To ppl that asked for vertical progression...
Again, I have no issue with Ascended gear and don’t believe I have mentioned it as a problem, per se, anywhere. The title of the thread is “To ppl that asked for vertical progression”. I was addressing vertical progression. Many people are confused about the actual issue. It’s not Ascended gear, Ascended is just is stage 1 of VP and stage 2 of the power level of the game.
So, many people complain about Ascended gear because they don’t understand the actual issue. I agree with you; Ascended is here to stay. We should not be complaining about Ascended gear; we should be complaining about vertical progression—which is also here to stay unless they decide to remove it.
I’m not sure why you are debating this with me then. When I posted my original post it was to say to others (not you) that were bringing up ascended gear to move on. I agree with you. Debate it with the ones who do not. I don’t need an explanation of VP. I get it.
There’s no relationship between Achievers/Explorers and Vertical/Horizontal progression.
Achievers are described as “players that give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them”.
Any players devoted to farming for a cool skin (horizontal progression) is strictly an achiever.
An Explorer archetype appreciate horizontal progression through tons of classes, skills, traits and gear choices to mix, match and play with. On the other hand, they couldn’t care less about a cosmetic-type horizontal progression.That’s not exactly true. All the types can farm for a new armor. The difference lies in the reason they do so – Achievers want to show off. Explorers want to look good. Socializers might do that because people they play with are doing the same. Killers do that for the stat advantage only, they are the one group that is not interested in looks at all.
Every player, even a killer archetype (which I admit is a bit tricky, since they might even want to look as “noob” as possible), has a good reason to get a skin that makes them look better.
Looking good (or different) is not tied to any kind of player in particular. If anything, it caters to Socializers which is the archetype where RPs are included.
Archetypes just try to describe the kind of game experience players enjoy the most (and no player belongs strictly to one single archetype), so it’s all about the process behind that good looking skin.
Let’s think, for example, on a Legendary weapon (just as a skin, ignoring the fact that they’re ascended weapons now).
Explorers would probably find some of the required tasks (world completion, maxed crafting, dungeon and WvW tokens, …) quite enjoyable and effortlessly done.
They could also enjoy figuring out the best spots to farm different materials (and get a good amount of each farmed while trying different builds for it). However, the vast amount of required materials on top of the way Gw2 economy works (everything is about figuring the best spot to farm “gold”), forces players to a grindy execution that an explorer will never enjoy.
If we would be looking at some non-legendary expensive skin (easily reducible to a huge amount of gold), the process would be completely unappealing to Explorers. They might want it (every archetype could), but they won’t get any fun on getting it.
Since they enjoy chasing the carrot on the stick, Achievers are the most suited for this kind of task.
Once they have decided they want that Legendary, they’ll enjoy every step, no matter how grindy, that brings them closer to it. Since no player is strictly 100%/0% an achiever, we will have a “grind tolerance” instead, which will be higher the closer to a pure achiever the player is.
Finally, as you said, Socializers could enjoy the process if it’s relaxed and allow them to play/chat with friends and other people in the meanwhile. Killers are the less likely ones to enjoy it (probably just the WvW badge part), but that’s mostly because the game doesn’t cater to killers at all (they are mostly a open world FFA PvP thing).
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.
Then the worst offender, WvW, you deal more damage, take less and you’ll be against many many people who will be in full exotic gear because the grind is so ridiculous to some it’s just not possible to get there (my case), or because they got tired of their mains and want to go on alts, or because they want to try new builds.
Exactly. Aioros. It is so ridiculous. Some people were saying it would take them 10 months. And then there’s the cost of doing 2 weapons where classes use mainhand offhand combos who have to farm twice as much all for the ability to be stronger in places that this gear wasn’t supposed to be for. It was originally meant for Fractals for AR.
I also find it funny that people often call this vertical progression when in fact it’s a grind. It’s the very thing they said they wouldn’t do with the game, turn it into a grind for gear where everything is so ridiculously out of reach or you spend all your time trying to get the gear you need to compete.
