Guild Wars 2

“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Those who don’t chase around prestigious gear are “just as powerful”. That is a quote from the now-deleted blog post. And yet those who don’t chase Ascended Gear actually aren’t “just as powerful.” It may only be a minor difference, but a difference it is.

Martin The Brave.8731:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

It was something that was discussed in some of the prelaunch videos. Back when they started releasing the feature specific ones about pillars of the world and such. Might also have been in the original manifesto video. Not that you can find these things anymore. Most have been miraculously removed. Things that make you go hmmmmm

I think you are simply mistaken here, I just looked at the Manifesto and no one talks about their not being progression so that couldn’t be it. I have these video’s saved on my computer (Catacomb video and all). I also don’t believe Arenanet deleted anything pertaining to this subject. If they did, I think it would have been known by the majority of people.

I was following this stuff religiously, so I don’t think so. Maybe, always possible.

Yes, some of the videos and blogs have been removed. There has been several discussions about it. And much condemning of Anet going back on their promises.

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am.

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

Huh?

please refer to edited post then respond with better then
“Huh?” which makes you look bad

(dang cellphones)
edit: especially since most of your logic you use is that of someone who is not fully informed of the content of this game

There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains.

again quoting the article mentioned earlier

We’ll never know what went on in ANet staff conferences prior to the release of FotM and Ascended. I’ve seen videos with Colin Johanson talking about Legendary having the same stats as Exotic, which was to be the highest tier. So that was changed at some point. ANet can say they had Ascended planned before launch. That doesn’t mean they did, or that it wasn’t just a contingency plan that they would never use unless they got the “nothing to do, nothing to work towards” backlash that in fact happened. This is immaterial at the moment. Being “right” is the internet’s booby prize.

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again - where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am.

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

Huh?

please refer to edited post then respond with better then
"Huh?" which makes you look bad

(dang cellphones)
edit: especially since most of your logic you use is that of someone who is not fully informed of the content of this game

There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains.

again quoting the article mentioned earlier

I did miss your edited post and also have difficulties following some of your broken grammar. I’ve been friendly this entire time, I’m sorry you have a different viewpoint than me on the current state of the game, but there’s no need to get upset over it and result to insults.

My original post refers to 2000 hours of play and my heavy involvement in PvX (i.e. all aspects of the game). I have participated in many of the open-world events, which my subsequent posts have referenced and pointed out to. I will continue to reply with "Huh?" as I see fit, mostly when I do not understand something.

But if you believe I do not have enough experience to comment on open-world PvE events then I would say you’re incorrect, but that’s just my opinion. If I need to do 100% of the PvE DE’s to actually comment on it, well then you’re probably speaking to only 1-2% of the population in this game, if that, which I also believe is a bit outlandish. In summation, I have experienced a vast majority of open-world PvE DE’s and would consider myself versed enough. This isn’t rocket science we’re talking here.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

It was something that was discussed in some of the prelaunch videos. Back when they started releasing the feature specific ones about pillars of the world and such. Might also have been in the original manifesto video. Not that you can find these things anymore. Most have been miraculously removed. Things that make you go hmmmmm

I think you are simply mistaken here, I just looked at the Manifesto and no one talks about their not being progression so that couldn’t be it. I have these video’s saved on my computer (Catacomb video and all). I also don’t believe Arenanet deleted anything pertaining to this subject. If they did, I think it would have been known by the majority of people.

I was following this stuff religiously, so I don’t think so. Maybe, always possible.

Yes, some of the videos and blogs have been removed. There has been several discussions about it. And much condemning of Anet going back on their promises.

Did those video’s contain the statement “There will be no stat progression” or something akin to that? Just to clarify a bit, what are names of the video’s and blog post you are referring too? Also can you link the conversations in which people condemn Arenanet for this exact reason?

Just to stay on topic here, did you play the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 such as Urgoz or UW? If so what would be the problem of making content similar to these?

I’m a longtime raider from EQ2. While I do miss raiding, I don’t miss scheduling 10+ hours a week for a video game. I’m actually kinda happy that GW2 doesn’t even give us that option, since development time (and rewards systems?) devoted to raiding would come at the expense of other types of content.

With that said, I’m a raider at heart and would probably try raiding in this game if they did implement it. However, I doubt (challenging) raiding would work very well in this game for a couple of reasons. First, unlike trinity games, increasing group sizes doesn’t naturally lead to more coordination. Yeah, you could have different people dealing with different adds/mechanics in this game, but everyone is still responsible for their own survivability, and things like combos and CCs get more jumbled in larger groups. Second, in my experience, gear progression is a critical ingredient for challenging content. Without it, the good guilds will clear the content extremely quickly and(/or) the lesser guilds will never clear it.

AlietteFaye.7316:

“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Those who don’t chase around prestigious gear are “just as powerful”. That is a quote from the now-deleted blog post. And yet those who don’t chase Ascended Gear actually aren’t “just as powerful.” It may only be a minor difference, but a difference it is.

I think this may be a response to me; So I will respond. As I stated before, Arenanet did not state there will be no “Progression”. Which I think the quote makes no claim to do. However I would like to stay on topic and ask you your opinion of Guildwars 1 elite content.

Vayne.8563:

I’d brace myself if I were you. A lot of people came to this game to get away from raiding.

He did it right though. People are against raiding for progression in GW2. If its for skins only I see no issue with Raiding. I’m am 100% against gear grind and 100% for new content.

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am.

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

Huh?

please refer to edited post then respond with better then
“Huh?” which makes you look bad

(dang cellphones)
edit: especially since most of your logic you use is that of someone who is not fully informed of the content of this game

There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains.

again quoting the article mentioned earlier

I did miss your edited post and also have difficulties following some of your broken grammar. I’ve been friendly this entire time, I’m sorry you have a different viewpoint than me on the current state of the game, but there’s no need to get upset over it and result to insults.

My original post refers to 2000 hours of play and my heavy involvement in PvX (i.e. all aspects of the game). I have participated in many of the open-world events, which my subsequent posts have referenced and pointed out to. I will continue to reply with “Huh?” as I see fit, mostly when I do not understand something.

