Guild Wars 2

NewTrain.7549:

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

The real “fact” is that those that want “more challenging content” mostly just want stuff
that 95% of the playerbase will never have a chance to get, so that they can show off
how great they are.

And THAT is what i am against.

I personally like both easy and difficult content (I don’t always want to do hard stuff 24/7, but I certainly do like challenges), but I’d prefer it if difficult content was limited to smaller groups or individual play. It’s frustrating when Anet tries to implement overly difficult content on a large scale, like with world bosses, because your success or failure is dependent on the coordination a multitude of other random players and is no longer subject to personal skill. At the very least, it’s fine if these events are hard in a more typical sense, but it goes without saying that an event doesn’t necessarily have to demand a lot of coordination to be difficult (a good example is Mark 2 Golem. It’s easy to die during the event, so it is difficult in a sense, but it doesn’t require any coordination, so you won’t necessarily fail it because of other less experienced players).

In the end, it’s all about balance. It is possible to cater to both hardcore and casual players at the same time, it only becomes an issue when you try to mix the two groups together and force them to work with each other.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I personally like both easy and difficult content (I don’t always want to do hard stuff 24/7, but I certainly do like challenges), but I’d prefer it if difficult content was limited to smaller groups or individual play. It’s frustrating when Anet tries to implement overly difficult content on a large scale, like with world bosses, because your success or failure is dependent on the coordination a multitude of other random players and is no longer subject to personal skill. At the very least, it’s fine if these events are hard in a more typical sense, but it goes without saying that an event doesn’t necessarily have to demand a lot of coordination to be difficult (a good example is Mark 2 Golem. It’s easy to die during the event, so it is difficult in a sense, but it doesn’t require any coordination, so you won’t necessarily fail it because of other less experienced players).

In the end, it’s all about balance. It is possible to cater to both hardcore and casual players at the same time, it only becomes an issue when you try to mix the two groups together and force them to work with each other.

This post reflects how I feel almost perfectly.

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

No .. god forbid there is ONE single MMO out there that don’t caters to the “moar challenge – better rewards” folks.

There are masses of MMOs out there that have those kind of stuff .. but as long as
there is one out there that is different some people wouldn’t stop to turn it into
the same like everything else.

Beldin.5498:

Harper.4173:

Beldin.5498:

Ohoni.6057:

1. I’m not a fan of “hard” content. I like challenge, but not challenge that assumes that a large number of players will never be able to do it.

2. Having an event in which you need to get something right 12 times in a row, and failing it even once can kill you, is not “hard,” it’s just tedious

3. DPS checks are not hard.

4. If content requires large masses of people to succeed, but having a minority of the players fail can cause the entire thing to fail, that is not hard content, it is just frustrating content. If at least half the people know what they’re doing, an event should succeed, the more people that know what they’re doing, the faster it succeeds. In large group events, difficulty should be measured on a personal level, on whether you can survive the action, not on the average skill level of the entire group.

5. Hard content is not “superior” content, it’s just content some people like more. If you are the type that enjoys “hard” content, that does not make you better than those that prefer casual, and you do not deserve better rewards just because you enjoy “hard” content.

6. If you have to bribe people to do “hard” content with cool rewards, then people don’t want to do “hard” content, they just want cool rewards.

Great post … totally agree with all that .. especially #5 and #6

People want cool rewards that say something.
Like the Lyadri mini.

Number 5 and 6 points are totally wrong in my opinion.
More work = more and better rewards. Just like anything else in life – the better you are and the harder you work the more you should earn.

People don’t actually enjoy repeating hard content – but enjoy getting rewards that make them stand out.
If everyone has the same rewards – how do you stand out?

MMOs are all about vanity – and there’s no point in being the same as the next guy.
If you’re more skilled, more dedicated, more invested into an MMO you’re going to want to have the means to show it off.
Usually through :

1) Better rewards – more cash means more vanity items faster.
2) Unique rewards – that say " i did this and am proud of it "

If you take that away you’ve taken a lot of motivation from a lot of players.

I’m just a person who doesn’t play content anymore if i don’t enjoy it. So i don’t even
do any instanced dungeons anymore since i was never a fan of them, but for long time
i forced myself to do them in other games just for the rewards.

So i picked up GW2 because i read that this game doesn’t force me to do content
i don’t like, and could still get most of the best stuff. And i don’t want that to change.

Also if i already read things like more work .. it is a GAME .. not a job .. my god.

Whoever wants soo much that hard content .. Wildstar was created just for you
and i heared it does soo well because it caters only to the hardcore crowd.

And how can’t you get most if not all of the “best stuff” doing normal “casual” content?

You can ride the champion trains all the way to ascended gear and legendary weapons – hell – lots of people have already.

You can Coil Farm in Frostgorge with a 100% success rate for very good rewards with 0 risk ,0 time invested preparing, 0 requirement for any skill or team effort.

Mash #1 to win.

You’ve missed some points regarding GW2 and I’ll try to explain :

1)While it’s easy to get “most of the good stuff” there should be some stuff that’s only there for dedicated and skilled players. It gives people something to work towards.
Not everything should be incredibly easy to get.

You can get exotics extremely easy in this game.

And who said that the “good stuff” also includes rare and unique rewards such as maybe skins?
Why should everyone have everything without working for it?

