"This is a skill-based game"
Skill in GW2 combat is primarily timing. You time when to dodge, when to use defensive buffs, when to heal, when to use offensive buffs, when to reposition, etc. The rest is knowing which attacks or utility skills to use when. Timing the invulnerability frames can require both a good computer, good connection and good twitch reflexes. Since you can increase your twitch reflexes to some degree (i.e., you can get better at it with practice), this does constitute the development of skill.
Skilled play is, unfortunately, not required in some of the activities the game provides. Thus, the negative comments about herd play and overuse of #1 skill. It’s also unfortunate that most of the reward carrots provided in the game steer players towards herd play. This is a side effect of wanting large numbers of players to do content in the open world simultaneously.
What’s the point in even trying to dodge in the middle of a zerg, assuming you can even see the telegraph with all the sparkly effect that invades the screen, reducing the fps to like one frame per minute?
Indeed. I don’t experience the FPS issues as much, but the particle blur is my number one peeve with the game. Herd/zerg play devolves down to evade if you can, and hope for a revive if you can’t — although mostly I use positioning and knowledge of the mobs to avoid damage, even though most aren’t.
Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, herd play does not for the most part require any skill — no matter if you’re talking about player skill or skills on the hot bar.
This is skilled combat
12345 – F2 – 12345 – F3 -12345 – F4 – 12345 – F1 – 12345
Mix in a few dodge rolls and utility skills and there you have it.
Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do are the notes used in every song but still we have millions of different songs
Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, herd play does not for the most part require any skill — no matter if you’re talking about player skill or skills on the hot bar.
And that’s quite true… Sadly, herd play represent the vast majority of GW2 “endgame”.
Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, herd play does not for the most part require any skill — no matter if you’re talking about player skill or skills on the hot bar.
And that’s quite true… Sadly, herd play represent the vast majority of GW2 “endgame”.
It depends on what you see the endgame as. If you want your endgame as content which gives the most loot, yes: champ trains all the way.
When the game gets difficult, it does give some of the most difficult content I’ve played in MMOs, and I’ve played since RuneScape classic was around. I don;t think I’ve ever watched PUGs fail harder than in Arah or around lvl 20-ish FotM (where it gets hard but the difficulty filter hasn’t really kicked in yet).
Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, herd play does not for the most part require any skill — no matter if you’re talking about player skill or skills on the hot bar.
And that’s quite true… Sadly, herd play represent the vast majority of GW2 “endgame”.
It depends on what you see the endgame as. If you want your endgame as content which gives the most loot, yes: champ trains all the way.
When the game gets difficult, it does give some of the most difficult content I’ve played in MMOs, and I’ve played since RuneScape classic was around. I don;t think I’ve ever watched PUGs fail harder than in Arah or around lvl 20-ish FotM (where it gets hard but the difficulty filter hasn’t really kicked in yet).
That happens because most of the content you can auto attack and tab out so players will be conditioned and use to easy fights.
Can someone break that statement down and explain what it means and how gw2 compares with non skill-based games
It means there’s no gear threadmill, it’s easy to get on Exotic gear (that barely makes a difference from ascended).
So if someone just bought the game in a month or so can easily beat someone that has been playing since day 1 and loves to stand around showing a legendary.
Victoria Cross [VC] – Desolation [EU]
can’t actually believe people think there are skills in this game lol :P it’s faceroll, you don’t even have to know what you are doing in a dungeon and you can still complete it easly. OR… OR.. maybe… people confuse skill (like in how good you are) with skills (in like abilities of your class), hmmmmm, wow, mind blown,, i had to dig so deep in to my brain to figure out how n00bs think, it’s like, they are living outside ‘the box’. Mind blown… really..
So what you’re saying is that you’ve never died, and that every dungeon run you did you did first time?
What he is saying is that 90% of this game’s content and it’s mechanics could be done by a monkey in a straight jacket.
There is no need for build organisation between players, or group co-ordination in dungeons.
Anyone, running anything can come and steam roll it.
Jump in to a zerg to do absolutely ANYTHING on the map.
Buy everything you need with gold.
The only exception to anything that requires thought and team work is sPvP, Fractals, Some WvW and maybe Arah.
This post sums it up the best. High Level Fractals, WvW sometimes, and Arah are the only really challenging things in the game. None of those modes really compare to the difficult found in raids in some other games.
Can someone break that statement down and explain what it means and how gw2 compares with non skill-based games
Success is primarily decided by the actions you perform more than the gear you have.
I.e. if you beat someone in PvP, it’s because you outplay them and not because you mindlessly grinded out more powerful gear. If you clear the dungeon, it’s because you outplayed the enemies with a coordinated group and not because you have epic gear to 1-shot everything. (small exception for Fractals)
The caveat is that profession choice can make more of a difference than gear in certain cases, but that’s inevitable in any game that has multiple professions.
