Guild Wars 2

Krosslite.1950:

docMed.7692:

s large-dungeon (i.e. raid) - only those who wanted to work towards the achievements and/or cosmetic rewards, and/or participate in challening content with their semi-large group of friends/guildies, would apply.

This is how I see this statement:

A video game elitist is an individual who only socializes with others that they deem worthy. Within video games they create a clique (commonly a guild or clan) and only allow those individuals to participate in their activities while viewing themselves better than everyone else in the society.

An elitist will brag about themselves, they do not put down others openly, they must always be heard, and always correct (in their minds) - an elitist will help others just so that they receive attention/compliments to assure themselves that they are superior, the whole idea of "stroking the ego." This pretty much sums up what a true elitist is but do not confuse this with a “fake” elitist.

http://gamingpsych.blogspot.com/2010/12/video-game-elitist.html

The wording made by the OP screams of this. This thread is not a thread to improve content but to get Anet to make it easier for elitist to become more so in this game.

Again. Many like myself left other game to come this this to get away from elitism. Instanced content no matter the size is and elitist mentality and should not be made welcome. Especially in a game that is suppose to place the community over the single person or group.

Again I state I am fully against any increase in instanced content.

Will they add this content? maybe.

Will we see elitism more and more in this game? Yes. It is already here and getting worse.

I am done with this thread.

I find it entertaining that you think my purpose (FYI, I am the OP) is to provide ways to be elitist when in fact they are already available in this game (achievements, pvp MMR, wvw rank, legendaries, cultural gear, limited items, guilds, etc). There are always individuals who are jerks and there are always individuals who are nice. I’ve met plenty nice elitists and casual jerks to know that speaking in generalities as you have is simply unfounded, especially when these types of standards are absolutely inconsistent by nature regarding their definitions.

As I’ve stated before, there just isn’t any PvE content that simply cannot be facerolled the first time it is encountered, which is an obvious problem. Luckily PvP/WvW is quite entertaining and sprinkling in bits of casual PvE is fine; it’s again, just unfortunate that it is faceroll easy (i.e. boring).

Krosslite.1950:

A video game elitist is an individual who only socializes with others that they deem worthy. Within video games they create a clique (commonly a guild or clan) and only allow those individuals to participate in their activities while viewing themselves better than everyone else in the society.

When the majority of your school life was spent being picked on by others, you have to make up for it by being awesome and better than everyone somewhere. Might as well be a video game.

Why does everyone paint the “Elitist” as the bad guy? Sure, I’ve been kicked out of many parties because my gear was not up to par with their standards. But never have I felt that they were (ALL) “Jerk’s”. The reason that people ask for “Gear Inspect” is because they simply want to farm the content as fast as possible. And by you not having the proper “Gear” you are essentially a liability to them. Whenever I get kicked (Mainly cause I’m a Vampmancer) I just look for another group it’s not that hard.

And the pessimistic and wimpy overtone’s of a small few in this community will have anyone at any given time called an “Elitist” or that their idea is “Elitist”. Simply because their idea maybe resembles something akin to another mmo that has a lot of “Elitist” in it. Or maybe because they run CoF all day, or that they have full ascended.The word is just being thrown around so lightly.

“I’m right”
“No, I’m right”
Blah, blah, blah

They couldn’t implement the kind of raiding people want anyway, without solidifying agro mechanics and establishing a trinity. The mechanics just aren’t in place for it, unless they use gimmicks.

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Why does everyone paint the “Elitist” as the bad guy?

Everyone doesn’t. However, since you asked…

Some people react negatively to them because they are exclusionists. An our-way-or-kicked attitude is essentially selfish. They are doing it for their own convenience. Contrast that with someone who takes everyone into their group and works with them to get the content done. RL society will generally attribute more value to the second attitude than the first. So, people see this attitude in game and react negatively to it.

This ignores that some of the true elite do contribute a lot to an MMO community in the form of wiki formulation, build guides and how-to videos.

That’s also not to say I think the exclusonists should change. Their $60 is as good as anyone elses. I say let them play as they want to. And, if they advertise their preferences and someone tries to weasel into their group anyway — well, society tends to take a dim view of weaseling also.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Rift may have changed. It’s been a very long time since I played it. But I did have contact with someone who was very turned off by the expansion because of the inordinate amount of grind necessary to get himself raid ready.