But if you believe I do not have enough experience to comment on open-world PvE events then I would say you’re incorrect, but that’s just my opinion. If I need to do 100% of the PvE DE’s to actually comment on it, well then you’re probably speaking to only 1-2% of the population in this game, if that, which I also believe is a bit outlandish. In summation, I have experienced a vast majority of open-world PvE DE’s and would consider myself versed enough. This isn’t rocket science we’re talking here.

Up to the temple for the starter zones til then, per Anet is less then half of the game. if you are stating this is all the game. I have given proof this is incorect with the quotes I have provided.

From those quotes it is very clear that most of the PvE content is in Orr and beyond the temples.
It is also very clear that raiding is already built into the game, but no one actively pursues in in the number of players required to activate most of the webs.

You state there is no challenge. Yet I give you evidence from Anet that the challenges you seek are already here, but you would rather be nostalgic and want to turn this game into FFXI.

I have provided you with a challenge, but would rather comment on my grammar then my evidence.

Simply to me you are evading. seeking only what suits your desires then what tbe game already has in place.

It will take multiple guilds in a mass group effort, raiding, to meet this challenge I have placed in this thread.

Do you accept this challenge?

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Ordika.9513:

docMed.7692:

Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.

I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.

I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.

Yes I am.

So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?

If so then you have done all the content.

If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect

Huh?

please refer to edited post then respond with better then
“Huh?” which makes you look bad

(dang cellphones)
edit: especially since most of your logic you use is that of someone who is not fully informed of the content of this game

There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains.

again quoting the article mentioned earlier

I did miss your edited post and also have difficulties following some of your broken grammar. I’ve been friendly this entire time, I’m sorry you have a different viewpoint than me on the current state of the game, but there’s no need to get upset over it and result to insults.

My original post refers to 2000 hours of play and my heavy involvement in PvX (i.e. all aspects of the game). I have participated in many of the open-world events, which my subsequent posts have referenced and pointed out to. I will continue to reply with “Huh?” as I see fit, mostly when I do not understand something.

But if you believe I do not have enough experience to comment on open-world PvE events then I would say you’re incorrect, but that’s just my opinion. If I need to do 100% of the PvE DE’s to actually comment on it, well then you’re probably speaking to only 1-2% of the population in this game, if that, which I also believe is a bit outlandish. In summation, I have experienced a vast majority of open-world PvE DE’s and would consider myself versed enough. This isn’t rocket science we’re talking here.

Up to the temple for the starter zones til then, per Anet is less then half of the game. if you are stating this is all the game. I have given proof this is incorect with the quotes I have provided.

From those quotes it is very clear that most of the PvE content is in Orr and beyond the temples.
It is also very clear that raiding is already built into the game, but no one actively pursues in in the number of players required to activate most of the webs.

You state there is no challenge. Yet I give you evidence from Anet that the challenges you seek are already here, but you would rather be nostalgic and want to turn this game into FFXI.

I have provided you with a challenge, but would rather comment on my grammar then my evidence.

Simply to me you are evading. seeking only what suits your desires then what tbe game already has in place.

It will take multiple guilds in a mass group effort, raiding, to meet this challenge I have placed in this thread.

Do you accept this challenge?

When you state “Beyond” the temple’s what are you referring to? If you would, provide the specific “Raid Event’s” you are talking about. I would also like to know how these event’s compare to “Raiding”? Is this content “Zergable”, and if so what challenge can be provided from it given that a large group is running it? Lastly, what incentive is given to actually do these events rather than doing easier events? (Perhaps a specific skin or a lore insight?)

Yea Martin, I was a bit confused by this too. I think he confused me with another poster that commented on FFXI (I’ve barely ever played that game, let alone participated in any of it’s raiding).

I’m also not sure what unseen DE’s he’s referring to...

Martin The Brave.8731:

per Anet you must take and hold the temples and then push deeper into Orr. Per them you will need a large number of people since they state they are “huge events” linked through a web of DEs. You must keep control of key objectives like the temples themselves to make the web reach its end.

Zergable? Since it is open world there is that possibility.

Using guilds and voice chat is the only way to keep so sense of control. To me that is raiding, it is also a challenge to overcome the chaos of Zergs by using guild, commanders and voice chat.

The known incentives are the challenge that is being called out by many including the OP. The unknown incentives new bosses with new rewards which to date have not been unlocked since it required large numbers to get these DE webs to work.

All I have stated is per Anet. I am just restating them. I have given the links and so I am not talk a ton of bull but document statements by Anet staff.

As to which events I am referring since they are a web there is no way to be specific without being in a large group to chart these webs. The main key is large numbers. You will not get the DE webs to work with 10 or even 20 people. you will need more.

No, sorry, but a pre-launch Anet article pertaining to Orr about how the dynamic events work is not evidence supporting undiscovered DE’s.

docMed.7692:

No, sorry, but a pre-launch Anet article pertaining to Orr about how the dynamic events work is not evidence supporting undiscovered DE’s.

How do you know that?

Have you been past the temples with 50+ people in an organized raid.

Have you seen any patch notes stating that teh DE web was removed from Orr.

The answer to those questions is no.

That makes my statement more valid and factual

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

per Anet you must take and hold the temples and then push deeper into Orr. Per them you will need a large number of people since they state they are “huge events” linked through a web of DEs. You must keep control of key objectives like the temples themselves to make the web reach its end.

Zergable? Since it is open world there is that possibility.

Using guilds and voice chat is the only way to keep so sense of control. To me that is raiding, it is also a challenge to overcome the chaos of Zergs by using guild, commanders and voice chat.

The known incentives are the challenge that is being called out by many including the OP. The unknown incentives new bosses with new rewards which to date have not been unlocked since it required large numbers to get these DE webs to work.

All I have stated is per Anet. I am just restating them. I have given the links and so I am not talk a ton of bull but document statements by Anet staff.

As to which events I am referring since they are a web there is no way to be specific without being in a large group to chart these webs. The main key is large numbers. You will not get the DE webs to work with 10 or even 20 people. you will need more.

