Guild Wars 2

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

But with a relative degree of seriousness, I’d like to put forward the argument that the issue dividing the community – vertical gear progression through the Ascended mechanic and what will almost certainly follow – is something that divides the world on a larger scale.

Quite simply, it’s a conflict between an egalitarian viewpoint (everyone should have an equal chance for enjoyment) and that of an elitist viewpoint (only certain people should benefit under circumstances I dictate, generally those favourable to me).

This is an argument repeated time and time again, in almost every area of endeavour.

You have the bleeding heart libruls on one hand, who apparently want the world to spiral into a socialist nightmare by forcing hard working folks to sacrifice, so that the less worthy can be on an equal footing.

Then you have the fascist conservatives, whose ‘I got mine and I ain’t got use for you unless it’s cleaning my pool’ worldview is rapidly destroying the planet and winding us back to the dark ages of repression that have imprisoned humanity for most of its history.

On a slightly more serious note, I do wonder if these arguments – if not necessarily dictating a condition of total adherence – do see an online/offline correlation.

If you’re someone who in real life believes that only those who work hard should be rewarded, is that a view you will transpose onto a game and vice versa?

If you believe that everyone deserves an equal chance and should be supported in order to reach their potential, do you apply that to both online and offline activities?

I’d be curious to hear from people who are strongly progressive or conservative in real life but reverse their position in an online game.

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

The game mechanics are what supports or encourage or even enforce ‘human nature’.

It’s also a game and not real life. People rarely play games to mimic real life and rarely do real life ‘politics’ and ‘attitudes’ actually apply to a computer game.
‘Work hard’ in a computer game is quite a strange idea. However it springs from a time where this players and developers of genre didn’t know better and didn’t have the technical abilities to make it better.

The game shapes the community.

Xandax.1753:

The game mechanics are what supports or encourage or even enforce ‘human nature’.

It’s also a game and not real life. People rarely play games to mimic real life and rarely do real life ‘politics’ and ‘attitudes’ actually apply to a computer game.
‘Work hard’ in a computer game is quite a strange idea. However it springs from a time where this players and developers of genre didn’t know better and didn’t have the technical abilities to make it better.

The game shapes the community.

I’d argue a lot of people’s values in games mimic those in real life and as a result the community shapes the game as well – at least the perceived community, or the community chosen by the publisher as the key demographic.

Leaving real life aside for a second, that’s clearly happening with GW2 at the moment. A very large number of people are unhappy with the game based on Values – not performance issues or bugs, but value-based problems with the structure of the game.

So my questioning is whether this strong values-based perception is something that people keep utterly disconnected from the real world.

I recall the many articles when GW2 was first launching about the amazing community spirit arising from the fact the game both supported and encouraged co-operative activity, a basic change in gaming value structure from ‘traditional’ models.

I think what we are seeing here is the same principles at work, just from another (opposite?) direction – an exclusive value set as opposed to an inclusive value set.

I think that people are more angry about the fact that the devs stated on numerous occasions that there would be no gear grind. This is like your teaching giving you a surprise final exam half way through the course.

It is about human nature and social behaviors . . . what this has turned into is another excuse to employ being selective and trying to say it’s necessary. This isn’t the only instance of it, this didn’t just pop up overnight, we just got a new reason to point to and go “because of this”.

This happened in the previous Guild Wars game, as much as people want to shout that it’s different now. It happened in this game before Ascended ever was an inkling in the players’ eyes.

I don’t know how to describe myself politically, but here’s the thing. I think if you want something nice, it takes effort proportional to the object you want. This isn’t about making money to afford it (it could be, but could not). If you want to have a great little garden to sit in then you have to put the effort in (OR barter with someone to put the effort in) . . . it just doesn’t happen. If you want to read a book, you have to read the book (in the case of some, you probably will need to go back and read it again). If you want a piece of artwork to admire, then it requires someone to make it. If you want to own a car that gets 50 mpg (miles per gallon) then you need to put the work in to find it. (Note: I am not sure if such a car exists, I totally just made up a number there.)

If you want to produce or have something, work must be done in order to have it happen. Objects do not just spontaneously generate, free of charge. In the case where you deal with another person, they will most times expect something in return. Even if it is intangible, such as “your friendship” or “your good will”.