He was a big Rift fan until Storm Legion came out, after which he didn’t have quite as much time and his guild leveled without him. They were raiding without him and the amount of time it would have taken him to catch up to them was prohibitive.

So it sounds like a typical gear-grind MMO.

I haven’t played Rift in quite some time, either. That said, looking at the design decisions TW made, it seemed like the planning process was: "Let’s copy everything about WoW, combat mechanics, huge numbers of skills, dual factions, global cooldowns, raid progression, daily quests, etc. OK, now we need some innovation. Let’s put in rifts and invasions, and we’ll let players have multiple sub-classes.

Until the discussion above about planarite came up, I’d forgotten about it. It’s kind of eerie how much its eventual uselessness resembles Karma in GW2.

Oh, it looks like you were right about mounts in GW2.

What about mounts in Guild Wars 2? Did I miss something?

Krosslite.1950:

per Arenanet:

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

There is your Raiding

Zerging mobs with zero strategy or any need to pay attention to mechanics isn’t “raiding.”

I don’t care how much you want to jump up and down and stamp your feet insisting that it is.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Rift may have changed. It’s been a very long time since I played it. But I did have contact with someone who was very turned off by the expansion because of the inordinate amount of grind necessary to get himself raid ready.

He was a big Rift fan until Storm Legion came out, after which he didn’t have quite as much time and his guild leveled without him. They were raiding without him and the amount of time it would have taken him to catch up to them was prohibitive.

So it sounds like a typical gear-grind MMO.

I haven’t played Rift in quite some time, either. That said, looking at the design decisions TW made, it seemed like the planning process was: "Let’s copy everything about WoW, combat mechanics, huge numbers of skills, dual factions, global cooldowns, raid progression, daily quests, etc. OK, now we need some innovation. Let’s put in rifts and invasions, and we’ll let players have multiple sub-classes.

Until the discussion above about planarite came up, I’d forgotten about it. It’s kind of eerie how much its eventual uselessness resembles Karma in GW2.

Oh, it looks like you were right about mounts in GW2.

What about mounts in Guild Wars 2? Did I miss something?

It was a shot in the dark, looks like I guessed wrong.

+1 to raids or any pve content that is actually challenging in my opinion anet has made this game way to casual and made almost all the content afkable. It would be nice to see them introduce some really hard content.

Unlike many people on the GW forum, I don’t dislike raids… I never really did them either.
- Back in WoW, and I’m talking TBC (the start of Wrath) there was, indeed, a seperation between players.
- But I didn’t mind it. I thought it a quality of the game that some people were the “Heroes” the people you looked up to. There were those that stood out.
- I think that in GW2 it is no big deal to have any dungeon gear at all. No one cares about your character but you, because everyone are the same, everyone are on the same level.

- Quite frankly, although I’m no hardcore gamer, I can see why they want a game, where they are rewarded for their time and skill and can show it off.
- I don’t think that it necessarily is a bad thing. There can be dungeon gear that we all can get and look cool with, and then there can be the even better gear that only the most brave and skilled of players that accept those hardcore challenges dare go for.
- I’d feel let down if games felt too easy for me. Especially the MMO genre had prestige for the players who got the high end gear.
- Even in GW1, although it wasn’t done through dungeons, getting an Elite Armor set was looked upon as a symbol of status. The weapons, though, took some effort to get, and there were players, whom you’d notice.
- It was like that when legendaries first showed themselves in GW2, but we’ve seen all of them.

I wouldn’t mind having people with some unusual gear that they got for their time and skill in the game wandering around Tyria. It would give players something to strive for. Some long term goals.

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

They go undone because the rewards are; rarely needed components for legendaries, karma (which is obtainable anywhere else), and useless-stat exotic karma gear. Not to mention the encounters themselves are zerg-fest open-world fights (i.e. snooze fest content).

docMed.7692:

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

They go undone because the rewards are; rarely needed components for legendaries, karma (which is obtainable anywhere else), and useless-stat exotic karma gear. Not to mention the encounters themselves are zerg-fest open-world fights (i.e. snooze fest content).