The “Huge Event’s” which I think they are implying are the Meta Event’s which are mostly “Zerged” on my server. Certainly, there is some playable content held within this chain. But the key problem is the ability to “Zerg” it, most Group events in orr only require at least 7 people to be efficiently done. Although Meta event’s require a bit more people, but usually instead of actually getting difficult content it get’s dumbed down by the enormous amount of people doing the content with you.

There is no need to use any type of cooperation when the sheer amount of players makes the content difficulty superfluous. At a Meta Event like Melandru I can literally autoattack in one area without moving. If the only incentive was indeed difficulty as you state then that would be completely ruined.

Also it seems as if you are stating that these chains have not been done. I’ll ask you again what are the names of the events? I remember there were chain event’s in the Straits, but those weren’t anything special. But thats back in the day when people use to actually do them.

I had a thread in the dungeon forum of designing your own raid if GW2’s was to have one. This was my idea for a GW2 Raid

Design- For design of a raid i personally wouldnt enjoy long raids, in my mind i would rather have multiple shorter ones that are part of a set. If you played wow gruuls layers was short and to the point, had 2 bosses and minimal trash and was a good example. No one enjoys difficult trash as its always unrewarding in every game, not to say it wont in gw2 but if you have ever done any dungeon before you know its the truth. Multiple little raids allow better room for pugs to form and break up time commitments and you can have a “Raid” be a set of raid dungeons allowing things to be broken up.

Loot- The key to a raid is to not load all the rewards at the end. Raids should be designed with the thought you wont complete them initially thus means each boss needs to be rewarding not just completing the whole raid is the rewarding part, not to say you cant have a bonus to completing it but it shouldnt be the bulk of rewards. In my mind and something i always wanted in WoW was rather then LFR , Normal, Heroic access better stated gear is that it should offer same stat wise gear but the higher difficulty offered more ornate gear or different looking gear.

Progression- Having progression without stat progression means resistance, im sure some dont want any gear progression but if its within the raid and only the raid then thats fine in my book. Fractals have agony resist so the new raid should require resist at higher difficulties. As to how that resist is gained is a whole other discussion . My mind there are two ways of doing this, either dropping new gear type that is equal to ascended gear in term of stats but allows a new resist infusion, making it some sort of permanent buff, or new infusions can be purchased with the new token. You also can progress this in the opposite way by having for example a weapons carry a buff specific to the dungeon that creates a debuff needed for fights and would not impact agony resist.

Difficulty- We learned from fractals that to many levels make them meaningless , the difference between 16-17 is minimal and not noticeable. The biggest noticeable difference in fractals is every 10 levels and past a certain point there is no point to progress higher in fractals. My vote would be to limit the amount of difficulties available down to 5, this adds more meaning and more challenge. Not just adding health or damage but rather mechanics. If each level of difficulty added a new mechanic to a boss this would add to the challenge in a good way rather then scaling #’s up and allows most people to do lvl 1.

Size- I always felt 10 was a good # of people but thats me, i could see 5 and i could see more then 10. But i feel personally somewhere between 7-10 is a good size, 8 may be an odd group size but its enough to allow more things to happen that cant in a small group size but not to big.

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

No, sorry, but a pre-launch Anet article pertaining to Orr about how the dynamic events work is not evidence supporting undiscovered DE’s.

How do you know that?

Have you been past the temples with 50+ people in an organized raid.

Have you seen any patch notes stating that teh DE web was removed from Orr.

The answer to those questions is no.

That makes my statement more valid and factual

50+ people? This was easily done at launch and with the revamp in January, 2013. In fact, overflow was a huge issue at points during these times. Sorry, but again, all of the Orr DE’s have been uncovered and there is no super-mega DE event that requires massive groups of people to turn over to trigger. It’s not up to me to prove it to you, nor will I try. We should nonetheless remain on the point of this thread, which is to provide challenging PvE content, which I would not consider simply coordinating VOIP chat for a zerg-fest remotelychallenging.

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Those who don’t chase around prestigious gear are “just as powerful”. That is a quote from the now-deleted blog post. And yet those who don’t chase Ascended Gear actually aren’t “just as powerful.” It may only be a minor difference, but a difference it is.

I think this may be a response to me; So I will respond. As I stated before, Arenanet did not state there will be no “Progression”. Which I think the quote makes no claim to do. However I would like to stay on topic and ask you your opinion of Guildwars 1 elite content.

Here’s another quote:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
That doesn’t sound like no gear progression to you? Saying that items that take longer to get are only differentiated by visual appearance and NOT by stats?

Anyway. I liked the GW1 Elite Content, and I agree that GW2 does need some content that is actually difficult. I don’t think it has to be a raid in the typical sense with a large amount of players. It can just be a dungeon that’s obviously harder and for the people looking for an actual challenge. And I don’t mean numbers, I mean mechanics that you have to follow and if even one person messes up their designated part, it’s a wipe. Wiping and learning is what makes an encounter memorable and enjoyable to me. It’s something that you overcome, not stumble past and shrug off.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Those who don’t chase around prestigious gear are “just as powerful”. That is a quote from the now-deleted blog post. And yet those who don’t chase Ascended Gear actually aren’t “just as powerful.” It may only be a minor difference, but a difference it is.

I think this may be a response to me; So I will respond. As I stated before, Arenanet did not state there will be no “Progression”. Which I think the quote makes no claim to do. However I would like to stay on topic and ask you your opinion of Guildwars 1 elite content.

Here’s another quote:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
That doesn’t sound like no gear progression to you? Saying that items that take longer to get are only differentiated by visual appearance and NOT by stats?

Anyway. I liked the GW1 Elite Content, and I agree that GW2 does need some content that is actually difficult. I don’t think it has to be a raid in the typical sense with a large amount of players. It can just be a dungeon that’s obviously harder and for the people looking for an actual challenge. And I don’t mean numbers, I mean mechanics that you have to follow and if even one person messes up their designated part, it’s a wipe. Wiping and learning is what makes an encounter memorable and enjoyable to me. It’s something that you overcome, not stumble past and shrug off.

