Too few players wanting difficult content?
It took me a year to get the Dungeon Master title. Its something that i don’t have fond memories of. 10/12 hours of beating my head against the clockwork boss in TA Aetherblade path because the mobs don’t like they should or the scorpion zipline doesn’t pull the mobs as intended and then the insane amounts of un-dodgeable attacks the boss does…. It all leads me back to the same PvE fallouts that WAR had and leads me to believe that the content is really just a scenic route to WvW, where the difficulty is based on the situations you put yourself in.
Its just like the temperature. To one person, it may be too cold. Too another, too hot. Me myself, i think this game’s strengths lie in the exploration and WvW. The rest of it is a failed attempt to make something that doesn’t quite work correctly.
Arena Nets are used to catch Gladiator Fish.
Yes, but it’s purely a subjective matter whether YOU consider your statistical performance to be more important to YOU than your cosmetics, titles, or minipets. You don’t need ideal stats to do anything in this game, you can participate in endgame content in greens, so stat bonuses aren’t that big a deal. Plenty of players really care how they look though, so you cannot say that there is anything about this game’s rewards that is objectively “more important” than any other, it’s all only as important as you believe it to be.
As stated above, it’s a battle of different playerbase subsets on what change would be more/less desirable a change.
The reason I am bringing up that statistical performance is only because of the double standards many deploy when arguing against or in favour of a particular feature, often times invoking the ’it’s a minimal change in stats’ card, which can just as easily be turned around.
Many claim that the end-game in GW2 is cosmetics, which however should make you at least somewhat concerned given the sheer number of gem-shop only items – as that basicaly turns the game into a morphed version of p2w – because if stats are minimal and irrelevant, then cosmetics/minipets are the new progression, depending on player’s perspective.
And yet if someone’s game is “gotta catch’em all,” then putting insurmountable (for them) obstacles in their way would be hindering their game, MUCH more than not giving them access to top-tier stats.
But the completionists arguably have a lot more things to keep them entertained than the other side does, so why would it be so wrong adding something for another group, which likely even includes a greater number of players.
You try to use dispassionate, logical-sounding words to frame your arguments, but the actual content of your argument is anything but. You are making a clear case that you believe the things you would prefer to see are more important than the things others would prefer to see. That’s fine, but own up to it.
See above~
That doesn’t mean I’ll “try harder” to get them, I mean I tried that Liadri thing a few times, decided I didn’t enjoy banging my head against the wall and stopped, even though I had thousands of tickets to spend. I’d still like a Liadri mini though, it still annoys me that beating Liadri was the only way to get it, and that doing so was such a frustrating waste of time. I would not like to see even more content similarly bound up.
I’d say you just did/do not want them enough then. But it’s bad design to have the item available only ‘the hard way’. As the original poster suggested, the item should be obtainable in multiple ways.
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.
No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
The main Q Harper was asking, and which (to my knowledge) remained unanswered was why was it inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards.
I have answered that already (on page 2, maybe that’s why you missed it)
why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?
It’s not inherently wrong. It’s just a different gaming philosophy, one to which most MMO’s are dedicated, but not every player likes. This game was made for people that didn’t like this approach, and is one of the very few such MMO’s on the market.
Basically, there’s nothing wrong in wanting to eat meat, but that doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to make all vegetarian restaurants add meat to their meals. Or to come to such restaurant and complain because they serve only vegetarian food.
Basically, phys and Harper come to the vegetarian restaurant and demand meat, then get surprised when other people react with displeasure.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
Then people will be trading value based on what they feel items(different tasks) are worth. If everything is obtainable anywhere, and buyable, you essentially assure that the only measure will be how much overall gold you can grind in the easiest way possible, Which will tend to make anything boring and degenerative after awhile.
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
Then people will be trading value based on what they feel items(different tasks) are worth. If everything is obtainable anywhere, and buyable, you essentially assure that the only measure will be how much overall gold you can grind in the easiest way possible, Which will tend to make anything boring and degenerative after awhile.
Really?
So in your mind, doing anything you want is this awful thing, while pigeonholing rewards at (whatever) narrow niche is awesome.
Yeah, no. Do you ever wonder why you dont HAVE TO clean toilets to get a TV?
And you again proved that you are not interested in actual content but only the reward.
Unfortunately, people asking this have proven again and again (even in this thread) that content or difficulty isnt really what matters.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
(edited by MikaHR.1978)
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
The main Q Harper was asking, and which (to my knowledge) remained unanswered was why was it inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards.