My experience has been somewhat different with regard to the temples. People were doing them, especially after the guaranteed rare. People even did them before the guaranteed rare, albeit with less frequency. Now, no one wants to on my servers.

Three things happened.

1. The prices of rares has come down quite a bit
2. ANet made the events more “interesting” with different mob mechanics, a lot more mob AoE, and the (since fixed) broken scaling
3. Southsun

Condition 3 will be over soon, then maybe my server will see some activity in Orr. However, just because you find the events to be “snooze-fests” doesn’t mean that’s why they are unattended.

IndigoSundown.5419:

docMed.7692:

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

They go undone because the rewards are; rarely needed components for legendaries, karma (which is obtainable anywhere else), and useless-stat exotic karma gear. Not to mention the encounters themselves are zerg-fest open-world fights (i.e. snooze fest content).

My experience has been somewhat different with regard to the temples. People were doing them, especially after the guaranteed rare. People even did them before the guaranteed rare, albeit with less frequency. Now, no one wants to on my servers.

Three things happened.

1. The prices of rares has come down quite a bit
2. ANet made the events more “interesting” with different mob mechanics, a lot more mob AoE, and the (since fixed) broken scaling
3. Southsun

Condition 3 will be over soon, then maybe my server will see some activity in Orr. However, just because you find the events to be “snooze-fests” doesn’t mean that’s why they are unattended.

The argument here isn’t whether or not grinding open-world events should be done. The discussion is focused around the lack of difficult PvE content. In my opinion, these do not qualify even remotely close to what most would consider challenging.

docMed.7692:

IndigoSundown.5419:

docMed.7692:

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

They go undone because the rewards are; rarely needed components for legendaries, karma (which is obtainable anywhere else), and useless-stat exotic karma gear. Not to mention the encounters themselves are zerg-fest open-world fights (i.e. snooze fest content).

My experience has been somewhat different with regard to the temples. People were doing them, especially after the guaranteed rare. People even did them before the guaranteed rare, albeit with less frequency. Now, no one wants to on my servers.

Three things happened.

1. The prices of rares has come down quite a bit
2. ANet made the events more “interesting” with different mob mechanics, a lot more mob AoE, and the (since fixed) broken scaling
3. Southsun

Condition 3 will be over soon, then maybe my server will see some activity in Orr. However, just because you find the events to be “snooze-fests” doesn’t mean that’s why they are unattended.

The argument here isn’t whether or not grinding open-world events should be done. The discussion is focused around the lack of difficult PvE content. In my opinion, these do not qualify even remotely close to what most would consider challenging.

I’d be interested to see what percentage of the population would agree with you. Its too bad that the forums are unlikely to be an accurate microcosm of the whole player-base. I doubt that “most” is correct, however. Personally, I thought that the hardest part of raiding was the herding cats part, but I didn’t get involved in raids until WotLK, so I cannot speak to older iterations.

IndigoSundown.5419:

docMed.7692:

IndigoSundown.5419:

docMed.7692:

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

They go undone because the rewards are; rarely needed components for legendaries, karma (which is obtainable anywhere else), and useless-stat exotic karma gear. Not to mention the encounters themselves are zerg-fest open-world fights (i.e. snooze fest content).

My experience has been somewhat different with regard to the temples. People were doing them, especially after the guaranteed rare. People even did them before the guaranteed rare, albeit with less frequency. Now, no one wants to on my servers.

Three things happened.

1. The prices of rares has come down quite a bit
2. ANet made the events more “interesting” with different mob mechanics, a lot more mob AoE, and the (since fixed) broken scaling
3. Southsun

Condition 3 will be over soon, then maybe my server will see some activity in Orr. However, just because you find the events to be “snooze-fests” doesn’t mean that’s why they are unattended.

The argument here isn’t whether or not grinding open-world events should be done. The discussion is focused around the lack of difficult PvE content. In my opinion, these do not qualify even remotely close to what most would consider challenging.

I’d be interested to see what percentage of the population would agree with you. Its too bad that the forums are unlikely to be an accurate microcosm of the whole player-base. I doubt that “most” is correct, however. Personally, I thought that the hardest part of raiding was the herding cats part, but I didn’t get involved in raids until WotLK, so I cannot speak to older iterations.