I don’t mind if people afk-braindeadfarm #1 champ trains in the open world and have the same gear as me ( legendary and ascended) – I recognize GW2 is the game where people shouldn’t have a significant stat advantage over others but I should be able to earn some exclusive and unique rewards – skins, titles, flashy animations because of my time, skill and dedication.

I don’t know how else to put it – but you understand what I meant.

More work = more effort = more dedication towards the game – more commitment – that sort of thing.

While I agree that GW2 should be a level playing ground stat-wise I disagree that a player who plays 1 hour every day should have the same rare items, shiny items and general wealth as a player who puts in 6-10 hours every day.

This is not about the game catering to casuals or hardcore players. It’s about creating rewards aimed at both these categories to motivate them to :

1) Improve their game.
2) Push their limits as players
3) Invest more time in the game and keep them playing.

Beldin.5498:

NewTrain.7549:

Beldin.5498:

I’m just a person who doesn’t play content anymore if i don’t enjoy it. So i don’t even
do any instanced dungeons anymore since i was never a fan of them, but for long time
i forced myself to do them in other games just for the rewards.

So i picked up GW2 because i read that this game doesn’t force me to do content
i don’t like, and could still get most of the best stuff. And i don’t want that to change.

Also if i already read things like more work .. it is a GAME .. not a job .. my god.

Whoever wants soo much that hard content .. Wildstar was created just for you
and i heared it does soo well because it caters only to the hardcore crowd.

Seriously, what kind of attitude is that? The addition of challenging content wouldn’t affect you at all, yet you still don’t want it added to the game. What about other people’s enjoyment, eh?

What about if i want to get 100 Gold whenever i log in ? it wouldn’t affect you but
i bet you also don’t want it .. right ?

What i don’t want is just that they don’t create content wher those ub0r players can
farm 10 times more money than others .. and of course not that too much developer
ressources are spent for a small minority. If they create content for just 1% of the
playerbase .. then they can use 1% of dev-ressources for that .. but not 20% or more.

1) You have no idea what the percentages are – so stop pulling figures out of thin air.
2) I really don’t understand people like you – you’re hateful just because others have more time and can play better/more effectively.
So what if better players get better rewards ? Don’t people who are better at things in general get more rewarded ?

Why should this game give the exact same rewards to all its players regardless of performance and dedication to the game?

Beldin.5498:

NewTrain.7549:

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

The real “fact” is that those that want “more challenging content” mostly just want stuff
that 95% of the playerbase will never have a chance to get, so that they can show off
how great they are.

And THAT is what i am against.

THAT is the reason people play MMOs.
Why should you care that they can get stuff you can’t? What exactly is the problem?

Why this " If I can’t get it – it shouldn’t exist and nobody should be able to get it" attitude?

We already have legendary weapons and ascended armor that are hard to get – so it’s not like Anet is against the concept of having stuff in game that some players will never have.

Why exactly must you be entitled to everything in a game just because you bought it?

Harper.4173:

Beldin.5498:

NewTrain.7549:

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

The real “fact” is that those that want “more challenging content” mostly just want stuff
that 95% of the playerbase will never have a chance to get, so that they can show off
how great they are.

And THAT is what i am against.

THAT is the reason people play MMOs.
Why should you care that they can get stuff you can’t? What exactly is the problem?

Why this " If I can’t get it – it shouldn’t exist and nobody should be able to get it" attitude?

We already have legendary weapons and ascended armor that are hard to get – so it’s not like Anet is against the concept of having stuff in game that some players will never have.

Why exactly must you be entitled to everything in a game just because you bought it?

What evidence do you have that that’s the reason people play MMOs. I mean logically if only 5% of the people get that stuff, then wouldn’t only 5% of the players want the game to be that way?

Do you think the other 95% people are sitting there going, it’s good those guys can get that stuff, because I don’t want it?

Because I don’t.

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

You do realize that :

1) Nobody wants better gear – just exclusive skins and more rewards.
2) People who play the TP are already making more money than all the casuals and hardcore players combined.

3) More difficult content in the game wouldn’t be forcing you to play it – you can play the content you like at the relaxing pace that you like.

I’ll say it again.

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

And to those saying that " why should you earn more money for playing harder content" I will answer : Why not?

People play the trading post – which requires 0 interaction with either casual or hardcore content and make a gratuitous amount of money without ever killing a mob – but that’s perfectly ok to all the casuals.

The moment people want to kill mobs that aren’t as easy as afk and spam #1 for a rewards that are just a bit better or exclusive – the casuals go mad.

Why?!

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

They really cannot add more difficult content since then a percentage of the player base would either not be able to get past it or they would struggle and take a considerable amount of time. Just look at the final instance of the last two living story episodes. There were threads of people saying those boss fights were too difficult.

Harper.4173:

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

So .. you want still those rarer rewards .. that means anybody else get less new armor/weapon skins because the designers have to spent a lot of their time just to create stuff that only the elite crowd can get.

And you don’t see where the problem is ?

We should all be happy and say : yay .. great you get new stuff all day long while we get nothing instead .. cause we are just so bad gamers that don’t deserve it ?

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Beldin.5498:

Harper.4173:

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

So .. you want still those rarer rewards .. that means anybody else get less new armor/weapon skins because the designers have to spent a lot of their time just to create stuff that only the elite crowd can get.