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because that´s what they are for, fun.

Games are entertainment, they´re made to give us enjoyment….if they turn fun in to cheap skinners box, they´ve failed.

I love when people take the approach of exclusion that proceeds with I am only playing this game for fun; but then expect the remaining community to be inclusive with one’s own position.
The fact is , you cannot use that approach, because not everyone adheres to your premise. While you feel that a game is an activity different from life, others may view their avatar as an extension of their character , unrestricted. Noone enjoys the friend who says lets play football together, but then does not give it any modicum of effort to, for lack of a better word, play… even though he agreed to join in the game. Ever thought about it that way?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It is about human nature and social behaviors . . . what this has turned into is another excuse to employ being selective and trying to say it’s necessary. This isn’t the only instance of it, this didn’t just pop up overnight, we just got a new reason to point to and go “because of this”.

This happened in the previous Guild Wars game, as much as people want to shout that it’s different now. It happened in this game before Ascended ever was an inkling in the players’ eyes.

I don’t know how to describe myself politically, but here’s the thing. I think if you want something nice, it takes effort proportional to the object you want. This isn’t about making money to afford it (it could be, but could not). If you want to have a great little garden to sit in then you have to put the effort in (OR barter with someone to put the effort in) . . . it just doesn’t happen. If you want to read a book, you have to read the book (in the case of some, you probably will need to go back and read it again). If you want a piece of artwork to admire, then it requires someone to make it. If you want to own a car that gets 50 mpg (miles per gallon) then you need to put the work in to find it. (Note: I am not sure if such a car exists, I totally just made up a number there.)

If you want to produce or have something, work must be done in order to have it happen. Objects do not just spontaneously generate, free of charge. In the case where you deal with another person, they will most times expect something in return. Even if it is intangible, such as “your friendship” or “your good will”.

I don’t think this is strictly true, though I accept that many people believe it is.

I think ‘good things’ are very much a state of mind and as such don’t necessarily require ‘work’ to achieve.

If your value set says a massive house, big screen TV and a bucket of icecream is the height of achievement, then yes, you will probably need to work a lot in order to gain the money to purchase these things.

If your value set gives you as much pleasure from sitting quietly under a tree watching some birds fly by, then no, hard work isn’t required in the same way.

On a base line philosophical level your argument is sound but once you start upscaling I think there is a lot of room for consideration on both sides of the fence.

Kazzuki.5704:

I love when people take the approach of exclusion that proceeds with I am only playing this game for fun; but then expect the remaining community to be inclusive with one’s own position.
The fact is , you cannot use that approach, because not everyone adheres to your premise. While you feel that a game is an activity different from life, others may view their avatar as an extension of their character , unrestricted. Noone enjoys the friend who says lets play football together, but then does not give it any modicum of effort to, for lack of a better word, play… even though he agreed to join in the game. Ever thought about it that way?

Why does that make a difference?

Does your view that ‘effort’ or ‘skill’ make your desire to play more valid than his?

Why is that?

Well, there’s the thing . . . I don’t just receive pleasure from those things consumerism can get me. I won’t deny they’re pretty fun and I definitely enjoy having spent money on games. (Not just this one.)

On the other hand, I enjoyed learning how to cook a risotto. I enjoyed checking out a renaissance faire. I enjoyed going to visit friends one year for Thanksgiving and basking in their camaraderie. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the appearance of a cleaned and straightened house, along with the smell of fresh laundry. I enjoyed going camping growing up, and earning the right to do so without my parents supervising me.

All of these things require effort, even if it’s not on my part. None of it is “free”.

Edit: Actually, to explain why I say that, the thing about sitting under the tree? I have a tree in my backyard, but I also live in a part of the US where there exist an abomination known as “fire ants”. I could go out there at random and sit under the tree and look at the sky . . . but I would rather go out there after I spread ant killer pellets so I don’t come in with bite sores on my back and legs.

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

I didn’t buy a game to work. I bought a game to play. That’s why there’s two separate words for ‘work’ and ‘play.’

