Guild Wars 2

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Would you have a problem, in real life, if you first have to carry 1000 stones of 1kg just such that you can play a friendly game of chess with friends?

Would you have a problem (in rl) if you first have to eat 100 big macs before you can watch the movie you like?

I like a little collecting, sure, but you compare a job with entertainment. For entertainment you pay a ticket (50 euro) and you can experience it and to not want real life principles creeping into it is a reasonable demand.

I don’t agree with your comprasion, I think it misses the point.
First of all, real life if a kitty and it’s not true that those who work harder are rewarded.
If you think so, then you’re living in a bubble.

But also in real life if you really want to measure who “worked harder” professionally, you should look at sports or various competitions.
And there you will see that the subject of equal starting point is taken extremely seriously, down to milimeters and miliseconds so that you can really measure who is the best by their achievements only. Because it’s implied taht those who win actually worked hard to get experience and skills.

To sum it up: I actually believe that people who advocate for better gear for more grind in-game are the actually lazy ones that want to use shortcuts to get anywhere.
And if you look closely, you’ll see that ANet actually agrees: gear in sPvP stays unchanged.
That’s a great decision, but I do believe that this should apply to PvE as well, for the same reasons. If you and your friends beat a dungeon that me and my friends can’t, I want to be certain this is only because you’re better players: better at teamplay, better at your class, whatever. Not because you farmed more. This is what I see as fair and this is the kind of game I wanted to play.

If I work my butt off for something it better be something that’s better than something I could have gotten in 5 minutes!!!

Don’t hate me. <3

Belteshazzar.6307:

If I work my butt off for something it better be something that’s better than something I could have gotten in 5 minutes!!!

Don’t hate me. <3

I don’t hate you. I can agree with the sentiment, as I could be very annoyed if I was put through . . . say, one of those game shows where you are put through “hilarious” challenges so the audience can laugh at you, and all you get is a T-shirt from CafePress or a chrome-plated medal.

Though one of the things we did seem to be discussing is “how can you measure better value when we talk about intangibles?” Not simply “this is better than that because it’s more valuable” or “because this one has more to it”.

(That definition of “better because it’s more” is something I don’t want to get into here, because it’s at the OP’s leisure to decide if that’s on topic or not. He was starting talking about “hard work and rewards” and how they relate.)

beren.6048:

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Would you have a problem, in real life, if you first have to carry 1000 stones of 1kg just such that you can play a friendly game of chess with friends?

Would you have a problem (in rl) if you first have to eat 100 big macs before you can watch the movie you like?

I like a little collecting, sure, but you compare a job with entertainment. For entertainment you pay a ticket (50 euro) and you can experience it and to not want real life principles creeping into it is a reasonable demand.

How did you acquire the chess board? Did you have to make money (a job) to get the necessary funds to enjoy having “fun”? How did you get the money to buy the ticket to enjoy the movies too? Did you have to work for it?

beren.6048:

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Would you have a problem, in real life, if you first have to carry 1000 stones of 1kg just such that you can play a friendly game of chess with friends?

Would you have a problem (in rl) if you first have to eat 100 big macs before you can watch the movie you like?

I like a little collecting, sure, but you compare a job with entertainment. For entertainment you pay a ticket (50 euro) and you can experience it and to not want real life principles creeping into it is a reasonable demand.

I think why some people like vertical progression is the means of getting to the “end” although for some its a grind.. for some its actually fun and they enjoy it, it’s pretty psychological.

neoquicksilver.7109:

How did you acquire the chess board? Did you have to make money (a job) to get the necessary funds to enjoy having “fun”? How did you get the money to buy the ticket to enjoy the movies too? Did you have to work for it?

Yes, of course – just like i had to work to get money for Guild Wars 2. Why would i want to work for the same thing twice?

In real life I’m liberal and I don’t like the changes so I guess on some level that supports your theory.
But just like real life the truth is finding the balance in the two ideologies is the key to maintaining a working society.
I’m not so apposed to the gear itself as I’m apposed to them centering this gear around a dungeon grind.
Grinding some dungeon a bazillion times makes this game become very small at endgame and ignores this games strongest feature, its ability to spontaneously bring large groups of players together to fight a common foe.
They have killed their open world endgame at the moment and I’m all about freedom of choice. The old top level gear you could get by Karma, crafting or running dungeons.
Today the game has less endgame freedom, and regardless if your political view points might be both sides will agree Freedom is a good thing.