No that specific quote is talking about the the rarity of an item and Arenanet’s Anti-Grind Philosophy. In other word’s people who spend time to acquire a specific “Rare” item such as a legendary will not have a statistical advantage over the average player who doesn’t want that item. As long as item’s that have better stats are obtainable by “Average” players then it doesn’t contradict this quote. Which is actually going on in the game currently, Ascended Gear is easily obtained by “Average” player through many different avenues. What this quote does show us however is that Arenanet has been telling the truth (At least pertaining to this topic)

You state that: " I don’t think it has to be a raid in the typical sense -dungeon that’s obviously harder" This however would not be “Raids” this would be like Hardmode from Guildwars 1. Why can’t we simply have what we had in Guildwars 1? I mean what genuine Guildwars 1 player would deny the chance of playing something similar to TD or UW?

Martin The Brave.8731:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Martin The Brave.8731:

This statement by Mike O’ Brien seems to be quite the opposite of what you are claiming here:

“I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PVE and PVP” – Mike

" GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike

" GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game." – Mike

However regardless of these statement’s, I believe you’ve state that “Raiding” was comprised of a “Smaller” section of the community. I would like to ask you: based on what MMO do you draw this assessment? And why exactly would that matter in Guildwars 2, for all we know currently “Raiding/Elite” content could be done by the majority players. If Arenanet want’s to make a game for the majority of their players I see no reason to have both “Elite” content and having “Most” players to be able to do it.

To be fair, those statements were made in response to all of the backlash from players regarding the release of Ascended Gear. Many people felt and still feel that those statements go directly against what ArenaNet originally marketed the game as.

Yes they were made after, but keep in mind that Arenanet never stated that there would be no vertical progression. People just assumed that it wouldn’t be there, and there lies the problem. Keep in mind what Mike is saying here: “I hope we’ve been clear” which seems to affirm the idea that they’ve never stated that “Progression” wont be implemented.

I am going to assume that you weren’t following the game very closely before launch. There were definitely mentions of no progression, and I cannot reference back to them because ArenaNet has literally deleted all of the records containing such.

You’ve assumed wrong, I started playing Guildwars 1 when Factions came out and have been hooked too the company ever since. When I saw the announcement of Guildwars 2 on the frontpage of Guildwars 1 login screen I have been reading almost every detail of this game. And never once did I ever see an article about not implementing “Progression”. And since you have no evidence to support your claim as of now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to take your word for it. (Not being snotty).

It was something that was discussed in some of the prelaunch videos. Back when they started releasing the feature specific ones about pillars of the world and such. Might also have been in the original manifesto video. Not that you can find these things anymore. Most have been miraculously removed. Things that make you go hmmmmm

I think you are simply mistaken here, I just looked at the Manifesto and no one talks about their not being progression so that couldn’t be it. I have these video’s saved on my computer (Catacomb video and all). I also don’t believe Arenanet deleted anything pertaining to this subject. If they did, I think it would have been known by the majority of people.

I was following this stuff religiously, so I don’t think so. Maybe, always possible.

Yes, some of the videos and blogs have been removed. There has been several discussions about it. And much condemning of Anet going back on their promises.

Did those video’s contain the statement “There will be no stat progression” or something akin to that? Just to clarify a bit, what are names of the video’s and blog post you are referring too? Also can you link the conversations in which people condemn Arenanet for this exact reason?

Just to stay on topic here, did you play the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 such as Urgoz or UW? If so what would be the problem of making content similar to these?

I never pay attention to names. Honestly so much crap passes through my life thakittens hard to keep track of everything. I’ll see if I can find things. If not, oh well. It’s a moot point at this period in time anyway.

Yes, I did Urgoz, The Deep, UW, FoW, DoA, etc. Got all the titles in my HoM to prove it. I actually have no issue with having such things in this game. I believe in my previous posts I actually suggest/ask for it. Not just in this thread either. I would like to see the return of such things (although not the kitten speed clear easy modes that they had near the end).

(Lanfear)

You don’t have to prove anything to me, anyway I find it great that you would like to see the return of something similar to these missions. I think all Guildwars 1 should champion this cause; Because at the end of the day what we did in Guildwars 1 was “Raiding” and it was fun.

P.S – I don’t know how to quote..

Martin The Brave.8731:

The “Huge Event’s” which I think they are implying are the Meta Event’s which are mostly “Zerged” on my server. Certainly, there is some playable content held within this chain. But the key problem is the ability to “Zerg” it, most Group events in orr only require at least 7 people to be efficiently done. Although Meta event’s require a bit more people, but usually instead of actually getting difficult content it get’s dumbed down by the enormous amount of people doing the content with you.

There is no need to use any type of cooperation when the sheer amount of players makes the content difficulty superfluous. At a Meta Event like Melandru I can literally autoattack in one area without moving. If the only incentive was indeed difficulty as you state then that would be completely ruined.

Also it seems as if you are stating that these chains have not been done. I’ll ask you again what are the names of the events? I remember there were chain event’s in the Straits, but those weren’t anything special. But thats back in the day when people use to actually do them.

docMed.7692:

50+ people? This was easily done at launch and with the revamp in January, 2013. In fact, overflow was a huge issue at points during these times. Sorry, but again, all of the Orr DE’s have been uncovered and there is no super-mega DE event that requires massive groups of people to turn over to trigger. It’s not up to me to prove it to you, nor will I try. We should nonetheless remain on the point of this thread, which is to provide challenging PvE content, which I would not consider simply coordinating VOIP chat for a zerg-fest remotelychallenging.

Well I must say on my server they have no idea what I am talking about. It is nice to finally talk with someone who does know and has been to what I have been referring too.

It saddens me to hear that my hopes for exciting challenging content in this area is not going to happen.

Since my server has not pursued this area and I have yet to find good documentation of people charting the Orr DE webs I wish I could answer your question but I can not.
Does this invalidate my believes? Maybe.

It appears for me to know this I would have to find a new server and guilds that are not instanced center to the point of not even knowing that “DE” means Dynamic Events.

I am sorry that you find that PvE area unchallengeable at this time. Does that validate your desire to turn this game into a FFIX or WoW clone? No it does not.