I have answered that already (on page 2, maybe that’s why you missed it)
why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?
It’s not inherently wrong. It’s just a different gaming philosophy, one to which most MMO’s are dedicated, but not every player likes. This game was made for people that didn’t like this approach, and is one of the very few such MMO’s on the market.
Basically, there’s nothing wrong in wanting to eat meat, but that doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to make all vegetarian restaurants add meat to their meals. Or to come to such restaurant and complain because they serve only vegetarian food.Basically, phys and Harper come to the vegetarian restaurant and demand meat, then get surprised when other people react with displeasure.
the game was never sold as a vegetarian restaraunt though, in fact they said dunegeons would be highly challenging and have unique rewards. (they do have unique rewards, but their challenge has not kept up with the skill of the playerbase) They went out of their way to say they have something for everyone.
This game wasnt meant to be a game designed for gold farm, thats why they have repeatedly nerfed many gold farms.
However they are not that good at achieving their goals, gold farm degenerative play is always the most played, when they nerf people find the next best thing. Dungeons havent been challenging for most the people running them for some time, and the best rewards for dungeons come from the most degenerative dungeons.
a lot of this is because they choose the wrong ways to reward players, they encourage type of play through rewards that they dont want players to have, and most of the content offers nothing that you wouldnt get more effeciently by buying gold.
This goes beyond difficulty. Its actually faster to grind gold, than to farm silk. More money earned from the easiest dungeon path in the game, than the hardest fractal.
And since there is comparitively nothing that is only obtained through specific means, the people who hunt items dont really set its value.
Point is it doesnt matter, catering to the 5% who must have every item with low effort, is actually more damaging than catering to the 5% who want raids.
Again, you’re either misusing terms or misunderstanding the situation, but there hasn’t been any call for making every item available with low effort, just for making it available with a low skill threshold. The low-skill method of acquiring items could require considerably more effort, just effort put forth diligently by a player who doesn’t have the physical and/or mental dexterity to engage in high skill gameplay.
My guess is people would meet the challenge and after awhile regularly do this content for better rewards.
It depends on how entertaining it is though. There are plenty of activities in the game that are more rewarding than my current rotations, but not as much fun (for me), so I don’t do them.
The reason I am bringing up that statistical performance is only because of the double standards many deploy when arguing against or in favour of a particular feature, often times invoking the ’it’s a minimal change in stats’ card, which can just as easily be turned around.
Not exactly. “minimal change in stats” is a thing, I mean if you increase someone’s DPS by 2% then they kill things very slightly faster, and while that might matter to some people, it’s still numbers on a spectrum. Cosmetics and other rewards don’t exist on any sort of spectrum. You can say “you can have 99% of all the mini-pets, but that 1% is for me alone,” and that 1% minipet might be more important than any other to an individual person, because it’s the one they want. That locked-out skin might be the very best skin for that player to use. You don’t have anyone saying that they’d give up their first 5000 Power in exchange for the last 100, but you might see players offering to trade in hundreds of mini-pets for one mini that they really want.
Many claim that the end-game in GW2 is cosmetics, which however should make you at least somewhat concerned given the sheer number of gem-shop only items – as that basicaly turns the game into a morphed version of p2w – because if stats are minimal and irrelevant, then cosmetics/minipets are the new progression, depending on player’s perspective.
Again, for more players it’s not a numbers game, it’s about getting the specific thing they want, rather than getting access to everything. And yes, there are plenty of complaints around about what is on the cash shop, but that’s ultimately an entirely separate discussion.
It’s also worth noting that for many players, getting a gem store skin through gameplay alone is actually easier than getting some rarer items. One Wreath of Cooperation helm skin cost 56 gold in gems through the gem store, which is a decent amount, but for many players this would be considerably easier than acquiring a Wurmslayer Helm skin.
But the completionists arguably have a lot more things to keep them entertained than the other side does, so why would it be so wrong adding something for another group, which likely even includes a greater number of players.
Again, adding hard content is fine. They can add hard content. They just can’t give that had content unique rewards that would be kept out of the hands of players that don’t want to or cannot do the hard content. The rewards can be larger in quantity than through other activities, to make it worth the time spent on it, but should not contain items that cannot be earned through other means.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
Then people will be trading value based on what they feel items(different tasks) are worth. If everything is obtainable anywhere, and buyable, you essentially assure that the only measure will be how much overall gold you can grind in the easiest way possible, Which will tend to make anything boring and degenerative after awhile.Really?