And you don’t see where the problem is ?

We should all be happy and say : yay .. great you get new stuff all day long while we get nothing instead .. cause we are just so bad gamers that don’t deserve it ?

The solution to this particular problem would be to simply have scalable content, as is the case with Fractals of the Mists. You can either play it on lower levels if you’re a more casual player or want easier content, or play it at higher levels if you want to get more rewards faster, and enjoy a challenge.

Grevender.9235:

is there anything that relates harder content with it being interesting/highly replayable? (it’s an honest question, ‘cause I don’t see a logic link between the two factors)

That’s an interesting question.

In theory, harder content demands more out of the player making the best use of the battle system. Conditions, boons, stun breaks, timed dodges, interrupts, etc. If a battle system is designed around those elements, and yet they are absent from 99% of the enemy encounters, then we can safely assume that the combat system is not acchieving its full potential, which in turn it’s not as satisfying and fun as it could have been.

However, there’s such a thing as a middle ground between mindless auto-attacking zergs and niche super difficult content. I’ll even go as far as to say that I refuse to believe that challenging content can’t appeal to casuals. It all depends on either the company can or can not hit that middle ground spot.

Another user has sait it best: what this game lacks the most, is fun mechanics. Something that makes battles more creative, more engaging, more distinct from each other, even if that does not exactly translates into “high difficulty” content.

GW2 needs to make better use of its combat system. Which is not an easy to thing to acchieve, by itself, when so many of its core mechanics are broken (condition stacks, defensive stats, defiance, poor infrastructure for party supporting, spammy skills, poor balance, etc).

Beldin.5498:

Harper.4173:

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

So .. you want still those rarer rewards .. that means anybody else get less new armor/weapon skins because the designers have to spent a lot of their time just to create stuff that only the elite crowd can get.

And you don’t see where the problem is ?

We should all be happy and say : yay .. great you get new stuff all day long while we get nothing instead .. cause we are just so bad gamers that don’t deserve it ?

Actually if you understood how GW2 works and how it monetizes its assets you would realize that this is not a waste of resources.

Let me explain :

The more a player spends time in GW2 the more he’s likely to buy stuff in the gem store.
That’s why Anet has created dailies, monthlies and the living story – to keep people coming in day after day, hour after hour to increase their chances of players spending cash in the gem store.

Let me tell you another thing – there’s a very high chance that hardcore veteran players that take the game very seriously and put in 6-10 hours of gameplay a day will spend more cash in this game than you average casual who logs in now for an hour or two and may log in a few days later.

So yes – that investment is sound. At least it is in my opinion.

I have casual friends – they haven’t spent a fraction of what I’ve spent on the game so far.

Also – common sense also helps – if a player plays more he’ll get more stuff ( as in volume) and sooner or later will need to expand his storage ( gem store) – even the most basic of assumptions can make you understand that players who care a lot about the game will spend a lot in the game.

The problem – is that the casual crowd is hateful and bitter for no reason.
Nobody was up in arms when they announced a PVP-tournament exclusive armor that only pro teams would get – but when there’s the hypothetical possibility of new skins being rewarded to hardcore players first – people get upset.

There could be ways in which even casuals are not excluded from these skins – I wrote out a system a few weeks ago – where the hardcore would get the skins faster but the casual could get a easy daily tidbit done in order to get the skins over a long period of time.

Also I don’t see you getting mad over the AP Radiant and Hellfire skins. Or the skins that are gem store exclusive.

Again – why are you so biased?

It’s the players that are the problem. Not anet. If I remember correctly (it’s been two years or so since the advert) WvW was supposed to be “different” battles with each “world” coordinating their own defenses and attacks….ie small groups defend this castle here, small groups attack that caravan over there, larger groups try to attack there while another large group try to defend our own. Unfortunately players realized it was just easier to zerg the areas and ended up turning WvW into zergfest.

Tequatl can usually be done as long as you get an a “good map”. So a player gives up an hour of game play so they can be on a good map and taxi their guildies and friends 15 minutes before Tequatl shows up.

Triple worm is much more difficult and requires coordinated game play. People will try to “camp it” but usually coordinated guilds are trying to get their own map so all of their team mates can be together. So getting on a “good map” is just luck if you don’t belong to a specific guild.

Dry top has several tiers, but again…you have people only trying to get into an already successful Tier 5 or 6 map instead of trying to coordinate something with the map they are on. If they can’t find a successful tier 5 or 6 they just move on to some other content.

I don’t believe zergfest was the way Anet envisioned their game being played. There is nothing wrong with it though in the open world. For those that want more “challenges” then PvP, dungeons, fractals, and specialized guild events exist for that purpose.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

Beldin.5498:

Harper.4173:

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

So .. you want still those rarer rewards .. that means anybody else get less new armor/weapon skins because the designers have to spent a lot of their time just to create stuff that only the elite crowd can get.

And you don’t see where the problem is ?

We should all be happy and say : yay .. great you get new stuff all day long while we get nothing instead .. cause we are just so bad gamers that don’t deserve it ?

lets say they handled it like SAB. you can get this version which is almost exactly the same, with a longer term method. The special versions have some slight small change, like pallete swap, or extra animation, perhaps a texture swap

for example:
lets say they made new content X. every time you beat content X (normal casual way) you get 1-3 tokens of token(depending how well you do). When you get 50 tokens you can buy armor X. Now if you do the more difficult version you can get 6-9 tokens.
If you successfully beat hidden Boss monster Y, he has a random chance of dropping Armor X beta (low chance). Beating him unlocks an npc that will sell you Armor X beta for 100 tokens.

