To ppl that asked for vertical progression...
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
Since ANet threw the Ascended tier in to the game with little advance warning, I’m not sure that we can count on advance warning about another tier.
Jeez, this thread again?
Ok, here’s my perspective: I don’t like Ascended gear. I dislike how expensive it is and how it isn’t gained through new content but rather the same content just with different icons for materials. However….
I dislike games that FORCE vertical progression on me. You DO NOT need Ascended to play content in this game. Yes, it does make you more efficient, and if you are that crazy on numbers, fine; leave the game because of it. But I don’t care about those numbers. I don’t need Ascended armor to run dungeons. I don’t need it to go into WvW. I don’t need it at all. I can play the game and still enjoy it without Ascended.
Really, I think people over exaggerate too much on this topic. Does the introduction of a 5-15% damage effectiveness really suddenly make the game completely un-enjoyable in everything you do in the game? Everything becomes un-enjoyable just because of numbers and text and you quit because of it? Someone shed light on that question please…
Vertical progression is not necessary. What is actually necessary is character progression. Ideally, we are invested in our characters and want to see them progress. The amount of identification with a character varies greatly but all players want their character to expand-evolve-advance whatever you want to call it.
Now, this is where you get to the two dominant methods of character progression, vertical and horizontal. Before you go any further, google “horizontal progression” and read the first couple three hits. These will generally contrast it to vertical progression. Horizontal progression, primarily through ability progression, allows players to vastly expand their characters. Vertical progression actually provides nothing but new numbers on a character sheet. In WoW I started at around 10-15k HP. Now I’m around 500k HP with corresponding increases is power and nothing has changed. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. The emperor of VP has no clothes.
Contrast that to ability progression where you explore, unlock new skills, and discover ways to enhance those skills. This may completely change your gameplay and utility in groups. This is where true build diversity occurs.
No, vertical progression is not necessary in an MMO. Google ESO +"character progression". What they talk about on their video is essentially skill progression of the horizontal variety regardless of what they do with VP. Why? Because it offers true character progression rather than the larger number VP offers.
I did as you requested and looked up horizontal progression and how it corresponds to vertical progression. I actually read through every topic that came up on the first page of Google, and I found this little nugget under the title “Horizontal Progression Options” and how to expand upon them:
Crafting
Allow players to discover legendary crafting recipes that can produce some of the best items, effects and features in the game. The ingredients would be a challenge to find and prepare, but the results could be comparable to running the most difficult content. All crafting systems – mining, blacksmithing, cooking, woodcrafting – would have these legendary recipes, so there is room for great variety in the items that could be created. It would take time and effort to both find the recipes and craft the items they contain.Sound familiar?
As far as ESO, their idea of skill progression sounds interesting. However, if there are weapons and armor that can be found that augment damage, healing, whatever, and they create new weapons and armor that are better than what is in the game originally, then I believe that falls under vertical progression, so it exists even in your example. Of course, we won’t know that until the game is underway for at least few months, so only time will tell.
I stick to my original statement that vertical progression (either skill or gear) is a necessity in an MMORPG, unless you want there to be a point where people get bored and stop playing.
And I stick to my position that there are two dominant ways to go and horizontal is superior. BTW, a couple corrections. If you read through all those hits you know that skill or ability progression is the main method of implementing horizontal progression. VP isn’t implemented or managed over time by skills. And, while VP is usually implemented through a gear grind and many refer to it as gear progression, what’s really progressing (increasing) is power (and all associated stats) not gear. The stat inflation could even be effected by infusions to existing gear for that matter. It’s the power creep that distinguishes vertical progression. BTW, there’s a good video on power creep that you may enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw.
And, as long as there is ability or skill progression and new content added periodically no one should be bored just because the character progression is horizontal. They will be more relaxed, but I doubt they will be more bored.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
To be fair, they very clearly said that “For now, this is the final tier”, to paraphrase.
There’s no real guarantee if this is the end of it. And I doubt it is.
I ? Karkas.
The problem you seem to have it, you are divorcing the money = from the design part.
Games are made to generate a lot of income especially games with AAA budgets. Indies can afford to go all crazy because they are not dealing 60+ million dollar budgets. So their threshold for profitability is extremely low compared to the bigger budget. The reason why most AAA video games seem safe when compared to indies is because they want to appeal to as many people as they can to recoup those high budgets. Indies can try all the risk because losing 10 mil is alot easier than losing 60 mil.