I am all for raiding, but having come from EverQuest and seeing that open world raiding works and is not damaged by extra people coming along or around.

I am fully against more instanced content. I feel you should be just asking for more challenging open world content and leave it at that. In that I would support you.

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

The “Huge Event’s” which I think they are implying are the Meta Event’s which are mostly “Zerged” on my server. Certainly, there is some playable content held within this chain. But the key problem is the ability to “Zerg” it, most Group events in orr only require at least 7 people to be efficiently done. Although Meta event’s require a bit more people, but usually instead of actually getting difficult content it get’s dumbed down by the enormous amount of people doing the content with you.

There is no need to use any type of cooperation when the sheer amount of players makes the content difficulty superfluous. At a Meta Event like Melandru I can literally autoattack in one area without moving. If the only incentive was indeed difficulty as you state then that would be completely ruined.

Also it seems as if you are stating that these chains have not been done. I’ll ask you again what are the names of the events? I remember there were chain event’s in the Straits, but those weren’t anything special. But thats back in the day when people use to actually do them.

docMed.7692:

50+ people? This was easily done at launch and with the revamp in January, 2013. In fact, overflow was a huge issue at points during these times. Sorry, but again, all of the Orr DE’s have been uncovered and there is no super-mega DE event that requires massive groups of people to turn over to trigger. It’s not up to me to prove it to you, nor will I try. We should nonetheless remain on the point of this thread, which is to provide challenging PvE content, which I would not consider simply coordinating VOIP chat for a zerg-fest remotelychallenging.

Well I must say on my server they have no idea what I am talking about. It is nice to finally talk with someone who does know and has been to what I have been referring too.

It saddens me to hear that my hopes for exciting challenging content in this area is not going to happen.

Since my server has not pursued this area and I have yet to find good documentation of people charting the Orr DE webs I wish I could answer your question but I can not.
Does this invalidate my believes? Maybe.

It appears for me to know this I would have to find a new server and guilds that are not instanced center to the point of not even knowing that “DE” means Dynamic Events.

I am sorry that you find that PvE area unchallengeable at this time. Does that validate your desire to turn this game into a FFIX or WoW clone? No it does not.

I am all for raiding, but having come from EverQuest and seeing that open world raiding works and is not damaged by extra people coming along or around.

I am fully against more instanced content. I feel you should be just asking for more challenging open world content and leave it at that. In that I would support you.

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

docMed.7692:

Vayne.8563:

docMed.7692:

We can go in circles all day on this, but the only truth here is; our opinions and experiences in the game do not make them fact.

We can’t simply take these and translate them across the board to all players and ArenaNet’s handlings as the reason they occurred. My experience, along with many of my friends, has been far different than what you have described as your own, and what you also feel the community feels. Nonetheless, it doesn’t in-turn mean that my experience is how everyone played or didnt play GW2 nor why ArenaNet made the decisions they made. Unless you have some kind of actual factual information (numbers showing drop in players, their opinions captured and summed into sortable reasons, etc), then you’re just speaking in generalities. Personally, I have full ascended gear, but my own motivation has been for the shinies (it’s why I have a legendary too). Also, it’s not like the currently available ascended gear (trinkets) or a portion of it, couldn’t be made available through these means too. It’s simply another way to “play the game as you see fit”. It’s not required for anyone to participate in, and it satisfies the PvE’ers looking for an actual challenge that occurs amongst your friends and/or like-minded guildies. I just don’t see how guild missions, which occur in open-world, could ever be scaled or made challenging. Hard content in open-world would only lead to the one’s who care to get it done being angry and upset at the one’s “leaching” their efforts. I just don’t see how it can be designed to humor all skill levels and interest.

You can go in circles all day. The stuff I said about why Anet did what they did was pulled from stuff Anet themselves have said. I’m not making stuff up. I’m notoriously bad at looking up quotes, but I’m pretty good at getting the gist of what people are saying inside Anet at different points.

There was a lot said in November about this, good luck finding it all now, but this isn’t made up stuff. And Anet had no reason to break their word to their fans unless they really felt they had to.

People who are raiders tend to want better gear. Not all of them, but enough of them. Over the years, there have been tons of polls about who raids and who doesn’t raid, and it’s always surprised me how small a percentage of the gaming population actually raids (just as it would likely surprise you what percentage of the WoW population insists on soloing).

Again, I’m not against the current state of the game. I play it, my guild and friends play it, and the first time we go through it gets crushed; we say that was cool, and it gets forgotten about. There’s no sense of actually needing to learn encounters because they are not scaled for casual and hardcore players. 99% of this content can literally be done on a 1/2 arsed first-attempt. That needs to be addressed. Maybe raids isn’t the best solution for all (because of it’s negative representation in the past), but there needs to be progression and wipes; I don’t understand why this is such a “skill-based” marketed game while providing facerolling content.

Regarding your thoughts and generalities as fact; whatever floats your boat. Clearly I cannot sweigh you to stop speaking in generalities, but if your gut tells you it’s truth, it must be!

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Vayne.8563:

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne.8563:

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.

But that game had healers. That’s what makes this different.

Unless Anet finds ways to make it so the entire exercise isnt’ just a bit DPS party, those instances will be completely meaningless. That means you can probably add MORE challenge with less people. It’s much harder to balance the DPS needed in an elite instance, so everyone will just end up being zerker warriors and we can go home. Not a party I’m likely to attend.

Vayne.8563:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne.8563:

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.

But that game had healers. That’s what makes this different.

Unless Anet finds ways to make it so the entire exercise isnt’ just a bit DPS party, those instances will be completely meaningless. That means you can probably add MORE challenge with less people. It’s much harder to balance the DPS needed in an elite instance, so everyone will just end up being zerker warriors and we can go home. Not a party I’m likely to attend.

You should check out guild puzzles. Those types of mechanics, with some bosses thrown in, and kept to a 10-12 person style dungeon (i.e. “raid”) on a weekly timer would provide for some very cool encounters.

docMed.7692:

Vayne.8563:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne.8563:

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.

But that game had healers. That’s what makes this different.

