to me that Fractals are “easy” when you don’t run them that often.

I’m at fotm 32…..
I play on jade quarry and i use gw2lfg.com.

Jade quarry is one of the most populated severs on NA.

From 1-32 i’ve maybe wiped 10times (if that much.)

what class are you playing and what is your build?

Mesmer phatasm based with focus talents to i can help reflect projectiles in Dredge and the Flame shaman fotm and the asura one aswell.

With Phatasmal Healing and the Regen + the shatter heal mastery.

Must have been hard to master
I’m a necro, with recent adjustments to my build, built for survival, toughness and condition damage. I still have problems in a team of squishes only. Though, bravo to you sir for playing one of the hardest classes

Thanks it’s not hard to play it just takes dedication and understanding of how you skills work and how long your cds are, once you know how everything works you’ll always have 1 or 2 phatasms up and you’ll always be able to shatter with mindreck when its ready.

Imagine being on an elevator with people…do u engage in conversation???? U might say hello and that’s it…now imagine being stuck on an elevator..u proly will engage in conversation then…maybe make a new friend..hence non forced to forced gameplay..most of my best friends I was forced to engage with hence being in a classroom at school. Gw2 interaction is like going to Walmart..yeah there are lots of people around all doing stuff but no one really talks to people unless they came with them

Kanexus.2648:

Imagine being on an elevator with people…do u engage in conversation???? U might say hello and that’s it…now imagine being stuck on an elevator..u proly will engage in conversation then

If you only talk to people when you are forced, as opposed to when you have an opportunity to, I don’t think the issue is in the game…

There are still many things that they are building and implementing into the game so it will be more fun.

Try going to a keg brawl. Look around and you’ll see there are many other things yet to come.

Just have some patience.

stjf.7180:

I think you miss the point really. You mention farming; what is the eventual aim of any farming? It is almost always for the attainment of something exclusive, for instance exotic armors. The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW is about, its about enjoying your journey through the world and through that journeying you are rewarded loot that allows you to progress with equipment that will stand you in good stead for the next areas. There is no need to farm, and introducing farming would be undoing much of what makes GW special to many people.

“The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW2 is about”?

Hello? Did you really say that? That is the ONLY thing GW2 is about… Legendaries, other skins, etc.

And there is PLENTY of farming to do within those pursuits, and ArenaNet is controlling them artificially… conveniently you can turn to the cash shop.

If not that, then what?

CaptainCanada.5374:

There are still many things that they are building and implementing into the game so it will be more fun.

Try going to a keg brawl. Look around and you’ll see there are many other things yet to come.

Just have some patience.

But… we already paid for the game. We’re supposed to wait for it to be finished now?

An MMO is never finished, and a vanilla release is especially so. Go take a break if you feel frustrated, nothing’s stopping you from picking back up later.

“everything is optional”

While I’d agree that this is not a “bad thing”, I think the real issue is that the content is not tied together. There are lots and lots of random events happening that don’t create a story or add to any lore or even vaguely be inter related.

I played “Skyrim” for over 400hrs. There’s simply a lot of content there. I would not say that all of it was “optional” as a good percentage of the content was chained or otherwise tied together. Granted the level of quest and story intergration that a single player game like “Skyrim” would be a logistical nightmare in a MMO some of the concepts could be used in a MMO.

However, it all started with choice. If I wanted a companion, I needed to be come a ‘thane’ of one of the holds that granted them, perform a number of quests, tasks and purchase a house. If I wanted a chance to kill the emperor, I needed to join the “Dark Brotherhood” and carry out a number of “hits” and tasks all leading up to the job of taking out the emperor.

GW2 has lots of open spaces to explore but what of buildings, crypts, mines and other places? Skyrim had a few 100 holes in the ground, each one with creatures, loot and a good percentage of them with some sort of quest or back story which tied in to over world content. It all was tied together.