To me it’s bad in the sense that here we are with patches that are supposed to be all about the story. Well most people probably won’t be enjoying the story because they’ll be too busy grinding away trying to get the mats (especially in cases where they do actually play WvW which is where this gear does give an advantage). So which do they want do they want people to constantly think about gear when they login or do they want people to think about the story and enjoy the content without a care in the world about gear?
That’s my question. And if indeed they do want people who perform better in dungeons/fractals why aren’t the benefits of having Ascended gear limited to solely dungeon/fractal purposes? why don’t the stats increase only when you enter the dungeons/fractals or why don’t they decrease/become unusable when you go to WvW?
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?
In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.
The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.
Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.
Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.
All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.
Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.
“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.
Then the worst offender, WvW, you deal more damage, take less and you’ll be against many many people who will be in full exotic gear because the grind is so ridiculous to some it’s just not possible to get there (my case), or because they got tired of their mains and want to go on alts, or because they want to try new builds.Exactly. Aioros. It is so ridiculous. Some people were saying it would take them 10 months. And then there’s the cost of doing 2 weapons where classes use mainhand offhand combos who have to farm twice as much all for the ability to be stronger in places that this gear wasn’t supposed to be for. It was originally meant for Fractals for AR.
I also find it funny that people often call this vertical progression when in fact it’s a grind. It’s the very thing they said they wouldn’t do with the game, turn it into a grind for gear where everything is so ridiculously out of reach or you spend all your time trying to get the gear you need to compete.
To me it’s bad in the sense that here we are with patches that are supposed to be all about the story. Well most people probably won’t be enjoying the story because they’ll be too busy grinding away trying to get the mats (especially in cases where they do actually play WvW which is where this gear does give an advantage). So which do they want do they want people to constantly think about gear when they login or do they want people to think about the story and enjoy the content without a care in the world about gear?
That’s my question. And if indeed they do want people who perform better in dungeons/fractals why aren’t the benefits of having Ascended gear limited to solely dungeon/fractal purposes? why don’t the stats increase only when you enter the dungeons/fractals or why don’t they decrease/become unusable when you go to WvW?
A massive grind for a tiny reward. Bad idea is bad.
As a player who hates hitting the brick wall that is ‘vertical progression.’ The grind needed in this game for acquiring the need materials for ascended, is just a drop in the ocean compared to other MMOs, when gearing for end game. Not to mention, you do not have to gear purely for both PvE and PvP. Your desired PvE build can work just fine in WvW. Not that WvW takes much skill anyway, what does the ascended/exotic ratio matter anyway? The biggest zerg wins, and that’s that.
Now if you think ascended gear makes that much of a difference and it is ruining the game for you, then by all means leave. But bear in mind, the stat difference isn’t even worth thinking about.
People are waaaay too attached to numbers. Guild Wars is not about that, but ofcourse the ex-WoW crowd, who single handedly changed the game to cater to themselves while Anet completely disregarded it’s own fans, are responsible for the addition of vertical progression. Alot of these people try to treat all other MMOs as WoW, and that’s where the problem lies. They’ve gotten so used to it’s style and mechanics, it’s influenced them to play like it in whatever big MMO comes next.
Anet needs to bring back their originality and step away from the mainstream. That’s what made GW1 such a unique game in a sea of MMO clones.
Still waiting for the things I love about GW1.
That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.
There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.
Afraid that I have to disagree. Characters with the new vertical progression (whatever form it takes) are more powerful compared to the game world as a whole than those who have not acquired it (yet, or never will). In general only the newest content, filled with the newest foes, maintains any sense of power level comparable to the character.
Is a character with the new VP gear balanced against the new content ? Ideally, yes. Does that mean that he is not more powerful ? No. This is objectively demonstrable. Go into a game with VP. Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content. Compare the degree of difficulty in completing this content now, with the gear, to a period when you did not have the gear. Odds are you will complete the content faster, with fewer deaths, generally with greater ease. By definition this means you are stronger compared to that content than was previously the case.