So in your mind, doing anything you want is this awful thing, while pigeonholing rewards at (whatever) narrow niche is awesome.
Yeah, no. Do you ever wonder why you dont HAVE TO clean toilets to get a TV?
thats what gold is for.
gold is supposed to the means of exchange whereby people can choose the value of various activities.
Now if a small % of non essential reward is dedicated to people who have certain playstyle, that isnt horrible.
I find it odd though that people complain about this idea, when they have already gated essential items AND high value cosmetic items, behind specific playstyles.
Once again it comes down to the completionist who wants things easily versus the people who want challenging content. Both are edge case players.
The problem is the completionist who wants things easily, has an overall negative effect on the economy and design of the game when you cater to him. While the challenging content player does not.
snip snip snip
And you are absolutely right, the peopl who only want to do most efficient thing will always do most efficient thing, whatever that may be, easy/hard/long/short it doesnt matter at all. But since those are really small group, they dont really matter.
You dont ever look at big picture and just look at small pieces. Unfortunately devs cannot afford that as they have other 99% too satisfy to, in more than 1 way.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
To sum up Harper’s point(s) so far:
In adding unique rewards linked to challenging content, a player would not be forced to obtain a special pet, title, or cosmetics, as it would not reduce or hinder their viability/desirability of their class nor the ability to play the game as such.Yet many oppose adding challenging content with unique rewards – even if it would not constitute gear threadmill or other forms of vertical progression – merely because they would
1) feel "compelled/forced to get it (however that is an ’it’s all in your head’ issue), and/or
2) they might not be able to obtain it (although it is generally agreed that completionists are a minority of the playerbase).However these same players have no issues with pvp-only rewards nor with gem-store additions, and much else with the ill-designed rewarding system (the most rewarding content atm seems to boil down to Tp flipping, Champ train, EOTM and Ascended mats, which can be summed up as rather boring and extremely unchallenging ways of playing the game).
Dat sense, much logic.No. Vayne specifically seems to okay ascended gear as if it were somehow any different than cosmetic rewards (pvp-only rewards were not mentioned, from what i can see). That is only Vayne, though. I think it is equally bad as the unique rewards tied to difficult content. And while i do agree, that not everything is okay with gemshop, and that the reward system in this game is not that good, the fact that you can buy most of things for gold is actually okay (as it allows for getting them through multitude of options, instead of locking them behind only one).
Yes, farming is boring, and a better reward system is desperately needed. Some gemshop problems (like having lot of more valuable items from the shop hidden behind rng, for example), as well as disparity of introducing new skins to gemshop compared to the game should also be looked at. But at the same time having unique rewards hidden behind high difficulty content (or any single narrow playstyle) is also bad – whether they are purely cosmetic, or offer stat advantage.
There’s no hypocrisy in this.
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
Then people will be trading value based on what they feel items(different tasks) are worth. If everything is obtainable anywhere, and buyable, you essentially assure that the only measure will be how much overall gold you can grind in the easiest way possible, Which will tend to make anything boring and degenerative after awhile.Really?
So in your mind, doing anything you want is this awful thing, while pigeonholing rewards at (whatever) narrow niche is awesome.
Yeah, no. Do you ever wonder why you dont HAVE TO clean toilets to get a TV?
thats what gold is for.
gold is supposed to the means of exchange whereby people can choose the value of various activities.Now if a small % of non essential reward is dedicated to people who have certain playstyle, that isnt horrible.
I find it odd though that people complain about this idea, when they have already gated essential items AND high value cosmetic items, behind specific playstyles.
Once again it comes down to the completionist who wants things easily versus the people who want challenging content. Both are edge case players.
The problem is the completionist who wants things easily, has an overall negative effect on the economy and design of the game when you cater to him. While the challenging content player does not.
And still you dont understand. Its NOT about few people that want it this or that way lol. In the big picture they DONT really matter.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
Not quite. I’d rather see the items being more easily acquirable directly, than through gold farming. I just don’t want that direct method require high difficulty, or be limited to only a single playstyle (well, both could be possible if it would not be that much easier than farming gold, i guess). Nothing should also be locked behind low % rng, with no alternate way to obtain it.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
No argument there, besides that it should never be only a single playstyle, and it should require at best moderate difficulty. Current dungeon armor, for example, is good (tokens instead of rng, most players can do it if they actually put some effort into it, and is alternatively available through pvp reward tracks. Is not sellable, but we can’t have everything i guess).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
So I’ve said a number of times, I’d have no real issue with harder content if the rewards were sellable.