Roberts space industries would like a word with you, regarding that matter.
I don’t mean to divorce those 2 parts, because they don’t exclude eachother. You can produce an innovative product and have a certain level of guaranted success with it. If big budgets are a problem (as odd as this may seem) then reduce the budget, work with less, drop content that nobody wanted anyway and add things the community asks for after release for more money. I know it doesn’t always work out like that but the risk should already be lower since almost nobody dares this step so there is actually no competition.
I understand what it means to favor one audience over another instead of feeding everyone with half baked compromises. It means more people will buy the game initially. It also means the game will be abandoned after a few years and you will have to produce a sequel in order to stay in business. Ask EA how many sequels it takes until nobody bothers your generic crap anymore. On the other hand there is Blizzard doing their thing for decades, I mean really – you may not like their games but they live for more than just a few years.
My point is there is no proof or anything that the way games are designed nowadays by most big companies, is the only successful way. Success can happen in many different ways and scales. I doesn’t only depend on the size of your audience but on it’s ‘quality’ as well.
Here’s an idea: don’t like ascended? Don’t grind for them.
I don’t care about FoTM, so I know I won’t worry about getting the armor (which, from what I hear, brings a ridiculously minimal overall bonus.) I got the jewels, of course, but you can’t really talk of a grind there, just do your dailies and monthlies and you can get a full set in a couple months. Without really trying. Without grinding, in short. If you’re in a guild that does guild missions, it’s even easier as they’ll give you tokens for 2 of the 5 trinkets.
I might consider making a couple ascended weapons with the mats that just keep on piling up in my bank. I did get one from loot too. Am I feeling “forced” by the game in any kind of vertical progression grind? Nope. As a matter of fact, most of the time I don’t even use my looted ascended GS cause I like the skin on my exotic GS better. Losing 9 points in power, 4-5 in precision doesn’t break my build. Do not NEED it. Still as care free as during beta weekend number 2. I’m competitive in every area of the game except high level FoTM, basically. Oh I did grind a bit. Wanted a legendary. Self-inflicted pain, though, I didn’t really need it.
So there you go. Am I against the idea of vertical progression in GW2? Yup, that was the main selling point for me. Did GW2 force me into it? Nope.
(Actually, slight edit. I don’t mind the idea of VP. What I’d mind would be to be forced on a treadmill grind run to keep up with it because there’s no other option but to keep up with it. My conclusion was a little unclear)
-Blackgate-
(edited by Lydell.8713)
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch. Anyway, this is ancient history but here’s Mike O’Brien in the AMA he did after launch & the announcement of Ascended gear…
“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.” – Mike O’Brien, Nov. 2012
for the question he was responding to and for the rest of his response:
for the rest of the AMA:
its hard to remember we’re alive for the first time
its hard to remember we’re alive for the last time
its hard to remember we’re alive for the last time
The problem is vertical progression in the context of gw2.
I mean at first, you might ask, well, shouldn’t you always want something to work for? I mean if you’re gotten everything, maybe having no goals is going to suck. But this is assuming the gameplay isn’t rewarding enough in and of itself. And indeed, when we speedrun dungeons, they become more of something to be gotten over with.
The main thing about progression is in it being exclusive. If the thing in question is trivially obtained then everyone will have it, and then there will feel like there’s no point. So Gw2 at first was a grind for skins. Looks are subjective, and progression became the ability to customize your appearance to your liking. Likewise, things that increase options such as more skills or more flexibility lead to a more meaningful progression.
Gw2 in counter to subscription MMOs does not run on you logging on every day. Thus, there is no need for carrot chasing— you should be able to log out, and come back 3 months later to find yourself being able to access new content and for the most part a level 80 that logged out 6 months ago can do content that exists now. For the most part this is generally true outside of high level fractals although you can still experience fractals with no agony resistance. And that is one of the strengths of the game and that is there is no need to continuously push a boulder futilely up a mountain. Actually there are said tasks, such as achievements and legendaries, but if you don’t want to, you won’t miss out on much.
Unfortunately this philosophy runs very counter to grindy vertical progression. In order for someone to do ok without BIS gear, then the difference between tiers cannot be that huge. If someone in all greens was only 30% as effective as someone in all ascended, then that would make some content unnecessarily hard for the lesser geared. Thus the difference between tiers was made to be relatively small and unfortunately for some people, that’s not good enough. There’s no way to show that you are a special snowflake by killing stuff 3x faster in the area by virtue of your grinded gear. Sure you can say you do 15% more damage, but nobody really cares.
