Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

i never said expansions are pay2win, but thats an entirely new discussion, because the nature of monetization has changed.

back in the day there were few free games that were designed to make money. it was understood you were always going to have to buy games. for many today this is no longer assumed to be true.

the reality is nothing is really “free” and at some point money is going to come into the equation.
pay to win is most likely going to be in any long term game without a subscription(and some with subscriptions) because people tend to be willing to pay for things that increase value. The simplest way to give value in any game is to increase your liklihood of winning.

as far as f2p goes, its becoming not a question of p2w, but more a question of how much p2w can exist while still making the game profitable.

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

there are plenty of things based on severity. Someone that has a bad day once and awhile is not depressed. You need to meet certain criteria for depression and one bad day a month does not meet that. The criteria defines what depression is. Just like several people have pointed out criteria for p2w games and how gw2 does not meet that criteria. So anyway this thread is a waste of time. Good day to you sir. I hope your more adaptable in real life.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

i never said expansions are pay2win, but thats an entirely new discussion, because the nature of monetization has changed.

back in the day there were few free games that were designed to make money. it was understood you were always going to have to buy games. for many today this is no longer assumed to be true.

the reality is nothing is really “free” and at some point money is going to come into the equation.
pay to win is most likely going to be in any long term game without a subscription(and some with subscriptions) because people tend to be willing to pay for things that increase value. The simplest way to give value in any game is to increase your liklihood of winning.

as far as f2p goes, its becoming not a question of p2w, but more a question of how much p2w can exist while still making the game profitable.

People’s assumptions may have changed. But that doesn’t change the original definition of what pay to win means. Pay to win had a meaning. You could buy power for cash in the cash shop. That’s just not true here. You can’t make it easier to get power, but you can’t buy power.

And you can get all the same stuff by playing in game.

The problem is the original words pay to win had a definition that comes with an implication. You can change the definition but if you can’t get rid of the implication than comes with it, you’re maligning a company for no reason.

Since it never included expansions, if you decide to include them now you pretty much have to include everyone and that means every MMORPG is pay to win. If that’s the case the original value of the words is gone.

It was designed to let people know this game is not a legitimate product because you’d get some sort of competitive edge from paying cash that you couldn’t earn in game.

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

i never said expansions are pay2win, but thats an entirely new discussion, because the nature of monetization has changed.

back in the day there were few free games that were designed to make money. it was understood you were always going to have to buy games. for many today this is no longer assumed to be true.

the reality is nothing is really “free” and at some point money is going to come into the equation.
pay to win is most likely going to be in any long term game without a subscription(and some with subscriptions) because people tend to be willing to pay for things that increase value. The simplest way to give value in any game is to increase your liklihood of winning.

as far as f2p goes, its becoming not a question of p2w, but more a question of how much p2w can exist while still making the game profitable.

People’s assumptions may have changed. But that doesn’t change the original definition of what pay to win means. Pay to win had a meaning. You could buy power for cash in the cash shop. That’s just not true here. You can’t make it easier to get power, but you can’t buy power.

And you can get all the same stuff by playing in game.

The problem is the original words pay to win had a definition that comes with an implication. You can change the definition but if you can’t get rid of the implication than comes with it, you’re maligning a company for no reason.

Since it never included expansions, if you decide to include them now you pretty much have to include everyone and that means every MMORPG is pay to win. If that’s the case the original value of the words is gone.

It was designed to let people know this game is not a legitimate product because you’d get some sort of competitive edge from paying cash that you couldn’t earn in game.

pay to win always meant, winning the game. which means its going to be different as applied to different games.

for mmos, winning is generally considered to reach peak level strength, and be able to complete endgame actvities efficiently.

most peoples bad examples of p2w are not about beating another player, they are about how much easier it is complete whatever the games main goals are by paying money.

you are saying gw2 isnt that bad because you can attain the same level of power as people who spend without excessive effort.

thats an argument of degree, not an argument of nature.

or are you saying that as long as it is in anyway possible to obtain something without paying then it cant be p2w.

because that is a cheesy out that makes the p2w term useless for describing the concept it was meant to describe.

if 1/10000 players can find godsword, its no longer p2w when its in the cash shop? may as well throw out the term then

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Like “Grind”, “Pay to Win”’s definition is in the eye of the beholder.