It would give people who like hard content something to do. It would give people who don’t like hard content something to farm for.
Those who say they want hard content would have stuff to do. But I get the distinct feeling that people are so resistant to it, because they just want to show off in a video game.
I’ve said it as a compromise several times in this thread, and people still say I’m against hard content being added to the game.
I’m against rewards being added to the game that only a small percentage of people can get…and you know, I’ll probably do the hard content myself anyway. I almost never buy rewards. But I really do think it will affect the game.
And it was the standard in Guild Wars 1 anyway. Guild Wars 1 players would be right at home.
Point is it doesnt matter, catering to the 5% who must have every item with low effort, is actually more damaging than catering to the 5% who want raids.
Again, you’re either misusing terms or misunderstanding the situation, but there hasn’t been any call for making every item available with low effort, just for making it available with a low skill threshold. The low-skill method of acquiring items could require considerably more effort, just effort put forth diligently by a player who doesn’t have the physical and/or mental dexterity to engage in high skill gameplay.
My guess is people would meet the challenge and after awhile regularly do this content for better rewards.
It depends on how entertaining it is though. There are plenty of activities in the game that are more rewarding than my current rotations, but not as much fun (for me), so I don’t do them.
i dont really have a problem with rewards that you can achieve through easier means through more work.
However, i dont think it would be that damaging to have some small variation of an item that requires you to actually beat something hard.
Im guessing you didnt like the idea of the special color SAB skins? I thought it was fine to have a pallete swap for actually doing the harder content.
However, if they HAD to choose (which i dont think they do) I would prefer challenging content that has rewards that are much easier to get through challenging play, but also obtainable by doing something easier for longer periods, or slower.
Mostly i want challenging content that i can play without it being in direct opposition to what will get me the most reward for my time.
The reason some people suggest uniques, is it gives you rewards that can be valuable, but arent tied to their current focus on extremely high grind, that they feel an item must have to be of value. No one has to worry about over production of account bound liadri pets, or have their value lower based on other peoples perceptions. Yellow SAB skins mean you mastered SAB. And people who get good at this cant put a time value on it, because the item they get from it has no time value.
when they decided an item must be valuable, the halloween II it, or ascended cloth armor it. People who want challenge, often dont like extremely grindy goals, because they become easy after awhile. Non uniques of value will always be designed by the economy/item guys to be grindy, because their rarity will determine their value.
by doing it the way you suggest, you ensure that the game will always be about whatever is the most effecient gold farm.
Not quite. I’d rather see the items being more easily acquirable directly, than through gold farming. I just don’t want that direct method require high difficulty, or be limited to only a single playstyle (well, both could be possible if it would not be that much easier than farming gold, i guess). Nothing should also be locked behind low % rng, with no alternate way to obtain it.
If everything is tradeable (which im not saying is the worst thing in the world) you should actually go out of your way to make items directly obtainable through specific playstyles.
No argument there, besides that it should never be only a single playstyle, and it should require at best moderate difficulty. Current dungeon armor, for example, is good (tokens instead of rng, most players can do it if they actually put some effort into it, and is alternatively available through pvp reward tracks. Is not sellable, but we can’t have everything i guess).
if the items are tradeable, it wouldnt be a problem if things are hidden behind higher difficulty, because the other means of obtaining them would be the TP. And lets be honest, even if an item is hard to get, people will have people who help them go past their limits.
If the items are not tradeable, i would reccomend that the changes be small, like texture/pallete swaps. or small insignias, ripped version etc. Even though i didnt get to play world 2 SAB, i had no problem with the concept that yellow skins was for hard modes only.
So I’ve said a number of times, I’d have no real issue with harder content if the rewards were sellable.
It would give people who like hard content something to do. It would give people who don’t like hard content something to farm for.
Those who say they want hard content would have stuff to do. But I get the distinct feeling that people are so resistant to it, because they just want to show off in a video game.
I’ve said it as a compromise several times in this thread, and people still say I’m against hard content being added to the game.
I’m against rewards being added to the game that only a small percentage of people can get…and you know, I’ll probably do the hard content myself anyway. I almost never buy rewards. But I really do think it will affect the game.
