Guild Wars 2

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

That is a fair point, However i still like my eternity and i still think it should have value.

I like my minipets, but that doesn’t mean getting them means I’m winning.

This game is not p2w. You must first play a p2w game to understand this and have a perspective on the issue. That’s mostly the problem here if I had to guess.

By definition this is not a p2w game. If you want to try and rationalize a way to make it seem that way in your head, then go for it. Lots of people on the forums do just that. You will be confronted about your logic but at the end of the day we all know it’s very hard to change a person’s thinking on the Internet. However this does not change that gw2 is not a p2w game.

GBEW.5947:

Yeah your kitten rights i deviated from my wanting of having a healthy conversation, Every reply has been a kitten “lol noob” kind of statement, When in reality you all just cant seem to grasp the idea of what paying to win is. Its just not for pvp i will tell you that much. I grinded 5800 gold to end up instant buying an eternity, That took me about 2 months of nothing but farming. i couldve skipped that and went onto other things simply by buying it with my cash. That is the very definition of paying to win whether youl ike it or not. This thread was started to simply get your opinions yet when im seeing kitten like:

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO that has gold-sellers is pay to win then too. lol

You can’t seriously be defending this crap.

there is nothing to win beside pvp where gold doesn’t help you

Like i said you all seem to think if you dont pvp you have no right to think about things.

This doesn’t affect SPvP at all

see above.

I wonder why you waste time with gaming at all
SImply don’t play MMO’s that costs neither money. nor time, a double win for you

Uh what?

what defines your strength is your level

So every 80 is at the same level in terms of stats… riiiiiiight.

Theres so much more BS in this thread too. I wasnt going to a prick i was really coming into this with a level head and curiosity, thats it. But to be told it doesn’t matter because pvp is a thing, kitten off. i don’t even consider the pvp in this game good (again my opinion). mmo pvp is not my thing, That’s why i own Overwatch and rust. Yet because of this i am not valid even though i provide more than substantial evidence and facts. a level one with every legendary is something that shouldn’t happen, ever. yet you all seem to be ok with this. and to be completely honest i am ok with it too thats the entire reason i had put the Slightly in the title. because as much as i think this way i can see how yes i can obtain it via other means. MMO’s however are a genre that is meant to take time, you aren’t supposed to be able to come into the game and have the most sought after tier of anything. another excuse i have seen is that ascended is the same in terms of power, that doesnt matter at all. legendaries are kittening expensive and should take a long time to obtain.

The time and in game currency it takes to make legendary weapons is not that unreasonable if you do not convert gems to gold.

And even if it was, they are the same stats as Ascended gear which is no where near an unreasonable amount of time and in game currency to make. Stat swapping while nice is not that more powerful. Especially now that they made it really easy to do something similar with Ascended gear.

Players gain no advantage from having legendary skins. And there are not enough AP associated with any of the achievements tied to legendary weapons to make it where someone who has them gets a chest that those without can’t get.

Therefore there is no advantage gained by bypassing the time and in game currency grind and using ones credit card to buy a core Tyria legendary weapon. Without the advantage it’s not P2W.

GBEW.5947:

Yeah your kitten rights i deviated from my wanting of having a healthy conversation, Every reply has been a kitten “lol noob” kind of statement, When in reality you all just cant seem to grasp the idea of what paying to win is. Its just not for pvp i will tell you that much. I grinded 5800 gold to end up instant buying an eternity, That took me about 2 months of nothing but farming. i couldve skipped that and went onto other things simply by buying it with my cash. That is the very definition of paying to win whether youl ike it or not. This thread was started to simply get your opinions yet when im seeing kitten like:

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO that has gold-sellers is pay to win then too. lol

You can’t seriously be defending this crap.

there is nothing to win beside pvp where gold doesn’t help you

Like i said you all seem to think if you dont pvp you have no right to think about things.

This doesn’t affect SPvP at all

see above.

I wonder why you waste time with gaming at all
SImply don’t play MMO’s that costs neither money. nor time, a double win for you

Uh what?

what defines your strength is your level

So every 80 is at the same level in terms of stats… riiiiiiight.