So it’s no surprise that vertical progression doesn’t feel particularly satisfying. The game was designed to not make it that big of a deal, so it doesn’t feel that much better. In addition, in order to maintain accessibility, they had to go for the lowest common denominator form of acquisition— crafting. It’s just a lot of grinding. And this is obvious why. Let’s see what would happen if you could only acquire dragonite ore by stuff like the queen’s gauntlet and they mostly came from Liadri-like bosses. Imagine the protests. Or if ascended armor only dropped from level 50 fractals but you were guaranteed one piece per completion.
In addition time gating artificially keeps everyone more in line, so the difference in progression becomes even less apparent. It’s unfortunately my opinion that balance seems to be going for a homogenization route in which everything becomes normalized. So anything a class does that is out of whack is immediately hammered in instead of thinking of some way to make everything more dynamic. The berserker gear nerf is yet another sign of trying to even everything out without making things more interesting. Some may praise this for trying to avoid power creep, but what this really does is rob individual choices of their uniqueness, and it may reach a point eventually where all choices are so similar that they become effectively meaningless, resulting in shallow gameplay.
So to keep this ascended content open, they had to pick a method that anyone could do and also required effort so it wasn’t just trivially handled to them. In retrospect, I don’t think it was a bad idea to do as the ascended materials to make someone do a lot of variety of content. It was definitely the best way to walk the path in context, but we’re just left wondering if the path was worth walking at all. And please, no crap about “they were planning to include ascended” anyways. If you realize the bridge ahead of you is going to collapse, are you going to keep going?
You had unsatisfying results from an unsatisfying grind. And for those that want more, it is not enough. For those that want it, it’s not worth the time. So it falls in between to a sea of mediocrity. Ironically, the way I play is most suited to this kind of progression, but I play casually but also regularly, so the progression feels a lot smoother than people that take long breaks or play a lot during some days.
In the end of the day, it’s possible that people will go through long processes if they are engaging enough. But long monotonous processes, aka grinds, aren’t usually considered fun by most people especially if they feel that it impacts their gameplay, whether it be by 1% or 50%.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch. Anyway, this is ancient history but here’s Mike O’Brien in the AMA he did after launch & the announcement of Ascended gear…
“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.” – Mike O’Brien, Nov. 2012
for the question he was responding to and for the rest of his response:
for the rest of the AMA:
“Why 250 mats? That’s really core here. It’s fine to say that non-cosmetic VP isn’t supposed to be grindy or outside the reach of normal players, but then we price some new items at 250 ectos with no other ways to get them, and it’s hard to interpret it as other than that. That’s a mistake. The design team has committed to fixing that.
~ MO"
Lol, “The design team committed to fixing that” a year later, still not fixed.
So committed!
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.
I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.
The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.
You’re welcome to provide an explicit quote that they said what you’re stating, but the one you offered is not it.
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.
I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.
The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.
You’re welcome to provide an explicit quote that they said what you’re stating, but the one you offered is not it.
Yeah, I noticed that too. They did say that they had intended Ascended gear from the beginning but nowhere do I remember a stated intention around VP.
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.
I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.
The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.
The goal to re-attain the GW player base was never a hidden agenda though (‘the game takes the best from GW1…’).
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
There is a reason why MMORPG =/= RPG. If you hate grind don’t play an MMORPG.
What part of Guildwars 2 being announced pre launch as an MMORPG without grinds are you failing to grasp?
Now it has the mother of all grinds i’ve ever seen, and it’s mandatory if you want to be sure pvp will be skill based as much possible.
(edited by Aioros.4862)
I read the first page of responses to this thread, mine probably wont be read but I will say this anyway.
Currently ascended armour is the worst form of progression I’ve ever seen on an MMORPG. I know many people don’t want progression but it really stumps as to why not, why would you NOT want to have goals to aim for.
Getting more stats isn’t a goal, it’s a hamster wheel. Are you stating that your basic needs are on that level ? Stats progression is meaningless because in progression based games the new content also follows said progression so, you become stronger, but so do the mobs.. in which case, are you actually stronger? No because there is always a power balance maintained in the new content so that you don’t overpower stuff with the new stats. The only thing stat progression does is make older content obsolete/incredibly easy/fast to complete and put a time gate / barrier preventing you from accessing the new content (aka having fun) until you grind mindless crap over and over.