It’s sad that some people try and equate a good work ethic with grinding in a game. The irony is, these “most dedicated players” are probably ignoring REAL work and chores in real life like housework to spend more time grinding.

This is a GAME.
If you are into the competitive side (WvW) then you should think of sports where BOTH SIDES start on equal footing, with skill being the decider.
If you are into the PvE side, you should consider FUN to be the objective (exploration, new wardrobe, working together to overcome challenges, etc.) not spending obscene amounts of time grinding for more stats.

neoquicksilver.7109:

beren.6048:

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Would you have a problem, in real life, if you first have to carry 1000 stones of 1kg just such that you can play a friendly game of chess with friends?

Would you have a problem (in rl) if you first have to eat 100 big macs before you can watch the movie you like?

I like a little collecting, sure, but you compare a job with entertainment. For entertainment you pay a ticket (50 euro) and you can experience it and to not want real life principles creeping into it is a reasonable demand.

How did you acquire the chess board? Did you have to make money (a job) to get the necessary funds to enjoy having “fun”? How did you get the money to buy the ticket to enjoy the movies too? Did you have to work for it?

This is the same wrong comparison, work is work, a game is entertainment. You worked or somebody worked to buy you GW2. You paid.

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

the keyword being “game?”

Belteshazzar.6307:

beren.6048:

cegorach.5624:

zargnath.9524:

IRL I would actualy say work hard to get rewarded. But the problem is I play this game for fun. I have already payed 60$ to have fun and I would prefer not having to grind to have fun when it would be possible to create an option that wouldn’t force me to grind before having fun.

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Would you have a problem, in real life, if you first have to carry 1000 stones of 1kg just such that you can play a friendly game of chess with friends?

Would you have a problem (in rl) if you first have to eat 100 big macs before you can watch the movie you like?

I like a little collecting, sure, but you compare a job with entertainment. For entertainment you pay a ticket (50 euro) and you can experience it and to not want real life principles creeping into it is a reasonable demand.

I think why some people like vertical progression is the means of getting to the “end” although for some its a grind.. for some its actually fun and they enjoy it, it’s pretty psychological.

By itself collecting something for a long time is fun, you feel like you achieved something or like you have something to do. However, too much grind and it will become unplayable for people who are not prepared to play a game as a job or who are new to the game because they don’t have what is necessary to play the latest content and finding a party for the old content will become harder and harder. The optimal way lays in the middle I guess.

cegorach.5624:

If you’re someone who in real life believes that only those who work hard should be rewarded, is that a view you will transpose onto a game and vice versa?

If you believe that everyone deserves an equal chance and should be supported in order to reach their potential, do you apply that to both online and offline activities?

I’d be curious to hear from people who are strongly progressive or conservative in real life but reverse their position in an online game.

It is because we work hard, fulfill family obligations and better ourselves in real life that we don’t have an endless amount of time to grind in a game. That is why we purchased a game sold on the basis that there wouldn’t be an excessive grind. And that is why we don’t want the precious time we have invested in that game doing the amount of grinding that was necessary to have been wasted, which it is if we just walk away rather than expressing our displeasure and pushing for a change.

This is a lot like the the people saying that if the changes bother you, you need to get a life. We have a life, that is why the changes bother us.

cegorach.5624:

So you would have a problem in real life about an option that would allow you to be rewarded without working hard?

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

reading things like this makes me die a little inside.

on one hand you have real life where people go through school, get jobs, live, love, and die.
on the other hand you have a video game that people purchased for entertainment.

…and then you seriously ask why people view them differently?

you cannot go into a store and purchase a new life in a shrink wrapped box for 60$ for starters…

This is a false comparison. Real life careers aren’t “grindy” by design, it is simply how it must be. You produce a product or perform a service for money. This is simply how life works due to things like supply and demand. Companies generally don’t add grind (busy work) for the sake of keeping you busy, they want value-added work from their employees.