Can someone break that statement down and explain what it means and how gw2 compares with non skill-based games
Success is primarily decided by the actions you perform more than the gear you have.
I.e. if you beat someone in PvP, it’s because you outplay them and not because you mindlessly grinded out more powerful gear. If you clear the dungeon, it’s because you outplayed the enemies with a coordinated group and not because you have epic gear to 1-shot everything. (small exception for Fractals)
The caveat is that profession choice can make more of a difference than gear in certain cases, but that’s inevitable in any game that has multiple professions.
I think this post best answers the original question. Almost everything else in the thread appears to be criticism of the difficulty of PvE, which wasn’t what the OP asked.
(There were some on-topic posts here and there, but they were the minority.)
“It is the stupidest children who are the most childish
and the stupidest grown-ups who are the most grown-up.”
- C. S. Lewis
and the stupidest grown-ups who are the most grown-up.”
- C. S. Lewis
Most classes requires skill for you to master that class. Aside from sarcasm, even in PvE, a skillful player in that environment would be someone using berserker gear and survives longer than a tanky class/build. A case in point would be in higher difficulty dungeons like Arah, high level fractals, and TA aetherblade path.
Survivability depends on timing and precision, such traits are indicative of skill. It’s a skill-based game because skill determines how good you do in this game. There are various difficulties like mindlessly activities as Queensdale trains to roaming in WvW to tPvP organized fights with other teams, and etc. Just because there are easier difficulty activities in this game does not indicate the game takes no skill.
A game that’s not skill-based would mean regardless of skill, two players of varying skill would have the same outcome. A PvE example would be, both players can survive Arah runs equally well despite having two different skill levels. That is obviously not the case in guild wars 2.
SBI – Thief and the occasional Guardian & Warrior.
Its just a word used by insignificant people for an ego boost.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
I’d say calling GW2 a skill based game is a bit of an exaggeration. It’s the sequel to a skill based game, with all those icky skill requiring parts dumbed down or removed to increase it’s popularity with the WoW crowd. Oh, and they added dodging, jumping and swimming. You know, the necessary stuff.
All morons hate it when you call them a moron. – J. D. Salinger
I think ‘skill-based’ is a misnomer.
Every game is ‘skill-based’. They just require different skills.
eh… actually… when someone refers to a “skill-based game” they are referring to one of two different things.
A. They are referring to a game whose game play takes actual strategy and thought in how it is played. For example Magic the Gathering, Poker, or heck, even Chess (though at high levels of play I hear that Chess is more choreographed than it is actually about skill due to the limited number of moves available in that game).
B. They could also be referring to a game whose game play is largely determined by a system where in each mechanic is governed by a skill that over time can be increased in some way. For example, some of the more recent Final Fantasy games utilize this system. Their most recent MMO actually turns the crafting skills into actual classes (as in D&D Classes) that are more in depth than any crafting skill normally has any right to be.
Point is, the way most people play Guild Wars 2, it cannot really be considered either of the above.
How GW2 differentiates from it:
You press the button, Skill starts casting. If it’s not canceled/interrupted, skill goes off, and IF it actually hits the target, it deals damage. There is no hit/miss calculation, it’s based if you actually hit or not.
Melee skills works the same way. You press the button, skill goes off. If it hits the enemy area, it deals damage.
If there is no Hit or Miss chance or calculation in GW2, would you care to explain to me why I saw a Minotaur (NPC-enemy) completely fail to hit it’s target with a Charge Attack when it was standing right next to the target who happened to be an NPC herself, and thus could not have dodged? In fact I have seen NPC’s miss their targets on such attacks numerous times. If what you say is true, then there shouldn’t be any chance for them to miss their targets AT ALL unless the target is player controlled and able to dodge.
XIII | JAH | FNG | LWA
Ranger 80 | Elementalist 30 | Guardian 29 | Necromancer 21
Ranger 80 | Elementalist 30 | Guardian 29 | Necromancer 21
(edited by An Siorai Tharian.4516)
Whiners aside. It means there is no uber gear advantage ingame, it’s not the sword you hold, but how you use it. Sucess depends on your build and proper and timely use of the right skills, which requires knowing the enemy, the skills, and other things to watch out for.
While gear matters as far as giving stats, nobody gets unfair advantage of having “+20 cash shop sword of imminent doom”. They gotta play better then you, since they can’t wield bigger sword then you.
I think ‘skill-based’ is a misnomer.
Every game is ‘skill-based’. They just require different skills.
eh… actually… when someone refers to a “skill-based game” they are referring to one of two different things.
