Guild Wars 2

daimasei.4091:

And when Anet add raids you will finish them, get bored, demand new ones, finish them, get bored, demand new ones, etc, etkittenil you found a new game without raids and move there to ask for raids leaving us, players who bought GW2 to get away from kittenty-raids-games or loyal GW players looking for a quality game like the original, with a lot of unwanted content nobody will do ever, and with a poorly developed game because Anet was to busy creating raids for you to pay attention to the rest of the game.

The thing is: If you love WoW Raids (or from any other of the bazillions of clones out there), WHY THAT HELL ARE YOU HERE ASKING FOR RAIDS? WoW is still online (same with most of their clones) as far as I’m aware.
If raids are truly that awesome, why don’t go and keep playing there?

And no, I’m not asking you to leave GW if you don’t like it or those kitten fanboys always said, I’m legitimately asking why, if raids are so great and there is already hundred of games with that system, why come to GW and ask for raids instead of keep playing in WoW?

Also, this is a F2P game, shinies and aesthetics items belong to the Gem Store. If we we could get shiny weapons by finishing a 10-15 men dungeon then, what would be Anet profit?

I really feel like you didn’t read my post. I enjoy GW2 thoroughly as a PvX player (wvw, pvp, and pve). It’s just unfortunate that PvE is currently lackluster and doesn’t offer any high-level PvE’ers any bit of a challenge.

daimasei.4091:

rant

And no, I’m not asking you to leave GW if you don’t like it or those kitten fanboys always said, I’m legitimately asking why, if raids are so great and there is already hundred of games with that system, why come to GW and ask for raids instead of keep playing in WoW?

Also, this is a F2P game, shinies and aesthetics items belong to the Gem Store. If we we could get shiny weapons by finishing a 10-15 men dungeon then, what would be Anet profit?

Because we like GW. It’s the best MMO on the market, why would anyone want to go play anything else? We want to play GW and we want raids included in the game, to make it even better. Also, please don’t assume we come from WoW. That game is terrible. Seriously, who plays that?

GW is not F2P. It’s B2P. Huge difference. And we already have shinies being sold in the gem store, as well as shinies available from completing specific content. Not sure how raids would change any of this…

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

I never really played WoW (free trial, that’s it), but I spent six years in FFXI. Can anyone explain to me like I’m a six year old what exactly raiding in an MMO is? Is it essentially a dungeon run with more people?

Raiding is exactly that. A dungeon run designed for more people than a standard dungeon group.

Raids are supposed to generally be harder content and in most games they’re more rewarding. This is where it gets tricky.

In almost every game with hard raids, only a small percentage of the gaming population ever finishes those raids. People compete for the honor to be the first guild to get it done. It tends to become very competitive, even within some guilds, to get a spot on the “A” team.

There are several problems I have with raids, having to do with dividing people in the game into haves and have nots. In a game without a trinity, I’m not sure how you’d handle a raid anyway, since the more people you have the easier stuff tends to be to zerg. It would certainly be a challenge to design.

What ends up happening in most guilds is you don’t have enough good people to do raids, and so you have to guilt people into showing up for raids and then carry them through it. Raids are hard…but only for the people running them.

I dislike what raids have done to the MMORPG community. Games that center on raids tend to be more about the MMO part and less about the RPG part. It’s all about boss fights and loot and beating your head against a problem until you solve it. That’s not RPGing to me. There are a million games out there with raids. Guild Wars 2, if it does implement them, should be very careful about how they do it.

^ this is the correct answer.

I still don’t believe people will raid (in bulk) if they don’t get more power out of it. Not that it couldn’t have been this way, but since most people have been trained by other games, they EXPECT more power out of raiding.

Some people, undoubtedly, will raid even for just cosmetic gear, but can you get groups of 20 to do that regularly? I’m thinking not.

This is why Anet ended up introducing ascended gear. Too many people weren’t going to work for cosmetics only. Anet was forced to compromise to keep some people in the game.

It’s a crappy truth, but it doesn’t make it false.

I don’t mind seeing 10-man raids with some challenging bosses that have phases and tons of unique skills. As for the rewards it should be only skins or some sort or dungeon tokens .

Vayne.8563:

I dislike what raids have done to the MMORPG community. Games that center on raids tend to be more about the MMO part and less about the RPG part.