Games aren’t meant to be work and shouldn’t devolve into that. They are meant to be fun. Everyone has a different idea of what is/isn’t fun, and that’s why there’s debates.

cegorach.5624:

But with a relative degree of seriousness, I’d like to put forward the argument that the issue dividing the community – vertical gear progression through the Ascended mechanic and what will almost certainly follow – is something that divides the world on a larger scale.

Quite simply, it’s a conflict between an egalitarian viewpoint (everyone should have an equal chance for enjoyment) and that of an elitist viewpoint (only certain people should benefit under circumstances I dictate, generally those favourable to me)

On a slightly more serious note, I do wonder if these arguments – if not necessarily dictating a condition of total adherence – do see an online/offline correlation.

Nope, most people I know in real life that play games view it as entertainment, so what they feel about working hard in real life does not apply. (Most are also either conservative or liberal (properly liberal as opposed to Fox “News” ‘liberal’, as in they believe in small government, free market, etc))

Indeed from my experience a good number of those who think they should be rewarded somehow for putting in long hours and “working” in an MMORPG are precisely the people that have a signifcant amount of spare time, because in real life they are not working hard, I’d even suggest in some cases it is filling a void from their real life.

I’d also add that in the specific case of GW2, there are plenty of people who do (or did) “work hard” in other games, they bought this game on the understanding that it was different.

You can also “work hard” in different ways, people that spend their time theory crafting and practicing for sPvP work hard, they simply don’t grind a gear treadmill.

cegorach.5624:

I’d be curious to hear from people who are strongly progressive or conservative in real life but reverse their position in an online game.

way too many mixed metaphors,

As a meta concept: all souls are created equal, or that each of us has the capacity for greater awareness,

Your theory boils the issue down to ‘resource competition’. Of all things, computer games are the most ideal for erasing that competitive need.

You really can’t mix politics in, as politics is the act of lying. Ergo the greatest liar usually wins. The narratives that you have outlined are both false.

An argument based on a false premise has little hope of ‘finding truth’.

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

By “access to fun” do you mean “access to high end gear”?
To me the little piles of bits and bytes that make up virtual possessions is not where the fun is. To me the fun should be in the gameplay.

Besides, IRL there are a lot of people who do work hard but don’t have much “fun” because their employer pays poorly in spite of the fact that it’s important to them that those jobs get done.

Funny read. I will point out 2 basic truths.

1: Every single person on this planet is different from everyone else. We do not clone people yet.

2: Work in its basic form is defined as a set of actions directed to produce or accomplish something. That is its definition. With that in mind, no activity ever performed required 0 work.

Someone pointed out sitting under a tree and watching birds. That required work to get to the tree, breath while sitting, rotate your eyeballs to follow the birds, send electrical impulses from your eyes to your brain who then works to interpret those impulses.

Someone also said games are ment to be fun and no work involved. Say that to a pro football player or any game that can have a winner. Everything in life has a winner and a loser. Trying to change that fact with the ideology of everyone deserves a blue ribbon, actually makes you the loser in lifes most basic principle.

No one is equal.

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

I actually think it is about games and game design. But, I often write with a sardonic tone that is difficult to detect.

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

… quite a unique way to spend a welfare/unemployment check, I know of several in rl doing so.

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

Those who work hard in life cannot be succesfull in a game that requires grind in order to progress(This is a simple fact), regardless of what philosophy they cater to. Just a simple statement for some people here.

The real issue here is that we need to “grind” and lots of time to get the gear as opposed to say, hard jumping puzzles and a scavenger hunt. Grinding is not hard, its time consuming.

Some of us need greater mental stimulation than gear grinds I suppose.

Nabbis.5784:

Those who work hard in life cannot be succesfull in a game that requires grind in order to progress(This is a simple fact), regardless of what philosophy they cater to. Just a simple statement for some people here.

The real issue here is that we need to “grind” and lots of time to get the gear as opposed to say, hard jumping puzzles and a scavenger hunt. Grinding is not hard, its time consuming.

That is not a simple fact, that is a simple opinion. Fact requires it to be demonstrably so, while I know people successful in life who are successful in grindy games. A guy I know is married, has two kids, a decent enough job to pay for his life . . . he, my brother, and I have thoroughly played a grindy game together until we kicked it in its teeth and took its lunch money.

