Guild Wars 2

Pifil.5193:

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

I presume that question was directed at GBEW and not me.

He believes that getting equipment is pay2win and that doesn’t make sense at all. Getting equipment isn’t winning despite his claims.

Yes, sorry, back from one of my forum bans, and forgot how this thing works. lol

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

lmao kitten

Is that really the only or best answer you can give me? You can’t think of a single MMORPG that’s not pay to win?

Because that’s the point.

Originally the P2W moniker was aimed to letting people determine games with legit cash shops from more mainstream games that were legit, cash shop or no. A game that was pay to win was a game you had to spend money in the cash shop, because if you didn’t there was content you wouldn’t be doing, not over a month or two, because they’d keep coming out with new tiers of gear, or new buffs you needed and that meant spending money on the cash shop. Repeatedly.

Every game I knew had expansions back then, including Guild Wars 1. Every expansion I can remember raised power somehow, and none of those games were ever called pay to win.

I’m asking you a single legit question. Which MMO today sells in an expansion that isn’t selling power and which of them are called pay to win.

If every single game is pay to win, how is the term useful and what does it help anyone do?

Where is the value of keeping the term at all, if it applies to all games?

If your definition of “pay to win” includes anything beyond “can pay real money for a stat advantage over others, thus giving those who pay the ability to win regardless of their skill level”, then your definition is a personal one based on an opinion and cannot be used in a rational discussion.

It is important that clearly defined phrases remain clearly defined. Attempting to misappropriate an unpleasant label that means one thing onto something else so that you can misapply the unpleasantness to the new thing is intellectually dishonest.

mtpelion.4562:

If your definition of “pay to win” includes anything beyond “can pay real money for a stat advantage over others, thus giving those who pay the ability to win regardless of their skill level”, then your definition is a personal one based on an opinion and cannot be used in a rational discussion.

It is important that clearly defined phrases remain clearly defined. Attempting to misappropriate an unpleasant label that means one thing onto something else so that you can misapply the unpleasantness to the new thing is intellectually dishonest.

problem is that is not what most definitions say. many include being able to buy top teir gear, regardless of weather its possible to earn in game. it is not, and has never been clearly defined in the way that you claim.

one of the most basic p2w methods has been to allow people to buy power others have to spend time grinding to achieve.

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

If your definition of “pay to win” includes anything beyond “can pay real money for a stat advantage over others, thus giving those who pay the ability to win regardless of their skill level”, then your definition is a personal one based on an opinion and cannot be used in a rational discussion.

It is important that clearly defined phrases remain clearly defined. Attempting to misappropriate an unpleasant label that means one thing onto something else so that you can misapply the unpleasantness to the new thing is intellectually dishonest.

problem is that is not what most definitions say. many include being able to buy top teir gear, regardless of weather its possible to earn in game. it is not, and has never been clearly defined in the way that you claim.

one of the most basic p2w methods has been to allow people to buy power others have to spend time grinding to achieve.

Pay to Win is a term that originated in games in which those who paid had a statistical advantage over those who did not.

That is the definition of the term. It is now being incorrectly applied to a variety of things that people don’t like because they want to piggy back on the negative connotation of the term’s definition in order to employ a guilt by association logical fallacy.

Allowing people to buy items that are available through other means would be an example of “Pay for Convenience”.

Pay to win is purchasing something that guarantee’s victory over another that does not purchase the same item.

By nature expansions are not Pay To Win. Players deciding not pay for an expansion are deciding to not utilize content available and are self limiting. Its the same as a player choosing not to play a class to learn how to best defeat a class. Also so far, having an expansion does not guarantee victory when pitting players versus players.

In either case, there are other outlying factors that make the question mote. There will never be a balanced playing field when you factor in all elements outside of the gamer. A faster connection will grant an edge, a stronger/faster PC will also grant an edge. These are factors that players decide upon based on their own life factors.

If people decide that speeding progression is P2W then that would make a player that decides to spend 8 hours in game versus another that does 2 paying to win since they are spending more of their own time to gain an advantage over another. Which is what MMO’s are at their core, time syncs.

So to me, no, so far GW2 is not Pay To Win. Good gaming!

The only thing that could be considered pay to win is the elite specs in sPvP and buying HoT but even that is more of a balancing issue than pay to win. Pretty much every game will have that at some point.

As for everything else …

It might have pay for consolation prize.
Maybe pay to be equal.
Pay to catch up?

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

If your definition of “pay to win” includes anything beyond “can pay real money for a stat advantage over others, thus giving those who pay the ability to win regardless of their skill level”, then your definition is a personal one based on an opinion and cannot be used in a rational discussion.