I might be considered a ‘casual gamer’, I don’t have time to agonize over spread sheets of stats, inventory items and map paths. I have ~3hrs an evening I can set aside to play a video game. Frankly, I don’t ‘get’ why players want to be able to ‘level’ a toon in a few days or weeks. Heck, after 400hrs I still had not reached the level cap on Skyrim!

I also don’t get how inept and casual seem to always be shuffled together in these forums. Granted, I’m not as good as others (don’t play on ‘insane’ mode) and have obligations which don’t allow me to do 12hr ‘marathon’ play sessions, I do play most games at the ‘adept’ or more difficult settings and generally don’t wish to burn through an entire game in a few days/weeks. I think a few months to reach a in game goal is perfectly fine design element.

MaRko.3165:

“everything is optional”

While I’d agree that this is not a “bad thing”, I think the real issue is that the content is not tied together. There are lots and lots of random events happening that don’t create a story or add to any lore or even vaguely be inter related.

I played “Skyrim” for over 400hrs. There’s simply a lot of content there. I would not say that all of it was “optional” as a good percentage of the content was chained or otherwise tied together. Granted the level of quest and story intergration that a single player game like “Skyrim” would be a logistical nightmare in a MMO some of the concepts could be used in a MMO.

However, it all started with choice. If I wanted a companion, I needed to be come a ‘thane’ of one of the holds that granted them, perform a number of quests, tasks and purchase a house. If I wanted a chance to kill the emperor, I needed to join the “Dark Brotherhood” and carry out a number of “hits” and tasks all leading up to the job of taking out the emperor.

GW2 has lots of open spaces to explore but what of buildings, crypts, mines and other places? Skyrim had a few 100 holes in the ground, each one with creatures, loot and a good percentage of them with some sort of quest or back story which tied in to over world content. It all was tied together.

I might be considered a ‘casual gamer’, I don’t have time to agonize over spread sheets of stats, inventory items and map paths. I have ~3hrs an evening I can set aside to play a video game. Frankly, I don’t ‘get’ why players want to be able to ‘level’ a toon in a few days or weeks. Heck, after 400hrs I still had not reached the level cap on Skyrim!

I also don’t get how inept and casual seem to always be shuffled together in these forums. Granted, I’m not as good as others (don’t play on ‘insane’ mode) and have obligations which don’t allow me to do 12hr ‘marathon’ play sessions, I do play most games at the ‘adept’ or more difficult settings and generally don’t wish to burn through an entire game in a few days/weeks. I think a few months to reach a in game goal is perfectly fine design element.

I loved skyrim too, hell I still play it and yeah I have put about 400+ hours into it as well. If you compare them on RPG, story or gameplay merit Skyrim is going to come ahead in every regard.

The advantages of a game like guildwars2 is its more social, and it should be more addictive. However the main problem I can see with guildwars 2, is its loot is actually worse than Skyrim or any other game that has loot in it period, if you want people to become addicted to instant gratification there has to be gratification.

Socially this game is rather inept as well, not too surprising given its designed for “people who hate MMO’s” lol, which is rather silly since the main strength of an MMO is the community and capability for social activities, neither of which this game capitalizes on.

Genesis.5169:

I really wanted to defend GW2 I got all my friends to play and then they pretty much told me something that changed my mind about this game.

“Too much stuff here is optional”

You don’t even have to speak to another player in game and you can get full Exotics. You don’t even have to talk to anyone and you get credit for Boss DE’s and WvW. I’m starting to notice i rarely party with anyone outside of dungeons. I don’t party with anyone in WvW either, spvpp doesn’t really count.

This entire game is solable and since it is no one communicates outside of LA.

Anyone getting this feel i’m starting to feel that the MM in MMO is lost for GW2.

You obviously have’t been to orr.. It’s not solo friendly.. You must be one of those players that like being forced to do everything… I like the fact I have a choice to party up, to chat, or whatever else there may be.

Genesis.5169:

Erasculio.2914:

Genesis.5169:

“Too much stuff here is optional”

Yes.