Someone please tell me what I can pay $1 for everytime I join WvW in order to win the the matchup. I dont know what it is but if GW2 is p2w I want it. Is it a 30m Quaggan outfit that gives +500 in every stat? I still want it.

Dawdler.8521:

Someone please tell me what I can pay $1 for everytime I join WvW in order to win the the matchup. I dont know what it is but if GW2 is p2w I want it. Is it a Quaggan outfit that gives +500 in every stat? I still want it.

Pay me to train you !

Ill be your sensei for only 9.99$

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

Behellagh.1468:

Like “Grind”, “Pay to Win”’s definition is in the eye of the beholder.

and as murky as each concept is, its extremely important for mmos/f2ps to understand the concepts enough to find the right balance of these two elements

i agree very much that gw2 has a tad of p2w. however, that’s something that i actually want in the game. on one side ideologically no p2w whatsoever is always something i cherish and hold up high but on the other side with my limited play time i wouldn’t get anything done without every now and then investing in gems -> gold.
i think gw2 has struck a very good balance. especially because the transaction goes both ways and 24/7 grinders can theoretically also have all the gemstore shinies.
obviously you could agrue that anything is p2w that gives you any kind of advantage in a game but i think most people would consider purchasable progress a “minor p2w” instead of flat out strength advantage.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

Guild wars 2: where you can buy gold directly from the publisher and the fans will gut you for saying its paying to win. Lol.

At this point im juts gonna go ahead and say screw it, you’re wrong. It is 100% paying to win regardless of others opinions.

It is.Every game that lets you free to get better gear with real money without playing the game before someone who farms the same gear by playing the game is p2w.

phys.7689:

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

Thats not pay 2 win though. Thats a different thing. Its also not entirerly true in GW2.

If you have one player paying $50 to get the game and jump into PvP compared to one paying $50+$150 in gems→gold to join the same PvP… the latter has nothing as an advantage except buying a few amulets – something unlikely to make him win since both are noobs.

If you want pay 2 win, heres an imaginary scenario:
Repairs of armor can only be done with a cashshop item that cost $1. Each damaged armor piece reduces the stats on it by 33%. You get 1 free repair item every week.

That would be p2w since whoever got cash can just throw themselves at the enemy.

GW2 is p2w only in regards to PvP, as expansion accounts have an advantage over all other accounts with the elite specs (which is almost all cases are better), runes, sigils etc. If the expansion accounts were not in the same pool of players as all other accounts then it wouldn’t be considered p2w as that advantage wouldn’t exist.

People who buy expansions for other games usually have their expansion advantages moved to a higher section of the game(part of the reason for new levels), players who get higher levels and new spells etc get placed in their own brackets, not the case in gw2 since everyone is 80 and play in the same pool of players.

There is no p2w in regards to pve as far I can think of, there aren’t any paid for rewards that hold an advantage over other players, just convenience and cosmetic items. That section of the game is just pay to progress, like any other expansion for other mmo’s. You can pay for potion boost, but you can also get them for free too.

Dunno why people get so worked up over the labeling.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

But you don’t need to pay to do that content. That’s the point. You can do that content without paying, or getting ascended gear and you can get ascended gear without paying.

Saying that you can’t do raids with say just ascended jewelry (which you can) is false. P2W had a definition for years. This wasn’kitten

By your definition Guild Wars 1 was pay to win as well, since each expansion gave access to different skills, or even entire professions that weren’t available to people who didn’t have that expansion.