MMOs are the third place. A place away from work and home where we go to spend limited excess resources (disposable income) in return for socialising and pleasurable leisure time. From an entirely personal perspective the best example of a third place is the archetypal London or country local pub. As an Englishman living in the USA it’s finally struck me how egalitarian us Brits are.

The pub is THE social gathering place. The only requirement for membership is being convenient traveling distance away and once you cross the threshold everyone is equal – it doesn’t matter if you’re about to order three bottles of the finest champagne or a couple of local brews – old or young – whatever – it’s first come, first served mate. And don’t expect some underpaid teenager to wait on you; no matter if you’re a Lord, CEO, office worker, teacher or bus driver – you’ll carry those drinks back to the table yourself, just like everyone else.

The kittenstorm on the forum comes from this IMO. They ripped down that nice comfy pub with the comforting fire and crazy drunk in the corner and replaced it with a sterile wine bar where some knuckle-dragging goon gets to check your shoes before you’re allowed to enter.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

He probably means “not a native speaker of English”?

sorry that post is in reply to strang’ post on , games are for fun.

And the obvious answer of no, your view on effort and skill does not make your desire to play more valid than his; however his agreement to join the game, should act as a binding act of honor to participate 100% , anything less should be approached individually and have no avenue to voice criticisms on topics pertaining to game participation, all else is free speech.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, there’s the thing . . . I don’t just receive pleasure from those things consumerism can get me. I won’t deny they’re pretty fun and I definitely enjoy having spent money on games. (Not just this one.)

On the other hand, I enjoyed learning how to cook a risotto. I enjoyed checking out a renaissance faire. I enjoyed going to visit friends one year for Thanksgiving and basking in their camaraderie. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the appearance of a cleaned and straightened house, along with the smell of fresh laundry. I enjoyed going camping growing up, and earning the right to do so without my parents supervising me.

All of these things require effort, even if it’s not on my part. None of it is “free”.

Edit: Actually, to explain why I say that, the thing about sitting under the tree? I have a tree in my backyard, but I also live in a part of the US where there exist an abomination known as “fire ants”. I could go out there at random and sit under the tree and look at the sky . . . but I would rather go out there after I spread ant killer pellets so I don’t come in with bite sores on my back and legs.

Nice ants comment

You’ve named a handful of things that you enjoy. But there are probably millions of moments in your life just as enjoyable that bring pleasure without requiring ‘work’ (note that it’s not ‘work’ if you enjoy it).

My point is that from quite a few philosophical standpoints, the ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ is a pretty dubious notion. It’s part of the Protestant work ethic mythology that has been heavily propagandised into American ideology, as well as a few other nations.

I fully accept that many people believe it to be a fundamental aspect of reality, in the same way I fully accept many people believe a deity of their choice is a fundamental aspect of reality.

I don’t accept that people believing it makes it a fact, far from it.

So what I am getting at with this thread is whether people who have that rather extreme ideological view – ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ – apply it equally to virtual environments or not and if not, why?

Kazzuki.5704:

however his agreement to join the game, should act as a binding act of honor to participate 100% , anything less should be approached individually and have no avenue to voice criticisms on topics pertaining to game participation, all else is free speech.

Why?

Did God say that and I missed it?

Are there tablets or engraved wooden bowls that spell this out as a fundamental truth of reality?

Jokes aside, what I am getting at is what you are saying is simply an opinion on how things should work, albeit an opinion you hold very strongly.

Do you apply that strength of opinion equally to online environments or do the rules change? And if so, what causes that change?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

He probably means “not a native speaker of English”?

I mean foreign as in ‘Americans often get really, really angry when they can’t tell that I am taking the mickey’

GJ op, i like how you painted the far left and far right =P. I think in the end, people are just trying to pursue “fun” as cliche as it sounds. Different ppl have fun in different ways. Some like to feel the sense of superiority over their peers (termed crudely as stroking the electronic pen), some like to pretend to be a fantasy character in a fantasy world (RPers), some like to go around exploring the beautiful scenery, and some like to buy as much CLOTHES as possible (me)… I think the one aspect of human nature in play here is that no one likes to feel inferior regardless of their playstyle. If the game is actively putting in mechanics that can be used by people to label others as inferior, there will be unhappy campers all over (of course it boosts the fun of the stroking population though ).