Yea, me too – that’s definitely why I always premise statements like that with, “in my opinion” etc. I try not to paint it off as fact.

The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.

If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.

Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.

killcannon.2576:

The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.

If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.

Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.

Temple events may be “Harder content” but that is only true in cases were a “Zerg” group is not present. This content can be done rather easily depending on the size of the event participants. And for that most part (atleast) on my server the Temples are zerged. However regardless of this Temple events are not meant to fulfill the “Role” of “Instanced Raid/Elite” content as Temple event’s are simply boss fights with little or no mechanics and almost no adds. Which on a “Good” day can be completed in less than ten minutes.

This content is by no means on scale in terms of difficulty with what we see in other games primarily Guildwars 1. Now too your point about why the mechanic’s won’t work. What exactly are you specifically talking about? Also if these are known problems why can’t Arenanet simply fix them in order to introduce this content? Lastly you mentioned that “People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.” but I see no problem with this, what is wrong with that? (If you are indeed saying something is wrong with it)

Martin The Brave.8731:

killcannon.2576:

The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.

If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.

Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.

Temple events may be “Harder content” but that is only true in cases were a “Zerg” group is not present. This content can be done rather easily depending on the size of the event participants. And for that most part (atleast) on my server the Temples are zerged. However regardless of this Temple events are not meant to fulfill the “Role” of “Instanced Raid/Elite” content as Temple event’s are simply boss fights with little or no mechanics and almost no adds. Which on a “Good” day can be completed in less than ten minutes.

This content is by no means on scale in terms of difficulty with what we see in other games primarily Guildwars 1. Now too your point about why the mechanic’s won’t work. What exactly are you specifically talking about? Also if these are known problems why can’t Arenanet simply fix them in order to introduce this content? Lastly you mentioned that “People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.” but I see no problem with this, what is wrong with that? (If you are indeed saying something is wrong with it)

Not saying there is anything wrong with it. I firmly believe that rewards should equal effort involved. I have never played Guild Wars vanilla, so can not speak to any of it’s content past the point of understanding some of it’s mechanics and the genre of the game. You can’t zerg Grenth.

The mechanics I am talking about are squishy aggro rules, non defined roles, and damage mitigation. Play out the raid encounters you think about adding in your mind or on paper and then add the game mechanics present in GW2. Post the idea of your raid encounter here and let’s look at it critically.

If GW2 changed all the things that make typical raid encounters impossible to instead make them possible, then it’s no longer GW2, it’s another game. I posit that game has already been made, and another one or ten is coming out. Wildstar looks promising. It seems to include some of the best ideas from this game, as well as some of the best ideas of other mmorpg’s.

GW2 is what it is. It may change in the future depending on player preference. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I have to disagree with you here Killcannon (you can absolutely zerg grenth and people do). You should check out the guild puzzles, they have some very cool mechanics before you get into the idea of "no trinity = no possible interesting mechanics".

killcannon.2576:

Martin The Brave.8731:

killcannon.2576:

The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.

If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.

Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.

Temple events may be “Harder content” but that is only true in cases were a “Zerg” group is not present. This content can be done rather easily depending on the size of the event participants. And for that most part (atleast) on my server the Temples are zerged. However regardless of this Temple events are not meant to fulfill the “Role” of “Instanced Raid/Elite” content as Temple event’s are simply boss fights with little or no mechanics and almost no adds. Which on a “Good” day can be completed in less than ten minutes.

This content is by no means on scale in terms of difficulty with what we see in other games primarily Guildwars 1. Now too your point about why the mechanic’s won’t work. What exactly are you specifically talking about? Also if these are known problems why can’t Arenanet simply fix them in order to introduce this content? Lastly you mentioned that “People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.” but I see no problem with this, what is wrong with that? (If you are indeed saying something is wrong with it)

Not saying there is anything wrong with it. I firmly believe that rewards should equal effort involved. I have never played Guild Wars vanilla, so can not speak to any of it’s content past the point of understanding some of it’s mechanics and the genre of the game. You can’t zerg Grenth.