Theres so much more BS in this thread too. I wasnt going to a prick i was really coming into this with a level head and curiosity, thats it. But to be told it doesn’t matter because pvp is a thing, kitten off. i don’t even consider the pvp in this game good (again my opinion). mmo pvp is not my thing, That’s why i own Overwatch and rust. Yet because of this i am not valid even though i provide more than substantial evidence and facts. a level one with every legendary is something that shouldn’t happen, ever. yet you all seem to be ok with this. and to be completely honest i am ok with it too thats the entire reason i had put the Slightly in the title. because as much as i think this way i can see how yes i can obtain it via other means. MMO’s however are a genre that is meant to take time, you aren’t supposed to be able to come into the game and have the most sought after tier of anything. another excuse i have seen is that ascended is the same in terms of power, that doesnt matter at all. legendaries are kittening expensive and should take a long time to obtain.

But spvp is the only place you can win over someone.
Since its a controlled 5v5 small map.

In pve all you are to everyone else is a random dude with a fancy sword, since you played for it then maybe you can use it effectivly.
But if you bought it with cash you may stumble in your rotations making the tiny power increase worthless.

WvWvW if they got more bodies then your server they will open a can of whop kitten on you.

So if you can use your sword effectively in pve your making everyone progress faster in fractal, dungeon, map meta or world boss, THEN EVERYONE IS WINNING.

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

And yet I’ve not spent any real cash on any of those things. I must have 170 Transmutation Charges, a whole bank inventory slot of Black Lion Chests, acquired dozens of Black Lion Chest Keys in-game, received all the Living Story Episodes at no cost whatsoever, more than 1000 armor skins (I only know this because I have the Achievement), etc.

Perhaps, it’s just a matter of playing the game more consistently. Or patience. I’m not sure.

Not sure if I’ve ‘won’, but I’ve certainly not paid.

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

Just to comment, There are 58 armor sets in this game. 7 are gemstore
List of armor sets

Transmutation charges are free and available in game if you’re willing to do what’s needed. I have about 70 currently and haven’t ever bought even one from the gemstore.

The black lion chests are goody bags. They are a random selection of low value items and the very rare high value items. If you don’t like them then don’t buy keys. Never buy items you aren’t satisfied with.

Costumes are released through the gem store, true. However imo that’s a valid cosmetic item to have. They put them in there in place of the armor that they no longer put in the gemstore.

The Lving Story is free to everyone who bothered to spend one minute logging in every couple of weeks. That’s hardly an onerous burden if you’re playing the game. Of course you’ll need to buy the expansion if you want to play the Season 3 living story. How else can people get to new maps where the instances are located?

Jethro.9376:

Pay 2 Win is paying for an advantage over others.

What you describe is Pay 2 Progress faster.

and it’s not really faster at all because by the time you’re level 80 you can already afford all the high end (exotic) gear you need for your character.

Funniest thread ever. There is nothing P2W about GW2, pay for convenience/saving time, yeah the game is guilty of that, but saying if you open your wallet you have a leg up on everyone else is just not true, there is nothing on the gem store you need to play the game, you don’t really need gold to play, as everything can be gotten in game, with other in game currencies, token’s, Karma etc. Not to mention that if you want to make Ascended gear all the gold in the world will not buy the the laurels needed to buy the recipe’s for it. Also you need to get the account bound items, the ore dust and fragments. So please show me again how buying gold with gems is pay to win.

True pay to win is when players who spend real cash can get things players who don’t spend cash can’t .

Being that players who DON’T spend real cash can also take advantage of the trading gold to gems/gems to gold system there is no true p2w in this game….

GBEW.5947:

Jethro.9376:

Pay 2 Win is paying for an advantage over others.

What you describe is Pay 2 Progress faster.

Progressing faster is winning…

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO that has gold-sellers is pay to win then too. lol

This is just a dumb statement. i’m 100% sure i don’t need to explain why.

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

I agree, and i also would like to ad that because this does somewhat dis encourage gold sellers (not by much but it does) that this is a decent system. still a bit annoyed at times though.

Re your first statement: no, not really. If that was the case I’d stay at home, because that’s where I end up at the end of my holidays.

Experiences are the ‘reward’ and those can’t be brought.

I can’t see this game being pay to win in any way. Just because there’s a real-world to game-currency option doesn’t necessarily make something pay-to-win. I think the term is highly misunderstood and misused these days.

There is no pay 2 win in gw2. Sorry.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

And yet I’ve not spent any real cash on any of those things. I must have 170 Transmutation Charges, a whole bank inventory slot of Black Lion Chests, acquired dozens of Black Lion Chest Keys in-game, received all the Living Story Episodes at no cost whatsoever, more than 1000 armor skins (I only know this because I have the Achievement), etc.

Perhaps, it’s just a matter of playing the game more consistently. Or patience. I’m not sure.

Not sure if I’ve ‘won’, but I’ve certainly not paid.