The game gives you the option of talking to people, not when you are forced to, but rather when you want to.

If you are playing the game by yourself, without never trying to interact with people simply because the game is not forcing you to… Why are you playing a MMO, again?

The thing is.
Everything is obtainable without help.
I play MMO’s to work with people to obtain a great goal you could not do alone. There’s none of that in GW2.

And no one ever wants to why would i want to risk repair bill on players who may not be good on content i can complete on my own?

Really? Judging others by how they play? What are the names of your characters so I’ll know who not to group with? I’m afraid I may not measure up to your high standards of game play..

Genesis.5169:

Korsbaek.9803:

and are you saying that you never failed and made the others wipe because of a mistake?

and i would like to see you get Stone Mist alone or even a Keep for that mather without cheating in any way even without any enemy attacking you

and are you groupe up with people just because your in party with them or are you grouped up with people because you do the same contend with manly the same goal as them?
i would say the later as no mather if your in a groupe or not loot is personal so its all a mather of how sociable you are and how much initiativ you take that mathers

No i haven’t not in my lifetime of GW2.
I’m far to experienced in mmo’s and gaming in general to suddenly pull aggro and kill myself and others.

Whatever..(rolls eyes)

CoRtex.2157:

GW1: Skill needed, tons of grouping and working together perfectly as a team
GW2: Random skill usage, facerolling keyboard, join party just for some extra dmg, GG

Basically this…can we get a developer response?

Well, I for one love that “too much stuff is optional”, which in my book reads as “if you don’t want to something in-game, go do something else – your choice!”.

A lot of the game is soloable, and most of it outside of instances. Since I tend to solo a lot in MMO’s anyway, I love that too.

I would like to see a lot more content which is so worthwile (because it’s fun and/or because of great drops) that I feel more compelled to party up outside of instances, and I’m pretty confident it’s coming. In the meantime, having spent 400+ hours in a non-subbed game means money well spent for me.

Zeldain.5710:

“The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW2 is about”?

Hello? Did you really say that? That is the ONLY thing GW2 is about… Legendaries, other skins, etc.

And there is PLENTY of farming to do within those pursuits, and ArenaNet is controlling them artificially… conveniently you can turn to the cash shop.

If not that, then what?

I think GW2, is at the end of the day, what each individual user makes of it. MMO’s suffer from their strength- bringing lots of people with different interests and gaming tastes together. There are people that strive for legendaries and the good specs, but at the same time there’s people that just play it like any other video game and aren’t really bothered about the other people around them, they just want to treat it as an Rpg I guess. At a long shot it’s kind of like multiculturalism, in theory, having lots of different views together should work, but because the different parties don’t intermingle it doesn’t actually work; it becomes difficult to cater for everyone’s tastes.

For example, those that like soloing like the game as it is, and those that want main group focused content don’t, so they add some group content, but then a couple of months down the line they’ll be a ‘I wish I was able to solo the whole game’ and a ‘I want more group content’ post. Even if it was completely fair people would still complain, even if you had two separate maps with the same main games bits in them just with different levels of spawn, eg Queensdale- A wandering path for soloist and Queensdale- Bandit Bonanza for groups.
I can understand wanting features from other games, but I can also see how that if that happened all the time, MMO’s wouldn’t move on and get a bigger fan-base. Money is what drives it all now :/

I myself come from the casual gamer camp, I will readily admit I’m not a ‘great player’ and not big into MMOs and don’t really spend that much time gaming. But in this case I think in order to include group content that works well, it will require a bit of give and take from both sides of the solo/ large group argument. I think Zergs are the slightly unhappy medium for that as it can keep both sides happy and that from what I gather the looting system in gw2 is fairer, than others, meaning that, even if there was group content, people would just zerg it anyway as they don’t have to worry about their team-mates stabbing them in the back as much.