Unless Anet finds ways to make it so the entire exercise isnt’ just a bit DPS party, those instances will be completely meaningless. That means you can probably add MORE challenge with less people. It’s much harder to balance the DPS needed in an elite instance, so everyone will just end up being zerker warriors and we can go home. Not a party I’m likely to attend.

You should check out guild puzzles. Those types of mechanics, with some bosses thrown in, and kept to a 10-12 person style dungeon (i.e. “raid”) on a weekly timer would provide for some very cool encounters.

We’re working on unlocking them now.

Vayne.8563:

…but having seen what Rift did with raids…they were pretty much the way to advance.

can you elaborate please?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Vayne.8563:

…but having seen what Rift did with raids…they were pretty much the way to advance.

can you elaborate please?

Rift, when I played it, which was when it started, had one path of progression and that was through raids. You had an epic quest chain that led through every single dungeon and culminated in a raid. It was the only epic quest chain in the game.

The only way to get better gear was to do dungeons, to get the gear you needed to do raids. That was what you had to do. Otherwise, you could hang around at level 50 (the max level at launch) do the same daily quests every single day, and the monthly event which was more dailies for a new monthly currency. You could collect shinies which were just a collection thing, sort of a mini-game.

But the problem was the rewards for doing rifts back then (read events) was planarite. Everyone I knew had hit their planarite cap. There was nothing left to buy. So people stopped doing Rifts and more importantly the zone wide events which disrupted zones several times a night. Without people doing them, at least on my server, they couldn’t be beaten at all but there was nothing else to do. It wasn’t like Guild Wars 2 with dynamic events. Your quests were Rifts. It’s almost the situation with karma, except that I haven’t hit the karma cap and there’s still stuff I can spend Karma on. Not so with planarite at that time.

If you didn’t want to PvP (another problem with the game since a person starting had NO CHANCE against someone tier 6 and they were all lumped in together) you had nothing to do but dungeons, and when you outgeared them, they become meaningless. There was no scaling. So the only thing left was raids. That was it. You raided, or you went home.

Yeah, you could repeat the daily every day for an hour but really there was nothing left.

In Guild Wars 2, as much as people complain about no end game and dungeons, at least the dungeons scale. That wasn’t true in Rift. Going back to an early easier dungeon (when I played) was pretty much pointless. I could solo all of the early ones, because nothing in them could hurt me at all. It was sorta silly.

So yeah, raid or go home.

Just as I was leaving, they introduced single and two person instances. The problem is, back then anyway, they didn’t scale, so that I was OP for them with my gear. There was no point to doing them. Sure, once or twice to see them and you’re done.

So again, raids were the focus of the game….but I wasn’t a raider.

- I would like to have a raid with 10 people divide into 2 groups of 5, each group will start at different locations and each group during the process have to beat some bosses, puzzles, etc… to help the other group process.
- Or 2 group compete with each others who will reach the goal first, they can try to beat the bonus bosses to slow down the other.

Vayne.8563:

Rift, when I played it, which was when it started, had one path of progression and that was through raids. You had an epic quest chain that led through every single dungeon and culminated in a raid. It was the only epic quest chain in the game.

-snip-

So again, raids were the focus of the game….but I wasn’t a raider.

ok this sounds horrible, I downloaded Rift just a few hours ago but after reading this… meh. I really love Anets decision not to implement Raids, GW2 still has difficult carrot-content in form of fractals but I guess the hardcore people burned already through it like they do in every Raid-centric game. You can’t win as a developer since it takes much more time to create a dungeon than to burn through it.

the way I would like to see raid-like activities implemented in GW2:

• a raid of any size (a guild or even a single player with people around – no guild required!!) can spawn one of the worldbosses whenever the standard-spawn is over
• the area around get’s locked so no one can enter or leave – if you die you’ll have to wait until somebody picks you up or the whole group wipes and the battle is lost
• the encounter is much harder than on casual mode and rewards are encounter-specific skins

So in a way it works like guild missions, but no guild is required. Every player around can participate if he is in that area at the moment the guild spawns the battle. If a guild want’s to be alone, they have to spawn the dragon when no one else is around (or simply don’t rezz the others – kind of cruel though).

I don’t have a good solution that people don’t farm this all day long. Perhaps a player can only participate in such a battle twice a day. The system knows if you were there that day and the boss becomes invulnerable to that person.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Vayne.8563:

Rift, when I played it, which was when it started, had one path of progression and that was through raids. You had an epic quest chain that led through every single dungeon and culminated in a raid. It was the only epic quest chain in the game.

-snip-

So again, raids were the focus of the game….but I wasn’t a raider.

ok this sounds horrible, I downloaded Rift just a few hours ago but after reading this… meh. I really love Anets decision not to implement Raids, GW2 still has difficult carrot-content in form of fractals but I guess the hardcore people burned already through it like they do in every Raid-centric game. You can’t win as a developer since it takes much more time to create a dungeon than to burn through it.

the way I would like to see raid-like activities implemented in GW2:

• a raid of any size (a guild or even a single player with people around – no guild required!!) can spawn one of the worldbosses whenever the standard-spawn is over
• the area around get’s locked so no one can enter or leave – if you die you’ll have to wait until somebody picks you up or the whole group wipes and the battle is lost
• the encounter is much harder than on casual mode and rewards are encounter-specific skins

So in a way it works like guild missions, but no guild is required. Every player around can participate if he is in that area at the moment the guild spawns the battle. If a guild want’s to be alone, they have to spawn the dragon when no one else is around (or simply don’t rezz the others – kind of cruel though).

I don’t have a good solution that people don’t farm this all day long. Perhaps a player can only participate in such a battle twice a day. The system knows if you were there that day and the boss becomes invulnerable to that person.

Rift may have changed. It’s been a very long time since I played it. But I did have contact with someone who was very turned off by the expansion because of the inordinate amount of grind necessary to get himself raid ready.

He was a big Rift fan until Storm Legion came out, after which he didn’t have quite as much time and his guild leveled without him. They were raiding without him and the amount of time it would have taken him to catch up to them was prohibitive.

So it sounds like a typical gear-grind MMO.

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

They already have a ton of instanced content… pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.