(That game was not Guild Wars 2 or World of Warcraft, for the record; it was an entry in the Monster Hunter series.)

Another person I know of (but do not personally know) was exceedingly successful taking another RPG in his spare time and deconstructing it down to algorithms of how things actually work. Don’t believe me? Go to GameFAQs and look at the FAQs for “Disgaea: Hour of Darkness” . . . a grindy game, where someone wrote a stellar FAQ and had time for a life as well as to play the game and then write the FAQ up.

This is a recreational activity. First and foremost it is supposed to be fun. I don’t think a stat armor treadmill is fun. Max armor/ weapons should be like buying a car. Maybe you’ll buy a Lexus or maybe you’ll buy a little compact. However, no matter what you buy you shouldn’t worry about whether the car is going to be capable of doing the speed limit. The car needs to be able to do that to be functional.

I am conservative in real life. I believe in working for what you get. I think by the time you put in the time to get your toon to level 80 that you have put in enough work to get a full max set of armor.

for the grinders and hardcore. There’s titles, elite skins, dungeons, etc that they can shoot for. I think that is how it should be. However,The idea that I have to have no life at all to enjoy the game and preform well in it is absurd.

We are three months after release and there’s a new stat tier? I worked hard on my exotics. I am tired of the grind already. Now my armor is obsolete? Plus I have to do dungeons now like it or not for the new armor? Unacceptable! especially so, since they promised no grind.

Ruien.9506:

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

You are confusing life and computer game. One of the pros of virtual world is that it doesn’t have to run on the same rules – it offers something different. For normal life, we don’t need games.

Astralporing.1957:

Ruien.9506:

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

You are confusing life and computer game. One of the pros of virtual world is that it doesn’t have to run on the same rules – it offers something different. For normal life, we don’t need games.

Well, I think it’s proven and generally accepted that while games/entertainment is not physically vital it is mentally and emotionally useful to have some outlet to pour your time into. It is similar to pets – while they are not vital to living, they do enrich your life and people who have pets live longer.

It’s not entirely about “I just need to have fun”, it’s more that “I need some time where my brain has a chance to stop dwelling on the rest of my life”. Other than sleeping, naturally.

And:

“How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. "

I’m not sure if you dropped a word and meant “how hard you work” instead of “how you work” but both are equally important to consider.

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

But with a relative degree of seriousness, I’d like to put forward the argument that the issue dividing the community – vertical gear progression through the Ascended mechanic and what will almost certainly follow – is something that divides the world on a larger scale.

Quite simply, it’s a conflict between an egalitarian viewpoint (everyone should have an equal chance for enjoyment) and that of an elitist viewpoint (only certain people should benefit under circumstances I dictate, generally those favourable to me).

This is an argument repeated time and time again, in almost every area of endeavour.

You have the bleeding heart libruls on one hand, who apparently want the world to spiral into a socialist nightmare by forcing hard working folks to sacrifice, so that the less worthy can be on an equal footing.

Then you have the fascist conservatives, whose ‘I got mine and I ain’t got use for you unless it’s cleaning my pool’ worldview is rapidly destroying the planet and winding us back to the dark ages of repression that have imprisoned humanity for most of its history.

On a slightly more serious note, I do wonder if these arguments – if not necessarily dictating a condition of total adherence – do see an online/offline correlation.

If you’re someone who in real life believes that only those who work hard should be rewarded, is that a view you will transpose onto a game and vice versa?

If you believe that everyone deserves an equal chance and should be supported in order to reach their potential, do you apply that to both online and offline activities?

I’d be curious to hear from people who are strongly progressive or conservative in real life but reverse their position in an online game.

NO.

This is incorrect. The argument is the opposite of what you think. The idea is that in order to get ahead you have to do it a certain specific path.

Imagine a society with no steel workers, no chefs, only coal miners. This is the new society off Tyria. Some people do not like mining coal. Some of us do other jobs in the game.

There are commanders, crafters, pvpers, WvW players, and so on.

Its about being forced to work in a coal mine to get what other people have so we can be equal.

This is not fun and this is not life. It is a grind.