And it was the standard in Guild Wars 1 anyway. Guild Wars 1 players would be right at home.
my main beef is not the show off aspect. Its because unique reward items are automaticaly exempt from ingame economic descions. Lets take dungeon skins, because they have no value in money, they can make require you to beat a dungeon 15 times for a set. However, if they were unique items for the general economy, and they wanted them to have value, they would require something like 10000 items or make it low drop rate, and thus the gold option would be like 200 gold.
So then you would either have to grind this content, or grind gold. Having unique items is the only way that things have even a chance of not being designed grindy, and yet still mean something to get.
If only 5% of the population is interested in raids in LOTRO, i think only 5% of the population is interested in getting every visual/mini/title in the game. So its a battle of the completitionist who doesnt like hard content versus the people who like hard content, neither of them = the majority of players.
What do you suppose is the difference between the content development resource allocation between mini-pets and raids ?
People keep saying that a casual player will not be impacted by the introduction of optional more hardcore content with unique rewards… This would only be true if Anet had infinite development resources for the game. As it stands putting content designers etc into producing hardcore content, which (assuming it is not just more HP for the same sort of extremely casual content we see now) generally requires more time and effort than casual content, means less content for the casual minority.
Now I personally think that allocating some resources to developing harder content (with appropriate rewards) is worth the effort. In some cases this provides some longevity of gameplay even for casual players. But claiming that reducing content development for casual players will not affect them is ludicrous.
If only 5% of the population is interested in raids in LOTRO, i think only 5% of the population is interested in getting every visual/mini/title in the game. So its a battle of the completitionist who doesnt like hard content versus the people who like hard content, neither of them = the majority of players.
What do you suppose is the difference between the content development resource allocation between mini-pets and raids ?
People keep saying that a casual player will not be impacted by the introduction of optional more hardcore content with unique rewards… This would only be true if Anet had infinite development resources for the game. As it stands putting content designers etc into producing hardcore content, which (assuming it is not just more HP for the same sort of extremely casual content we see now) generally requires more time and effort than casual content, means less content for the casual minority.
Now I personally think that allocating some resources to developing harder content (with appropriate rewards) is worth the effort. In some cases this provides some longevity of gameplay even for casual players. But claiming that reducing content development for casual players will not affect them is ludicrous.
This is probably why most times harder content uses pre existing resources, (hardmode) or an instance that uses creatures, spells, and background art that also exists somewhere else. Hard content doesnt usually require much more work than having a level designer with a different focus iterate on a design.
Which means, its generally isnt stealing much resources from casual players.
btw raids is not the definition of challenging. They can have easy 8-20 player content and hard 8-20 player content.
Just look at most of the world bosses in the game, the amount of players in there has nothing to do with difficulty at all.
(edited by phys.7689)
If only 5% of the population is interested in raids in LOTRO, i think only 5% of the population is interested in getting every visual/mini/title in the game. So its a battle of the completitionist who doesnt like hard content versus the people who like hard content, neither of them = the majority of players.
What do you suppose is the difference between the content development resource allocation between mini-pets and raids ?
People keep saying that a casual player will not be impacted by the introduction of optional more hardcore content with unique rewards… This would only be true if Anet had infinite development resources for the game. As it stands putting content designers etc into producing hardcore content, which (assuming it is not just more HP for the same sort of extremely casual content we see now) generally requires more time and effort than casual content, means less content for the casual minority.
Now I personally think that allocating some resources to developing harder content (with appropriate rewards) is worth the effort. In some cases this provides some longevity of gameplay even for casual players. But claiming that reducing content development for casual players will not affect them is ludicrous.
This is probably why most times harder content uses pre existing resources, (hardmode) or an instance that uses creatures, spells, and background art that also exists somewhere else. Hard content doesnt usually require much more work than having a level designer with a different focus iterate on a design.
Which means, its generally isnt stealing much resources from casual players.
To me hard mode content is more than adding health and more damage to existing mobs. It means better AI, more complicated encounters, more detailed and developed mob/group design, etc. AI development and programming are not inconsequential. Raids, to use your LoTRO example, are major resource investments.
I think it would be worth the cost, but the cost would not be insignificant. If the cost (in time, effort, money) was minimal we would probably already have it.
Personally I think that adding a hardmode setting that affects instanced content, allowing replay of the personal story, and increasing the chances for better drops from the existing loot tables in HM, adding new rewards that have a better net chance to drop in HM, all implemented so that new instanced content inherently included the HM templates so that going forward new (instanced) content addition added to both casual and hardcore player options, would be awesome.