I’d even argue that point, as in a Raid it’s not really “Massively” multiplayer. I’ve played Wolfenstein Enemy Territory matches with more players.

But I’m one of those people who thinks that instances have little to no place in MMOs in the first place. They defeat the object.

Firefly.5982:

Not giving raids their own reward tokens wouldn’t make sense – if you want dungeon armor now, you have to do dungeons. If you want raid armor then you have to do raids. Same stats, different aesthetics, but yeah. SOMETHING has to be given as reward

Nope .. i don’t have to raid for raid-armor .. simple because we don’t have raids. And this mindset is also why i am strictly against raids.

Threads like these always begin with saying that people only want it because all the fun and challenge they like so much .. but on the long run they always end with : why should i do that if i don’t get exclusive stuff to show i’m so much better than the rest.

Put lots of content including raids in which raids are optional, problem solved, do it who wants and gets raid skins who want.

I’m sure it has been said, but I’d prefer to see improvements to the meta bosses than instanced raids. I’m not 100% sure the way combat is set up it would be easy to code an instance for say 10-12 people. Too many variables would end up splitting the community with rages of “too easy” or “too hard”. It could be a no win situation for Anet

Randulf.7614:

I’m sure it has been said, but I’d prefer to see improvements to the meta bosses than instanced raids. I’m not 100% sure the way combat is set up it would be easy to code an instance for say 10-12 people. Too many variables would end up splitting the community with rages of “too easy” or “too hard”. It could be a no win situation for Anet

Isn’t it “no win” already?

Valento.9852:

Randulf.7614:

I’m sure it has been said, but I’d prefer to see improvements to the meta bosses than instanced raids. I’m not 100% sure the way combat is set up it would be easy to code an instance for say 10-12 people. Too many variables would end up splitting the community with rages of “too easy” or “too hard”. It could be a no win situation for Anet

Isn’t it “no win” already?

lol

Vayne.8563:

I still don’t believe people will raid (in bulk) if they don’t get more power out of it. Not that it couldn’t have been this way, but since most people have been trained by other games, they EXPECT more power out of raiding.

Some people, undoubtedly, will raid even for just cosmetic gear, but can you get groups of 20 to do that regularly? I’m thinking not.

This is why Anet ended up introducing ascended gear. Too many people weren’t going to work for cosmetics only. Anet was forced to compromise to keep some people in the game.

It’s a crappy truth, but it doesn’t make it false.

What? Your opinion does not make something truth, no matter how much you believe it.

docMed.7692:

Vayne.8563:

I still don’t believe people will raid (in bulk) if they don’t get more power out of it. Not that it couldn’t have been this way, but since most people have been trained by other games, they EXPECT more power out of raiding.

Some people, undoubtedly, will raid even for just cosmetic gear, but can you get groups of 20 to do that regularly? I’m thinking not.

This is why Anet ended up introducing ascended gear. Too many people weren’t going to work for cosmetics only. Anet was forced to compromise to keep some people in the game.

It’s a crappy truth, but it doesn’t make it false.

What? Your opinion does not make something truth, no matter how much you believe it.

Anet started this game with the idea that there could be no vertical progression at all. The people would work for skins and nothing else. They said in a couple of interviews that there would be no vertical progression.

And people were leaving the game. So Anet kitten ed off much of its loyal fan base by introducing ascended gear into the fractals, which was vertical progression. A lot of people who loved and supported this game walked away then. There was a significant drop in population at that time.

So why did Anet, knowing this would happen (indeed they said they knew there would be backlash) feel the need to add stats to the new tier of gear? Because people were NOT willing to work at content just for skins. Some were, but not enough. Once they had the stats they wanted, a lot of people were done and stopped playing. The fractals brought some of those people back.

If most people had been willing to work for just cosmetic gear, do you really think Anet would have had to make that change? A change that kitten ed off some of its biggest supporters?

We can go in circles all day on this, but the only truth here is; our opinions and experiences in the game do not make them fact.