Just thank god you werent here at the start we had 1-79 stones that you got in game if you wanted to change look on 80 gear it was gemstore only.

I thanked anet for making the new stones when they did.

Linken.6345:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

And yet I’ve not spent any real cash on any of those things. I must have 170 Transmutation Charges, a whole bank inventory slot of Black Lion Chests, acquired dozens of Black Lion Chest Keys in-game, received all the Living Story Episodes at no cost whatsoever, more than 1000 armor skins (I only know this because I have the Achievement), etc.

Perhaps, it’s just a matter of playing the game more consistently. Or patience. I’m not sure.

Not sure if I’ve ‘won’, but I’ve certainly not paid.

Just thank god you werent here at the start we had 1-79 stones that you got in game if you wanted to change look on 80 gear it was gemstore only.

I thanked anet for making the new stones when they did.

Incorrect. The level 80 transmutation crystals were gemstore, black lion chests (which you could do key runs to get keys to open) or daily reward chests. None of mine were bought from the gemstore.

Transmutation Crystal

Linken.6345:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

And yet I’ve not spent any real cash on any of those things. I must have 170 Transmutation Charges, a whole bank inventory slot of Black Lion Chests, acquired dozens of Black Lion Chest Keys in-game, received all the Living Story Episodes at no cost whatsoever, more than 1000 armor skins (I only know this because I have the Achievement), etc.

Perhaps, it’s just a matter of playing the game more consistently. Or patience. I’m not sure.

Not sure if I’ve ‘won’, but I’ve certainly not paid.

Just thank god you werent here at the start we had 1-79 stones that you got in game if you wanted to change look on 80 gear it was gemstore only.

I thanked anet for making the new stones when they did.

Spirits, I forgot about that! Yes, thank goodness it’s not still that way. There have been a lot of great improvements to the game since launch, that is certainly one of them!

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Just to comment, There are 58 armor sets in this game. 7 are gemstore
List of armor sets

Transmutation charges are free and available in game if you’re willing to do what’s needed. I have about 70 currently and haven’t ever bought even one from the gemstore.

The black lion chests are goody bags. They are a random selection of low value items and the very rare high value items. If you don’t like them then don’t buy keys. Never buy items you aren’t satisfied with.

Costumes are released through the gem store, true. However imo that’s a valid cosmetic item to have. They put them in there in place of the armor that they no longer put in the gemstore.

The Lving Story is free to everyone who bothered to spend one minute logging in every couple of weeks. That’s hardly an onerous burden if you’re playing the game. Of course you’ll need to buy the expansion if you want to play the Season 3 living story. How else can people get to new maps where the instances are located?

Costumes are indeed a valid cosmetic item in the gemstore. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the fact that costumes are being sold in the gemstore…. it’s the fact that nearly all costumes/armor is released through the gemstore and not in-game. We’ve had a couple new armor pieces. And for those, I am grateful. But we’ve received little in the way of new armor that we can actually get in-game. You have to go through the gemstore. And I’m not talking about armor that was released at the start of GW2.

If you have trans-stones, congrats. But getting them is tedious if you’re a casual player and you’re pretty much forced to buy them if you want to transmute an entire armor set.

If you want achievement points because weapons/armor is locked behind chests, you either buy a ton of Black Lion Chest keys, or you farm for 7000+ hours for keys. That’s pay to progress if I’ve ever seen it. I don’t think I made myself entirely clear on this point. It’s not the Black Lion Chests that bother me. It’s the fact that achievements were so obviously locked behind a gem purchase.

And finally – for people with demanding jobs, it’s difficult to log into the game consistently. I have time when I have time. Anet has shown that they can bring back the Living Story as a playable instance, yet chooses to lock that behind a pay-wall as well. It sure seems like everything I want to do or obtain in this game is locked behind some wall of payment.

Galtrix.7369:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Just to comment, There are 58 armor sets in this game. 7 are gemstore
List of armor sets

Transmutation charges are free and available in game if you’re willing to do what’s needed. I have about 70 currently and haven’t ever bought even one from the gemstore.

The black lion chests are goody bags. They are a random selection of low value items and the very rare high value items. If you don’t like them then don’t buy keys. Never buy items you aren’t satisfied with.

Costumes are released through the gem store, true. However imo that’s a valid cosmetic item to have. They put them in there in place of the armor that they no longer put in the gemstore.

The Lving Story is free to everyone who bothered to spend one minute logging in every couple of weeks. That’s hardly an onerous burden if you’re playing the game. Of course you’ll need to buy the expansion if you want to play the Season 3 living story. How else can people get to new maps where the instances are located?