The mechanics I am talking about are squishy aggro rules, non defined roles, and damage mitigation. Play out the raid encounters you think about adding in your mind or on paper and then add the game mechanics present in GW2. Post the idea of your raid encounter here and let’s look at it critically.

If GW2 changed all the things that make typical raid encounters impossible to instead make them possible, then it’s no longer GW2, it’s another game. I posit that game has already been made, and another one or ten is coming out. Wildstar looks promising. It seems to include some of the best ideas from this game, as well as some of the best ideas of other mmorpg’s.

GW2 is what it is. It may change in the future depending on player preference. Enjoy it while it lasts.

If you’ve never played Guildwars 1 or “Vanilla” as you call it how can you have a good feel of the mechanics which may take place in this game? Looking back at what Arenanet has made is probably the best way to determine what they will make. But regardless of that I feel that your post lacks “Substance” you claim in your post that the current mechanics are “squishy aggro rules, non defined roles, and damage mitigation” but you haven’t given why, you simply assert it without any justification or comparisons. But let’s just say for sake of your “Argument” that what you are saying has been clarified in detail. My question then be: Why can’t Arenanet simply fix these mechanics issues.

You may be grounded in some truth when you say that their are “Non Specific roles” but why is that necessary for “Elite/Raid” content? In Guildwars 2 there is a sense of roles, like Support or Control which Arenanet should emphasize by focusing content around what player ought to do. Instead of them simply “Speeding” through content which in my mind isn’t necessarily bad. If everyone in your party is DPS so what? Obviously there will be setbacks in some degree.

Lastly I would like you to clarify what you mean when you say “squishy aggro rules and damage mitigation”. I would also like you too watch Guildwars 1 Elite mission content or at least read about it. I think this would be better than me actually making up a idea of what a Guildwars 2 “Raid” would look like.

P.S – Grenth is Zergable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiUl6_dhjg ( Grenth fight starts at 3:55 fight ends at 4:54 the wraiths disappear thats how you can tell) Grenth killed in a minute. He cut his res time.

docMed.7692:

I have to disagree with you here Killcannon (you can absolutely zerg grenth and people do). You should check out the guild puzzles, they have some very cool mechanics before you get into the idea of “no trinity = no possible interesting mechanics”.

Then I would be interested in what your ideas of a Raid encounter would be.

if anet did do raids I myself won’t be against it but anet would also have to do it right. biggest issue I found with WoW raiding was the ever growing elitism with every new raid because of how gear was handled.

Last good fight in a raid in wow in my option

IF you think this is anything close to what is in GW2 i dont know what to tell you. I read a couple of people comparing temple events and that just made me laugh. 50 people hitting 1 will clear a temple event. And this is just the normal version, there is a much harder heroic version.

Now i am not saying raid style content is right for gw2 but if you think the pve in gw2 has anywhere near the depth and complexity of wows pve you need to get you eyes checked.

Now i personally cant see them doing any type of complex pve just by what they have showed so far. There no trinity just does not seem to work imo for pve. Now maybe they might prove me wrong but as it stands the next mmo that has good pve will probably get my money when it comes out.

Shinji.2063:

Last good fight in a raid in wow in my option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMRMG7KOTQ

I was always a karazhan fan myself.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Shinji.2063:

Last good fight in a raid in wow in my option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMRMG7KOTQ

I was always a karazhan fan myself.

Same here, Kara was good times.

Raiding won’t work in this game! It will just be a boring zerg fest, Just spamming the same skills for 20min on 1 boss. There is no skill in this game, there is no healing or tanking, just dps’ing.

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

Pretty much this. We already have raid “light” encounters in the game and they fall into one of two categories; the “nobody bothers with them” category which includes temples (and when they do it is to unlock the merchant for gear), and the “zergging the hell out of it making it require nothing more than showing up” category like the world bosses. That’s it, the pinnacle of GW2 raid-ish content. As long as there is no trinity more difficult/complex encounters wont be possible (or they wont be done). Gear is required to allow for more an more difficult content, that is why it is called a progression. Both of these are necessary for real “raid” like content.