We can’t simply take these and translate them across the board to all players and ArenaNet’s handlings as the reason they occurred. My experience, along with many of my friends, has been far different than what you have described as your own, and what you also feel the community feels. Nonetheless, it doesn’t in-turn mean that my experience is how everyone played or didnt play GW2 nor why ArenaNet made the decisions they made. Unless you have some kind of actual factual information (numbers showing drop in players, their opinions captured and summed into sortable reasons, etc), then you’re just speaking in generalities. Personally, I have full ascended gear, but my own motivation has been for the shinies (it’s why I have a legendary too). Also, it’s not like the currently available ascended gear (trinkets) or a portion of it, couldn’t be made available through these means too. It’s simply another way to "play the game as you see fit". It’s not required for anyone to participate in, and it satisfies the PvE’ers looking for an actual challenge that occurs amongst your friends and/or like-minded guildies. I just don’t see how guild missions, which occur in open-world, could ever be scaled or made challenging. Hard content in open-world would only lead to the one’s who care to get it done being angry and upset at the one’s "leaching" their efforts. I just don’t see how it can be designed to humor all skill levels and interest.

KeyLimPi.9031:

darkace.8925:

I never really played WoW (free trial, that’s it), but I spent six years in FFXI. Can anyone explain to me like I’m a six year old what exactly raiding in an MMO is? Is it essentially a dungeon run with more people?

Raids are essentially what Sea, Sky, and Salvage were to us in FFXI. Nice to meet another player.

Ok… You are not listening to facts.

GW2 is Community centered OPEN world game. With OPEN world RAIDING already in the game that no one even attempts to do.

It is time you either change how you wish to play in a game that has changed how it approaches raiding or go back to those games that require and already have instance raiding.

Ignoring me is like ignoring that GW2 is not going to change just to suit your wishes. Face the fact and get your guild to at least try to form a core DE raid group and try to use large numbers of people to explore the DE webs beyond the temples. There is your challenge. Do you accept or continue to ignore?

docMed.7692:

I’m writing this post as an avid Guid Wars 2 player with around 2,000 hours age. I spend a ton of my time PvX’ing and participate with a high-end min/maxing PvE focused guild and have been enjoying GW2 since launch despite a few hiccups and missing/standard quality of life features. Nonetheless, PvE has been feeling rather dull lately (guild missions on farm, solo’ing lupi becoming stale, and living story quite frankly just does not interest me). With this in mind I wanted to toss out a potential raiding structure and get some community feedback. Ultimately I doubt hardcore PvE’ers will ever get a challenging raid-like structure that provides good experiences for all level of play and that Anet would support (since their main focus is not hardcore no-lifers like myself, although, true story I do have a life!), but maybe this thread will help shed some light on this potential.

As I spent a significant amount of time raiding with us/world progression wow guilds, I have to say I do miss some of this structure. Mainly the sense of accomplishment, the excitement of getting people together to work on a specific goal, etc (I do not, however, miss gear-tier grinding for stat benefits). Ideally I would love to see a raiding structure in place (maybe 10-mans?) that featured challenging encounters with hard and normal modes. The loot would only be cosmetic-based rewards and the only benefit of completing hard modes would simply be access to the cosmetic rewards quicker and/or achievements/titles. Basically, the system could combine wow’s structure with Anet’s mindset on rewarding loot/not discriminating against types of players. On a side note I do believe there should be different cosmetic rewards for different types of play but all stats nonetheless should be made available in any type of PvX play.

Although Guild Missions are basically supposed to be raiding, open-world mechanics are just terrible and allow for easy trolling. We need some type of instance based content here.

So anyways, there’s my simplistic layout of a potential weekly-raid structure that all could enjoy if they like the chase for more cosmetics/achieves but wouldn’t have to participate in if they don’t! Feedback or your own ideas welcome!

subject line contains the word “Raid” nuff said, didn’t read.

Zepher.7803:

docMed.7692:

I’m writing this post as an avid Guid Wars 2 player with around 2,000 hours age. I spend a ton of my time PvX’ing and participate with a high-end min/maxing PvE focused guild and have been enjoying GW2 since launch despite a few hiccups and missing/standard quality of life features. Nonetheless, PvE has been feeling rather dull lately (guild missions on farm, solo’ing lupi becoming stale, and living story quite frankly just does not interest me). With this in mind I wanted to toss out a potential raiding structure and get some community feedback. Ultimately I doubt hardcore PvE’ers will ever get a challenging raid-like structure that provides good experiences for all level of play and that Anet would support (since their main focus is not hardcore no-lifers like myself, although, true story I do have a life!), but maybe this thread will help shed some light on this potential.