The difference between armor X beta, and armor X is that armor X has a dragon embroidered on the chest piece.

even a casual can get armor X beta, if he saves his tokens, and beats the hidden boss Y one time. The ones who are good, get it by drop, or faster. Everyone who gets the special dragon version of the armor (just a texture swap) beat hidden boss Y at least once.

As i came to gw2 i had moderate skills at mmo games at best. Sure.. i played other mmos before, enjoyed some more.. and some shouldnt be talked about. I remember my first experience with gw2 dungeons… the AC one to be precise (story mode). Was in there on lvl 30 cause i got a letter that told me to check it out.. and the group i was in with got their kitten handed to them (all arround lvl 30-35). We all had no experience on what to do and how to do it, two of that group never even played an mmo before in their lives. It was a pain in the kitten …till we sorta noticed we can do combos together, buff and heal eachother and we used this to our advantage. The warrior noticed that with a hammer he can CC the annoying and everhealing monks, the ele learned how important it is to swap attunements and use stuff like the ice bow and mist form, me (the engi) got a massive education about combo fields and so on. We got better and better through the run and if we hit an obstacle we couldnt defeat (such as the troll and the lovers) we sat down and talked it over, adjusted our builds (traits cause back then you couldnt change it on the fly), changed our equipment and prepared to face the threat till we pulled through. As we lolslapped the ghost king to the floor and finished the dungeon we felt like the masters of the universe… seriosly.. ill never forget that feeling that we got after that 4 hour failure of a dungeon run that probably every sane person had left after 20 minutes. We stood there with broken armors, our tiny inventories stuffed to the top with loot. We all got stronger… maybe not in level or equipment to a noteworthy level but we got stronger in understanding our class and how to use it together with fellow players so that all benefit from it. We grew together as a team and we had fun.. A LOT of fun. Back then it was challenging. Today i run that dungeon solo here and there for the nostalgia…cause that group i had moved on to more challenging games. I cannot blame them, they where not challenged enough. It wont bring them back to add harder content… but eventually many new(er) players will be where veterans are and will look for a new challenge to face… and like the vets right now they wont find much, will get bored, pack their stuff and venture out to new adventures…in other games. Im not saying that easier stuff isnt alright… of course it is. Many people play the game casually, many people love to gang up on champs, many people love to run in an army of their kin and these players deserve as much attention as anybody else…but a-net shouldnt forget about the ones that want to be punished if they kitten up, about the ones that want to be one shot killed at a wrong move, the ones who want to drag themselfes covered with bruises and cuts with one arm towards the final loot chest.

Thats atleast my opinion on this.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

Yeah nobody would be forced to do harder content. What on earth could it reward that would be so amazing? Unique skins? Sell them on the shop too, or have a reward vendor sell them for raw gold. It’ll never pay out more than tp flipping or farming, which is perfect for people that enjoy zero challenge (well maybe not the tp part, I suck at it.)

To not desire more difficult content is puzzling. Especially here, in this freak show mix of a good combat system and terrible combat. Are people really that bad? I can’t believe that.

@phys
I have no problem with the SAB stuff or even the Tequatl stuff .. the question is if people who “work hard” think thats enough for their “hard work” .. and maybe not not exclusive enough for such “hard work” ^^

I am all about more difficult content. Liadri was awesome. Heck, I found the Norn dude right before Poyaqui[SIC?] to be really difficult and that was fun. I think things like the stuff I just mentioned are great.

My two cents boils down to this: Give us tough content to play, but don’t offer exclusive rewards for it. That way you see who actually wants tough content.

Conversely, if ArenaNet decides to offer tough content and there aren’t exclusive rewards and then no one plays said content, you will know that the player base isn’t after the tough content, but the rewards that go with it. If that is the case then there is no reason to offer tough content. Just make it all easy so everyone can get it. It reminds me of that line from the bad guy in “The Incredibles”: “When everyone’s super, no one will be.”

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

problem is, we already do boring stuff to get what we want in this game.
Tp merchant game, boring(to many)
Champ train (boring)
EOTM (boring)
Ascended mats (boring)

Why are these boring things aok, and if you dont like them you shouldnt do them(even though its less effecient), but doing challenging content to get better rewards is inherently wrong.

why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?

Coldtart.4785:

Pve is scripted, if you’re looking for challenge in pve you’re looking in the wrong place.

A good script never gets repetitive. Some good games have scripted fights with enough randomization to be always different and challenging, unpredictable. GW2 is the same as playing Simon and that is why it gets easier and easier the longest you play it.

The mechanics are there; they only need to know what to do with it.

Iason Evan.3806:

I am all about more difficult content. Liadri was awesome. Heck, I found the Norn dude right before Poyaqui[SIC?] to be really difficult and that was fun. I think things like the stuff I just mentioned are great.

My two cents boils down to this: Give us tough content to play, but don’t offer exclusive rewards for it. That way you see who actually wants tough content.