Real world comparison is bad. It does not work properly for this. People still want to earn what is theirs and they can’t. Even people with huge amounts of gold in the game cannot buy them from the TP.

Hey..uh..does anybody every consider that the world is huge and full of stuff to do in your free time and that lingering on but one of those things screaming about how it should be changed to your liking is kind of insane? Realistically, if this game changed direction or you don’t like it anymore why not just go play a different game, or do something else entirely?

Yeah, mmo needs to relate to human nature.
It must be built around human nature.

Some players said that games are supposed to be a leisure. I agree and disagree on this. In console games where it’s the world that only one player exists, yes it can be a leisure. However, mmorpg is a virtual reality with massive people. A world of virtual reality is a reflection of the real world. Human nature inevitably exists in-game. If some forgotten, life itself is a game. A good mmorpg revolves around both leisure and human nature.

It can be evidently seen. Players wants to feel special by standing out in crowds. Players want perfection and completion. Players wants to have something that 90% of the population doesn’t have. Players want to climb higher and higher. If we achieve some sort of rare item of use that most do not have, we feel like a “winner”. I believe everyone has some form of adhd traits in us. These are all human nature.

Imo back before 15th November, gw2 was pretty weak in playing around human nature in the game. I see that they’re already making efforts to improve in the basic needs of players. After the fractal and ascended release, they must have noticed in their database that their online players concurrency has increased.

“We’re very excited about the new content, and from the reactions we have seen, so are many of you. Players have already spent an incredible amount of time in the new Fractals dungeon, and their reaction to it has been phenomenal.” – by Chris Whiteside

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/chris-whiteside-on-the-lost-shores-and-beyond/

Keep up the good work.

Mr International.3715:

Hey..uh..does anybody every consider that the world is huge and full of stuff to do in your free time and that lingering on but one of those things screaming about how it should be changed to your liking is kind of insane? Realistically, if this game changed direction or you don’t like it anymore why not just go play a different game, or do something else entirely?

The day I stop being entertained from this game, I’ll be doing just that. No shouting from the rooftops, no big bold posts about how the game sucks and the people still playing are sheep, no raging against what I see as unfun.

I’ll just put it down and walk away. I’ve done it before (EverQuest: Planes of Power, Ultima Online, The Realm, Meridian 59, Legend of the Green Dragon, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Monster Hunter Tri, and these are just games which had an online community.)

Naoko.7096:

Yeah, mmo needs to relate to human nature.
It must be built around human nature.

Some players said that games are supposed to be a leisure. I agree and disagree on this. In console games where it’s the world that only one player exists, yes it can be a leisure. However, mmorpg is a virtual reality with massive people. A world of virtual reality is a reflection of the real world. Human nature inevitably exists in-game. If some forgotten, life itself is a game. A good mmorpg revolves around both leisure and human nature.

It can be evidently seen. Players wants to feel special by standing out in crowds. Players want perfection and completion. Players wants to have something that 90% of the population doesn’t have. Players want to climb higher and higher. If we achieve some sort of rare item of use that most do not have, we feel like a “winner”. I believe everyone has some form of adhd traits in us. These are all human nature.

Imo back before 15th November, gw2 was pretty weak in playing around human nature in the game. I see that they’re already making efforts to improve in the basic needs of players. After the fractal and ascended release, they must have noticed in their database that their online players concurrency has increased.

“We’re very excited about the new content, and from the reactions we have seen, so are many of you. Players have already spent an incredible amount of time in the new Fractals dungeon, and their reaction to it has been phenomenal.” – by Chris Whiteside

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/chris-whiteside-on-the-lost-shores-and-beyond/

Keep up the good work.

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Mr International.3715:

Hey..uh..does anybody every consider that the world is huge and full of stuff to do in your free time and that lingering on but one of those things screaming about how it should be changed to your liking is kind of insane? Realistically, if this game changed direction or you don’t like it anymore why not just go play a different game, or do something else entirely?

Arguments like this (don’t like it! leave)
Contribute nothing to the situation or the discussion. This argument could be made about anything. The problem is if you keep following this argument things never improve.

-If there were potholes in the road that were so bad they ruined your car, you should quit driving.

-If you city is full of violent crime you should move away.