Phaedryn.3698:

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

Pretty much this. We already have raid “light” encounters in the game and they fall into one of two categories; the “nobody bothers with them” category which includes temples (and when they do it is to unlock the merchant for gear), and the “zergging the hell out of it making it require nothing more than showing up” category like the world bosses. That’s it, the pinnacle of GW2 raid-ish content. As long as there is no trinity more difficult/complex encounters wont be possible (or they wont be done). Gear is required to allow for more an more difficult content, that is why it is called a progression. Both of these are necessary for real “raid” like content.

Gear progression is no way necessary for raiding.

killcannon.2576:

They couldn’t implement the kind of raiding people want anyway, without solidifying agro mechanics and establishing a trinity. The mechanics just aren’t in place for it, unless they use gimmicks.

CoRtex.2157:

Raiding won’t work in this game! It will just be a boring zerg fest, Just spamming the same skills for 20min on 1 boss. There is no skill in this game, there is no healing or tanking, just dps’ing.

You can have meaningful raids without a trinity. You need to overhaul the combat mechanics in PvE, however. Base it around buff/debuff and cleanse/condition cycles, a mechanic that could make for highly interesting and, when appropriate, complex content that eschews the trinity while satisfying players’ need for challenging content. For example:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Tanks-being-tankier-dedicated-healing-class/page/4#post1830399

killcannon.2576:

Lambent.6375:

Phaedryn.3698:

Two problems with implementing raids in GW2. First, no trinity means raids will be trivial (just as all the world bosses are now). Second, the necessary gear progression would break all other content. Raid gear in WvW would be completely imbalanced, and would utterly trivialize all other PvE content (even more than it currently is).

I would say that with the number of mmorpg’s out nowadays there are many different variations of raids, and gear progression is not really a necessary component of raids (though it does get people hooked on them, as WoW has strongly shown.)

In some games raids are a simple matter of gathering a large amount of players to tackle a very difficult boss, dungeon, or series of encounters, and the gear you get from it doesn’t really give you a huge boost in power, but it does look cool.
(rambling)

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I don’t think a GW2 “raid” would need the trinity to be successful either, rather than focus on that, they could focus on the cooperation of the people in open world.

Say if they ever had, oh, I’ll just call them advanced dynamic events, they could have a feature where a boss would switch to different phases, and in one phase melee dmg would heal him, requiring everyone to switch to a ranged weapon, or not attack at all if they don’t currently have access to one. Well, I’m sure it would be a lot more complicated than that, that’s just something I made up.

(there should probably be no scaling for these special events either, the difficulty would already be set, and remain set)

And none of what I typed above is even needed, as they will probably be introducing new dynamic events sometime in the future, that are a bit more fun, I just wanted to show that there is more to raiding than gear progression.

Those are called Temple events, which very often go undone.

Yes, I know what a temple event is. I was thinking of something that requires a little more cooperation than a temple event, but with greater rewards.

That’s one of the reason I typed “And none of what I typed above is even needed”, because Anet will probably go this route when they introduce new meta events in the future.

Btw, the dwyana chest has a high chance of giving a charged core. I don’t know if they increased the rate or something, but I have gotten them the last three times I have did Dwyana.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

killcannon.2576:

They couldn’t implement the kind of raiding people want anyway, without solidifying agro mechanics and establishing a trinity. The mechanics just aren’t in place for it, unless they use gimmicks.

CoRtex.2157:

Raiding won’t work in this game! It will just be a boring zerg fest, Just spamming the same skills for 20min on 1 boss. There is no skill in this game, there is no healing or tanking, just dps’ing.

You can have meaningful raids without a trinity. You need to overhaul the combat mechanics in PvE, however. Base it around buff/debuff and cleanse/condition cycles, a mechanic that could make for highly interesting and, when appropriate, complex content that eschews the trinity while satisfying players’ need for challenging content. For example:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Tanks-being-tankier-dedicated-healing-class/page/4#post1830399

What that post talks about is making certain classes/builds dependent upon other classes/builds in order to be effective. It’s the trinity, except it just isn’t being called the trinity. You can dress that pig up however you want, it’s still a pig.

Edit: As far as I’m concerned, they can add the trinity (or whatever half baked idea people don’t want to call the trinity), they can add raids, and gear progression as well(cosmetic or otherwise). Just saying you can’t do it without significant changes to the game mechanics.