As I spent a significant amount of time raiding with us/world progression wow guilds, I have to say I do miss some of this structure. Mainly the sense of accomplishment, the excitement of getting people together to work on a specific goal, etc (I do not, however, miss gear-tier grinding for stat benefits). Ideally I would love to see a raiding structure in place (maybe 10-mans?) that featured challenging encounters with hard and normal modes. The loot would only be cosmetic-based rewards and the only benefit of completing hard modes would simply be access to the cosmetic rewards quicker and/or achievements/titles. Basically, the system could combine wow’s structure with Anet’s mindset on rewarding loot/not discriminating against types of players. On a side note I do believe there should be different cosmetic rewards for different types of play but all stats nonetheless should be made available in any type of PvX play.

Although Guild Missions are basically supposed to be raiding, open-world mechanics are just terrible and allow for easy trolling. We need some type of instance based content here.

So anyways, there’s my simplistic layout of a potential weekly-raid structure that all could enjoy if they like the chase for more cosmetics/achieves but wouldn’t have to participate in if they don’t! Feedback or your own ideas welcome!

subject line contains the word “Raid” nuff said, didn’t read.

That’s fine; to each their own! Although I think you would find this is a much lighter take on the idea!

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Karizee.8076:

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Even though this is what blizzard claims, I call BS. What else is there to do? LFR and regular raids..

Karizee.8076:

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Whoa, that’s news to me – There’s really only 300,000?! I can’t recall meeting any player who has not participated in a normal mode raid, let alone LFR. Do you have a link to this article? I’d be interested in reading up on it.

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Basic problem with raids (and raiders) is that unless u make it focus of PvE end game it will fail . Nice example is gw1 and its 12 man elite missions The Deep and Urgoz’s Warren . Without special loot they were significantly less popular than normal instances – waste of resources imo .

For me personally, raids are things of past, seen that, done that, have zero interest in second job in virtual world …

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again - where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

**Edit** - I’m not saying open-world is necessarily bad, I’m just saying there is nothing there that is even remotely challenging. Guild Puzzles are the first thing that are actually pretty cool, challenging, and require some thought, but again, are just faceroll easy with a large group (i.e. poor scaling due to it being required to be in open-world). Dungeons are the hardest PvE type content, and again, this is faceroll easy as well. Not to mention, it makes it tough to experience this content with such a small group and I think many here would be open to the idea of challenging content that can be accomplished more with the people you choose to spend your time/surround one’s self with.

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again - where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

docMed.7692:

Karizee.8076:

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Whoa, that’s news to me – There’s really only 300,000?! I can’t recall meeting any player who has not participated in a normal mode raid, let alone LFR. Do you have a link to this article? I’d be interested in reading up on it.

No article needed. This links directly into their armory.

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Scroll down, 26,569 guilds have downed 1 boss (Jin’rokh) Of those, 25,836 are 10 man groups, the rest are 25 man groups.

It really is a very very tiny portion of the mmorpg community that likes raiding. They make a lot of noise but the numbers just aren’t there.

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

He’s talking about Raids.

Raids aren’t inherently guild activity (though it does make them easier), but any group can form up and do them, to varying degrees of success.

ANet decided they wanted raids, but not the standard; form up, go to instance, beatup loot pinata, profit format. They decided to take the concept of the DE and expand on it in one zone of the game that would require the large scale coordinated effort similar to raiding, but without all its inherent restrictions.

Karizee.8076:

docMed.7692:

Karizee.8076:

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Whoa, that’s news to me – There’s really only 300,000?! I can’t recall meeting any player who has not participated in a normal mode raid, let alone LFR. Do you have a link to this article? I’d be interested in reading up on it.

No article needed. This links directly into their armory.

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Scroll down, 26,569 guilds have downed 1 boss (Jin’rokh) Of those, 25,836 are 10 man groups, the rest are 25 man groups.

It really is a very very tiny portion of the mmorpg community that likes raiding. They make a lot of noise but the numbers just aren’t there.