- If a relationship is having problems you shouldn’t try to resolve it you should abandon it.

This argument applied to anything else only proves that you don’t really care about making things better or improving your quality of life. It only shows you are either a coward or a quitter.

So please refrain from using this bad argument.

Mr International.3715:

Hey..uh..does anybody every consider that the world is huge and full of stuff to do in your free time and that lingering on but one of those things screaming about how it should be changed to your liking is kind of insane? Realistically, if this game changed direction or you don’t like it anymore why not just go play a different game, or do something else entirely?

Ironicly enough, the did just that. They left. Now the maps are empty. Happy now? The few that doing fractals to grind out the new armor. Now the maps are emptier than ever.

Your “love it or lrave it attitude” is not good for the health of the game. It Behooves everyone for the game to be healthy. you can say, well there’s no sub. That is true, but if it doesn’t work out they can close the game down. Look at city of heroes.

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

Naoko.7096:

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

No people HAVE to progress.

Why do countries other than the U.S. feel the need to improve their weaponry?

Its about advantage. This stat buff forces you to go up to stay competitive. If everyone else has a gun and you have a knife then why would you want a gun?

Also these dungeons have already proven the dark side of this. “You don’t have full exotics, we are not going to dungeon with you.”

Its turning people into elitists.

i think many people have some type of disorder where they are having a hard time distinguishing between what is important in the real world and things people just do for fun.

i dont watch a movie seeking some type of advancement in life, all i expect it to do is entertain me. that is what i paid for and that is what i expect. i want an escape from reality for a short time where i can just sit back and relax while enjoying something.

thats what entertainment is for.

a video game is entertainment. its only here to keep you amused when you have time to spare. it is not supposed to be work or consume your life. its supposed to be something fun to do when you are bored.

i do not understand how people can keep comparing that to real life.

real life matters, video games do not. when your life ends you no longer exist, when a game ends you can just go buy another one.

trying to compare life to video games is like trying to compare trees to cars.

Naoko.7096:

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

Here’s the thing – they aren’t improving themselves by grinding.

The idea that people constantly want to improve themselves runs completely counter to the idea that people should be willing to spend an excessive amount of time grinding for gear in a MMO.

They really aren’t improving their characters either, since content is being adjusted to meet the new tier. Hamster meet wheel…

Zoul.1087:

Naoko.7096:

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

No people HAVE to progress.

Why do countries other than the U.S. feel the need to improve their weaponry?

Its about advantage. This stat buff forces you to go up to stay competitive. If everyone else has a gun and you have a knife then why would you want a gun?

Also these dungeons have already proven the dark side of this. “You don’t have full exotics, we are not going to dungeon with you.”

Its turning people into elitists.

You . . . you didn’t just compare this to the nuclear arms race, please tell me that’s not your intent.

“If everyone else has a knife, why would you want a gun?”

Flawed analogy. A knife is more than a weapon, it is a tool to cut and shape things. Someone with a knife is dangerous because that tool can be used as a weapon. A gun is a weapon, which is used to kill people at a distance far more effectively than a knife, but a gun isn’t going to allow me to whittle a piece of wood down, or cut my steak.

If we talk about combat situations, there are plenty of reasons you don’t want a gun instead of a knife. There are reasons you wouldn’t bring out a knife at all., and it is proven you could be bare handed and still be lethal enough in certain combat situations. Even up against someone with a gun.

Ruien.9506:

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

Don’t take it personally. It’s an observation. Some of us have sufficient challenge and accomplishments in real life that we turn to game to relax and have fun, and we find little enjoyment in grinding things. Remember, this is a game, and no amount of macho behavior will change that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Astralporing.1957:

Ruien.9506:

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

You are confusing life and computer game. One of the pros of virtual world is that it doesn’t have to run on the same rules – it offers something different. For normal life, we don’t need games.

Well, I think it’s proven and generally accepted that while games/entertainment is not physically vital it is mentally and emotionally useful to have some outlet to pour your time into. It is similar to pets – while they are not vital to living, they do enrich your life and people who have pets live longer.

It’s not entirely about “I just need to have fun”, it’s more that “I need some time where my brain has a chance to stop dwelling on the rest of my life”. Other than sleeping, naturally.