I think introducing raids could be a good addition as long as they don’t change existing combat mechanics into the trinity and don’t turn it into a gear advantage over others, unless they make it so that if the raid does drop better gear, than that gear is only usable in the raid itself for further raid progression.

This should make people who want raids happy, they also get to experience the joy of gear progression, but doesn’t step on the toes of people who don’t care or like raids/gear treadmills or disadvantaging players outside of raiding content. I think most people could except this.

But ultimately this game was never about raids in the traditional sense of raid style gaming. Guild Wars 2 has done something different and I am thankful for that. It wont appeal to everyone of course. Honestly though, if I really wanted to keep raiding I would just play an existing game that does raiding really well instead of trying to change something else into something it is not. It’s like trying to change a Harley Davidson into a CBR 900 or a Mars Bar into a Snickers. People will like one over the other for different reasons and each of those products cater to their intended market. Each one can be successful without trying to be everything to everyone.

killcannon.2576:

What that post talks about is making certain classes/builds dependent upon other classes/builds in order to be effective. It’s the trinity, except it just isn’t being called the trinity. You can dress that pig up however you want, it’s still a pig.

Isn’t the trinity typically composed of tank-healer-dps? Ensign’s suggestion explicitly rejects the tank/healing paradigm as an insipid bore. Cleanse/condition and buff/debuff seems rather different from the trinity.

I dont know if somebody has mentioned it already, I didnt real the whole thread, so much text ….

But I’ve thought about raids some months ago too, for me there’s always the problem about how you die in gw2 and if you would implement this “Rally” aka “Downed” system into raids, it could really suck.

In this case all boss battles must have no opportunity to quickly rally on a single mob….
Furthermore in a raid a downed person is healed very quickly, not to say instant….
In this case bosses need some sort of buff if a player is downed…otherwise its like a dragon event and nobody dies and its way to easy….

Guns and Giblets.9308:

killcannon.2576:

What that post talks about is making certain classes/builds dependent upon other classes/builds in order to be effective. It’s the trinity, except it just isn’t being called the trinity. You can dress that pig up however you want, it’s still a pig.

Isn’t the trinity typically composed of tank-healer-dps? Ensign’s suggestion explicitly rejects the tank/healing paradigm as an insipid bore. Cleanse/condition and buff/debuff seems rather different from the trinity.

The idea behind the trinity is making certain classes/builds work dynamically and dependently on one another. In other words, you can’t do/makes it harder to do X content without X class /builds. You can replace the names Tank and Healer with buff/debuff and cleanse/condition, but it still makes classes dependent on each other to do content, the same as in a trinity system.

It’s the same idea, just with a different name.

Fine with raids, as long as the content is not exclusive to the raid, make sure there is at least a 5 man version of the same raid.

Raids could make for a more epic impact in story-telling with dungeons. So many possibilities. I’d say that they should have made sort of a raid-version of fighting Zhaitan.

killcannon.2576:

The idea behind the trinity is making certain classes/builds work dynamically and dependently on one another. In other words, you can’t do/makes it harder to do X content without X class /builds. You can replace the names Tank and Healer with buff/debuff and cleanse/condition, but it still makes classes dependent on each other to do content, the same as in a trinity system.

It’s the same idea, just with a different name.

I guess it’s a semantic problem.

Skipping the semantics, I’m fine with the introduction of roles. These could only be necessary for a “hard mode” for new dungeons/raids, while the normal versions continue to work as they always have: five-man dps party vs. an hp sponge that spits out red circles of death of varying size and frequency.

Glad it only took 1 1/2 years from this thread for Anet to realize raiding is an essential part of any MMO and can also be tackled in a completely unique way via GW2... /tears!

Pardon me if this has been said already, I don’t feel like reading through 4 pages.

I would absolutely love some challenging content, raiding style instances in the game. The one major problem I see with it would be the rewards. Anet would have to scale the instance for Exotic gear, so having Ascended would be the reward.

They could never introduce Legendary armor, the uproar and pitchforks for “Gear Grind” would be even more than when they introduced Ascended gear. If by chance, they did create legendary armor and put it in the raid instance(s), then you would have the “casuals” complaining that they can never get the best armor out there.

Way to necro. o/