It is important that clearly defined phrases remain clearly defined. Attempting to misappropriate an unpleasant label that means one thing onto something else so that you can misapply the unpleasantness to the new thing is intellectually dishonest.

problem is that is not what most definitions say. many include being able to buy top teir gear, regardless of weather its possible to earn in game. it is not, and has never been clearly defined in the way that you claim.

one of the most basic p2w methods has been to allow people to buy power others have to spend time grinding to achieve.

Except gear in GW2 also doesn’t matter as much as in other games. At the beginning of HoT I played it with a warrior in masterwork gear as well as one in full ascended. The difficulty wasn’t even noticeably different. Compare this to another game I play(but you can’t buy anything with real money there) where the baseline damage for endgame is around 30k DPS without going too tanky or glass while the top end gear can get your to near immortality(there are still combinations of things that can wreck you if you aren’t paying enough attention) while dishing out over 1 million DPS

Technically speaking, yes I would label GW2 as pay to win, but on the scale of passable P2W to flat out imbalanced P2W, GW2, for me, falls into the very passable P2W.

You could buy your way to a legendary an ascended gear, but honestly, that doesn’t mean much vs other games were stat based armour plays a far more vital role in character dominance.

Although technically speaking, I don’t think there is an official defined definition of “pay to win”, what people define it as varies a little to a lot.

It’s a scary thought that kids these days don’t know what actual p2w is…

I mean, by today’s perceived definition, just buying the game is p2w and buying any expansions is p2w.

That means GW1 was p2w

Serophous.9085:

It’s a scary thought that kids these days don’t know what actual p2w is…

I mean, by today’s perceived definition, just buying the game is p2w and buying any expansions is p2w.

That means GW1 was p2w

Scary? I’d say it’s a good thing.

Like when people started to forget what the Nintendo Seal of Approval originally meant because we reached a point where you could reasonably expect all your games to work and to not be a poorly built rip-off of an existing game. (And now with mobile games and other poorly regulated markets it’s going back the other way.)

Sure there has been some shifting of benchmarks. Some people in this thread have said that for the game to not be pay-to-win free players need to be on equal footing with people who bought the game. That never even occurred to me, I think of free accounts as basically a trial version, not something that can (or should) be compared to the full version. But free to play games are more common now, especially online, so that’s becoming a new standard.

But hopefully the lack of familiarity with openly pay to win games also means we’re moving past the post-WoW days when many people seemed to think they could throw together an MMO, cram it full of things demanding cash from players, make a small fortune and then let it die when the poor design caught up to them. Developers are expected to at least be subtle about it, ideally to make money through producing things players actually like and want to pay for.

GBEW.5947:

Guild wars 2: where you can buy gold directly from the publisher and the fans will gut you for saying its paying to win. Lol.

At this point im juts gonna go ahead and say screw it, you’re wrong. It is 100% paying to win regardless of others opinions.

At this point, I’m just going to thank every single person that takes advantage of GW2’s ‘massive’ P2W opportunities so I can continue to play without paying a monthly fee.

GO WIN!!!

Obtena.7952:

GBEW.5947:

Guild wars 2: where you can buy gold directly from the publisher and the fans will gut you for saying its paying to win. Lol.

At this point im juts gonna go ahead and say screw it, you’re wrong. It is 100% paying to win regardless of others opinions.

At this point, I’m just going to thank every single person that takes advantage of GW2’s ‘massive’ P2W opportunities so I can continue to play without paying a monthly fee.

GO WIN!!!

you are correct here, ultimately this monetization plan works because non p2x people feel that its worth whatever annoyances or imbalances may occur, and p2x people feel that its worth it to get whatever advantages/special things real cash offers.

its far from the worst example, and probably one of the better monetization strats if you dont want to pay monthly.

monthly payments are being offered less and less though, because its less profitable, so this is how things will roll, until there is a paradigm shift.

here is how I figure it … Anet could probably push the P2W even harder, as long as it doesn’t offer advantages in the competitive part of the game (WvW or sPVP). Will they lose a few people because of P2W in Gstore? Probably, but what kind of people are they? Likely people that have issues with the Gstore in the first place and not purchasing gems. i.e., not the most desirable players.

They might even gain players. I mean, who wouldn’t purchase a level 80 booster as an example? That’s pretty close to P2W, but it’s completely transparent if I buy one and use it …

Obtena.7952:

here is how I figure it … Anet could probably push the P2W even harder, as long as it doesn’t offer advantages in the competitive part of the game (WvW or sPVP). Will they lose a few people because of P2W in Gstore? Probably, but what kind of people are they? Likely people that have issues with the Gstore in the first place and not purchasing gems. i.e., not the most desirable players.