Having a goal is more like desiring to become better at the game, more skillful, be it in PVE or PVP. Getting more stats isn’t a goal. You’re just playing the hamster wheel, running in the same spot, never actually moving toward anything. Are you a hamster?
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
Did you actually get stronger ?
Yes. You can now face tougher foes than you could previously. That is one definition of becoming stronger or better, the ability to accomplish that which was previously beyond your capability.
A chess player who practices a lot so that he wins more, increasing his ELO rating, will then be matched up against tougher opponents. The fact that he now faces higher rated opponents, more of a match for his new skill level, does not mean that he has not become a better, or, “stronger,” player.
Did you actually get stronger ?
Yes. You can now face tougher foes than you could previously. That is one definition of becoming stronger or better, the ability to accomplish that which was previously beyond your capability.
A chess player who practices a lot so that he wins more, increasing his ELO rating, will then be matched up against tougher opponents. The fact that he now faces higher rated opponents, more of a match for his new skill level, does not mean that he has not become a better, or, “stronger,” player.
Except that inflated stats has nothing to do with challenge, try again.
In fact, the introduction of more ascended gear trivialized fractals. Before the introduction of maxxed AR and gear-checks in the game (like 40 and lvl 50 instabilities and end bosses) you could do higher levels without necessarily having enough AR to survive everything. Now since you need said AR to actually complete the content at all all the gear inflation does is trivialize something that required constant dodging before. Now there are plenty of agony attacks from bosses you don’t have to pay attention to since you’re always maxxed in AR. I can remember the days where I ran groups where one single agony arrow from grawl shaman could kill you. This will never happen again because they decided gear checking AR with instabilities and the end bosses was a worthwhile endeavour, rather than encouraging the player base to learn how to dodge.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
Except that inflated stats has nothing to do with challenge, try again.
This is incorrect.
If your stats increase the level of challenge decreases. This is a direct correlation that is far from, “nothing.” You acknowledge this factor in your own post when you say:
In fact, the introduction of more ascended gear trivialized fractals.
To illustrate the point made in my previous post:
Character A has a degree of strength due to stats equal to X.
Character B acquires gear that gives him a degree of strength due to stats equal to X*2.
Assuming positive integers, X*2 cannot be less than or equal to X and therefore character B’s degree of strength due to stats is greater than A’s.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
—> content has inflated stats, you can’t complete it until you get the new tier of gear
—> you spend hours, and hours, and countless days, weeks grinding for said new set of gear
—> you’re back to the same status of power as you had before that gear and content was introduced. No more stronger or weaker when completing the new content.
You are a lot stronger when completing old content though, which is why old content in most mmo tends to be rather abandoned or boring stuff. Anet tried (and failed) to keep a semblance of balance so that the older content doesn’t get abandoned, by introducing downlevelling in lower level dungeons, but the problem is that lvl 80s are still a lot more powerful than the actual intended levels for these dungeons, and ascended gear’s higher damage is also noticeable if all 5 in the party wears it.
Anyhow, the purpose of gear progression always leads you back to where you were before new tier were introduced. You have X amount of power against X enemies at the moment, Y enemies are introduced you need Y amount of power the game doesn’t actually change it only slows down the time it takes for you to actually access and complete the new content.
The old content gets abandoned because it’s trivialized and obsolete. New content is like a replacement for said old content. Your power level, once you finished your grind, is always the same in the new content, as it was before grind in old content, in a way of speaking, the gameplay didn’t actually change. It’s just stat inflation on two side (your gear, and the mobs) and making older content obsolete.
Edited by Moderator
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Moderator)
—> you’re back to the same status of power as you had before that gear and content was introduced. No more stronger or weaker when completing the new content.
You are a lot stronger when completing old content though, which is why old content in most mmo tends to be rather abandoned or boring stuff. Anet tried (and failed) to keep a semblance of balance so that the older content doesn’t get abandoned, by introducing downlevelling in lower level dungeons, but the problem is that lvl 80s are still a lot more powerful than the actual intended levels for these dungeons, and ascended gear’s higher damage is also noticeable if all 5 in the party wears it.
Which means that characters who have acquired more power (in the form of stats in this case) can blow through older content, such as dungeons, faster, acquiring the resulting rewards and wealth more quickly, perhaps even being able to sell instance runs or power-leveling (in some games).
I guess that might matter if your goal in life is to trivialize old content and run the same crap all day.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
I guess that might matter if your goal in life is to trivialize old content and run the same crap all day.