And:

“How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. "

I’m not sure if you dropped a word and meant “how hard you work” instead of “how you work” but both are equally important to consider.

Nope I said exactly what I ment. Working hard has very little to do with it. How you work to succeed is what matters. But this is wisdom that todays generation cant comprehend because everyone thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread. Guess what? You arent.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

Naoko.7096:

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

No people HAVE to progress.

Why do countries other than the U.S. feel the need to improve their weaponry?

Its about advantage. This stat buff forces you to go up to stay competitive. If everyone else has a gun and you have a knife then why would you want a gun?

Also these dungeons have already proven the dark side of this. “You don’t have full exotics, we are not going to dungeon with you.”

Its turning people into elitists.

You . . . you didn’t just compare this to the nuclear arms race, please tell me that’s not your intent.

“If everyone else has a knife, why would you want a gun?”

Flawed analogy. A knife is more than a weapon, it is a tool to cut and shape things. Someone with a knife is dangerous because that tool can be used as a weapon. A gun is a weapon, which is used to kill people at a distance far more effectively than a knife, but a gun isn’t going to allow me to whittle a piece of wood down, or cut my steak.

If we talk about combat situations, there are plenty of reasons you don’t want a gun instead of a knife. There are reasons you wouldn’t bring out a knife at all., and it is proven you could be bare handed and still be lethal enough in certain combat situations. Even up against someone with a gun.

I like how you side stepped the point completely and went off on some wild tangent in order to be right. Way to ignore the actual subject.

If someone has superior arms to stay competitive or useful you have to have the same equipment. This was my point. If you are going to go into how knives and guns are different you are just throwing out strawmen.

I as going to use another analogy but I think you would just over analyze the difference between different things. A gun is not always superior is not a valid argument. My point is ASCENDED IS ALWAYS SUPERIOR.

Naoko.7096:

Yeah, mmo needs to relate to human nature.
It must be built around human nature.

Some players said that games are supposed to be a leisure. I agree and disagree on this. In console games where it’s the world that only one player exists, yes it can be a leisure. However, mmorpg is a virtual reality with massive people. A world of virtual reality is a reflection of the real world. Human nature inevitably exists in-game. If some forgotten, life itself is a game. A good mmorpg revolves around both leisure and human nature.

It can be evidently seen. Players wants to feel special by standing out in crowds. Players want perfection and completion. Players wants to have something that 90% of the population doesn’t have. Players want to climb higher and higher. If we achieve some sort of rare item of use that most do not have, we feel like a “winner”. I believe everyone has some form of adhd traits in us. These are all human nature.

Imo back before 15th November, gw2 was pretty weak in playing around human nature in the game. I see that they’re already making efforts to improve in the basic needs of players. After the fractal and ascended release, they must have noticed in their database that their online players concurrency has increased.

“We’re very excited about the new content, and from the reactions we have seen, so are many of you. Players have already spent an incredible amount of time in the new Fractals dungeon, and their reaction to it has been phenomenal.” – by Chris Whiteside

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/chris-whiteside-on-the-lost-shores-and-beyond/

Keep up the good work.

Yeah, I don’t doubt concurrent use went up with FotM. It was down pretty hard after all. What happens once this surge of players get their three pieces? Will they keep playing because it’s fun? Or, will they log off and do something else until the next pieces are announced? Time will tell, but if concurrency does drop off after a bit, don’t expect an ANet announcement about that.

Ruien.9506:

Nope I said exactly what I ment. Working hard has very little to do with it. How you work to succeed is what matters. But this is wisdom that todays generation cant comprehend because everyone thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread. Guess what? You arent.

Apologies, I was not attempting to put words in your mouth or twist what you were saying, just wasn’t sure I was reading it right. I agree that “how I work” is important. work doesn’t have to be hard, or soul-crushing, or on the flipside . . . easy, entertaining, and fun. Work is a complex word, and lots of people define it to have so many different connotations while expecting their definition to be the true one. This is how we wind up with qualifiers before “work” to try to explain exactly what we mean.

Your words as stated are something I can agree with. You don’t get anything you want simply by wanting it. You must do something for it. And in a world where you barter for what you want (at least in a majority of the world), you must offer something of equal agreed-upon value before you get what you want. It could be currency, it could be tasks, it could be something the other person wants that you have.