They might even gain players. I mean, who wouldn’t purchase a level 80 booster as an example? That’s pretty close to P2W, but it’s completely transparent if I buy one and use it …

I have no problem with that considering they throw tomes of knowlage at you as candy and in time you get enough level 20-30 scrolls to save some of those tomes and level up quickly anyway.

Obtena.7952:

here is how I figure it … Anet could probably push the P2W even harder, as long as it doesn’t offer advantages in the competitive part of the game (WvW or sPVP). Will they lose a few people because of P2W in Gstore? Probably, but what kind of people are they? Likely people that have issues with the Gstore in the first place and not purchasing gems. i.e., not the most desirable players.

They might even gain players. I mean, who wouldn’t purchase a level 80 booster as an example? That’s pretty close to P2W, but it’s completely transparent if I buy one and use it …

i think the real point is it doesnt matter if its p2w, it only really matters how players feel about it.

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Every one has an opinion if you arnt considering Gw1 or Gw2 pay to win it is your own way of viewing it … it dosnt mean these are facts !
also i havnt said that this game is P2W
i just said i agree with some people that it is DEBATABLE !

Compared to F2P the expansion is slightly P2W it is debatable no matter what OPINION youll express
if you compare Reaper to Necro or Mesmer to Chrono there is a huge difference
but yea sure it dosnt mean you cant win a match but some F2P peeps feel the disadvantage and it should be addressed in my OPINION

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Every one has an opinion if you arnt considering Gw1 or Gw2 pay to win it is your own way of viewing it … it dosnt mean these are facts !
also i havnt said that this game is P2W
i just said i agree with some people that it is DEBATABLE !

Compared to F2P the expansion is slightly P2W it is debatable no matter what OPINION youll express
if you compare Reaper to Necro or Mesmer to Chrono there is a huge difference
but yea sure it dosnt mean you cant win a match but some F2P peeps feel the disadvantage and it should be addressed in my OPINION

Adding exclamation marks to your sentences doesn’t make them facts. Just saying.

We had a definition of pay to win back in the day that served a purpose. The purpose was to separate games that were legit from games that were simply ways to part you from your money. That definition came with all sorts of connotations. If you change the definition and the connotation doesn’t change, you’re giving people the wrong idea.

The original idea of pay to win was you can’t trust or play this game at all, because you need to keep throwing money at it to stay relevant. Again, maple story and runes of magic are examples of this. Legit triple A titles weren’t called pay to win because they were legit games, even though they came out with expansions that raised power and level cap. It just wasn’t how the term was used. This isn’t an opinion. It really wasn’t how the term was used.

All you can debate now, really is whether it’s fair to change the term you’re using in light of how bad the feelings are associated with that term. In my opinion, changing the definition of something with massively negative connotations creates confusion rather than clarity and muddies the waters. It allows less savory games to operate with impunity because if you’re calling all games pay to win, those other games get a free pass.

There are pay to win games. This isn’t one of them by the definition used years ago, and I do believe that’s fact. If people want to interpret the word literally and change the definition, in my opinion, they’re doing the entire genre a disservice.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Every one has an opinion if you arnt considering Gw1 or Gw2 pay to win it is your own way of viewing it … it dosnt mean these are facts !
also i havnt said that this game is P2W
i just said i agree with some people that it is DEBATABLE !

Compared to F2P the expansion is slightly P2W it is debatable no matter what OPINION youll express
if you compare Reaper to Necro or Mesmer to Chrono there is a huge difference
but yea sure it dosnt mean you cant win a match but some F2P peeps feel the disadvantage and it should be addressed in my OPINION

Why should it? They are on a trail account if they want everything all they need to do is buy the game same. as everyone else

Not even slightly if you see it from a certain pov.
Pay to get things faster like ascended gear yes.
Most ppl when entering this game, bother only to get shiny things like a legendary or create a bunch of chars just to got them all.
I do find myself in a situation like that but i end up thinking that this is only a bad spend habbit.
So if you like to grind and be happy, first focus to one char that will be your main, and then just focus to one target…to play the game and gear your char.

So for me at least no p2w here….just bad spend habbits only.
Ofc legendaries and other shiny things are achievable but first things first…

Sry for my bad english

this whole post is just a slander campaign that isnt working.

This is the same stubborn mentality that brings you ‘GW2 is the worst grind MMO’.

It’s plausible that I am being bias with my subjective take on things, but I am willing to gamble my previous experience with games that have had actual grinds or P2W aspects to them that I can safely say GW2 is doing an excellent job making them nearly non-existent or absolutely unnecessary.

Until this game offers an item that you can only get through the gem store with gems, that is an outright upgrade over any pre-existing item you can normally get through playing the game, it will not be P2W.

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

Sykper.6583:

This is the same stubborn mentality that brings you ‘GW2 is the worst grind MMO’.