Costumes are indeed a valid cosmetic item in the gemstore. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the fact that costumes are being sold in the gemstore…. it’s the fact that nearly all costumes/armor is released through the gemstore and not in-game. We’ve had a couple new armor pieces. And for those, I am grateful. But we’ve received little in the way of new armor that we can actually get in-game. You have to go through the gemstore. And I’m not talking about armor that was released at the start of GW2.

If you have trans-stones, congrats. But getting them is tedious if you’re a casual player and you’re pretty much forced to buy them if you want to transmute an entire armor set.

If you want achievement points because weapons/armor is locked behind chests, you either buy a ton of Black Lion Chest keys, or you farm for 7000+ hours for keys. That’s pay to progress if I’ve ever seen it. I don’t think I made myself entirely clear on this point. It’s not the Black Lion Chests that bother me. It’s the fact that achievements were so obviously locked behind a gem purchase.

And finally – for people with demanding jobs, it’s difficult to log into the game consistently. I have time when I have time. Anet has shown that they can bring back the Living Story as a playable instance, yet chooses to lock that behind a pay-wall as well. It sure seems like everything I want to do or obtain in this game is locked behind some wall of payment.

The last armor that was released in the gemstore was April 15, 2014. That was over 2 years ago. Since then we’ve had Carapace/Luminescent, Bladed, Leystone, Hero, and Glorious Hero as well as the re-release of 2 armors that have been missing for several years. Now granted that’s not a lot but complaining about gemstore armor when we haven’t had any new gemstore armor in over 2 years is complaining about an old system that’s long gone and over with.

If you have trans-stones, congrats. But getting them is tedious if you’re a casual player and you’re pretty much forced to buy them if you want to transmute an entire armor set.
I’m a casual player. Do your PvP dailies in a PvP daily room run by and for PvE players and you’ll get your T charges. That’s where I get mine and it takes me 8 minutes or less a day to do this.

And finally – for people with demanding jobs, it’s difficult to log into the game consistently.
All that’s required for a free Living Story is to log on once every two week. You don’t even have to play. You can push the logon button, select a character, appear in game, log out. That’s it. Set a timer of some sort if you’re not going to log on to play for weeks on end to remind you to log on for this.

If you want achievement points because weapons/armor is locked behind chests, you either buy a ton of Black Lion Chest keys, or you farm for 7000+ hours for keys.
why are you even concerned about these points? This is for the high octane achievement hunters with a gazillion achievement points who want that one more point. You can’t even log on often enough to get the Living Story for free. Why don’t you go for the other achievement points and not worry about these few. These are points designed for the hard core achievement point hunters, not for people who only play occasionally. You should have lots of other free achievement points you can be looking to get, not these that aren’t designed for the casual player.

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t pay to win, because anyone can get that stuff without taking out a credit card. Hell you can’t even buy ascended armor, weapons or trinkets.

Trinkets anyone can get through fractals, guild missions and laurels. Weapons and armor are crafted, or drops.

Even if you pay money you still have to play the game to get dragonite ore, empyreal fragments and bloodstone.

You have to get your crafting professions to 500.

It’s faster if you break out a credit card, but many of us farmed and had plenty of mats leading up to the release of weapons and armor.

I know I made all that stuff without breaking out my wallet and I had it pretty fast.

Not sure how you think that’s pay to win.

And by staying relevant I do mean buying the stuff you need to compete in end game content.

Galtrix.7369:

Guild Wars 2 most definitely isn’t Pay-2-win. It is, however, Pay-2-progress, which is even worse.

The simple problem is that the amount of cash-grabs in this game is beyond ridiculous and people don’t even realize it. Most people I know actually spend more on GW2 than a subscription-based MMO because of this.

-When Anet added the transmogrification system, they added transmogrification stones. This isn’t such an obvious cash-grab, seeing as how these stones can be earned in-game without spending money, but they are rare enough that they push you to buy them with gems.

-Nearly all armor skins/costumes are released through the gem-store. This one makes me angry, simply because it completely breaks all immersion. No, you don’t go on a quest to get awesome-looking armor, no you don’t slay any enemies…. you simply have to buy your armor on the gemstore because none gets released in-game.

-Achievement points were locked behind armor skins attainable only through Black Lion Chests, which you have to pay gems for.

-Previous LS content being locked and then sold back to you for gems. What.

-The drop rate for rare skins/good items in Black Lion Chests is utterly abysmal… therefore causing you to buy more in order to get what you want.