Conversely, if ArenaNet decides to offer tough content and there aren’t exclusive rewards and then no one plays said content, you will know that the player base isn’t after the tough content, but the rewards that go with it. If that is the case then there is no reason to offer tough content. Just make it all easy so everyone can get it. It reminds me of that line from the bad guy in “The Incredibles”: “When everyone’s super, no one will be.”

What if people like challenge, and they like reward?

It really doesnt make sense to give the same reward for doing something harder than doing something easy.
sure a few people will do it, but they wont do it much, MMOs time is a consideration. People have a finite amount of time to get everything they want. Even if you enjoy something more, most people will do the thing that is more effective.

If you really wanted to compare which people want more, you would have to have a situation where there is no reward in either case.

But they have done this type of test already, and most people will do it easy, and then never do it again. Because their is little satisfaction in doing an easy task for most people.

lets be honest, people would not be doing the easy stuff for no reward either. We already know how many groups wandered the world killing champions when they dropped the same thing as a regular monster.

So yeah, people can want challenge AND reward

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

problem is, we already do boring stuff to get what we want in this game.
Tp merchant game, boring(to many)
Champ train (boring)
EOTM (boring)
Ascended mats (boring)

Why are these boring things aok, and if you dont like them you shouldnt do them(even though its less effecient), but doing challenging content to get better rewards is inherently wrong.

why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?

Well, the question becomes if it’s hard enough for the top 5% and 95% can’t get that stuff, you’re pressuring 95% of the fan base.

Would you rather lose 5% of your playerbase, or 10% of 95%.

I’m not saying those are the right numbers, but the idea applies. You don’t risk the bigger percentage, you risk the smaller one. At least you do if you want to maximize your profits.

Vayne.8563:

Well, the question becomes if it’s hard enough for the top 5% and 95% can’t get that stuff, you’re pressuring 95% of the fan base.

Would you rather lose 5% of your playerbase, or 10% of 95%.

I’m not saying those are the right numbers, but the idea applies. You don’t risk the bigger percentage, you risk the smaller one. At least you do if you want to maximize your profits.

things have degrees, and top 5% wouldnt be the ones you are aiming for. Right now the most rewarding activities are aimed at top 90%. You can get the best rewards following and literally spamming 1 in eotm, before that, queensdale and frostgorge champ trains. Paths in dungeons where people figured out how to win via spamming attacks blindly without moving in specific standing spots.(at least they had to find the spots, and strats)

And your percentage theory is off here, because this is a game that wants to have replayability. Things are replayable when they have depth. Pool would not be a replayable game if all you had to do was put the balls in the hole with your hand. People learn and adapt to the level of the game, if the game does not have that depth, they will quit.

The only way to keep people entertained without some sort of challenge/depth, is to make new content constantly, or make them grind for something they really really want. The game is mostly about C, which is in general the least satisfying method of entertainment for many people.
the second one is hard for the developers
the first in combination with the others is the best bet.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Well, the question becomes if it’s hard enough for the top 5% and 95% can’t get that stuff, you’re pressuring 95% of the fan base.

Would you rather lose 5% of your playerbase, or 10% of 95%.

I’m not saying those are the right numbers, but the idea applies. You don’t risk the bigger percentage, you risk the smaller one. At least you do if you want to maximize your profits.

things have degrees, and top 5% wouldnt be the ones you are aiming for. Right now the most rewarding activities are aimed at top 90%. You can get the best rewards following and literally spamming 1 in eotm, before that, queensdale and frostgorge champ trains. Paths in dungeons where people figured out how to win via spamming attacks blindly without moving in specific standing spots.(at least they had to find the spots, and strats)

And your percentage theory is off here, because this is a game that wants to have replayability. Things are replayable when they have depth. Pool would not be a replayable game if all you had to do was put the balls in the hole with your hand. People learn and adapt to the level of the game, if the game does not have that depth, they will quit.

The only way to keep people entertained without some sort of challenge/depth, is to make new content constantly, or make them grind for something they really really want. The game is mostly about C, which is in general the least satisfying method of entertainment for many people.
the second one is hard for the developers
the first in combination with the others is the best bet.

I’m not even disagreeing with you, per se. However, I am cautioning that the kind of challenging content and rewards I believe most of the hard-core players in this thread are asking for is quite different.

They think the dungeons as they stand are basically easy…and I don’t think most of the playerbase finds that to be true. Some do…sure. But not most.

So it’s a word of caution. Particularly if the rewards are the kinds of things everyone wants.

One or two things people can’t get…no problem. I don’t have the liadri mini and I might never. But if there were 10 of those things? 20? 30? Eventually I would start to feel this game wasn’t for me. And that’s the danger.

@Vayne
If you are worried about the 95% then those players don’t need to do the content(see how that works?:) They have other content that they can do.
GW1 was successful because people had fun doing DoA, FoW, UW and other “Elite” missions. Was it a gear grind? No!!! It was purely cosmetic.
If GW2 were to implement a “Elite” style dungeon(s) that are fun and rewarding, it would not only give that 5% some much needed new and exciting content but also push the 95% to get better at the game then just face roll zerg or stack and smack.

Challenging content and content that the entire player base can complete are not mutually exclusive. Why are we talking about percentages able to complete here? Do you have a mouse, a keyboard, a working brain and some hands or feet? If so, you can complete any content this game has to offer. Maybe it’ll take longer for some, but nevertheless, hard content doesn’t equal exclusive content.