I think the bigger issue at the moment is the feeling of injustice that some feel at being ‘conned’ (in quotes since not everyone agrees) by the ‘promises’ made by Anet about adhering to certain core values. No one likes the feeling of being tricked/duped/lied to.

cegorach.5624:

Nice ants comment

You’ve named a handful of things that you enjoy. But there are probably millions of moments in your life just as enjoyable that bring pleasure without requiring ‘work’ (note that it’s not ‘work’ if you enjoy it).

My point is that from quite a few philosophical standpoints, the ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ is a pretty dubious notion. It’s part of the Protestant work ethic mythology that has been heavily propagandised into American ideology, as well as a few other nations.

I fully accept that many people believe it to be a fundamental aspect of reality, in the same way I fully accept many people believe a deity of their choice is a fundamental aspect of reality.

I don’t accept that people believing it makes it a fact, far from it.

So what I am getting at with this thread is whether people who have that rather extreme ideological view – ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ – apply it equally to virtual environments or not and if not, why?

I can concede that my being raised in America probably contributed a lot to my work ethic and my world view. I also agree my belief does not make it a fact. However, the laws of science do disagree – everything must be created out of something. Laws of conservation of mass and energy. I’m not a physicist, and I only did 4 years of college but I at least remember that.

I also believe you can love your work. Just because it pays the bills doesn’t mean you have to despise it, or at best tolerate it.

cegorach.5624:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

He probably means “not a native speaker of English”?

I mean foreign as in ‘Americans often get really, really angry when they can’t tell that I am taking the mickey’

Indeed. Make no mistake that British wit, ubiquitous to natives of the UK, goes about 50/50 in the US, where 50% think you’re a prolific source of razor sharp one-liners and the other 50% think you’re an irritating, condescending twat.

Edit: Yay! I got a word through the profanity filter. Infraction incoming…
WTH, I might as well earn two. Bollocks.

havellian.4073:

If the game is actively putting in mechanics that can be used by people to label others as inferior, there will be unhappy campers all over (of course it boosts the fun of the stroking population though ).

So it’s not really ‘unhappy campers all over’ is it?

Some folks ‘got theirs’ and are quite happy with that.

I’m curious if they would act the same way in real life.

Strang.8170:

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because that´s what they are for, fun.

Games are entertainment, they´re made to give us enjoyment….if they turn fun in to cheap skinners box, they´ve failed.

I think you missed the point. He’s not saying why should games be fun, hes saying why should life not be fun.

The majority of people dont believe in hard work for reward, they are just forced in to that situation and social programmed to spout out the party line, and because if they have to suffer working hard so should everyone else.

How many of those same people would continue to work 48 hours a week in a minimum wage job if they won the lottery? All of a sudden, now they dont need to , the philosophy of working hard goes out the window.

Americans have it pretty bad with this stupid ‘hard work’ philosphy and work the longest hours of any country in the world. Yet their productivity is decreasing. Countries in Europe having been limiting working hours (france is down to 35 a week) and have seen productivity increasing. – not to mention minimum standards of paid time off. Equaly, quality of life is seen as much higher in Europe than in the US.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

cegorach.5624:

Nice ants comment

You’ve named a handful of things that you enjoy. But there are probably millions of moments in your life just as enjoyable that bring pleasure without requiring ‘work’ (note that it’s not ‘work’ if you enjoy it).

My point is that from quite a few philosophical standpoints, the ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ is a pretty dubious notion. It’s part of the Protestant work ethic mythology that has been heavily propagandised into American ideology, as well as a few other nations.

I fully accept that many people believe it to be a fundamental aspect of reality, in the same way I fully accept many people believe a deity of their choice is a fundamental aspect of reality.

I don’t accept that people believing it makes it a fact, far from it.

So what I am getting at with this thread is whether people who have that rather extreme ideological view – ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ – apply it equally to virtual environments or not and if not, why?

I can concede that my being raised in America probably contributed a lot to my work ethic and my world view. I also agree my belief does not make it a fact. However, the laws of science do disagree – everything must be created out of something. Laws of conservation of mass and energy. I’m not a physicist, and I only did 4 years of college but I at least remember that.