…and many more that I’ve forgotten over the past few years.

I absolutely love this game, but the amount of cash-grabs that have been added has made me quit multiple times. It’s definitely not Pay-2-win, but if you want to get that new armor skin, new weapon, new anything, it’s going to cost you gems….

I’ve got to disagree with this. I’ve been playing since the headstart weekend, never taken a long break and I’m completely willing and able to spend real money on the game, but I’ve never bought any of the things you’ve listed.

Here’s a total list of things I’ve gotten from the gem store in almost 4 years of playing:

• 3x Bank Tab (only when on sale)
• 3x Character Slot (only when on sale)
• 10x Shared Bank Slot
• 2x Infinite Pickaxe
• 1 Infinite Logging Axe
• 1 Infinite Harvesting Sickle
• Infinite Continue Coin
• Pirate costume (refunded, got it when it was town clothes)
• Noble Count Outfit
• Wedding Outfit
• Black Wing set
• Bat Wing set
• Fuzzy Panda Hat
• Bunny Ears
• Reading glasses
• Confetti Mail Carrier
• Quaggan Finisher
• Unicorn Finisher
• All the mini pets

I’d say only the top 2 on that list (bank tabs and character slots) affect my ability to play the game. The next 5 are nice to have (infinite tools & SAB coin, shared slots) but if I wasn’t willing to spend the money I could easily play without them and therefore didn’t feel any pressure to get them. (I actually used gold to get the shared slots because I didn’t think they were worth the real money price).

All the rest (which notably only includes 3 outfits and no armour) is absolutely optional, which means I certainly wouldn’t call it a cash grab. I like having it and I’m happy I bought it but I didn’t feel any pressure to get them.

And for the record I’m not actively avoiding gem store armour and weapons, I’m currently using the Chaos sword on my main character. It’s just that there’s so many skins available in-game and other ways to get the gem store ones that I’ve never felt the need to buy them. And I get more than enough transmutation charges from login rewards, map rewards and other places that I’ve never needed to buy them.

I’m not going to try and add up the prices (especially when I got some with a combination of gold and gems and some on sale etc.) but all together it comes to a lot less than the £432 I’d have spent if I’d been subscribing to my other MMO for 4 years (£9 a month, which I think is about average for subscriptions).

the term pay to win is a legacy from other mmo like WOW where the games reason to exist is for the payers to constantly play to become the most powerful, its a race, and races can be won and lost. Imagine a marathon race where the length of the race continually grows, but the race organizers offer shortcuts for money – this is pay to win.

in GW2 you pay for what will give you pleasure and that includes progress. The Key difference is that pay for progress/pleasure has no negative effect, there is no negative for not progressing so therefore its a positive decision whereas paying to win has many well known negatives.

Let’s finish this by rembering that:

Every game somehow embeded into real-world is pay to win as real-world is pay to win
If the game doesn’t support it, you can still

• hire someone to play the parts for you you do not like to play
• buy the company that produced the game and enter god-mode.

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

Yes, your personal definition of “winning” is lost on me. Ascended gear may be acquired for free by playing the game. My main (started playing this year) is in nearly full ascended via login rewards (laurels), random drops (fractals, SW, raids, etc.), and collections. I did craft a couple of ascended pistols and a dagger before I realized what a waste of gold that is, though.

But the real reason that doesn’t feel like winning to me is that I don’t need ascended gear for anything. The only content that requires it also provides so much of it that you end up salvaging ascended gear just to clear bank space!

Just play the game. You’ll get ascended gear. You can get it faster via crafting and spending obscene amounts of gold, but there’s no win to it because you don’t need the gear for anything but fractals which will provide the gear you need as you progress anyway.

But you know what? That does mean we agree! The thread title is that the game is slightly P2W. I can agree with that. It’s so slight it isn’t an issue for me!

So, if so many people are converting cash to gems to gold and buying “win” why does the price of gems for gold keep going up? Looks to me like it’s more “part-time job that pays less than minimum wage so I don’t have to buy gems with a credit card.”

GBEW you’re not trying to have a healthy debate so that’s why you got the responses you did. Also you can’t dismiss someone’s argument because you felt they were saying “lol noob” or something similar, because you’re no longer trying to debate points. That said this game is pay to win. Though it’s only pay to win for one game mode and that’s wvw.