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

LOl. Come on Vayne. Do you really believe this? Some people have a challenge just getting out of bed in the morning? Give me a break man….seriously Vayne, you’re reaching with this one.

I don’t see what harm it would be to have some areas where people could work together in small groups to do more challenging content and get elevated rewards. As long as this content didn’t provide game breaking gear, what’s the harm in it?

I don’t get why so many are against this line of thinking. No one is advocating across the board harder game just some further challenges within the game as it is today.

Stormcrow.7513:

@Vayne
If you are worried about the 95% then those players don’t need to do the content(see how that works?:) They have other content that they can do.
GW1 was successful because people had fun doing DoA, FoW, UW and other “Elite” missions. Was it a gear grind? No!!! It was purely cosmetic.
If GW2 were to implement a “Elite” style dungeon(s) that are fun and rewarding, it would not only give that 5% some much needed new and exciting content but also push the 95% to get better at the game then just face roll zerg or stack and smack.

I’m glad you think you know why Guild Wars 1 was successful. I’m not sure that that’s the case however.

It’s just a guess…and it’s certainly not my guess.

Azathor.2845:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

LOl. Come on Vayne. Do you really believe this? Some people have a challenge just getting out of bed in the morning? Give me a break man….seriously Vayne, you’re reaching with this one.

I don’t see what harm it would be to have some areas where people could work together in small groups to do more challenging content and get elevated rewards. As long as this content didn’t provide game breaking gear, what’s the harm in it?

I don’t get why so many are against this line of thinking. No one is advocating across the board harder game just some further challenges within the game as it is today.

I’m not reaching at all. Do you realize the age of the average gamer is now over 30. It’s a different generation.

Why do you think raiding games are on the slide. No one has time for that stuff anymore…well not no one, but much fewer people. We’ve grown up, gotten married. I’m 52 years old, not 16. I’m past the point where I need to push my boundaries, and you know, that’s strongest when you’re younger and fades as you get older…for most people anyway.

And more women are playing the game these days. My guild is like half women. Half. The women in my guild aren’t looking for serious competition.

I’m reaching because you think kids are the people playing these games?

Give ME a break.

Harper.4173:

Why should this game give the exact same rewards to all its players regardless of performance and dedication to the game?

Why it shouldn’t? It’s a kitten game…

phys.7689:

why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?

It’s not inherently wrong. It’s just a different gaming philosophy, one to which most MMO’s are dedicated, but not every player likes. This game was made for people that didn’t like this approach, and is one of the very few such MMO’s on the market.
Basically, there’s nothing wrong in wanting to eat meat, but that doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to make all vegetarian restaurants add meat to their meals. Or to come to such restaurant and complain because they serve only vegetarian food.

phys.7689:

Iason Evan.3806:

I am all about more difficult content. Liadri was awesome. Heck, I found the Norn dude right before Poyaqui[SIC?] to be really difficult and that was fun. I think things like the stuff I just mentioned are great.

My two cents boils down to this: Give us tough content to play, but don’t offer exclusive rewards for it. That way you see who actually wants tough content.

Conversely, if ArenaNet decides to offer tough content and there aren’t exclusive rewards and then no one plays said content, you will know that the player base isn’t after the tough content, but the rewards that go with it. If that is the case then there is no reason to offer tough content. Just make it all easy so everyone can get it. It reminds me of that line from the bad guy in “The Incredibles”: “When everyone’s super, no one will be.”

What if people like challenge, and they like reward?

It really doesnt make sense to give the same reward for doing something harder than doing something easy.
sure a few people will do it, but they wont do it much, MMOs time is a consideration. People have a finite amount of time to get everything they want. Even if you enjoy something more, most people will do the thing that is more effective.

If you really wanted to compare which people want more, you would have to have a situation where there is no reward in either case.

But they have done this type of test already, and most people will do it easy, and then never do it again. Because their is little satisfaction in doing an easy task for most people.

lets be honest, people would not be doing the easy stuff for no reward either. We already know how many groups wandered the world killing champions when they dropped the same thing as a regular monster.

So yeah, people can want challenge AND reward

I agree. My point is, I think a lot of people want challenging content because it means they can get a reward that not many people can get. I am just trying to identify the thrust of this thread. The OP is asking for challenging content. Is that all we want? You answered that question, but is it the quest or the reward that we are after? Luke Skywalker’s goal was the path. Han Solo’s goal was the payoff. ArenaNet’s designs seemed torn atm. We are getting more content right now for people that want instant gratification. I am more of a Luke Skywalker type. Rewards are cool and all that, but at the end of the day, it’s the challenge that attracts me. That’s why I spend a good bulk of my game time on the BLTC. It’s the most challenging content in the game.

I would be very happy with more challenging content that offered the same reward as the easier content.

The beauty of GW2 is that it doesn’t – in most cases – force you play one game activity more than another to get the shiniest loot. You can log in and choose what to do based on how much you enjoy doing it – not because you feel you have to. Adding meaningful elite loot rewards (beyond minis, titles and slightly altered skins) would take away some of that freedom for many of us. I dont want to see that in this game.

That said, I am very much in favor of adding more difficult content to the game.