So this is ignoring the implementation of LFR, not to mention is a 3rd-party site? Sorry, this is probably a good representation of some of the higher level population in the game that raids, but it’s also missing a good majority of the more casual players in LFR. I’d be interested in actual Blizzard statistics and/or the population that raided prior to LFR for a more accurate representation. Can you literally think of any WoW players you know that have not raided in some capacity (LFR/normal/Hard)?

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

He’s talking about Raids.

Raids aren’t inherently guild activity (though it does make them easier), but any group can form up and do them, to varying degrees of success.

ANet decided they wanted raids, but not the standard; form up, go to instance, beatup loot pinata, profit format. They decided to take the concept of the DE and expand on it in one zone of the game that would require the large scale coordinated effort similar to raiding, but without all its inherent restrictions.

Yea, I don’t mind the guild missions model. We have it on farm currently and it provides some great rewards too. The problem is, the content does not provide any challenge whatsoever. They need to implement something for players that actually want a challenge and I just don’t see how this could be accomplished in open-world, which leads me back to the dirty word of raids (albeit this take is much lighter in the sense though). There is just too much wrong with scaling, fight mecahnics, actual challenege (oh and overflow, such as the southsun events, your guild has the hassle of trying to get into the same zone if you get a challenge and/or rush there).

docMed.7692:

Karizee.8076:

docMed.7692:

Karizee.8076:

darkace.8925:

So if it’s just a dungeon with more people, what exactly about raids makes them so popular?

There’s the fallacy.

They are only popular with a very small niche community. Even WoW with it’s 8 million subscribers has less than 300k people raiding.

Whoa, that’s news to me – There’s really only 300,000?! I can’t recall meeting any player who has not participated in a normal mode raid, let alone LFR. Do you have a link to this article? I’d be interested in reading up on it.

No article needed. This links directly into their armory.

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Scroll down, 26,569 guilds have downed 1 boss (Jin’rokh) Of those, 25,836 are 10 man groups, the rest are 25 man groups.

It really is a very very tiny portion of the mmorpg community that likes raiding. They make a lot of noise but the numbers just aren’t there.

So this is ignoring the implementation of LFR, not to mention is a 3rd-party site? Sorry, this is probably a good representation of some of the higher level population in the game that raids, but it’s also missing a good majority of the more casual players in LFR. I’d be interested in actual Blizzard statistics and/or the population that raided prior to LFR for a more accurate representation. Can you literally think of any WoW players you know that have not raided in some capacity (LFR/normal/Hard)?

People doing LFR aren’t the hardcore PVEer’s looking for challenging raid-like structure that you referenced in your initial post.

In fact, those LFRers are much more likely to enjoy guild missions or meta events

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

He’s talking about Raids.

Raids aren’t inherently guild activity (though it does make them easier), but any group can form up and do them, to varying degrees of success.

ANet decided they wanted raids, but not the standard; form up, go to instance, beatup loot pinata, profit format. They decided to take the concept of the DE and expand on it in one zone of the game that would require the large scale coordinated effort similar to raiding, but without all its inherent restrictions.

Yea, I don’t mind the guild missions model. We have it on farm currently and it provides some great rewards too. The problem is, the content does not provide any challenge whatsoever. They need to implement something for players that actually want a challenge and I just don’t see how this could be accomplished in open-world, which leads me back to the dirty word of raids (albeit this take is much lighter in the sense though). There is just too much wrong with scaling, fight mecahnics, actual challenege (oh and overflow, such as the southsun events, your guild has the hassle of trying to get into the same zone if you get a challenge and/or rush there).

Thing is, raids are no more of a challenge, other then the initial time doing them. Once you have the right party makeup, memorize the pattern, and get the coordination down, what is the challenge?

That sounds a hell of a lot like any of the Meta Events, only the party makeup is less important, and the pattern can be somewhat over looked if the party size is there. Plus I only have to dedicate a fraction of my gaming night to complete 1 event.

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am saying what Ordika stated

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

edit: For a successful raid to take place in GW2 the follow must be done per the article:

1) huge events which means you need a lot of people. More then 1 guild.

2) you must use those that have the command icon so they will be able to be watched on the mini-map so those assigned to them can stick with them.

3) you must pick key objectives to hold and keep like for example the temples. this means people will be left behind but can be rotated out to more forward positions on another day.

4) control will have longer affect then in the lower levels so control may in time become easy to maintain.