It’s plausible that I am being bias with my subjective take on things, but I am willing to gamble my previous experience with games that have had actual grinds or P2W aspects to them that I can safely say GW2 is doing an excellent job making them nearly non-existent or absolutely unnecessary.

Until this game offers an item that you can only get through the gem store with gems, that is an outright upgrade over any pre-existing item you can normally get through playing the game, it will not be P2W.

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

the marketing guys who came up with that rebranding term to make you feel more comfortable with their microtransactions will be happy you feel that way.

the way mmos were, there was pay to play term first, which was subscription models, then they had f2p, which often users would call p2w, because for most of them, there were signifigant advantages for paying players. many of these did not offer unique item power boosts. large exp boosters, item drop rate boosters, top teir weapons and armor, movement speed boosts, thats what p2w was. most items were available in game, just a lot harder to get, like a 1.5% drop from a world boss, or items that let you upgrade gear safely.

people always bring up maplestory, but im pretty sure they have trading system that lets you sell items for cash shop money, which would by some of you guys standards, negate p2w claims

I don’t think GW2 is pay to win.

PvP is normalized.

Normal PvE isn’t competitive.

Raids can be done in Exotic though best done in Ascended.

Fractals give Ascended rewards.

WvWvW has some level of normalization. Exotic gear isn’t going to pale in comparison to Ascended in team fights.

Legendaries are just hard to get but not actually statistically better.

Some convenience items do grant slight advantages like infinite tools (which eliminates an aspect of resource management ) but none are integral to the PvP experience.

GBEW.5947:

However lately now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

If the only way to get a Legendary and ascended gear was by a credit card I would agree with you. But it’s not. It’s not like you need Gift of Visa or Gift of Mastercard to craft them. Ascended gear falls like everywhere and you can change the stats through the MF.

I have 3 legendaries and 2 full ascended characters (3 soon) and have never bought gems to exchange for gold; when I have bought gems it’s merely to buy gem store items, conversion is not profitable IMO since it’s too easy to make gold in this game.

BIS gear (if you can call it that) in this game has a very slight difference with regular gear and it’s generally cosmetic. My advice is to take a break from the game if crafting a Legendary is getting on your nerves, it’s supposed to be fun!

Vova.2640 As long as free users can get anything that paying users can get it is not pay to win at the slightest…

Well they cannot get anything the people who bought the game can get. Free to play is restricted on things. It is just a long trial version. Wanna buy the game fine wanna keep playin the game without buying it fine too. But what happens if someone buys the game. Hmmm? spend $50 -$100 for a game then play it all you want for free without restrictions. Get all the expansions included the more you pay the more gifts you can get. Like 4000 gems if you buy the $100 version. which cuts the price in half (more than likely you would of spent money on those gems anyway over time) this gives a good reason.

Anyway back to the subject of Pay to Win. The OP is right GW2 is pay to win We pay for the game and we Win!!!!!! We pay for gemstore items we like or think is cool or useful We Win!!!!!!!! Also buying gems then turning that into gold is not pay to win its business. Look at the exchange rate you would have to be either really rich or really stupid to over use that system.

Are people who want certain gem store items who use their in game gold to buy gems pay to win? Some people do pay for conveniences but that is not pay to win. Example Royal passes is a convenience item.

Go play that perfect globe (not the real name just replace globe with a similar word if you cant figure it out) mmo for a while you can download and play for free. But there is a catch that perfect game is a pay to win monster underneath the veil of being free. Play those king saga games you can keep playin those for free, but eventually you will buy help for them.

I never understood why people would ever say GW or GW2 are pay to play in any way. They are Buy to play games free to play without restrictions if you purchase the game for a reasonable price. Ok same price as a normal console Box, or console SP game would be. Oh and they charge you to connect to their network lol talk about a rip off.

One last thing actually a question of sorts WHAT DO YOU WIN IN AN MMO ANYWAY?

The reason this game is p2w is because the majority of end game can be bought. I hate spvp and play a bit of wvw. I can by a new account and first day be level 80 with full ascended armor and weapons and even legendary weapons. The only thing that would have to wait is jewelry and back piece and those would still be exotic. In many games you have to run raids or quest to get the best gear which can take time and much of it is bound. They created a system knowing that gems will be transferred into gold and everything will be bought from the TP. The TP is the same thing as having the items in the gem store it just takes an extra step to do it. By doing this, arenanet lets players think they control the prices. But the truth is, the prices on the TP are controlled by arenanet.

The thing is I do not have an issue with most of these practices. I do not mind arenanet being the gold seller so that the revenue goes to them rather than a shady third party. The problem most games that have real money auction houses/trading post is that the developers can not help but manipulate them to make more money. Which turns the game into a grind. Another issue that bad p2w games have is items like the watchwork mining pick. Items that can only be bought with gems that give exclusive in game bonus not accessible in game. Thankfully arenanet has not continued on that path.