I would love to see a sixth type of guild mission based around the minidungeon (Vexa’s Lab/Font of Rhand) model they have in place now – an instanced path (that anyone on the guild mission could enter) that looks more like a traditional dungeon (or raid) and where the primary goal is to kill a boss with complex mechanics. They could even give the guild mission leader the option of whether or not to allow people from outside the guild to participate (the quaggan guild challenge has a mechanic like this now).

There is only one thing that I absolutely DO NOT want in the game – raids that requre exactly X (10, 25, 40, etc) number of people to run. This means often having to leave people out, which I believe is the single biggest flaw with raiding in other games (and why I will never raid in that kind of setting again).

Vayne.8563:

Rift may have changed. It’s been a very long time since I played it. But I did have contact with someone who was very turned off by the expansion because of the inordinate amount of grind necessary to get himself raid ready.

He was a big Rift fan until Storm Legion came out, after which he didn’t have quite as much time and his guild leveled without him. They were raiding without him and the amount of time it would have taken him to catch up to them was prohibitive.

So it sounds like a typical gear-grind MMO.

I haven’t played Rift in quite some time, either. That said, looking at the design decisions TW made, it seemed like the planning process was: "Let’s copy everything about WoW, combat mechanics, huge numbers of skills, dual factions, global cooldowns, raid progression, daily quests, etc. OK, now we need some innovation. Let’s put in rifts and invasions, and we’ll let players have multiple sub-classes.

Until the discussion above about planarite came up, I’d forgotten about it. It’s kind of eerie how much its eventual uselessness resembles Karma in GW2.

Oh, it looks like you were right about mounts in GW2.

While I don’t particularly like the idea, I can see GW2 added > 5 man content simply because GW1 had it. I don’t think the game will ever add raiding of the style that WoW or Rift has, but I could definitely see GW1 style 10-12 people groups.

The primary difference between the two being that raids in WoW and Rift are pretty much celebrated in their design, being unique instances that take for freaking ever. GW1, on the other hand, just… did it. It’s like “Ok, this place requires 12 people. Its no more special or longer than any other mission or instance, but you need 12 people to get through it. Bye!”

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

They already have a ton of instanced content… pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.

There is much now because people don’t wish to leave thier comfort zone. they act like instances is all this gvame has to offer which is not true.
Could they improve the other aspects of the game? yes
But inreasing instances in itself would break the mold Anet made to cater to a vast spectrum of playing styles.

No raiding, if it was introduced at beginning it would be ok, but since then most of the good players left and some easiest of easiest dungeons can get to 1h+ with pug. (guild groups in this game is almost same as pug, you just know who to avoid better)

Vayne.8563:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne.8563:

See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.

It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.

Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.

But that game had healers. That’s what makes this different.

Unless Anet finds ways to make it so the entire exercise isnt’ just a bit DPS party, those instances will be completely meaningless. That means you can probably add MORE challenge with less people. It’s much harder to balance the DPS needed in an elite instance, so everyone will just end up being zerker warriors and we can go home. Not a party I’m likely to attend.

This is nothing more than pure speculation on your part correct? If the mechanic’s within the “Raid” worked to somehow counteract a “Big” DPS party then this is not a concern. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a difficult task to accomplish; and to claim otherwise is just nitpicking. I would also like to stress that while Guildwars 1 did have a healer profession the game didn’t seem to follow the tradition “Trinity”; You didn’t need a tank or control.

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

They already have a ton of instanced content… pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.

There is much now because people don’t wish to leave thier comfort zone. they act like instances is all this gvame has to offer which is not true.
Could they improve the other aspects of the game? yes
But inreasing instances in itself would break the mold Anet made to cater to a vast spectrum of playing styles.

Break what mold? Arenanet never stated that this game was to cater exclusively to open world. I see no reason Arenanet can’t make Instanced and Non Instanced content. You are acting as if “Instanced” content is bad; that just seems a bit ludicrous. It seems counterintuitive for Arenanet to work solely on open world content as the first game they made was all about “Instanced” content.

Tolmos.8395:

While I don’t particularly like the idea, I can see GW2 added > 5 man content simply because GW1 had it. I don’t think the game will ever add raiding of the style that WoW or Rift has, but I could definitely see GW1 style 10-12 people groups.

The primary difference between the two being that raids in WoW and Rift are pretty much celebrated in their design, being unique instances that take for freaking ever. GW1, on the other hand, just… did it. It’s like “Ok, this place requires 12 people. Its no more special or longer than any other mission or instance, but you need 12 people to get through it. Bye!”

What are you talking about? All the “Elite” missions in Guildwars 1 were both longer and harder than the “Norm”. On top of that all of the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 had hardmode. The first time I ran Urgoz on hardmode it took me atleast an hour and we didn’t even finish. The “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 was very similiar to modern mmo “Raids”. You had a large group, some trash and some bosses, that seems to be the formula for most “Raids”.

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

Martin The Brave.8731:

Tolmos.8395:

While I don’t particularly like the idea, I can see GW2 added > 5 man content simply because GW1 had it. I don’t think the game will ever add raiding of the style that WoW or Rift has, but I could definitely see GW1 style 10-12 people groups.

The primary difference between the two being that raids in WoW and Rift are pretty much celebrated in their design, being unique instances that take for freaking ever. GW1, on the other hand, just… did it. It’s like “Ok, this place requires 12 people. Its no more special or longer than any other mission or instance, but you need 12 people to get through it. Bye!”

What are you talking about? All the “Elite” missions in Guildwars 1 were both longer and harder than the “Norm”. On top of that all of the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 had hardmode. The first time I ran Urgoz on hardmode it took me atleast an hour and we didn’t even finish. The “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 was very similiar to modern mmo “Raids”. You had a large group, some trash and some bosses, that seems to be the formula for most “Raids”.