All these factor to me are raid centered and oriented but at the some time community orient because it will take a large number of people to maintain and control through guilds and voice chat.

To me that is challenging and exciting.

At this time people refuse to do this or ignore it all together and instead dream of the old days which ending up being elitist and self-serving behavior. Something many of us hate and have no desire to do. that is why we came to this game.

The only issue I have with raids as per the WoW example is that it breeds elitism. Then you have what we currently have with the Warrior/Berserker requirements for dugeon “speed runs” but multiplied a hundred fold. Raiders “expect” you to have specific gear, be traited in specific ways, to do things in specific order and so on. When a game gets to that point and I have to play my character the way someone else wants and not the way I want in order to take part in the latest content then it no longer becomes fun.

docMed.7692:

We can go in circles all day on this, but the only truth here is; our opinions and experiences in the game do not make them fact.

We can’t simply take these and translate them across the board to all players and ArenaNet’s handlings as the reason they occurred. My experience, along with many of my friends, has been far different than what you have described as your own, and what you also feel the community feels. Nonetheless, it doesn’t in-turn mean that my experience is how everyone played or didnt play GW2 nor why ArenaNet made the decisions they made. Unless you have some kind of actual factual information (numbers showing drop in players, their opinions captured and summed into sortable reasons, etc), then you’re just speaking in generalities. Personally, I have full ascended gear, but my own motivation has been for the shinies (it’s why I have a legendary too). Also, it’s not like the currently available ascended gear (trinkets) or a portion of it, couldn’t be made available through these means too. It’s simply another way to “play the game as you see fit”. It’s not required for anyone to participate in, and it satisfies the PvE’ers looking for an actual challenge that occurs amongst your friends and/or like-minded guildies. I just don’t see how guild missions, which occur in open-world, could ever be scaled or made challenging. Hard content in open-world would only lead to the one’s who care to get it done being angry and upset at the one’s “leaching” their efforts. I just don’t see how it can be designed to humor all skill levels and interest.

You can go in circles all day. The stuff I said about why Anet did what they did was pulled from stuff Anet themselves have said. I’m not making stuff up. I’m notoriously bad at looking up quotes, but I’m pretty good at getting the gist of what people are saying inside Anet at different points.

There was a lot said in November about this, good luck finding it all now, but this isn’t made up stuff. And Anet had no reason to break their word to their fans unless they really felt they had to.

People who are raiders tend to want better gear. Not all of them, but enough of them. Over the years, there have been tons of polls about who raids and who doesn’t raid, and it’s always surprised me how small a percentage of the gaming population actually raids (just as it would likely surprise you what percentage of the WoW population insists on soloing).

It seems like the content added is getting easier, not staying the same level of difficulty, and definitely not getting harder. I find that odd?

When they mentioned guild missions I really thought we’d be see 10 man+ dungeons with more difficulty bosses that were more than weekly.

I’d really enjoy to see guild missions not requiring so much influence and being daily, not monthly.

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am.

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

Huh?

I don’t have an issue with the desire for content for larger structured groups….ie raids. I only take issue with such things when discrimination and exclusion come into play, which sadly is very common in MMOs.

“Oh you haven’t ever done it before? I’m not taking you”
“Go roll x class”
“Get better gear”

So on and so forth, all things we already have issues with in other areas, but those are other threads.

However, I do like this type of play. I enjoyed the 2-team missions in GW1, I enjoyed Urgoz and even The Deep. All required larger, coordinated team play (before easy mode). I would not have an issue having similar aspects in GW2, and perhaps we will.

Anet has said that there would be “no raids” in GW2; however, I do feel they were specifically addressing WoW style raids – gear locking, etc. After all, they have already started including content for ‘larger groups’ to address the concerns of larger guilds, and large DE events are (in a sense) open world raids anyway.

Vayne.8563:

docMed.7692:

We can go in circles all day on this, but the only truth here is; our opinions and experiences in the game do not make them fact.