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

He won without paying. That exactly makes it not pay to win.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

But you don’t need to pay to do that content. That’s the point. You can do that content without paying, or getting ascended gear and you can get ascended gear without paying.

Saying that you can’t do raids with say just ascended jewelry (which you can) is false. P2W had a definition for years. This wasn’kitten

By your definition Guild Wars 1 was pay to win as well, since each expansion gave access to different skills, or even entire professions that weren’t available to people who didn’t have that expansion.

not sure why you keep putting expansion as p2w up, i have never claimed it was. p2w has included paying for power that can be earned through great effort for a long time. it isnt some new thing

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win dated 2011

etc, most definitions of p2w dont exclude things just because it can be gotten in game.

also there is no universal or original accepted definition of p2w, its a word only created in recent times to describe certain game designs.

most discussions i see include buying top teir gear for real money as p2w.

Cute. Clearly I hurt your feelings with that last one, but I’m going to ignore the snarky comment on my education and stick to the issue at hand. There is literally nothing in this game that will give you any kind of advantage that you can’t earn with a little effort. At worst, you have to pay for skins that are purely cosmetic, and really you don’t have to pay for those either. Why don’t you use your little pyramid scheme money you mentioned in your other post to buy gems for gold. Because you can do that.

Squee.7829:

He won without paying. That exactly makes it not pay to win.

paying in order to win doesnt exclude winning by other means

did i pay to win a fight, if i pay someone to take a dive?
does the fact that someone else really beat him change the fact that i paid to win?

K again, whether you like it or not, it’s paying to win. you literally can’t argue this and make a valid point at the same time. Have some common sense people.

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Under that logic, EVERYTHING is “pay to win” and there’s no way to escape it. You COULD have paid the guy to take a dive. Or you COULD have beat him yourself. Nothing in this world said you could not try to do it yourself and that you MUST pay him.
Alternatively, I can build my own house using resources I gather and process myself and learn architecture, carpentry, etc. Or I can just buy a house. Nothing says I can’t build my own house, and nothing says I can’t use money I earned doing other things to just purchase it. I have options. “Pay to win” might not mean working for it isn’t an option, but it is certainly implied. No one said “It’s pay and/or work to win”.
There are plenty of games out there (that usually flood in by the thousands from S. Korea) that have some stupid gimmick like “Use this pass to get past level 10!” and only make the pass available for real world money. Those are considered “pay to win” Because you have to pay. There’s no other option.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

But you don’t need to pay to do that content. That’s the point. You can do that content without paying, or getting ascended gear and you can get ascended gear without paying.

Saying that you can’t do raids with say just ascended jewelry (which you can) is false. P2W had a definition for years. This wasn’kitten

By your definition Guild Wars 1 was pay to win as well, since each expansion gave access to different skills, or even entire professions that weren’t available to people who didn’t have that expansion.

not sure why you keep putting expansion as p2w up, i have never claimed it was. p2w has included paying for power that can be earned through great effort for a long time. it isnt some new thing

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win dated 2011

etc, most definitions of p2w dont exclude things just because it can be gotten in game.

also there is no universal or original accepted definition of p2w, its a word only created in recent times to describe certain game designs.

most discussions i see include buying top teir gear for real money as p2w.

Okay let’s try another angle.

Is WoW pay to win? Is Guild Wars 1 pay to win? What MMOs, by your definition are not pay to win?

P2W is using gear stats that are better than the other persons gear and stats
buy paying amounts of money to obtain that special gear
like NEVERWINTER ONLINE

since guild wars 2 pvp is balanced in terms of gear and levels
it is all about skill

but HOT expansion have brought new set of skills for professions
it could be debatable if one payed expansion class is better than the original class

I think I’m of the opinion now that “Pay to Win” is a term that only has value in derailing discussions about anything else. It has a historical meaning, that’s become moot since many people playing MMOs weren’t alive when it was coined, and it now means all sorts of things to different people.