Not for me, but people do sell dungeon (or mission in GW1) runs, power leveling, and so on. It is a way of “farming” I suppose.
Personally I think that anyone who has anything related to playing a video game as their, “goal in life,” new content, old, or otherwise might want to reconsider.
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.
Then the worst offender, WvW, you deal more damage, take less and you’ll be against many many people who will be in full exotic gear because the grind is so ridiculous to some it’s just not possible to get there (my case), or because they got tired of their mains and want to go on alts, or because they want to try new builds.
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.
This is because GW2 is the only mmo in the world that introduced vertical progression without introducing actual content to follow.
You get new tiers of gear in WoW so that you complete new raids.
GW2 still has the same old instances from years ago with nothing new on the horizon.
But actually, when it comes to PVE speedruns the next balance patch is going to negate the benefits from ascended gear. 10% damage nerf for berserker builds is basically an ascended nerf. Anyone who cared about speedrunning already has ascended gear, and that nerf is going to bring them to the level of damage they used to do on exotics.
Ascended gear is an answer to the wrong question. It didn’t bring anything of worth to this game beside a mindless grind.
We grind for ascended berserker in PVE so that we can have the same power level we.. had on exotics? what a joke.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.This is because GW2 is the only mmo in the world that introduced vertical progression without introducing actual content to follow.
You get new tiers of gear in WoW so that you complete new raids.
GW2 still has the same old instances from years ago with nothing new on the horizon.But actually, when it comes to PVE speedruns the next balance patch is going to negate the benefits from ascended gear. 10% damage nerf for berserker builds is basically an ascended nerf. Anyone who cared about speedrunning already has ascended gear, and that nerf is going to bring them to the level of damage they used to do on exotics.
Ascended gear is an answer to the wrong question. It didn’t bring anything of worth to this game beside a mindless grind.
We grind for ascended berserker in PVE so that we can have the same power level we.. had on exotics? what a joke.
Won’t people in exotic berserker suffer the same penalty percentage? If so, ascended is still a damage upgrade.
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.This is because GW2 is the only mmo in the world that introduced vertical progression without introducing actual content to follow.
You get new tiers of gear in WoW so that you complete new raids.
GW2 still has the same old instances from years ago with nothing new on the horizon.But actually, when it comes to PVE speedruns the next balance patch is going to negate the benefits from ascended gear. 10% damage nerf for berserker builds is basically an ascended nerf. Anyone who cared about speedrunning already has ascended gear, and that nerf is going to bring them to the level of damage they used to do on exotics.
Ascended gear is an answer to the wrong question. It didn’t bring anything of worth to this game beside a mindless grind.
We grind for ascended berserker in PVE so that we can have the same power level we.. had on exotics? what a joke.
Won’t people in exotic berserker suffer the same penalty percentage? If so, ascended is still a damage upgrade.
It is if you intend to actually stay in exotics forever. It isn’t if you give in and get a set, in which case, your normal gameplay will feel like “going back to exotics”. Which is why even talking about “progression” while mentioning ascended gear is a serious joke. Progression? It isn’t even close to what progression is supposed to mean. It is a grind, without progression, without a reason to exist. Other games give you said grind with a real motive : so that you complete new content and lots of it.
Frankly what I think is that they tied ascended to crafting to force the player base to do content that no one really wanted to do before, like Orr temples. Orr used to be very empty. Most players still don’t enjoy doing temples, they do it because they feel obligated to, to stay on the same power curve rather than fall behind.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
It is if you intend to actually stay in exotics forever.
I actually do. I’ve considered what i had to do to go for ascended, and reached the conclusion i would never get there, and above all, i already have a job, don’t need a second. Plus, i wouldn’t get paid for this one.
As being someone who currently and for the last 6 months or so has played casually 1-2 hours a day tops I’ve had my ascended set since the 2nd day it came out and if it makes anyone feel any better I see little to no difference in anything at all… I think people just really blow the “advantage” aspect out of proportion. Its just a big material sink… I could almost argue people who don’t make ascended armor have an advantage because they all possibly have 700 more gold than I do now…. which is no more ridiculous of a statement than “ascended armor ruined the game for me”….
I’ve never had more than 30G at once, i have 10G right now. If you play for 1-2 hours a day, and still have the money to buy your way through ascended, you must be flipping the TP, because i used to play every day for more than that and never managed anywhere near that much gold.