Kythan Myr.4719:

1. Do you think there is already enough challenging content that requires strategy and coordination in this game?

2. If Anet did design more challenging content, would there even be enough players to play it?

3. Is the zerg mentality too strong to even prevent some development?

4. What would more challenging content in GW2 look like?

1. Well, there can never be enough challenging content. However, it is also important to keep in mind that “challenging” is a very subjective term. Someone that just started playing GW2 recently and just hit lvl 80 will most probably find Arah explorable mode to be very challenging (to say the least). But someone who has been playing since launch and completed it hundreds of times probably wont. So I think you can´t answer this question with a simple yes/no.

2. Yes I think so.

3. Zerging only applies to open world content and I personally don´t really have a problem with it. Something that maybe could be improved a bit is cancelling out boss mechanics through mass-stacking. Would be nice to encourage people to stay on the move and be a bit more active instead of standing in one position spamming skills on cd. Aside from that, I think it would be stupid to design more open world boss encounters that require only a handful of people to complete it – that´s what dungeons are for.

4. What I personally would like see is…

• 4.1 More challenging solo content: E.g. a “hard-mode” revamp of the PS which would give me incentive to complete it on some of my toons and more arena-style encounters like the “Shadow of the Dragon” boss fight from the last chapter of the LS (I enjoyed that one a lot) or Liadri from the Queen´s Gauntlet
• 4.2 New dungeons (!) and serious reworks of some of the existing ones (!!!!) without all the time-gated kitten and more engaging boss fights
• 4.3 More world boss events like Triple Trouble or the Marionette, BUT not until there is a guarantied way of getting e.g. people of the same guild onto the same map (aka make “guild-raids” happen pls). Or, at least give us a queue system for megaservers, so that we can actually see if we are wasting our time or have a realistic change of getting onto the desired map. Spamming the join-button for 30+ minutes to be able to play with your friends/guildies/community and then not be able to because of “bad luck” is not fun.

/2cents

@Harper: I play this game for fun – as others have stated: I make my own rules, I rarely “just smash #1”. I am able to do what I want because I can get the best gear by not doing one certain event – and I like that. I don’t need “the best skins” – what’s that anyway? My main ran around in exotic starter gear because I liked the look best – I got a lot of hate for that actually and when I got ascended I thought about making it into starter gear again – just to kitten people off. I don’t need the “best rewards” as usually playing is enough for me.
So please don’t say “people want this or that” as I’m pretty sure there are a lot like me around.
And although I don’t really try to make gold I have it – without doing dungeons without doing more than 10 world bosses a week, without doing EotM, without “flipping the TP” oh and without doing champ trains.
Maybe you should try to make some friends outside of your fractal circle.

Harper.4173:

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.

I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

There’s a big difference between rewards that are purchased and rewards that are exclusive to specific content. There’s also a difference between impatient and patient players. With gold-based reward systems, those who have to have the rewards soonest will seek the best gold return for time which usually also is the best return for effort spent. Other players will play what they like and be content just taking longer to get those rewards.

Then, there’s exclusive rewards. You may or may not want those type of rewards, but some posters have asked for more challenge linked to exclusive rewards. Classic raids are a prime example. Whether the exclusive rewards are vertical/power-based or horizontal/cosmetic, there will be people doing the content not because they enjoy the challenge, but because they want the reward. I believe that was what Vayne was referring to — not gold-based rewards.

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

Harper.4173:

We want harder content with better rewards ( as in quantity) and with rarer rewards ( as in unique skins. WE DO NOT WANT BETTER STATS. We do not want vertical progression.*

So .. you want still those rarer rewards .. that means anybody else get less new armor/weapon skins because the designers have to spent a lot of their time just to create stuff that only the elite crowd can get.

And you don’t see where the problem is ?

We should all be happy and say : yay .. great you get new stuff all day long while we get nothing instead .. cause we are just so bad gamers that don’t deserve it ?

lets say they handled it like SAB. you can get this version which is almost exactly the same, with a longer term method. The special versions have some slight small change, like pallete swap, or extra animation, perhaps a texture swap

for example:
lets say they made new content X. every time you beat content X (normal casual way) you get 1-3 tokens of token(depending how well you do). When you get 50 tokens you can buy armor X. Now if you do the more difficult version you can get 6-9 tokens.
If you successfully beat hidden Boss monster Y, he has a random chance of dropping Armor X beta (low chance). Beating him unlocks an npc that will sell you Armor X beta for 100 tokens.

The difference between armor X beta, and armor X is that armor X has a dragon embroidered on the chest piece.

even a casual can get armor X beta, if he saves his tokens, and beats the hidden boss Y one time. The ones who are good, get it by drop, or faster. Everyone who gets the special dragon version of the armor (just a texture swap) beat hidden boss Y at least once.

This is somewhat along the line of what I proposed – easy daily token for casuals – more tokens for more difficulty for the hardcore.

Either way – everyone gets their stuff. Just depends on when and how exclusive it is.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

Can you stop bringing up WoW and raiding? I’ve already explained that the " pressure" that gear grinding puts wouldn’t be a factor since you wouldn’t need these rewards to be viable or wanted – like was the case in wow.

I also think people have a right to decide for themselves what content they want and do not want to do. How much they want to farm. What they want to play and if they want to do content they dislike just for the rewards.

I’m sure you mean well – but taking away the choice isn’t helping anyone really. People are still subjecting themselves to what you mentioned in GW2 every day.