There’s no value in using a term that doesn’t mean the same to everyone reading or hearing it. So any time I see someone use it, I’m going to see if I can figure out what they are trying to say and if I need to, I’ll ask.

Here’s what the OP wrote:

i was kind of shocked that i was able to buy gold with gems, it screams p2w. ..and just played and for the most part i ignored the gem store. However lately now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

Ignoring the term “pay to win”, they are saying they don’t like that someone can acquire a first generation legendary simply by buying gems and converting it to gold.

That’s it.

They are entitled to that opinion and I think it’s clear from this thread (as well as others) that most people don’t care. Most people aren’t going to spend hundreds of dollars for a single shiny, not matter how cool it might look. Plus, as a result of such feedback, we can’t do that for gen 2 legendaries.

tl;dr the OP simply said they don’t like that people can spend RL cash on the game to get stuff that it took the OP a while to acquire. That’s a valid opinion, regardless of whether that’s P2W or not.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

By definition it is:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

“Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.”

“better items then everyone else” – you can’t do that in GW2
“at a faster rate” – yes, but that is basically the only thing you can sell to “casual” players, “time”

“… makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying” – big no here, no amount of ingame money can make any player better than someone with actual skill. Best example Raids and Fractals.
And in PvP gems and money do not matter anyway.

Griffin.5379:

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

By definition it is:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

“Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.”

“better items then everyone else” – you can’t do that in GW2
“at a faster rate” – yes, but that is basically the only thing you can sell to “casual” players, “time”

“… makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying” – big no here, no amount of ingame money can make any player better than someone with actual skill. Best example Raids and Fractals.
And in PvP gems and money do not matter anyway.

good job my friend great way to analyse this entire argument !

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

GBEW.5947:

Jethro.9376:

Pay 2 Win is paying for an advantage over others.

What you describe is Pay 2 Progress faster.

Progressing faster is winning…

Is it, though?

Pay to Win implies that you buy something with real money that gives you an advantage in completing PvE game content, or competing in WvW or PvE.

We can argue forever on what “PvE game content” comprises, but to me, the PvE content is the story, it’s the dungeons, the fractals and the raids; the stuff that really matters. I don’t consider unlocking skins, whether fine, masterwork or legendary to be content as such; it’s a game feature.

If you required a legendary weapon to complete any of the story, dungeons, fractals or raids then your argument might have a basis. You also don’t need a legendary to “get good” in PvP or WvW.

The closest “pay to win” comes is using gems to buy gold in order to get Exotic gear…but by the time you reach L80 you’ve likely got enough money to buy / craft exotic gear, and probably enough laurels for the odd ascended trinket. On that basis who on earth would “P2W Exotic gear”? I really don’t buy the pay to win argument, sorry.

This thread is getting funnier and funnier. There is nothing in the game that if you spend real money on will give you an advantage over anyone else. Nothing. HoT is not pay to win, it’s an Xpac, every Xpac ever has given and “advantage” over people who do not. Be it level cap and better gear, easier ways to get currency, or items that can only be obtained in the Xpac. Now if the only way to get ascended gear and legendary weapons was to buy them from the cash shop for cash only, not with gems, then the game would be pay to win, and then these would have to effect PvP, or be needed to finish the game, like gate you from areas of the game, not be able to finish the story of the game etc.

Saying thing like bank space and trans charges are pay to win it just not true. You can gain charges by playing the game. Gain gold to trade for gems to buy bank space.

All the gem store if for is QoL. You do not need anything from there to play the game, sure some things make life easy, but not one thing there is a must have.

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

You wrote the game is “slightly” pay to win. I certainly agree with the slightly part. Although, it greatly depends on your personal view on what “winning” actually means in this game. Think we have seen that by all of the comments.