A. They are referring to a game whose game play takes actual strategy and thought in how it is played. For example Magic the Gathering, Poker, or heck, even Chess (though at high levels of play I hear that Chess is more choreographed than it is actually about skill due to the limited number of moves available in that game).
B. They could also be referring to a game whose game play is largely determined by a system where in each mechanic is governed by a skill that over time can be increased in some way. For example, some of the more recent Final Fantasy games utilize this system. Their most recent MMO actually turns the crafting skills into actual classes (as in D&D Classes) that are more in depth than any crafting skill normally has any right to be.
Point is, the way most people play Guild Wars 2, it cannot really be considered either of the above.
snip
If there is no Hit or Miss chance or calculation in GW2, would you care to explain to me why I saw a Minotaur (NPC-enemy) completely fail to hit it’s target with a Charge Attack when it was standing right next to the target who happened to be an NPC herself, and thus could not have dodged? In fact I have seen NPC’s miss their targets on such attacks numerous times. If what you say is true, then there shouldn’t be any chance for them to miss their targets AT ALL unless the target is player controlled and able to dodge.
Blind. There is no hit-miss chance calculation. There are evades, blinds, etc. but there’s no hit/miss calculation, you can still make monsters miss by cleverly sidestepping them and other movements such as circling, this isn’t a huge factor contributing to the skill factor however.
What I find more disturbing is you only listing 2 types of skill and neither is including execution based skills. Having good reflexes and hotkeys can result in a higher APM (actions per minute) and better situational awareness. Both of which matters far more in GW2 then many other games. GW2’s game mechanics hugely influence this. If you’re casting a churning earth and I blind, stun, daze, fear, teleport, dodge, evade, block or simply move out of range I can outplay you. And in turn I can get outplayed through cc’s, teleports or being caught unaware. GW2 has a lot of ways to outplay your opponent, far more than other MMO’s out there. I personally find it extremely disappointing how little GW2 players are actually aware of this and how little these mechanics seem to matter in PvE and WvW. You can simply be better than your opponent by gap closing through the use of dodge jumping and intelligent cast cancelling, how is this not a beautiful example of execution based skills?
These game mechanics are the sole reason I can enjoy GW2 as much as I do and the strongest USP next to GW2’s art & design.
This game isn’t just about strategies, awareness, teen reflexes or buildwars, it’s all of them, and forgoing or excelling in any of these fields will affect your personal effectiveness.
(edited by Jelger.6758)
There’s dodging and more build variety than many other MMOs.
Flixx Gatebuster, Orwynn Lightgrave, Seras Snapdragon
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
There’s dodging and more build variety than many other MMOs.
Are you trolling?
Blind. There is no hit-miss chance calculation. There are evades, blinds, etc. but there’s no hit/miss calculation, you can still make monsters miss by cleverly sidestepping them and other movements such as circling, this isn’t a huge factor contributing to the skill factor however.
Except a level 10 Warrior… and an NPC at that… has no capability to dodge, sidestep, or do any of that other stuff that you listed in your post. So your entire point is moot. Try again.
There’s dodging and more build variety than many other MMOs.
I am sorry, but ABSOLUTELY NOT. The only thing of what you just said that is true is the dodging bit. This game is actually rather limited in relation to build variety. Take Guild Wars 1 for example (that still counts as an MMO, right?), where you had an entire freaking wikipedia site devoted to build diversity
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t come anywhere close to that.
XIII | JAH | FNG | LWA
Ranger 80 | Elementalist 30 | Guardian 29 | Necromancer 21
Ranger 80 | Elementalist 30 | Guardian 29 | Necromancer 21
(edited by An Siorai Tharian.4516)
Blind. There is no hit-miss chance calculation. There are evades, blinds, etc. but there’s no hit/miss calculation, you can still make monsters miss by cleverly sidestepping them and other movements such as circling, this isn’t a huge factor contributing to the skill factor however.
Except a level 10 Warrior… and an NPC at that… has no capability to dodge, sidestep, or do any of that other stuff that you listed in your post. So your entire point is moot. Try again.
There’s dodging and more build variety than many other MMOs.
I am sorry, but ABSOLUTELY NOT. The only thing of what you just said that is true is the dodging bit. This game is actually rather limited in relation to build variety. Take Guild Wars 1 for example (that still counts as an MMO, right?), where you had an entire freaking wikipedia site devoted to build diversity
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t come anywhere close to that.
Bug or glitch or some other known unknown or unknown unknown, isn’t the first one and won’t be the last in GW2.
There is no hit or miss calculation in GW2, besides what is found here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage
GW1 was not massively multiplayer.