So regardless of what anyone says or what their opinion of P2W is. My and many others opinion is that this game is p2w. It isn’t world of tanks bad but it is still there. As long as they stay away from the real bad practices of p2w I think gw2 will continue for a long time.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

The reason this game is p2w is because the majority of end game can be bought. I hate spvp and play a bit of wvw. I can by a new account and first day be level 80 with full ascended armor and weapons and even legendary weapons. The only thing that would have to wait is jewelry and back piece and those would still be exotic. In many games you have to run raids or quest to get the best gear which can take time and much of it is bound. They created a system knowing that gems will be transferred into gold and everything will be bought from the TP. The TP is the same thing as having the items in the gem store it just takes an extra step to do it. By doing this, arenanet lets players think they control the prices. But the truth is, the prices on the TP are controlled by arenanet.

The thing is I do not have an issue with most of these practices. I do not mind arenanet being the gold seller so that the revenue goes to them rather than a shady third party. The problem most games that have real money auction houses/trading post is that the developers can not help but manipulate them to make more money. Which turns the game into a grind. Another issue that bad p2w games have is items like the watchwork mining pick. Items that can only be bought with gems that give exclusive in game bonus not accessible in game. Thankfully arenanet has not continued on that path.

So regardless of what anyone says or what their opinion of P2W is. My and many others opinion is that this game is p2w. It isn’t world of tanks bad but it is still there. As long as they stay away from the real bad practices of p2w I think gw2 will continue for a long time.

So by buying a new account paying a couple hundred of dollar to max out crafting and craft ascended/legendary.

What do you win exactly?
To me, you just killed any reason to play said game.

Linken.6345:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

The reason this game is p2w is because the majority of end game can be bought. I hate spvp and play a bit of wvw. I can by a new account and first day be level 80 with full ascended armor and weapons and even legendary weapons. The only thing that would have to wait is jewelry and back piece and those would still be exotic. In many games you have to run raids or quest to get the best gear which can take time and much of it is bound. They created a system knowing that gems will be transferred into gold and everything will be bought from the TP. The TP is the same thing as having the items in the gem store it just takes an extra step to do it. By doing this, arenanet lets players think they control the prices. But the truth is, the prices on the TP are controlled by arenanet.

The thing is I do not have an issue with most of these practices. I do not mind arenanet being the gold seller so that the revenue goes to them rather than a shady third party. The problem most games that have real money auction houses/trading post is that the developers can not help but manipulate them to make more money. Which turns the game into a grind. Another issue that bad p2w games have is items like the watchwork mining pick. Items that can only be bought with gems that give exclusive in game bonus not accessible in game. Thankfully arenanet has not continued on that path.

So regardless of what anyone says or what their opinion of P2W is. My and many others opinion is that this game is p2w. It isn’t world of tanks bad but it is still there. As long as they stay away from the real bad practices of p2w I think gw2 will continue for a long time.

So by buying a new account paying a couple hundred of dollar to max out crafting and craft ascended/legendary.

What do you win exactly?
To me, you just killed any reason to play said game.

many people enjoy playing at max stats, the same reason people hack, bought game genie, and buy accounts.

basically you win by achieving all endgame goals easily.
may seem pointless to me, but many people prefer to buy these type of things, than to play/grind/wait for them.

this does diminish the percieved value of some goals, but its increasingly common

The “Pay to Win” idea only make sense when applied to competitive situations. I really don’t think obtaining ascended items counts as a competition, so no, GW2 does not features Pay to Win (UNLESS you take the imbalance between Elite Specs v/s vanilla professions as and unfair advantage).

I really don’t think there is enough reason to call GW2 p2w. Sure you can buy legendary weapons with gold and there are some elements definitely there, but there is nothing really going on that makes a noticeable difference.

What I do think is that GW2 is too gold-centric, but that’s an entirely different topic.

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

That’s a very simplistic mindset and tries to use the letter of the term against the spirit of the term.

Lots of games offer funds as an alternative to advancement for lots of reasons – many are that crazy “Pay2Play” setup where there’s a limited number of plays you get a day and if you want to play more you have to buy a currency that grants you time (insane IMHO). Many still (like GW2) offer exclusive items that don’t give advantages in return for purchased currency.

Here’s the thing though. When people complain about “pay2win”, it’s usually for a combination of the following:

1) Grind is so mind-numbingly bad at higher levels that you are pretty much required to buy items, or else you grind for hundreds and hundreds (or more) of hours to get the items.
2) natural advancement in the game is nerfed so that if you don’t buy upgrades, it becomes almost impossible to succeed at the game, or requires perfect execution
3) the currency needed for 1 or 2, is ONLY purchasable. You can’t earn it in significant quantity in-game.