Progressing quicker than others doesn’t sound like much of a problem until you get to those able to buy everything (let’s say every single one of the old legendaries, multiple ascended sets as well as +9 (5 stat) infusions on everything) instantly with their money. Kind of silly to say you can’t buy yourself a quick ascended gear because you have to craft those. You can still buy all of the materials instantly.
I certainly consider the ultimate min-maxing of your gear in PvE a long-tern goal and therefor would call that winning.

Honestly, people are always a bit allergic to certain terms like “pay2win”, “grindfest”, “easy”, etc… Everyone has a different difinition of those. You can enjoy crafting gear or legendaries, you can enjoy doing everything yourself from gathering to crafting to polishing. People are free to enjoy anything they wish.
He was simply saying others can do it quicker and easier by spending money. Or more like others can keep up with you while spending much less time on the game.
An older audience means having players with much less free time time but much more disposable income to make up for that. That is why there is the gem-to-gold conversion. People would simply pay RTM companies for the gold instead.

It is still a very player friendly system. The advantage others gain over you with their money is not that crazy. You can easily achieve anything they can buy and yet they can NOT buy everything you can achieve.
To me, the true pay2win games allow you to gain a ridiculous advantage over other players in both PvE and PvE buy spending money over those not able to ever buy let’s say gems. There is no Premium system or any crazy boosters like in other games. I am talking about games with +20% damage/defense boosters in PvP, games with Premium systems that give you +10% increased stats or anything along those lines.
A true pay2win game means non-paying customers are nothing more than cannon fodder to those spending real money on it. They will never be anything other than that. It doesn’t even matter if they play and grind all day long.

Guild Wars 2 is far from being a game like that. You can simply decide to trade your hard earned money for time otherwise spend on grinding OR you can decide not to. You can freely enjoy grinding anything if it is content you enjoy.
Personally, I still love dungeons tours even if I could simply work a few extra hours at work and convert that money into gold. It would be a MUCH quicker way to make gold, sadly.
Why don’t I do it? Because I enjoy the content that I run. I enjoy playing with the people I play with. This applies to most of the people here it seems.

The game is slightly pay2win (just like all of the other MMOs out there).

HoT (or any expansion released years after main game release) is not p2w because it doesnt do what developers intend with p2w: continously exploit and prey on peoples addiction and competetive nature. It doesnt always apply to you but someone will always give in to the dark side.

There is nothing in GW2 that currently do this. Does GW2 vanilla make you wanna buy HoT? Sure it does. Still not p2w though.

Since I like imaginary examples, heres another scenario of what p2w would be:

Teleport to friend is now available in sPvP and WvW on a 1m cooldown.

Do you need that to play the GW2? No. No more than you need HoT. Thats how people argue " I can still play this game for free, its not p2w!". But good luck when sPvP teams start demanding you have it or when WvW guilds no longer allow members that doesnt have 50 of them in the backpack every night.

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

lmao kitten

GBEW is quite obviously a troll
That said, I’m bored, so I’ll play

If you want to see ‘pay to win’, get a game called Age of Wushu Dynasty for your phone. It’s F2P like GW2 is, also with a cash shop.

GW2 sells temporary boosters, toys, cosmetics and other generally silly items. GW2 has basically 2 tiers at endgame: Exotic and Ascended, and ascended is not so much more powerful than exotic that it will make any serious difference. In addition, ascended is not only relatively cheap to make (compared to some other MMOs I have played) but it’s handed out FOR FREE.

AoWD has dailies with free stuff, yes. The AoWD cash shop also sells items to upgrade gear, to obtain gear, to learn skills and to beat the snot out of anyone with less money than you. Does AoWD have cosmetic items? Yes. Does it allow you to literally pay money to beat other people with little effort? Yes.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t even read the OP because I have seen so many of these kinds of threads throughout the years it’s not worth my time, even when I’m bored. But if you want to whine, find something reasonable to whine about.

Also, stop scamming people

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

I presume that question was directed at GBEW and not me.

He believes that getting equipment is pay2win and that doesn’t make sense at all. Getting equipment isn’t winning despite his claims.