Yes, Urgoz and the Deep were the only 12 person Elite instances. The others were all 8. The main difference between Urgoz/Deep and a Raid is/was the desirable drops. Raids pretty much award “better” gear, whereas the Zodiac Skins in those instances had no better stats than a drop from the rest of the max-level game. Also, those Zodiac skins could drop from any mob in the instance, or from random chests (darn, I miss chest runs) as well as from Urgoz’ or Kanaxai’s chest.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Tolmos.8395:

While I don’t particularly like the idea, I can see GW2 added > 5 man content simply because GW1 had it. I don’t think the game will ever add raiding of the style that WoW or Rift has, but I could definitely see GW1 style 10-12 people groups.

The primary difference between the two being that raids in WoW and Rift are pretty much celebrated in their design, being unique instances that take for freaking ever. GW1, on the other hand, just… did it. It’s like “Ok, this place requires 12 people. Its no more special or longer than any other mission or instance, but you need 12 people to get through it. Bye!”

What are you talking about? All the “Elite” missions in Guildwars 1 were both longer and harder than the “Norm”. On top of that all of the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 had hardmode. The first time I ran Urgoz on hardmode it took me atleast an hour and we didn’t even finish. The “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 was very similiar to modern mmo “Raids”. You had a large group, some trash and some bosses, that seems to be the formula for most “Raids”.

The difference in time and difficulty really wasn’t so much that I noticed it, tbh. :-\ I farmed The Deep pretty regularly and it felt about the same as the rest of the game, except I had 4 more players with me. And I liked that a lot.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

They already have a ton of instanced content… pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.

There is much now because people don’t wish to leave thier comfort zone. they act like instances is all this gvame has to offer which is not true.
Could they improve the other aspects of the game? yes
But inreasing instances in itself would break the mold Anet made to cater to a vast spectrum of playing styles.

Break what mold? Arenanet never stated that this game was to cater exclusively to open world. I see no reason Arenanet can’t make Instanced and Non Instanced content. You are acting as if “Instanced” content is bad; that just seems a bit ludicrous. It seems counterintuitive for Arenanet to work solely on open world content as the first game they made was all about “Instanced” content.

As I stated Anet designed the game to suit many playing styles. At this time there has been more and more instanced content released then changes to open world.
Nearly every special event or holiday has a 5-man instance with cheese open world content.
Instanced content caters more to those that seek to have total control over what is going on and/or elitist. This segregates those like myself that don’t wish to be forced into groups like that.
I wish to have full freedom to move and go as I please, which is open world content.
Can they improve open world and should they? Yes.
People come into this game form other games where instances was the end game.
Anet as made it clear the that end-game for GW2 is the open world content.
So I am against more instanced content and always will be.
I have been in elites guild and raids. I have been in open world raids. I had more fun in the latter.
Gaining control over chaos is much more fun and challenging then have a pre-charted out course that everyone must do or get removed from the group.

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the "Elite" content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those "Raid’s" allowed players to experience "Harder" content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.

Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.

They already have a ton of instanced content... pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.

There is much now because people don’t wish to leave thier comfort zone. they act like instances is all this gvame has to offer which is not true.
Could they improve the other aspects of the game? yes
But inreasing instances in itself would break the mold Anet made to cater to a vast spectrum of playing styles.

Break what mold? Arenanet never stated that this game was to cater exclusively to open world. I see no reason Arenanet can’t make Instanced and Non Instanced content. You are acting as if "Instanced" content is bad; that just seems a bit ludicrous. It seems counterintuitive for Arenanet to work solely on open world content as the first game they made was all about "Instanced" content.

As I stated Anet designed the game to suit many playing styles. At this time there has been more and more instanced content released then changes to open world.
Nearly every special event or holiday has a 5-man instance with cheese open world content.
Instanced content caters more to those that seek to have total control over what is going on and/or elitist. This segregates those like myself that don’t wish to be forced into groups like that.
I wish to have full freedom to move and go as I please, which is open world content.
Can the improve open world and should they? Yes.
People come into this game form other games where instances was the end game.
Anet as made it clear the that end-game for GW2 is the open world content.
So I am against more instanced content and always will be.
I have been in elites guild and raids. I have been in open world raids. I had more fun in the latter.
Gaining control over chaos is much more fun and challenging this have a pre-charted out course that everyone must do or get removed from the group.

I have to disagree here. Micro-managing an immesurable community that may or may not participate in open-world content does not seem the least bit enjoyable to me. And again, the content would not be designed to force you into this large-dungeon (i.e. raid) - only those who wanted to work towards the achievements and/or cosmetic rewards, and/or participate in challening content with their semi-large group of friends/guildies, would apply. Open-world content would still be developed and iterated upon just as ArenaNet has continued to do so since launch, so please stop looking at this as instance vs open-world; it’s more "discuss a solution to non-challenging content", which again, is not possible nor would anyone be interested in doing in open-world given the current mechanics, play interest, reliability, timeliness, etc. Why would ArenaNet implement hardcore/chalenging open-world content that in-turn would require leaders to coordinate all the variables of various skill-levels and/or person(s) showing up or leaving in the middle of? Seems a bit unreasonable to me.

docMed.7692:

s large-dungeon (i.e. raid) – only those who wanted to work towards the achievements and/or cosmetic rewards, and/or participate in challening content with their semi-large group of friends/guildies, would apply.

This is how I see this statement:

A video game elitist is an individual who only socializes with others that they deem worthy. Within video games they create a clique (commonly a guild or clan) and only allow those individuals to participate in their activities while viewing themselves better than everyone else in the society.

An elitist will brag about themselves, they do not put down others openly, they must always be heard, and always correct (in their minds) – an elitist will help others just so that they receive attention/compliments to assure themselves that they are superior, the whole idea of “stroking the ego.” This pretty much sums up what a true elitist is but do not confuse this with a “fake” elitist.

http://gamingpsych.blogspot.com/2010/12/video-game-elitist.html

The wording made by the OP screams of this. This thread is not a thread to improve content but to get Anet to make it easier for elitist to become more so in this game.

Again. Many like myself left other game to come this this to get away from elitism. Instanced content no matter the size is and elitist mentality and should not be made welcome. Especially in a game that is suppose to place the community over the single person or group.

Again I state I am fully against any increase in instanced content.

Will they add this content? maybe.

Will we see elitism more and more in this game? Yes. It is already here and getting worse.

I am done with this thread.