The reason pve isn’t pay to win, is because you can’t argue that another player is doing immensely better then you because they went to cash shop and you didn’t. The only thing that creates gold in this game are things like fractals, dungeons, events, and other similar things. So when someone buys elonian leather, bolts of damask, and all the other materials for crafting who is being hurt and who is being taken advantage of? No one is because someone got gems and someone got gold, and then someone got materials and someone got gold.

If you mean someone buying a legendary out right, that also can’t be argued because that is entirely preference. Some people think under water legendaries are garbage. Others feel the need to say they don’t understand why anyone would make a legendary in map chat since they have the same stats as ascended every time someone makes one, and links the final steps. Then some feel it shows their skill and prestige as a player because they made it without any help. They’re all right and they’re all wrong, that’s how perception and opinions work, however the fact that no one can get an unfair advantage in pve remains true.

Also you seem to not be understanding what players getting ascended means for pve. Ignoring skill level, reaction time, and that these people are somehow super inexperienced, because they just bought their armor since there’s no way to know that. They have ascended armor and weapons now, so when you are doing an event, fractal, or dungeon with them, they. are. helping. you.

Then finally if you’re going to argue anything, you need to hit this point, because you don’t realize it’s basis of the side you’re arguing. Who’s losing? What can’t they do, because of pay to win?

You have yet to see what a real P2W game is really like. The P2W factor here is so insignficiant that it can be passed off as a joke but if you really that anal about the very insigificant bit of P2W so to prove your point that it is P2W, then so be it, you happy can already.

This game cuts a pretty fine line in the P2W schema. Getting highest tier stats means crafting. Crafting requires lots of materials that can be bought with gold on the TP, so you can literally, buy yourself to that point. However, you still have to play the game to get the stuff to make the vision crystals.

Ascended gear is for fractals, and gives a moderate boost in WvW and open world via WvW infusions, as small as they are. However, if you nitpick, one could say it is “F2P”.

Its not a bad thing. It generates profit for them to do more for us, so for paying customers, its a win/win.

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

No they actualy have a point here, other mmos the one who are level 100 dont battle in spvp maps with people who are 90 or lower.

But a unlimitied free to try shouldent be considerered pay to win if all they have to do is pay for the game.
Same as everyone else to be 100% competetive in spvp.

Edit
Also anet should have seperate que´s for hot and none hot accounts (it would eliminiate the presived pay to win)

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

if you really believe this than your p2w definition misses many of the most agregious offenders.
the vast majority of cash shop games do not sell unique power boosts, they sell things that are a lot harder to get through normal play.
rare drops, endgame armor, experience or level boosts.

one of the main arguments against p2w games is they make unreasonable goals/systems, so they can sell people ways to get around it.

if you want to define p2w some other way you arent really saying anything, because its pretty easy to make an item drop at .0001 rate and magically by your definition make the game not pay to win, which is the model many p2w games use.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t pay to win, because anyone can get that stuff without taking out a credit card. Hell you can’t even buy ascended armor, weapons or trinkets.

Trinkets anyone can get through fractals, guild missions and laurels. Weapons and armor are crafted, or drops.

Even if you pay money you still have to play the game to get dragonite ore, empyreal fragments and bloodstone.

You have to get your crafting professions to 500.

It’s faster if you break out a credit card, but many of us farmed and had plenty of mats leading up to the release of weapons and armor.

I know I made all that stuff without breaking out my wallet and I had it pretty fast.

Not sure how you think that’s pay to win.

And by staying relevant I do mean buying the stuff you need to compete in end game content.

whether it is possible to earn in game is not relevant, most p2w games give you some method to earn things in game. if you are putting these games in a dif category, you miss some of worst examples, like buying raid level gear, super rare drops, etc.

Also the fact some minimal level of play is required, does not negate p2w, for example most of items sold in p2w shops have a level requirement, does it not become p2w since they had to level their charachters?

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

The term Pay-to-Win was coined due to people buying power to defeat other players in PvP matches, duels or open world fights. So, yes, when you say P2W you are inviting discussion of PvP. That’s what the term means.

You’re using it because the the MMO fan base thinks of P2W as very bad. You seem to think that the negative meaning attached to the term enhances your argument. It doesn’t. It means that instead of discussing your concern, we’re discussing whether the term P2W applies. It doesn’t.

Earlier in the thread I linked to an MMOGAMES article on 5 tiers of Pay to Win. I’ll summarize them here.