That’s true in WoW or any game that obsoletes old content through VP. Anet balances the environment against the player base power. Otherwise you would have trivialized content and no one wants that. And, your argument sounds an awful lot like segmenting the player base by player power and then calling that a good thing. It’s not in terms of the GW franchise philosophy (I’m not sure about the current Anet philosophy).
Bottom line you can’t be stronger than the environment—it will be adjusted as player power increases. And, yes, you can be stronger than players that don’t ride the treadmill. Ordinarily, it’s essentially not allowed by traditional grindy games. But, I’m not sure how much of the player base thinks that grinders should be rewarded with more power than casual players. No, VP works exactly as I said. And, the progression is purely illusion. It’s just numbers on a character sheet.
Those that say Vertical Progression/gear grind is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression/gear grind?
All those games are about PvP. That’s why they don’t need vp. Gw2 SPvP mode does not need VP either. But the PvE side of the game… I don’t want to go there but it pretty obvious that you can’t create long lasting PvE experience without time sinks and goals (that’s why gw2 achievements exist).
Also you’re forgetting that gw1 was all about endlessly progressing on the GvG leaderboard (ant that’s a vertical progression right there).
If the leader boards don’t give you tangible, mechanical benefits, most folks would NOT call it vertical progression.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Those that say Vertical Progression/gear grind is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression/gear grind?
All those games are about PvP. That’s why they don’t need vp. Gw2 SPvP mode does not need VP either. But the PvE side of the game… I don’t want to go there but it pretty obvious that you can’t create long lasting PvE experience without time sinks and goals (that’s why gw2 achievements exist).
Also you’re forgetting that gw1 was all about endlessly progressing on the GvG leaderboard (ant that’s a vertical progression right there).
Even though there is a lot of pve content- the profession design, their focus for balance and the overall quality of pve compared to pvp give me the impression GW2 is mostly about PvP too. PvE is just a piece of candy on the side. Just my opinion though.
Anyway, there is a difference between VP as your single cause and goal for PvE and VP as a tool or feature to enhance it. If you only play PvE (“grind”) to prepare your character’s / 2nd character’s gear and level for let’s say PvP then that PvE is a waste of time. On the other hand, if you play PvE for the sake of it because you enjoy exploring or stomping evil / big kitten creatures with your avatar then you’re not wasting your time even if VP and grind is involved.
GW2 offers alot of the latter, for your first playthrough at least, but things get old pretty fast. There is still too much repetition, no other goal between playing casually for fun and reaching max level asap and all those little grind optimizers make it hard to immerse yourself in the game (e.g. waypoints, meaningless events etc).
I have to point out that Anet tried to tone that down with personal / living story, relativization of power, reduced importance of gear etc… but they could only do so much. The real problem is the fact that this game still relies on numbers for mininum 50%(proably more) of the combat and crafting, while it offers almost nothing aside from those 2.
Even without a strong focus on pvp (which we do have undoubtly), people will think about ways to improve their effectiveness at some point in the game. The first answer in every MMORPG to date including GW2 is still quality of gear (huuuge difference between the masterwork pieces your first char reaches lvl 80 with and ascended gear). Second place is still your stat focus and thrid is your build.
After you’ve taken care about #1 + #2 the only way to improve even further is to optimize your build, which means drop elements you want to play in favor for elements which are strong in current balance situation. (example: turret engi builds)
At this point the game is all about bad VP. Either you go for it then (games like RO) or you try to squirm out of this mess like GW2 tried. There is nothing wrong with the first way for many people (including myself) but I wish there was a clear alternative (which gw2 is not).
(edited by Escadin.9482)
GW2 PvP focused? No dueling, no open world PvP server, only one game mode for sPvP, forced crafting to reliably obtain best in slot gear to use in WvW… and you call this PvP focused? I call it PvP fail!