Now, GW2 has none of those traits:

1) You get 2g/day now just for doing dailies. That’s 700g for about 15 minutes of gameplay/day for a year. That’s a huge part of the ascended cost right there. On top of that, calling gw2 “grindy” for anything short of legendaries (which are not increased stats) is either disingenuous or without due consideration for the systems in other MMOs.
2) Ascended is only a small increase from exotic. You can easily perform in all other game modes than fractals without ascended gear. But most importantly:
3) It’s gold – you get it for playing. And if you want gems, you can convert gold for them – and here’s the thing, lots of people do – the gems2gold exchange is filled with player gold. You’re basically trading gems to players in return for their earned gold (and anet takes a cut to bleed funds from the economy). At no point are you required to buy gems to advance, and – here’s the other kicker – all gemstore items can be purchased by exchanging in-game currency (gold) for gems, so you are never required to purchase gems, even for gemstore items.

So, sure, if you want to call any game anywhere with in-game purchases “Pay2win”, well, you are welcome to. But, as Inigo Montoya says: “You keep using that word – I do not think it means what you think it means..”

GBEW.5947:

In the past few days i have had quite a few arguments with people about this topic, now i could sit here and just force my beliefs down your throat but i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

When i first bought this game i was kind of shocked that i was able to buy gold with gems, it screams p2w. I ended up looking past it as Guild Wars 2 has been a game i was looking forward to playing since the first game, i just ended up getting into it a bit late.
Anyways as i said, i ended up looking past this and just played and for the most part i ignored the gem store. However lately now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

Anyways i probably seem like i am rambling so i’ll finish by asking what you all think of this.

It is indeed slightly P2W, but not for the reasons you describe.

You need to buy HoT to run the current meta on most classes, if not all. This was of course by design, as Anet needed to provide incentive to purchase the expansion beyond new maps, new skins, etc.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

The reason this game is p2w is because the majority of end game can be bought.

It can?

Pray tell me how I can use the gemstore to buy champion trains in PvE, 50,000 achievement points, sPvP ranks, fractal ranks and WvW ranks.

Gear isnt endgame in GW2. Its never been.

The game itself is endgame and no amount of gems will play the game for you.

phys.7689:

many people enjoy playing at max stats, the same reason people hack, bought game genie, and buy accounts.

basically you win by achieving all endgame goals easily.
may seem pointless to me, but many people prefer to buy these type of things, than to play/grind/wait for them.

this does diminish the percieved value of some goals, but its increasingly common

Game genies and hacks also makes it possible to do the impossible like walking through walls and having infinite everything … that is very different from having max stats.

phys.7689:

Sykper.6583:

This is the same stubborn mentality that brings you ‘GW2 is the worst grind MMO’.

It’s plausible that I am being bias with my subjective take on things, but I am willing to gamble my previous experience with games that have had actual grinds or P2W aspects to them that I can safely say GW2 is doing an excellent job making them nearly non-existent or absolutely unnecessary.

Until this game offers an item that you can only get through the gem store with gems, that is an outright upgrade over any pre-existing item you can normally get through playing the game, it will not be P2W.

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

the marketing guys who came up with that rebranding term to make you feel more comfortable with their microtransactions will be happy you feel that way.

the way mmos were, there was pay to play term first, which was subscription models, then they had f2p, which often users would call p2w, because for most of them, there were signifigant advantages for paying players. many of these did not offer unique item power boosts. large exp boosters, item drop rate boosters, top teir weapons and armor, movement speed boosts, thats what p2w was. most items were available in game, just a lot harder to get, like a 1.5% drop from a world boss, or items that let you upgrade gear safely.

people always bring up maplestory, but im pretty sure they have trading system that lets you sell items for cash shop money, which would by some of you guys standards, negate p2w claims

Well I’m not one of them. I’m not going out on a limb when I say that expansions were simply not considered pay to win even though they raised the power in almost every game. Why?

Because people expected to pay for expansions and if they were going to continue with the game, they were going to buy the expansion.

Simply put, Guild Wars 1 came out with expansions with new professions and new skills. You couldn’t use those professions or skills, unless you bought those games/expansions. Furthermore, the one true expansion Guild Wars 1 came out with, Eye of the North, included some of the most powerful PvE skills in the entire game, which you could only attain by buying the expansion, and you could only level up through grinding, much like masteries.

But people weren’t saying Guild Wars 1 was pay to win, because even though it was buy to play, people expected to buy expansions to continue with the game.