I also believe you can love your work. Just because it pays the bills doesn’t mean you have to despise it, or at best tolerate it.

If you love what you are doing, I’d say that’s not ‘work’

At least in terms of what is being discussed here.

And as someone who knows some world class physicists, there’s plenty of arguments saying that it is not necessarily the case that everything must be created out of something!

Haha , i love that you are equally harsh on your views as you are on others, yet playfully so, very fun stuff.

But you have identified something clearly yes, it is indeed an opinion on how things should work, nothing more, and also advocated throughout the online environments.

However it has to be noted that i also believe that character which balances narcissism and yet allows a contradicting approach that values the opposing believes, is near impossible to replicate into a setting (the online game) that intuitively instructs the player, at least so far in time.

Simply put, i made in a choice in real life as to what my character should be, and approach the game in that same belief, setting myself as an example, however the argument should be made more about why does the setting not encourage the bridging of human natures , and further yet, not even steadfastly head down either path of human natures as per OP’s post. Your mystery is but a paradox criticism into the the creators lack of creativity which you already ascertained but still play the jokers card to laugh at them while singing a fencers tune , or perhaps a whisper for awareness.

. . . I can’t debate on that level, I can only cite what I learned in my college courses and what is generally accepted by the scientific community. “Energy cannot be gained without some Work applied.” If I could remember the equations, I’d cite them, but I don’t so I shan’t.

I think your definition of “work” and mine don’t entirely mesh. That is troublesome.

On a topic tangential but not exactly related . . . have you heard of dorodango? Fascinating art style, taking nothing but dirt, water, and effort and turning it into something rather strikingly beautiful.

Edit: why didn’t this quote . . . this was to cegorach.

Faze.6948:

cegorach.5624:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

He probably means “not a native speaker of English”?

I mean foreign as in ‘Americans often get really, really angry when they can’t tell that I am taking the mickey’

Indeed. Make no mistake that British wit, ubiquitous to natives of the UK, goes about 50/50 in the US, where 50% think you’re a prolific source of razor sharp one-liners and the other 50% think you’re an irritating, condescending twat.

.

Yeah but that last 50% think that nascar is cool.

cegorach.5624:

So it’s not really ‘unhappy campers all over’ is it?

Some folks ‘got theirs’ and are quite happy with that.

I’m curious if they would act the same way in real life.

Well there are both unhappy campers (just look at these boards) and folks that ‘got theirs’ and are content. Having both these groups are not mutually exclusive and can (believe it or not) co-exist… refer to RL. As for the words “all over” it could mean the vast majority, the fact that this group is wide-spread or just distributed evenly, but come on now, we are just getting into semantics then and I don’t think that’s where we want to go

this discussion makes me want to ask if you were playing with a special friend some one thru not fault of their own they were just off and in need of extra help on almost everything that they are undeserving of any reward or of any need to participate and to go a little bit farther they put way more effert in to trying for that reward then you but you deserve it more or a bigger reward why?

cegorach.5624:

And as someone who knows some world class physicists, there’s plenty of arguments saying that it is not necessarily the case that everything must be created out of something!

That’s funny because everything I’ve read says you can’t make something out of nothing. Matter → Energy, Energy → Matter. Einstein and Newton seemed to agree on this point.

There may be some confusion at the quantum foam level, but that’s because it’s really hard to see that small. Personally I think that the unknowns in quantum foam are caused those multiple wrapped dimensions of string theory, which by very definition can’t be detected in a 4D world. Whereas the membranes model in string theory explains a possible multiverse and the odd behaviour of gravity when compared to the other fundamental forces.

Is string theory still ‘trendy’ or am I behind?

Kazzuki.5704:

I love when people take the approach of exclusion that proceeds with I am only playing this game for fun; but then expect the remaining community to be inclusive with one’s own position.
The fact is , you cannot use that approach, because not everyone adheres to your premise. While you feel that a game is an activity different from life, others may view their avatar as an extension of their character , unrestricted. Noone enjoys the friend who says lets play football together, but then does not give it any modicum of effort to, for lack of a better word, play… even though he agreed to join in the game. Ever thought about it that way?