As being someone who currently and for the last 6 months or so has played casually 1-2 hours a day tops I’ve had my ascended set since the 2nd day it came out and if it makes anyone feel any better I see little to no difference in anything at all… I think people just really blow the “advantage” aspect out of proportion. Its just a big material sink… I could almost argue people who don’t make ascended armor have an advantage because they all possibly have 700 more gold than I do now…. which is no more ridiculous of a statement than “ascended armor ruined the game for me”….
I believe the only value in having a searchable armory with player info is to prevent the ability of players to freely make posts like this one.
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.This is because GW2 is the only mmo in the world that introduced vertical progression without introducing actual content to follow.
You get new tiers of gear in WoW so that you complete new raids.
GW2 still has the same old instances from years ago with nothing new on the horizon.But actually, when it comes to PVE speedruns the next balance patch is going to negate the benefits from ascended gear. 10% damage nerf for berserker builds is basically an ascended nerf. Anyone who cared about speedrunning already has ascended gear, and that nerf is going to bring them to the level of damage they used to do on exotics.
Ascended gear is an answer to the wrong question. It didn’t bring anything of worth to this game beside a mindless grind.
We grind for ascended berserker in PVE so that we can have the same power level we.. had on exotics? what a joke.
Won’t people in exotic berserker suffer the same penalty percentage? If so, ascended is still a damage upgrade.
Yes, sort of. People in ascended have no real loss as they at least break even with the nerf. People in Exotics never got the increase in stats so they have a net loss in stats. I’m leaning towards the nerf being a game balancing decision that allows them to not address buffing the environment. Eventually buffing the environment is something that must happen under vertical progression. That or simply taking away players hard earned stat increases with a nerf, of course. But, yeah, sad for those who chose to stay in Exotics.
Did you actually get stronger ?
Yes. You can now face tougher foes than you could previously. That is one definition of becoming stronger or better, the ability to accomplish that which was previously beyond your capability.
A chess player who practices a lot so that he wins more, increasing his ELO rating, will then be matched up against tougher opponents. The fact that he now faces higher rated opponents, more of a match for his new skill level, does not mean that he has not become a better, or, “stronger,” player.
That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.
There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.
You assume everyone will have a chance to make ascended gear, but the massive grind behind it will make a gap between those that can only log in occasionally (for reasons outside the game) and to have fun, from those who make GW2 their job.
If ascended was pve only, i wouldn’t care, but they screwed up majorly by allowing it in WvW.
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.
I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.
The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.
The goal to re-attain the GW player base was never a hidden agenda though (‘the game takes the best from GW1…’).
Re-read please, I didn’t say it was. I was proposing a hypothetical that would have involved:
- ANet stating pre-launch that even casual players should attain max stat gear by 80 and endgame pursuits would be cosmetic only.
- ANet deciding to implement low-curve endgame VP prior to launch and not telling anyone until months after launch.
This would be misrepresenting a product. I, for one, would find that reprehensible.
Please note, I’m not saying that ANet did this — but that this is what posters who claim ANet said, “Ascended was planned before launch but not publicized until November, 2012.” would have us believe.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.
I was asking for you to tell ME where other vertical progression in the game is. I can see it. I was just saying, that people get off the ascended items gripe train. It is a done deal. It is in game. If you want to complain about VP, then do it with things that are not implemented and here to stay. The ascended items threads are broken records.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.
I was asking for you to tell ME where other vertical progression in the game is. I can see it. I was just saying, that people get off the ascended items gripe train. It is a done deal. It is in game. If you want to complain about VP, then do it with things that are not implemented and here to stay. The ascended items threads are broken records.
Again, I have no issue with Ascended gear and don’t believe I have mentioned it as a problem, per se, anywhere. The title of the thread is “To ppl that asked for vertical progression”. I was addressing vertical progression. Many people are confused about the actual issue. It’s not Ascended gear, Ascended is just is stage 1 of VP and stage 2 of the power level of the game.
So, many people complain about Ascended gear because they don’t understand the actual issue. I agree with you; Ascended is here to stay. We should not be complaining about Ascended gear; we should be complaining about vertical progression—which is also here to stay unless they decide to remove it.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.
Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.
I was asking for you to tell ME where other vertical progression in the game is. I can see it. I was just saying, that people get off the ascended items gripe train. It is a done deal. It is in game. If you want to complain about VP, then do it with things that are not implemented and here to stay. The ascended items threads are broken records.