The advent of free to play games, made it so that people didn’t expect to pay for expansions anymore, but that’s not really what buy to play means.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

It is indeed slightly P2W, but not for the reasons you describe.

You need to buy HoT to run the current meta on most classes, if not all. This was of course by design, as Anet needed to provide incentive to purchase the expansion beyond new maps, new skins, etc.

To win the meta maybe, not the game. You can certainly play without having to play the meta config in anything but what, raids? Which are HoT anyway?

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

orenwolf.1953:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

It is indeed slightly P2W, but not for the reasons you describe.

You need to buy HoT to run the current meta on most classes, if not all. This was of course by design, as Anet needed to provide incentive to purchase the expansion beyond new maps, new skins, etc.

To win the meta maybe, not the game. You can certainly play without having to play the meta config in anything but what, raids? Which are HoT anyway?

That’s a little disingenuous, Orenwolf.

You need meta builds to play at the highest level in any game mode, be it PvE, WvW, or PvP. Playing anything less than the meta results in fewer rewards over time. It also results in salt from teammates who only want other meta players on their team.

Yes you can play non-meta builds in any game mode. That is, in fact, what I do. And I own HoT. But it’s a joke to suggest that the playing field is level when going up against (or playing along side) HoT builds that dish out more damage, soak more damage, have more defensive procs, etc.

Skill and experience can overcome this handicap only to a certain extent.

Again, the game is P2W just a little, not a lot. The OP is right, just for the wrong reasons.

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

No it aint winning.
Since one buy hot, use the 80 boost and then got luck drop of a precursor it would be the same thing.

I wish the game would be more pay to win. I would gladly spend thousands per month if it would give me advantages.
all the cosmetic stuff is rarely of interest to me

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

Oh it do but in a positive way you finish your fractals, dungeons, raids, world bosses and open world events faster.
Since they got the highest stat weapon in the game helping you.

Linken.6345:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

Oh it do but in a positive way you finish your fractals, dungeons, raids, world bosses and open world events faster.
Since they got the highest stat weapon in the game helping you.

Oh yeah, I guess this is true also. That new player having that better weapon is helping vets, not hindering them…though I suspect a single legendary without trinkets and armor isn’t going to make much of a difference anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

it has an effect, its just that you dont care that much. many people actually require ascended for pugs, having ascended in wvw makes you stronger. having ascended will make you more likely to get credit per kills in open world trains.

people who say ascended has no effect a mathematically inaccurate.

fact is, a dude who is willing to pay can shortcut to equality with veterans, whereas, someome not willing to pay will spend 5-6 weeks catching up.

how long it takes is only a matter of degree.

you could literally grind long enough in maplestory to be top teir, by trading for cash shop money. my guess is it would take way longer than gw2, but thats a matter of degree.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

it has an effect, its just that you dont care that much. many people actually require ascended for pugs, having ascended in wvw makes you stronger. having ascended will make you more likely to get credit per kills in open world trains.

people who say ascended has no effect a mathematically inaccurate.

fact is, a dude who is willing to pay can shortcut to equality with veterans, whereas, someome not willing to pay will spend 5-6 weeks catching up.

how long it takes is only a matter of degree.

you could literally grind long enough in maplestory to be top teir, by trading for cash shop money. my guess is it would take way longer than gw2, but thats a matter of degree.

But how does that really affect you. What someone else is doing.

Simply put WvW is PvP, and it should be more normalized. What’s the difference if a new person coming in can catch up? Why is that a bad thing? Don’t WvW players want people on their TEAM that are up to date.

Doesn’t it work the same for both teams.

WvW is not a 1 on 1 endeavor. SPvP is normalized. So what’s the difference if someone has an ascended weapon or an exotic. Even if it makes them more powerful it’s not relevant, because most people in WvW already have those weapons. You’re talking like it’s a bad thing that someone can jump into WvW and participate.

But they still are less powerful, because no matter how much money they spend, then can’t buy trinkets. And trinkets give you the biggest boost.

A single weapon or even two legendary weapons won’t make a bit of difference if the person they’re fighting has ascended trinkets.

This is just arguing to argue.

GBEW.5947:

Anyways i probably seem like i am rambling so i’ll finish by asking what you all think of this.

I’m curious what you guys think the OP’s name stands for. I googled it and found “Girls Brigade England and Wales.” Thinking that’s not it.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

here is how I figure it … Anet could probably push the P2W even harder, as long as it doesn’t offer advantages in the competitive part of the game (WvW or sPVP). Will they lose a few people because of P2W in Gstore? Probably, but what kind of people are they? Likely people that have issues with the Gstore in the first place and not purchasing gems. i.e., not the most desirable players.