From dungeon runs in dungeons we’ve done hundreds of times to farming EOTM for those ranks and karma.

Don’t think it’s not happening already – the whole point is to give people in the hardcore crowd something to work for while still allowing it to be attainable by casuals.

I would be happier if the content was more interesting and engaging—hey—you asked

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

snip

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

snip

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

snip

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

Can you stop bringing up WoW and raiding? I’ve already explained that the " pressure" that gear grinding puts wouldn’t be a factor since you wouldn’t need these rewards to be viable or wanted – like was the case in wow.

I also think people have a right to decide for themselves what content they want and do not want to do. How much they want to farm. What they want to play and if they want to do content they dislike just for the rewards.

I’m sure you mean well – but taking away the choice isn’t helping anyone really. People are still subjecting themselves to what you mentioned in GW2 every day.

From dungeon runs in dungeons we’ve done hundreds of times to farming EOTM for those ranks and karma.

Don’t think it’s not happening already – the whole point is to give people in the hardcore crowd something to work for while still allowing it to be attainable by casuals.

I’m bringing up WoW because pressure is pressure and the same kind of pressure would be exerted here.

If you push people and they don’t enjoy the trip, some will leave. The more people that leave, the less people play the game, which is worse for everyone. There is an inherent risk in putting something into the game that a small percentage might like but a larger percentage might feel compelled to do.

Players are often their own worst enemy. My son wanted a legendary weapon. He ended up spending real money to get the gold to get mats to make it. He made it and stopped playing the game. He thought he knew what he wanted…he was wrong.

Experience shows that people WILL do stuff they don’t like to get a reward, but each time they do it, it takes a bit away from their enjoyment of the game, until eventually people walk away. It’s the risk you take putting those types of rewards in the game.

You say people should have freedom to choose. What if they make this change, it causes people to leave the game and there are less people playing? What if my choice was to rather have more people playing than these changes I don’t care about.

A person’s freedom ends where that freedom affects other people. This isn’t a democracy and we don’t get a vote. It’s Anet’s game. If they think enough people are interested, they’re going to make that content. If they think enough people will be disenfranchised by it, they won’t.

Nothing I say here, either way, is likely to change that.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

snip

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

snip

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

snip

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

Can you stop bringing up WoW and raiding? I’ve already explained that the " pressure" that gear grinding puts wouldn’t be a factor since you wouldn’t need these rewards to be viable or wanted – like was the case in wow.

I also think people have a right to decide for themselves what content they want and do not want to do. How much they want to farm. What they want to play and if they want to do content they dislike just for the rewards.

I’m sure you mean well – but taking away the choice isn’t helping anyone really. People are still subjecting themselves to what you mentioned in GW2 every day.

From dungeon runs in dungeons we’ve done hundreds of times to farming EOTM for those ranks and karma.

Don’t think it’s not happening already – the whole point is to give people in the hardcore crowd something to work for while still allowing it to be attainable by casuals.

I’m bringing up WoW because pressure is pressure and the same kind of pressure would be exerted here.

If you push people and they don’t enjoy the trip, some will leave. The more people that leave, the less people play the game, which is worse for everyone. There is an inherent risk in putting something into the game that a small percentage might like but a larger percentage might feel compelled to do.

Players are often their own worst enemy. My son wanted a legendary weapon. He ended up spending real money to get the gold to get mats to make it. He made it and stopped playing the game. He thought he knew what he wanted…he was wrong.

Experience shows that people WILL do stuff they don’t like to get a reward, but each time they do it, it takes a bit away from their enjoyment of the game, until eventually people walk away. It’s the risk you take putting those types of rewards in the game.

You say people should have freedom to choose. What if they make this change, it causes people to leave the game and there are less people playing? What if my choice was to rather have more people playing than these changes I don’t care about.

A person’s freedom ends where that freedom affects other people. This isn’t a democracy and we don’t get a vote. It’s Anet’s game. If they think enough people are interested, they’re going to make that content. If they think enough people will be disenfranchised by it, they won’t.

Nothing I say here, either way, is likely to change that.

But, people didn’t leave wow, more and more came, but wow is wow

Vayne.8563:

Azathor.2845:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

LOl. Come on Vayne. Do you really believe this? Some people have a challenge just getting out of bed in the morning? Give me a break man….seriously Vayne, you’re reaching with this one.

I don’t see what harm it would be to have some areas where people could work together in small groups to do more challenging content and get elevated rewards. As long as this content didn’t provide game breaking gear, what’s the harm in it?

I don’t get why so many are against this line of thinking. No one is advocating across the board harder game just some further challenges within the game as it is today.

I’m not reaching at all. Do you realize the age of the average gamer is now over 30. It’s a different generation.

Why do you think raiding games are on the slide. No one has time for that stuff anymore…well not no one, but much fewer people. We’ve grown up, gotten married. I’m 52 years old, not 16. I’m past the point where I need to push my boundaries, and you know, that’s strongest when you’re younger and fades as you get older…for most people anyway.

And more women are playing the game these days. My guild is like half women. Half. The women in my guild aren’t looking for serious competition.

I’m reaching because you think kids are the people playing these games?

Give ME a break.

I’ll be 40 in April. I’m not a kid either but I still like raiding.

I don’t understand why this game cant have things for casual players and for players who want something more to do.

I don’t get what the big deal is?