Again, I have no issue with Ascended gear and don’t believe I have mentioned it as a problem, per se, anywhere. The title of the thread is “To ppl that asked for vertical progression”. I was addressing vertical progression. Many people are confused about the actual issue. It’s not Ascended gear, Ascended is just is stage 1 of VP and stage 2 of the power level of the game.
So, many people complain about Ascended gear because they don’t understand the actual issue. I agree with you; Ascended is here to stay. We should not be complaining about Ascended gear; we should be complaining about vertical progression—which is also here to stay unless they decide to remove it.
I don’t have a problem with ascended gear either. But the way to aquire ascended gear is way too grindy and not acceptable. Being forced to craft is not okay.
Ascended gear is fine BUT extremely inconvenient, time-consuming and only one pathway to acquire except an extraordinarily rare chance with tequatl (which is in itself very difficult to beat since 99% of the time there’s either not enough people or not enough coordination to beat it).
That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.
There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.
Afraid that I have to disagree. Characters with the new vertical progression (whatever form it takes) are more powerful compared to the game world as a whole than those who have not acquired it (yet, or never will). In general only the newest content, filled with the newest foes, maintains any sense of power level comparable to the character.
Is a character with the new VP gear balanced against the new content ? Ideally, yes. Does that mean that he is not more powerful ? No. This is objectively demonstrable. Go into a game with VP. Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content. Compare the degree of difficulty in completing this content now, with the gear, to a period when you did not have the gear. Odds are you will complete the content faster, with fewer deaths, generally with greater ease. By definition this means you are stronger compared to that content than was previously the case.
Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content.
What’s the point? That you keep repeating old tier content when you get new gear, rather than doing new tier content, because you have a keen interest in playing games in easy mode? For all that matters you’re still pretty much on the same power curve, you never get stronger than [current content]. Old tier content is just obsolete in every way. It doesn’t drop [new tier gear] to boot.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
As being someone who currently and for the last 6 months or so has played casually 1-2 hours a day tops I’ve had my ascended set since the 2nd day it came out and if it makes anyone feel any better I see little to no difference in anything at all… I think people just really blow the “advantage” aspect out of proportion. Its just a big material sink… I could almost argue people who don’t make ascended armor have an advantage because they all possibly have 700 more gold than I do now…. which is no more ridiculous of a statement than “ascended armor ruined the game for me”….
Cool story bro. I have a flying dragon mount.
Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content.
What’s the point? That you keep repeating old tier content when you get new gear, rather than doing new tier content, because you have a keen interest in playing games in easy mode?
It was a demonstration that the character is more powerful with higher powered gear despite claims to the contrary.
Personally I prefer to play games that have different difficulty levels (such as GW1) only in hard mode. I have assisted guild-mates and friends by assisting with lower level content with which they are having difficulty, but generally am not doing so for my own sake. You might want to reread my post(s) as you seem to have developed a completely false opinion of my interests. I think that you will find that I have not once indicated a personal interest in easy mode or repeating old content.
Then why do you care so much about getting stronger in old content only? since progression is only about getting back to the power curve you had before progression in the new content.
One form of “progression” I could endorse is the introduction of new skills that would add new tactics necessary to beat fights. This kind of thing actually improves the gameplay. Inflating stats on gear doesn’t.
And you can do that without introducing extreme grinds ala ascended gear. In fact if ascended hadn’t been introduced to this game, upping the level cap (for new traits / trait rebalance), adding new skills or even a 4th utility skill to unlock when you get to [level 90 or 100] wouldn’t have been a big deal. It would be a big deal now because of the cost of armor/weapons and the fact that you’d have to spend 1K gold again if they ever do such a thing, since you’d need lvl 90 or 100 gear to replace your current setup. They can’t do that kind of thing too soon because the whole player base would be up in arms, including those who pretend to love ascended grind, if it was made obsolete juste a couple months after its introduction. So that kind of thing can only really happen at the end of the year, if not much later.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
Then why do you care so much about getting stronger in old content only?
I don’t. Never said I did. The reference to older content was merely a way of demonstrating readily that the character is more powerful relative to the world as a whole.
If it is handled properly (the way it often would be in a Pen and Paper game) gear progression is an indication of getting more powerful at the top tier as well. This is done by changing the nature of the opposition. Instead of facing Orcs with more hit points who hit for more damage at the new top tier you face larger menaces which brings home the sense of increased power level for your newly progressed character.