They might even gain players. I mean, who wouldn’t purchase a level 80 booster as an example? That’s pretty close to P2W, but it’s completely transparent if I buy one and use it …

i think the real point is it doesnt matter if its p2w, it only really matters how players feel about it.

I don’t think that matters as much as we think … If decisions were based on how players feel, this game wouldn’t exist. Players have a wide range of ‘feel’ for many things. There would never be a decision made that every player would feel good about. There isn’t even a good way to gauge that.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

orenwolf.1953:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

It is indeed slightly P2W, but not for the reasons you describe.

You need to buy HoT to run the current meta on most classes, if not all. This was of course by design, as Anet needed to provide incentive to purchase the expansion beyond new maps, new skins, etc.

To win the meta maybe, not the game. You can certainly play without having to play the meta config in anything but what, raids? Which are HoT anyway?

That’s a little disingenuous, Orenwolf.

You need meta builds to play at the highest level in any game mode, be it PvE, WvW, or PvP. Playing anything less than the meta results in fewer rewards over time. It also results in salt from teammates who only want other meta players on their team.

Yes you can play non-meta builds in any game mode. That is, in fact, what I do. And I own HoT. But it’s a joke to suggest that the playing field is level when going up against (or playing along side) HoT builds that dish out more damage, soak more damage, have more defensive procs, etc.

Skill and experience can overcome this handicap only to a certain extent.

Again, the game is P2W just a little, not a lot. The OP is right, just for the wrong reasons.

Still not P2W.

You are talking about paying for the game, more specifically HoT, the only version available today aside GW2 free trial. Thats B2P.

P2W by any definition assumes repeating running costs next to a F2P/B2P mode in order to always keep those paying a little above the rest. Thats why expansions are not P2W, thats why singleplayer games are not P2W, thats why most multiplayer game are not P2W. GW2 may have both later things, but there are no running costs that make players above the rest. A single expansion in 4 years is not enough, especially not when we assume what a new player buying HoT get vs someone that’s played HoT for 8 months and paid for 1800 gems every month. The 8 months of experience is great – the 1800 gems a month give them… guess what…. an 8 months advantage in time played. Every month that pass after this even with one still shelling out for gems make no difference, its just time played.

If you do not make that distinction, even by a little – which you dont – then pretty much every game is P2W. Witcher 3? P2W, it got expansions! Battlefield 4? P2W, it got so much DLC! Total War Warhammer? Pre-order bonus included another faction, you better believe thats P2W! World Of Warcraft? So totally P2W.

If you want to see real P2W, play most Korean MMOs. GW2 is certainly not P2W.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

it has an effect, its just that you dont care that much. many people actually require ascended for pugs, having ascended in wvw makes you stronger. having ascended will make you more likely to get credit per kills in open world trains.

people who say ascended has no effect a mathematically inaccurate.

fact is, a dude who is willing to pay can shortcut to equality with veterans, whereas, someome not willing to pay will spend 5-6 weeks catching up.

how long it takes is only a matter of degree.

you could literally grind long enough in maplestory to be top teir, by trading for cash shop money. my guess is it would take way longer than gw2, but thats a matter of degree.

But how does that really affect you. What someone else is doing.

Simply put WvW is PvP, and it should be more normalized. What’s the difference if a new person coming in can catch up? Why is that a bad thing? Don’t WvW players want people on their TEAM that are up to date.

Doesn’t it work the same for both teams.

WvW is not a 1 on 1 endeavor. SPvP is normalized. So what’s the difference if someone has an ascended weapon or an exotic. Even if it makes them more powerful it’s not relevant, because most people in WvW already have those weapons. You’re talking like it’s a bad thing that someone can jump into WvW and participate.

But they still are less powerful, because no matter how much money they spend, then can’t buy trinkets. And trinkets give you the biggest boost.

A single weapon or even two legendary weapons won’t make a bit of difference if the person they’re fighting has ascended trinkets.

This is just arguing to argue.

its an MMO, its actually about a shared world, and shared values. What other people do, and value is actually supposed to have an effect on you.

I can understand you saying that it doesnt bother you, but it isnt unreasonable for some one to say their enjoyment in an mmo is effected by others.

also, the stuff you are talking about in response is describing why you feel those issues are not a big deal, basically your defense is, its not that drastic, but the entire point of this thread is that it has p2w elements, although they are slight.

doesnt sound like you really disagree, you just think the word p2w is so heinous, it should only be mentioned in extreme cases.

i look it like this, the game is definately easier, and has a lot less grind, if you are willing to buy gold, thats objectively true.
The bigger question is how players feel about it, most dont mind it, at its current levels.
however, as the gap in expected power, and benefits of max gear change, people will begin to feel it more,

because the p2w is already built into the game, its just currently at an acceptable level for most players.