Is your job perhaps playing the game? Does somenone use it as a punishment for you?
It´s a form of entertainment, you play it to be entertained. What you get your entertainment out of is up to you.
My point is that this is not real life, it´s not extension of real life either. It´s completely separate thing. Therefore it´s justifiable to want to easy fun, even if in real world you necessarily wouldn´t.
Please stop using my words to raise completely different arguments than what they were used to reply to.

This is a game, it is for the sparetime fun. (Yes fun is relative). Not a job. I don’t think the gearprogression in itself is the problem (as such). But that it seems to contradict what Anet said they would do prerelease. If Anet had not said those things, people would not complain… or less people would complain.
Saying it has to be there to make a good MMO? I do not believe that. I myself do not have much of an opinion on the matter (I am the uncritical fan that gets “Anet can never do anything wrong” or quickly forgets I was against something in the first place once it is there). I think those that complain have a point, but they are… some of them are… a bit aggressive about it, which is not really constructive. I hope in the future Anet will keep to not making gear better and better and harder and harder to get. Skins is all the motivation needed. In GW1 (yes I know GW1 was a Co-Operative Online Game, and not really an MMO and a different game to GW2) getting those rare skins… even those that were not really not that nice, just rare, was something people wanted to work for, wanted to pay for. They were not better. A max damage weapon was max damage no matter if it had the most common boring and cheap skin in all of Tyria or the rarest of them all. Don’t underestimate the value of vanity items.

I think getting max stat gear should be reasonably easy to get for everyone. I think certain skins should be very hard to get. I think that everywhere should be accessable regardless of profession. The last thing here is a more of a player thing… because some people seem to have convinced themselves and others that certain professions are needed to succeed with a team… guess what… it doesn’t really matter.

Saidor.7028:

Strang.8170:

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because that´s what they are for, fun.

Games are entertainment, they´re made to give us enjoyment….if they turn fun in to cheap skinners box, they´ve failed.

I think you missed the point. He’s not saying why should games be fun, hes saying why should life not be fun.

The majority of people dont believe in hard work for reward, they are just forced in to that situation and social programmed to spout out the party line, and because if they have to suffer working hard so should everyone else.

How many of those same people would continue to work 48 hours a week in a minimum wage job if they won the lottery? All of a sudden, now they dont need to , the philosophy of working hard goes out the window.

Americans have it pretty bad with this stupid ‘hard work’ philosphy and work the longest hours of any country in the world. Yet their productivity is decreasing. Countries in Europe having been limiting working hours (france is down to 35 a week) and have seen productivity increasing. – not to mention minimum standards of paid time off. Equaly, quality of life is seen as much higher in Europe than in the US.

Ah, shouldn´t read things this early int he morning :/

Hmm you completely missed the point didnt you strang. Simply put , in an odd agreement, your style of play should be respected, but so should someone who approaches the game as a hobby/esport/real life. Eschewing either is in itself a form of prejudice which unfortunately is the basis of your point towards what the OP is posting , which some of us readers find it hard to digest.

is not human nature you are generalizing too much, believe me.

Saidor.7028:

Strang.8170:

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because that´s what they are for, fun.

Games are entertainment, they´re made to give us enjoyment….if they turn fun in to cheap skinners box, they´ve failed.

I think you missed the point. He’s not saying why should games be fun, hes saying why should life not be fun.

The majority of people dont believe in hard work for reward, they are just forced in to that situation and social programmed to spout out the party line, and because if they have to suffer working hard so should everyone else.

How many of those same people would continue to work 48 hours a week in a minimum wage job if they won the lottery? All of a sudden, now they dont need to , the philosophy of working hard goes out the window.

Americans have it pretty bad with this stupid ‘hard work’ philosphy and work the longest hours of any country in the world. Yet their productivity is decreasing. Countries in Europe having been limiting working hours (france is down to 35 a week) and have seen productivity increasing. – not to mention minimum standards of paid time off. Equaly, quality of life is seen as much higher in Europe than in the US.

I . . . probably would still find something to do if I won the lottery. More than likely I would not be at a minimum wage job I would detest, but I would try for something to keep be busy. Something like working usher duty for an opera house or theatre. Or perhaps invest some money and start a small business cooking for individual orders. Or maybe I’d work on a camera persona and do Let’s Plays for the entertainment.