Blind. There is no hit-miss chance calculation. There are evades, blinds, etc. but there’s no hit/miss calculation, you can still make monsters miss by cleverly sidestepping them and other movements such as circling, this isn’t a huge factor contributing to the skill factor however.
Except a level 10 Warrior… and an NPC at that… has no capability to dodge, sidestep, or do any of that other stuff that you listed in your post. So your entire point is moot. Try again.
Npc’s are able to dodge and sidestep, most npc’s don’t dodge and sidestepping isn’t done afaik as a tactic to avoid anything. Npc movement isn’t very reactive or intelligent. But we’re talking about the system right? Hit/miss calculations aren’t programmed anywhere as far as I know, and the collision system obviously is. It doesn’t matter if it’s an invisible wall, a blind or a silly pebble that caused the attack to not go through but it’s even more likely that npc’kitten each other for 0 damage then that npc’s have hidden stats (hit chance and/or evade ratings) and do these (fairly pointless) calculations.
There’s dodging and more build variety than many other MMOs.
I am sorry, but ABSOLUTELY NOT. The only thing of what you just said that is true is the dodging bit. This game is actually rather limited in relation to build variety. Take Guild Wars 1 for example (that still counts as an MMO, right?), where you had an entire freaking wikipedia site devoted to build diversity
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t come anywhere close to that.
While I won’t argue that there’s games that are able to create more different builds GW2 really isn’t anything to laugh about in respect to build variety, and I’d argue does in fact have more build variety than many other MMO’s. I still wouldn’t say that’s it’s really GW2’s selling point, which was obviously the case in GW1. GW2’s main problem where builds are concerned is in the viability, or rather the comparability of these builds. A thief can run every weapon combination and specialize in different ways to do damage or focus on different ways of survival. Yet some ways are far more effective than others and therefore the amount of build diversity that is commonly used ingame is fairly low. There’s quite a few MMO’s that really don’t have more than 3/4 theoretical builds available of which only 1 or 2 ever sees practical application at any time. One can also look at the variety of roles that can be covered by a specific class which is another common way to diversify in games.
And as a final note…. GW2 may not have a wikipedia page devoted to builds, but the amount of build calculators and repository’s is still incredibly large compared to other MMO franchises.
I stand by my statement; GW2 has more build variety than many other MMOs. I never said it was better than GW. I hate the classic trees that WoW and SWTOR have, forcing you to choose your class and then not be able to truly tailor your build beyond the most obvious choices within the single tree. Every Enhancement Shaman is exactly alike.
GW2’s traits offer a more build variety even within the same basic framework. Rifle/SD Engineers can all be built in a variety of ways, each having different traits and utilities that make each fight unpredictable. Yes, they’re generally glassy and bursty. But one may have sacrificed Rifle Turret for Rocket Boots for an escape, while another sacrifices burst damage for more control. All this variety, within the same build framework.
Flixx Gatebuster, Orwynn Lightgrave, Seras Snapdragon
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
I think some of the arguments in this thread are really reductionist. Reductionist to the point I would have to wonder why some of those people making those arguments are still playing the game or getting on these forums. The truth of the matter is that they don’t really believe those arguments and that makes those reductionist arguments invalid. There are many places in this game where you can’t just auto attack. Let’s not sell the game short.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
I think some of the arguments in this thread are really reductionist. Reductionist to the point I would have to wonder why some of those people making those arguments are still playing the game or getting on these forums. The truth of the matter is that they don’t really believe those arguments and that makes those reductionist arguments invalid. There are many places in this game where you can’t just auto attack. Let’s not sell the game short.
While it’s true that there are places where you can’t simply auto-attack, that doesn’t diminish the fact that CC isn’t all that useful against specific enemy ranks and passive defense via stats aren’t helpful at all due to scaling.
That’s why berserker’s gear, might stacking, and all melee stacking is viewed as the only way to go for some players: sheer damage efficiency since dead enemies = no damage and dead players = more frustration and time spent on rezzing.
As for defiant, how many pug teams can effectively remove 8 stacks of defiant in a timely manner so they can CC again? Don’t forget some CC skills on some classes take over 30 seconds (untraited) to cooldown.
As for toughness/healing power scaling, it’s not really helpful. With 3k armor, you reduce about 39% damage (taken from http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/ ).
As for healing power, we all know that it scales badly. It’s no problem that Anet wants to eliminate the healer role, but imo, adding any stat that improves healing goes against the whole concept.
No, I’m not selling the game short, but I believe there is alot of room for improvement and it’s been about 17 months since release with no announcement or addressing of these issues. I also believe much of the negativity stems from the lack of news on any improvements to the combat mechanics.