I hold this as a truth, in the sense that this is how the world by and large functions. That’s not the case for everything, but it’s close enough.

By the way, no I am not the best thing since sliced bread. I’m merely the best “myself” I can be. I am unique, I am special, but that does not mean I am better. It means “I am me, and there are no others who are me.”

I see it as more of a bizarro world scenario…those that work hard in real life want a game that is equal for everyone, whereas those that sit on their kitten at home grinding want leet loot. Follow?

Zoul.1087:

I like how you side stepped the point completely and went off on some wild tangent in order to be right. Way to ignore the actual subject.

If someone has superior arms to stay competitive or useful you have to have the same equipment. This was my point. If you are going to go into how knives and guns are different you are just throwing out strawmen.

I as going to use another analogy but I think you would just over analyze the difference between different things. A gun is not always superior is not a valid argument. My point is ASCENDED IS ALWAYS SUPERIOR.

. . . no, a knife and a gun are fundamentally different objects any more than an assault rifle is not a shotgun or a stick of dynamite is not a nuclear fission device. If you think that’s a strawman argument then you’re not understanding me.

And if we’re going to go back to “Ascended is always superior”, fine. I’ll bite, and we can even throw out assumptions and extrapolations of the future. Assume for a minute I agree that Ascended is always superior using the current situation. What if I get a Precursor and then start getting lucky and in a week I am sitting within spitting distance of a Legendary weapon. Is the Ascended armor still superior?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

I like how you side stepped the point completely and went off on some wild tangent in order to be right. Way to ignore the actual subject.

If someone has superior arms to stay competitive or useful you have to have the same equipment. This was my point. If you are going to go into how knives and guns are different you are just throwing out strawmen.

I as going to use another analogy but I think you would just over analyze the difference between different things. A gun is not always superior is not a valid argument. My point is ASCENDED IS ALWAYS SUPERIOR.

. . . no, a knife and a gun are fundamentally different objects any more than an assault rifle is not a shotgun or a stick of dynamite is not a nuclear fission device. If you think that’s a strawman argument then you’re not understanding me.

And if we’re going to go back to “Ascended is always superior”, fine. I’ll bite, and we can even throw out assumptions and extrapolations of the future. Assume for a minute I agree that Ascended is always superior using the current situation. What if I get a Precursor and then start getting lucky and in a week I am sitting within spitting distance of a Legendary weapon. Is the Ascended armor still superior?

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Its pointless and a futile attempt to derail the subject.

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

You have no point in your discussion other than to argue. So please try to stay on topic.

Zoul.1087:

No people HAVE to progress.

Why do countries other than the U.S. feel the need to improve their weaponry?

Its about advantage. This stat buff forces you to go up to stay competitive. If everyone else has a gun and you have a knife then why would you want a gun?

Also these dungeons have already proven the dark side of this. “You don’t have full exotics, we are not going to dungeon with you.”

Its turning people into elitists.

In other words, it’s about competition.
Without competition between countries, there’s no progression. Without progression, people have no reason to set goals in life. It goes against human nature. Competition is important in life. Without it, we wouldn’t have skyrise buildings. We would probably still be in stone age.

It applies almost to every aspect in life. (E.g. If a smartphone company have no business rivals, they will make the same smartphone and won’t make effort to improve it. If they have business rivals like Samsung and Iphones, they constantly compete with each other to create a better smartphone. Each company wants to be at advantage than another. As they progresses, people now have better and better smartphones through the years.)

It applies in mmorpgs too. Human nature plays a big part in mmorpg.
There’s an analogy. – “There’s only light if there is darkness.”
Darkness existed in the first place. People have to create light. If everything is light in the beginning, there’s no place to create your own light.

Earth (Positive/Negative emotions) > Utopia (No human emotions)
Before 15th November, gw2 was very near to utopia-like. The game starts to improve on the basic needs of players which I feel they made a good effort. I naturally want a game world where I can feel different types of emotions when I play. It’s basic human needs since everyone is born with emotions. It’s normal to want to be in a world to experience all that. Mmorpg is a game in “world” setting instead of “console” setting.