It might be cultural programming, or it could be a personal issue. I’m not completely sure.

i dont think this is about gear i think its more about accessiblity of that gear …. several friends and i like to level toons we have 4/5 80s should the next piece of highend gear only be given to people who have 4/5 80s on their account after all we put in the work we grinded the level to have them would that be fair to someone that only has one and only likes that one toon and one class …. no …. its not the gear its the accessiblilty

Kazzuki.5704:

Hmm you completely missed the point didnt you strang. Simply put , in an odd agreement, your style of play should be respected, but so should someone who approaches the game as a hobby/esport/real life. Eschewing either is in itself a form of prejudice which unfortunately is the basis of your point towards what the OP is posting , which some of us readers find it hard to digest.

I said nothig like that.

As i said before, what i was trying to get through is that games are a form of entertainment, therefore it´s perfectly valid to expect to have easy fun in a game while not necessarily in real life.

You took my wording, games are for fun, thought it meant something differen than what i later clarified, and keep arguing about that when what i said has nothing to do with it.

cegorach.5624:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, there’s the thing . . . I don’t just receive pleasure from those things consumerism can get me. I won’t deny they’re pretty fun and I definitely enjoy having spent money on games. (Not just this one.)

On the other hand, I enjoyed learning how to cook a risotto. I enjoyed checking out a renaissance faire. I enjoyed going to visit friends one year for Thanksgiving and basking in their camaraderie. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the appearance of a cleaned and straightened house, along with the smell of fresh laundry. I enjoyed going camping growing up, and earning the right to do so without my parents supervising me.

All of these things require effort, even if it’s not on my part. None of it is “free”.

Edit: Actually, to explain why I say that, the thing about sitting under the tree? I have a tree in my backyard, but I also live in a part of the US where there exist an abomination known as “fire ants”. I could go out there at random and sit under the tree and look at the sky . . . but I would rather go out there after I spread ant killer pellets so I don’t come in with bite sores on my back and legs.

Nice ants comment

You’ve named a handful of things that you enjoy. But there are probably millions of moments in your life just as enjoyable that bring pleasure without requiring ‘work’ (note that it’s not ‘work’ if you enjoy it).

*My point is that from quite a few philosophical standpoints, the ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ is a pretty dubious notion. It’s part of the Protestant work ethic mythology that has been heavily propagandised into American ideology, as well as a few other nations.

I fully accept that many people believe it to be a fundamental aspect of reality, in the same way I fully accept many people believe a deity of their choice is a fundamental aspect of reality.

I don’t accept that people believing it makes it a fact, far from it.*

So what I am getting at with this thread is whether people who have that rather extreme ideological view – ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ – apply it equally to virtual environments or not and if not, why?

I understand what you are saying and I have wondered this myself. My husband and I have discussed this many times.
How it relates to games, I think depends on many things: how the avatar is perceived by the player, the nature of the particular game and also the player’s real world views to some extent.
I think our society has a very hard time freeing themselves of the “nothing comes of nothing” mentality.
People who identify strongly with their in game characters, or invest a lot of time in a game, want to see them grow in one way or another. That is fun to them and it may even take effort, but it is not work.
Some players say that they don’t want to create a second job in a game and yet that is exactly what they end up doing, while other are content to just float around and smell the roses.
How all this may correlate to players real world views, I have no idea. It is an interesting subject.
I just realized I contributed nothing to it

Kazzuki.5704:

I love when people take the approach of exclusion that proceeds with I am only playing this game for fun; but then expect the remaining community to be inclusive with one’s own position.

Ecclusion is the grinders position – they specifically want all the others to be denied easy access to the best gear. Their whole playing style is based upon being “better than others”.
Me, i don’t care if they grind or not. I just want the easy access for the top tier eq for myself.

Let me put it that way: the elitists say, that the casuals can ignore Fractals and ascended eq and continue to play as before. Now, if a vendor appeared that offered all casuals ascended eq for cheap, wouldn’t an argument “just ignore the vendor, if you think you should work hard for your gear” be equally valid?