• Convenience Items – these include boosters, inventory slots and the like. Even the author acknowledges that most players don’t see this as Pay to Win. For GW2, most players consider these items as either way overpriced for convenience, like the perma-gathering tools, salvage kits, gathering nodes or the passes to hubs like the airship; or they are worthless drops from BLC like boosters, express contacts, revive orbs. Only a few like bank, bag and collection slots are popular convenience items.
• Subscriptions – Since GW2 doesn’t have these this doesn’t apply to us. Many so called F2P games offer subscriptions but under the name Gold tier or VIP.
• Content Check – Many F2P games lock off content from it’s F2P players, offering access as a perk to their “not a subscription” VIP tier or as a one time fee just like a paid expansion in a non-F2P game as ours. Of course this means WoW is also “Pay to Win” and pretty much any MMO that ever sells expansions, like GW2.
• Buying Gold – Well can’t deny we don’t have this but as I stated earlier that as long as RMT companies exist, a player can buy in game currency in every popular MMO, at risk and any game officially offering this simply wants a cut of the money players are already spending with the lure being risk free but at a lower exchange rate. In GW2 gold can be often used to short cut time-gated material crafting as well as acquiring ultra rare (tiny supply/huge demand) items like precursors, legendaries, limited available minis, etc.
• Purchased Power – direct selling of more powerful gear that can only be acquired with cash. GW2 doesn’t have this. This is what most players think of when the phrase “Pay to Win” is tossed around.

Let the nitpicking begin.

Gw2 became pay to win when HoT was released.

What do you define as winning? If it’s fashion wars, then yes this game is very much P2W. If it’s being a superior player in order to beat some game content, then no, it’s not P2W. If you are impatient and skip to end tier content, then yes, I can see how you feel this way, but that’s not true P2W, that is PBII, Paying Because I’m Impatient.

In the end that’s your choice, it’s an avenue players have and it’s not forced upon them.

Well you can argue all mmos are P2W. You can convert gems into gold. Which in turn you can use that gold to buy your way thru pvp, raids, fractals and dungeons, even though I don’t think anyone sell dungeons anymore. You can use that gold to craft weps and level. If anything it pay for convenience for the lazy players. You will never have the upper hand over a person who doesn’t use gems/gold in that manner.

phys.7689:

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

if you really believe this than your p2w definition misses many of the most agregious offenders.
the vast majority of cash shop games do not sell unique power boosts, they sell things that are a lot harder to get through normal play.
rare drops, endgame armor, experience or level boosts.

one of the main arguments against p2w games is they make unreasonable goals/systems, so they can sell people ways to get around it.

if you want to define p2w some other way you arent really saying anything, because its pretty easy to make an item drop at .0001 rate and magically by your definition make the game not pay to win, which is the model many p2w games use.

If people want to pay to not play the game Im fine with that, thats what most of this pay to progress faster to then end is imo.

And then please tell me what are this drop that only drop 0.000000001 and give you a advantage over other players in this game?
Becouse I havent seen it in over 5000 hours in said game

your right its soooo pay2win you should just leave because how could you compete. ooohhhhhhhhhh

It’s pretty obvious that the OP has created his own definition of pay 2 win and therefore has declared GW2 is pay 2 win.

Behellagh.1468:

Earlier in the thread I linked to an MMOGAMES article on 5 tiers of Pay to Win. I’ll summarize them here.

• Convenience Items – these include boosters, inventory slots and the like. Even the author acknowledges that most players don’t see this as Pay to Win. For GW2, most players consider these items as either way overpriced for convenience, like the perma-gathering tools, salvage kits, gathering nodes or the passes to hubs like the airship; or they are worthless drops from BLC like boosters, express contacts, revive orbs. Only a few like bank, bag and collection slots are popular convenience items.
• Subscriptions – Since GW2 doesn’t have these this doesn’t apply to us. Many so called F2P games offer subscriptions but under the name Gold tier or VIP.
• Content Check – Many F2P games lock off content from it’s F2P players, offering access as a perk to their “not a subscription” VIP tier or as a one time fee just like a paid expansion in a non-F2P game as ours. Of course this means WoW is also “Pay to Win” and pretty much any MMO that ever sells expansions, like GW2.
• Buying Gold – Well can’t deny we don’t have this but as I stated earlier that as long as RMT companies exist, a player can buy in game currency in every popular MMO, at risk and any game officially offering this simply wants a cut of the money players are already spending with the lure being risk free but at a lower exchange rate. In GW2 gold can be often used to short cut time-gated material crafting as well as acquiring ultra rare (tiny supply/huge demand) items like precursors, legendaries, limited available minis, etc.
• Purchased Power – direct selling of more powerful gear that can only be acquired with cash. GW2 doesn’t have this. This is what most players think of when the phrase “Pay to Win” is tossed around.