We can’t simply take these and translate them across the board to all players and ArenaNet’s handlings as the reason they occurred. My experience, along with many of my friends, has been far different than what you have described as your own, and what you also feel the community feels. Nonetheless, it doesn’t in-turn mean that my experience is how everyone played or didnt play GW2 nor why ArenaNet made the decisions they made. Unless you have some kind of actual factual information (numbers showing drop in players, their opinions captured and summed into sortable reasons, etc), then you’re just speaking in generalities. Personally, I have full ascended gear, but my own motivation has been for the shinies (it’s why I have a legendary too). Also, it’s not like the currently available ascended gear (trinkets) or a portion of it, couldn’t be made available through these means too. It’s simply another way to "play the game as you see fit". It’s not required for anyone to participate in, and it satisfies the PvE’ers looking for an actual challenge that occurs amongst your friends and/or like-minded guildies. I just don’t see how guild missions, which occur in open-world, could ever be scaled or made challenging. Hard content in open-world would only lead to the one’s who care to get it done being angry and upset at the one’s "leaching" their efforts. I just don’t see how it can be designed to humor all skill levels and interest.

You can go in circles all day. The stuff I said about why Anet did what they did was pulled from stuff Anet themselves have said. I’m not making stuff up. I’m notoriously bad at looking up quotes, but I’m pretty good at getting the gist of what people are saying inside Anet at different points.

There was a lot said in November about this, good luck finding it all now, but this isn’t made up stuff. And Anet had no reason to break their word to their fans unless they really felt they had to.

People who are raiders tend to want better gear. Not all of them, but enough of them. Over the years, there have been tons of polls about who raids and who doesn’t raid, and it’s always surprised me how small a percentage of the gaming population actually raids (just as it would likely surprise you what percentage of the WoW population insists on soloing).

Again, I’m not against the current state of the game. I play it, my guild and friends play it, and the first time we go through it gets crushed; we say that was cool, and it gets forgotten about. There’s no sense of actually needing to learn encounters because they are not scaled for casual and hardcore players. 99% of this content can literally be done on a 1/2 arsed first-attempt. That needs to be addressed. Maybe raids isn’t the best solution for all (because of it’s negative representation in the past), but there needs to be progression and wipes; I don’t understand why this is such a "skill-based" marketed game while providing facerolling content.

Regarding your thoughts and generalities as fact; whatever floats your boat. Clearly I cannot sweigh you to stop speaking in generalities, but if your gut tells you it’s truth, it must be!

Theftwind.8976:

The only issue I have with raids as per the WoW example is that it breeds elitism. Then you have what we currently have with the Warrior/Berserker requirements for dugeon “speed runs” but multiplied a hundred fold. Raiders “expect” you to have specific gear, be traited in specific ways, to do things in specific order and so on. When a game gets to that point and I have to play my character the way someone else wants and not the way I want in order to take part in the latest content then it no longer becomes fun.

I agree, definitely no fun in this regard. But that’s also why we as persons and players get to choose who we spend time with. Whether or not there are raids, this type of mentality is common in any and everything we do in and outside of GW2. Some people want more challenging content and to do that it may require x-build or y-talents, etc. There would also be some persons who want to do normal and/or easy modes who group and do it at their own pace. There’s nothing wrong with that either. Everyone gets to choose who they play with, why content would limit players is beyond me – if anything it would put a person surrounded by players more of their own speed and interest.

daimasei.4091:

And when Anet add raids you will finish them, get bored, demand new ones, finish them, get bored, demand new ones, etc, etkittenil you found a new game without raids and move there to ask for raids leaving us, players who bought GW2 to get away from kittenty-raids-games or loyal GW players looking for a quality game like the original, with a lot of unwanted content nobody will do ever, and with a poorly developed game because Anet was to busy creating raids for you to pay attention to the rest of the game.

The thing is: If you love WoW Raids (or from any other of the bazillions of clones out there), WHY THAT HELL ARE YOU HERE ASKING FOR RAIDS? WoW is still online (same with most of their clones) as far as I’m aware.
If raids are truly that awesome, why don’t go and keep playing there?

And no, I’m not asking you to leave GW if you don’t like it or those kitten fanboys always said, I’m legitimately asking why, if raids are so great and there is already hundred of games with that system, why come to GW and ask for raids instead of keep playing in WoW?

Also, this is a F2P game, shinies and aesthetics items belong to the Gem Store. If we we could get shiny weapons by finishing a 10-15 men dungeon then, what would be Anet profit?