Will you not accept the simple fact that views are different when you look at said “game” If we establish a base criteria for game definition ," yours would most likely be an activity with rules played to have fun". Mine would be ," An fun activity with rules" .

And i think with that, we can approach topic two ," you generalize players to identify that the game is purely recreational" . I dont . But heres the kicker, your approach to the rebuttal is based on your definition of “game” and mine is of mine. I implicated your definition as biased, you told me i lack the comprehension of what you were initially saying. Here we are now. The discussion , you may view games to be build based purely on entertainment, i believe that it is the user who dictates what it should be viewed upon ; and unfortunately both topics are straying from the OP’s discussion so i would like to end it here and focus on the human nature similarities of game design philosophy and how its rippling cause and effects.

Morrigan.2809:

How all this may correlate to players real world views, I have no idea. It is an interesting subject.
I just realized I contributed nothing to it

It’s okay, this subject is less an argument over who’s right and just talking it out. Over a beverage of your choice in the corner of a college campus.

In both game and real life, I am an egalitarian.

In game, egalitarian means all players should have a chance to get the best stuff regardless of what aspects of the game they play, since the only entitlement worth kitten is that gained by paying for the game. I don’t buy the line that, “playing harder content entitles you to better stuff.” I don’t care if the best stuff is hard to get in terms of resources gained, effort and time, but it should not be gated into one form of content.

In real life, egalitarian for me does not mean entitled, it means that I should have the same opportunity to work my kitten off as anyone else regardless of race, etc. RL and game are different in that regard, since if doing what I like is not worth as much to others as doing what I hate, then I will make less money. In game, the only “others” who can determine the worth of what I choose to do are the developers, certainly not other players. The money I paid for the game is worth no more, but certainly no less, than anyone else’s.

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because it’s entertainment, not a job, lol. I don’t think we mind investing time into something that we actually enjoy, versus the accursed dungeon grinds.

Astralporing.1957:

Now, if a vendor appeared that offered all casuals ascended eq for cheap, wouldn’t an argument “just ignore the vendor, if you think you should work hard for your gear” be equally valid?

Yes. Yes it is valid, because it’s a self-imposed challenge.

I think astral just raised an interesting point that I would like to dovetail into this -

some people want to be ‘better than others’.

I often see a correlation between the ‘some people are better than others’ and the ‘elitist’ viewpoint as opposed to the ‘no matter what, all people are equal’ and an ‘egalitarian viewpoint’ in terms of how ‘work’ is rewarded.

Both have starkly different views of what constitutes a work/reward system and both tend to skew it in terms of what suits their own position best.

I wonder if this is the same for video games?

@astralporing ,

That is ultimately true. But this is exactly why the arguments on the forums are so rampant, as ultimately every individual has their own style of approach to the game. It is the worth of a game to stick by its rules , once changed, then everything from player approach must change. And precisely because it is so tough to change ones character , is why the forums are at wars…

IndigoSundown.5419:

In both game and real life, I am an egalitarian.

In game, egalitarian means all players should have a chance to get the best stuff regardless of what aspects of the game they play, since the only entitlement worth kitten is that gained by paying for the game. I don’t buy the line that, “playing harder content entitles you to better stuff.” I don’t care if the best stuff is hard to get in terms of resources gained, effort and time, but it should not be gated into one form of content.

In real life, egalitarian for me does not mean entitled, it means that I should have the same opportunity to work my kitten off as anyone else regardless of race, etc. RL and game are different in that regard, since if doing what I like is not worth as much as doing what I hate, then I will make less money. In game, the only “others” who can determine the worth of what I choose to do are the developers, certainly not other players. The money I paid for the game is worth no more, but certainly no less, than anyone else’s.

A minor distinction. Having an opportunity does not necessarily equate to “I will have it”. I may have the chance to get a bestseller published to make J.K. Rowling’s sales figures look puny. Is it going to happen? (laugh) Heck no, not without me meeting them halfway by actually having something of that quality.

I would also say I will always say “the value of what I do in the game is determined by me, none other”. Nobody can take a personal achievement (“I actually managed to walk from Rata Sum to Hoelbrak without gates or waypoints”) and tell me that it’s worthless . . . it’s worth something to me.