This topic really encompasses everything about gaming in a roundabout way

Zeldain.5710:

stjf.7180:

I think you miss the point really. You mention farming; what is the eventual aim of any farming? It is almost always for the attainment of something exclusive, for instance exotic armors. The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW is about, its about enjoying your journey through the world and through that journeying you are rewarded loot that allows you to progress with equipment that will stand you in good stead for the next areas. There is no need to farm, and introducing farming would be undoing much of what makes GW special to many people.

“The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW2 is about”?

Hello? Did you really say that? That is the ONLY thing GW2 is about… Legendaries, other skins, etc.

And there is PLENTY of farming to do within those pursuits, and ArenaNet is controlling them artificially… conveniently you can turn to the cash shop.

If not that, then what?

I did say that, and I certainly believe it as well. If it really is all about legendaries then why did they bother making so many areas? Why did they bother putting so much design and creative effort into each and every character model? They did that because the point of GW is to enjoy it, to enjoy the GW world.

You seem to get your enjoyment from farming and level grinding. If that’s what you like, there are plenty of other MMOs out there that would do that for you much better than GW can. As for me, I like the fact that I cant farm or level grind, I like discovering the world and crafting memories in that world when players come together. That is why I will continue to play GW.

Do Arah, tournaments and 5v30 in WvW without communicating or talking to anyone and I’ll give you a meal. Or rather a medal but you can have a meal too.

Fatfox.4915:

I think GW2, is at the end of the day, what each individual user makes of it.

Sandboxes don’t make good MMOs.

stjf.7180:

If it really is all about legendaries then why did they bother making so many areas? Why did they bother putting so much design and creative effort into each and every character model? They did that because the point of GW is to enjoy it, to enjoy the GW world.

Because NCsoft/Nexon didn’t take over until one or two months before the release.

Zeldain.5710:

“The narrow pursuit of exclusive items is not what GW2 is about”?

Hello? Did you really say that? That is the ONLY thing GW2 is about… Legendaries, other skins, etc.

And there is PLENTY of farming to do within those pursuits, and ArenaNet is controlling them artificially… conveniently you can turn to the cash shop.

If not that, then what?

I actually enjoy the gameplay. I actually enjoy playing my elementalist and going out and doing random stuff, challenging myself by doing stuff that isn’t really designed to be done alone. It doesn’t have to reward me in order for it to be fun.

If you think GW2 is all about chasing rare items, then I hear that Zynga’s made a few games you might be interested in.

Also, for the person/people saying there’s no content a guild can do, you could always try the Temple of Lyssa or the Temple of Grenth in Orr. They’re the closest thing we’ve got to raids at the moment, and completing them does require a greater level of organization than your average zerg can manage. I’ve seen zergs of 20+ people fail both temples because of a lack of coordination.

The Temple of Melandru is a bit easier but still plenty difficult. With a skilled tank (has to avoid damage, not take it), you can capture it with as little as 5 people.

chronus.1326:

Fatfox.4915:

I think GW2, is at the end of the day, what each individual user makes of it.

Sandboxes don’t make good MMOs.

I meant as a unique experience for individuals, not as in a complete sandbox, I don’t want people to start building all over the place and leaving their mark like some cheap housing scheme gone wrong XD. I think the optional bits are what draw some people to the game, as if they don’t want to do it, they can do something else that they enjoy and get an equivalent reward if that’s what they’re in it for.

I have no idea if we share the same idea of a good MMO, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure and all that.
MMO itself is a fluid term, so maybe GW2 is a semi- open-worldish-RPG-MMO-part-RTS-nonlinear-in-places-linear-etc-etc beast that aims to cater for a lot of different tastes and does fairly well considering.

Hopefully more content will be added to make sure that people who want to use deep strategy and team work can do, giving a reason to talk to others but that is still accessible to the generally soloing player, who goes “Hey I feel like working in an organised team today.”

It’s pretty tough to get the balance right, too much optional stuff and those that like to be guided on an adventure get bored, and too much compulsory stuff and people who like wandering and exploring of their own accord get bored. Same with grouping and solo. Good luck ANet!