Who is asking for WoW raids? I think what most people are asking for is “Elite” content which can be done by a large group of people. This form of “Raiding” was introduced in Guildwars 1. You are simply assuming that “Raiding” would be akin to WoW which is just unsubstantiated. And so what if people get bored with content? People get bored with fractal’s now does that mean Arenanet should remove them? If you played Guildwars 2 because it didn’t have “Raids” you came here for the wrong reasons. No were did the Dev team mention that “Raiding/Elite content” won’t be implemented. It’s just like people who say that they don’t want a level increase and that it defies the manifesto even though Anet stated they will increase the level cap.

The reason people are asking for “Raids” is because of the lack of “Elite” content similiar too what we experienced in Guildwars 1. If you read most raid topics the majority of people who want raid’s liken them to the Elite missions in Guildwars 1. And those who oppose “Raids” simply strawman their position assuming that they are talking about WoW.

Vayne.8563:

docMed.7692:

Vayne.8563:

I still don’t believe people will raid (in bulk) if they don’t get more power out of it. Not that it couldn’t have been this way, but since most people have been trained by other games, they EXPECT more power out of raiding.

Some people, undoubtedly, will raid even for just cosmetic gear, but can you get groups of 20 to do that regularly? I’m thinking not.

This is why Anet ended up introducing ascended gear. Too many people weren’t going to work for cosmetics only. Anet was forced to compromise to keep some people in the game.

It’s a crappy truth, but it doesn’t make it false.

What? Your opinion does not make something truth, no matter how much you believe it.

Anet started this game with the idea that there could be no vertical progression at all. The people would work for skins and nothing else. They said in a couple of interviews that there would be no vertical progression.

And people were leaving the game. So Anet kitten ed off much of its loyal fan base by introducing ascended gear into the fractals, which was vertical progression. A lot of people who loved and supported this game walked away then. There was a significant drop in population at that time.

So why did Anet, knowing this would happen (indeed they said they knew there would be backlash) feel the need to add stats to the new tier of gear? Because people were NOT willing to work at content just for skins. Some were, but not enough. Once they had the stats they wanted, a lot of people were done and stopped playing. The fractals brought some of those people back.

If most people had been willing to work for just cosmetic gear, do you really think Anet would have had to make that change? A change that kitten ed off some of its biggest supporters?

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I “believe” you’ve stated that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

I don’t think they directly called out no vertical progression. Although they did directly state they would focus on horizontal progression ‘just like GW1.’ One would think that it would be difficult to do both, since why would you waste time on horizontal if you have to continually progress vertically.

Nope, I would be horrified if they added raiding into this game. I am an “old” EQ franchise player as well as a GW1 player. I did a LOT of raiding in EQ/EQOA/EQ2 and would hate to see another new grind introduced to this game. If they want to add new challenging content I would highly suggest group elite dungeons, not raiding.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

Kilaelya.1420:

Nope, I would be horrified if they added raiding into this game. I am an “old” EQ franchise player as well as a GW1 player. I did a LOT of raiding in EQ/EQOA/EQ2 and would hate to see another new grind introduced to this game. If they want to add new challenging content I would highly suggest elite dungeons, not raiding.

Well essentially that’s what raiding is “Elite dungeons”, they don’t have to have 40 people on one screen. They can be like what we had in Guildwars 1, I think that’s what most of the “Raiding” community wants. Not everyone wants Guildwars 2 too be like WoW or EQ. If you’ve ever done UW don’t you remember how exciting it was when you or a party member got Dhuum’s Soul Reaper?

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

It was something that was discussed in some of the prelaunch videos. Back when they started releasing the feature specific ones about pillars of the world and such. Might also have been in the original manifesto video. Not that you can find these things anymore. Most have been miraculously removed. Things that make you go hmmmmm

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

It was something that was discussed in some of the prelaunch videos. Back when they started releasing the feature specific ones about pillars of the world and such. Might also have been in the original manifesto video. Not that you can find these things anymore. Most have been miraculously removed. Things that make you go hmmmmm

I think you are simply mistaken here, I just looked at the Manifesto and no one talks about their not being progression so that couldn’t be it. I have these video’s saved on my computer (Catacomb video and all). I also don’t believe Arenanet deleted anything pertaining to this subject. If they did, I think it would have been known by the majority of people.