Let the nitpicking begin.

you can never judge a game system and design from the aspect of illegal or things that break the rules of the game.

that would be like saying basketball is ultra violent because people in prison shank people while playing.

im not sayng gw2 is the worst example of p2w, but it is a part of the game, intentionally so.

Linken.6345:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

No they actualy have a point here, other mmos the one who are level 100 dont battle in spvp maps with people who are 90 or lower.

But a unlimitied free to try shouldent be considerered pay to win if all they have to do is pay for the game.
Same as everyone else to be 100% competetive in spvp.

Edit
Also anet should have seperate que´s for hot and none hot accounts (it would eliminiate the presived pay to win)

You mean like in open world PvP which many games have? And there are other advantages besides just levels, like hte ability to twink lower level characters. It’s not all about just raising the level cap.

I’ve never seen a game that doesn’t give you an advantage to buying the new game in some form of competition.

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

if you really believe this than your p2w definition misses many of the most agregious offenders.
the vast majority of cash shop games do not sell unique power boosts, they sell things that are a lot harder to get through normal play.
rare drops, endgame armor, experience or level boosts.

one of the main arguments against p2w games is they make unreasonable goals/systems, so they can sell people ways to get around it.

if you want to define p2w some other way you arent really saying anything, because its pretty easy to make an item drop at .0001 rate and magically by your definition make the game not pay to win, which is the model many p2w games use.

If people want to pay to not play the game Im fine with that, thats what most of this pay to progress faster to then end is imo.

And then please tell me what are this drop that only drop 0.000000001 and give you a advantage over other players in this game?
Because I havent seen it in over 5000 hours in said game

precursors, i havent gotten one from monster/chest in 3000? hours
ascended drops, i think i have gotten 4 in that time.

if you try to get either precursors/legendaries or ascended in other ways, you are looking at 100s of hours of work, which you can skip by paying.

you play a lot, so you see it as no big deal, but someone who wants to try raids, or fractals, or have the top teir gear in wvw, or open world, who doesnt have 100s of hours to grind sees it differently.

i will say that gw2 is far from the worst offender in this f2p model, and in f2p its not likely to find many games that arent some degree of pay2win. but lets not lie to ourselves and claim that real money doesnt buy you power in this game.

the truth is most people are ok with limited p2w, if it saves them on fees, and is not insurmountable given their playtimes. (if they care about top stats)

phys.7689:

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

if you really believe this than your p2w definition misses many of the most agregious offenders.
the vast majority of cash shop games do not sell unique power boosts, they sell things that are a lot harder to get through normal play.
rare drops, endgame armor, experience or level boosts.

one of the main arguments against p2w games is they make unreasonable goals/systems, so they can sell people ways to get around it.

if you want to define p2w some other way you arent really saying anything, because its pretty easy to make an item drop at .0001 rate and magically by your definition make the game not pay to win, which is the model many p2w games use.

If people want to pay to not play the game Im fine with that, thats what most of this pay to progress faster to then end is imo.

And then please tell me what are this drop that only drop 0.000000001 and give you a advantage over other players in this game?
Because I havent seen it in over 5000 hours in said game

precursors, i havent gotten one from monster/chest in 3000? hours
ascended drops, i think i have gotten 4 in that time.

if you try to get either precursors/legendaries or ascended in other ways, you are looking at 100s of hours of work, which you can skip by paying.

you play a lot, so you see it as no big deal, but someone who wants to try raids, or fractals, or have the top teir gear in wvw, or open world, who doesnt have 100s of hours to grind sees it differently.

i will say that gw2 is far from the worst offender in this f2p model, and in f2p its not likely to find many games that arent some degree of pay2win. but lets not lie to ourselves and claim that real money doesnt buy you power in this game.

the truth is most people are ok with limited p2w, if it saves them on fees, and is not insurmountable given their playtimes. (if they care about top stats)

Its not pay to win its pay to skip….. if you got time you can get the same as the one who pays for it.

Pay to win is buying something someone else cant get without paying the same.

I play alot I get ascended boxes, you work alot you buy gems transfer to gold then craft your ascended…. we are now on equal footing gearwise.

But since I play alot I know my class better and beat you anyway or maybe your younger so you beat me with quicker reactions. Then this game is not pay to win, since you dont win over me automaticly by paying.

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

There is really no point because definitions and academic discussions don’t affect the kinds of items Anet are going to put into the GStore. If people don’t like it, they have options, including leaving the game if it bothers them that much.

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game