One form of “progression” I could endorse is the introduction of new skills that would add new tactics necessary to beat fights.This kind of thing actually improves the gameplay.
Completely agree. Adding elements to encourage players to grow their skill level is much more interesting to me than just inflating numbers.
Inflating stats on gear doesn’t.
To clarify, I never claimed that gear progression was a good thing. The addition of ascended gear in GW2 has me voting with my wallet. I spent approximately $100 per month on the game previously, now $0.
I was discussing the mechanics of gear progression and the impact on character power level, not the merits of such.
If it is handled properly (the way it often would be in a Pen and Paper game) gear progression is an indication of getting more powerful at the top tier as well. This is done by changing the nature of the opposition. Instead of facing Orcs with more hit points who hit for more damage at the new top tier you face larger menaces which brings home the sense of increased power level for your newly progressed character.
The comparison isn’t very apt though. By level 80 you’re already beating on dragons and such. Any attempt to tie lore to gear progression would make it look more like Dragon B-\|\|all Z (anti weird censor) rather than pen and paper.
There is a reason why the vast majority of pen&paper players didn’t really do uber high levels campaigns either. At some point it just becomes ridiculous since in d&d you could reach almost god-like level of existence which would work even less in a MMO with thousands of other god-like existences (thousands of other players). In d&d epic levels didn’t exactly reach a great level of success (in terms of players who actually did use the material). Some classes, like cleric, druid and in some ways wizard just became rather inane. The same level of progression in gw2 would have everyone being able to create portals like Scarlet and the world being filled to the brim with plane-walkers.
So, pen and paper increase the level of menace but at some point it becomes too ridiculous to be actual game material.
Most mmo tend to cover the vast majority of the lore-tied-to-progression on a reasonable level before new tier even gets added. I don’t think I want to see higher level of threat, and higher level of player power in terms of lore, than being able to bash dragons senseless and kill ancient, legendary creatures like Lupicus. We don’t need the “Epic Level” nonsense that comes from p&p like D&D where you reach a stage where you can just stroll around the planes like it’s nothing.
Which is why in most mmo you don’t really see more than very superficial higher level of threats. If you actually did it like pen and paper it wouldn’t take more than two new tiers of gear and levelling before you’d have to shut down the operation because you can’t let players become Gods, or just about as strong as the avatar of a God.
That would be like you in gw1 inheriting Abaddon’s powers rather than Kormir.
- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”
(edited by Nikaido.3457)
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.
I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.
The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.
The goal to re-attain the GW player base was never a hidden agenda though (‘the game takes the best from GW1…’).
Re-read please, I didn’t say it was. I was proposing a hypothetical that would have involved:
You’re free to give them the benefit of doubt, but to me and many other GW1 supporters, the situation is as clear as daylight. I’m not talking only gear or VP here, but more the pvp side of the game… however the game managed to turn extremely superficial and shallow in virtually all other aspects, too.
Talk about a 180° turn on the approach from GW1.
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
There’s no relationship between Achievers/Explorers and Vertical/Horizontal progression.
Achievers are described as “players that give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them”.
Any players devoted to farming for a cool skin (horizontal progression) is strictly an achiever.
An Explorer archetype appreciate horizontal progression through tons of classes, skills, traits and gear choices to mix, match and play with. On the other hand, they couldn’t care less about a cosmetic-type horizontal progression.
That’s not exactly true. All the types can farm for a new armor. The difference lies in the reason they do so – Achievers want to show off. Explorers want to look good. Socializers might do that because people they play with are doing the same. Killers do that for the stat advantage only, they are the one group that is not interested in looks at all.
I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch. Anyway, this is ancient history but here’s Mike O’Brien in the AMA he did after launch & the announcement of Ascended gear…
“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.” – Mike O’Brien, Nov. 2012
for the question he was responding to and for the rest of his response:
for the rest of the AMA:
“Why 250 mats? That’s really core here. It’s fine to say that non-cosmetic VP isn’t supposed to be grindy or outside the reach of normal players, but then we price some new items at 250 ectos with no other ways to get them, and it’s hard to interpret it as other than that. That’s a mistake. The design team has committed to fixing that.
~ MO"
Lol, “The design team committed to fixing that” a year later, still not fixed.
So committed!
That’s one of the reasons why i’m not very hopeful about CDI (or other dev interactions) so far. Actions speak louder than words. So far, there’s been lot of beautiful words, but actions paint a different, much more ugly picture.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)