If only 5% of the population is interested in raids in LOTRO, i think only 5% of the population is interested in getting every visual/mini/title in the game. So its a battle of the completitionist who doesnt like hard content versus the people who like hard content, neither of them = the majority of players.
What do you suppose is the difference between the content development resource allocation between mini-pets and raids ?
People keep saying that a casual player will not be impacted by the introduction of optional more hardcore content with unique rewards… This would only be true if Anet had infinite development resources for the game. As it stands putting content designers etc into producing hardcore content, which (assuming it is not just more HP for the same sort of extremely casual content we see now) generally requires more time and effort than casual content, means less content for the casual minority.
Now I personally think that allocating some resources to developing harder content (with appropriate rewards) is worth the effort. In some cases this provides some longevity of gameplay even for casual players. But claiming that reducing content development for casual players will not affect them is ludicrous.
This is probably why most times harder content uses pre existing resources, (hardmode) or an instance that uses creatures, spells, and background art that also exists somewhere else. Hard content doesnt usually require much more work than having a level designer with a different focus iterate on a design.
Which means, its generally isnt stealing much resources from casual players.
To me hard mode content is more than adding health and more damage to existing mobs. It means better AI, more complicated encounters, more detailed and developed mob/group design, etc. AI development and programming are not inconsequential. Raids, to use your LoTRO example, are major resource investments.
I think it would be worth the cost, but the cost would not be insignificant. If the cost (in time, effort, money) was minimal we would probably already have it.
Personally I think that adding a hardmode setting that affects instanced content, allowing replay of the personal story, and increasing the chances for better drops from the existing loot tables in HM, adding new rewards that have a better net chance to drop in HM, all implemented so that new instanced content inherently included the HM templates so that going forward new (instanced) content addition added to both casual and hardcore player options, would be awesome.
actually its not so much about better AI, as much as better designed monster behaviors, and better designed ways for players to react to those behaviors. All groups can benefit from such technology.
Once you tighten these basics, you can increase challenge greatly by combining them.
For example fighting a monk, a warrior and an ele at once is not mechanically more difficult, but more difficult complexity wise. The amount of work for creating this difficulty, is getting a level designer to say put 3 complimentary mobs here instead of 1.
Harpy fractal with knockdowns versus without (even though the ring graphic is pretty crappy there). the only difference here is basically giving a monster one more skill, but combine the level design with this skill and the battle is more complex without being an HP bag event.
It would of course have a cost, but i think the cost would be comparitively small (its not new content really) The most cost effective way i think would be to design the encounters with high difficulty, and then scale them downwards. Its easier to make something challenging not challenging, than it is to make something not challenging challenging.
Interesting note: Arenanet is seeking a raid developer. Can’t say I know what that means, but an 8+ man against crippled Zhaitan would probably get me to send Anet flowers.
Interesting note: Arenanet is seeking a raid developer. Can’t say I know what that means, but an 8+ man against crippled Zhaitan would probably get me to send Anet flowers.
personally, i will probably never do any high man content, did it before, it ranged from headache, to annoying. But i wont say they shouldnt do it.
I will say they should not concentrate the bulk of their challenging content on 8-20 player content. There are many people who want depth/challenge in game who arent particularly enamored to the high man content style.
I’ll make do with 5. But it’ll probably be 90.
If they’re going to do Raid, they should follow how they set up the Marionette, THAT was the perfect raid, not too hard, not too easy.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.
He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).
Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.
The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.
They don’t even read or post on the forums. I doubt many of them actually care significantly enough about the game too. For them “It’s just a game”.
I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
(edited by Harper.4173)
You are most wrong my friend.
GW2 was never advertised as “everyone will have access to everything”.
It was advertised as "everyone will have the best statistical gear. Now statistical does not mean skins. It does not mean titles. It does not mean prestige and it does not mean miniatures.
Statistical means the numbers are the same ( and even that isn’t true anymore) so why should anyone take your argument that we didn’t know what GW2 would be into consideration?
Even the devs have changed what GW2 is compared to what it should have been. But even if that wasn’t the case GW2 was never advertised as this casual heaven where every casual can have every item with no work just because he bought the game.
I know this because I read every word related to GW2’s advertisement prior to its launch.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
this is most because the game never asked them to learn anything for 90% of the game they were playing. IE, the casual skill level is low, because most of the game requires no skill. Its not because casuals are unable/lack desire, its because the game told them they didnt need to think about anything to win most encounters.
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
this is most because the game never asked them to learn anything for 90% of the game they were playing. IE, the casual skill level is low, because most of the game requires no skill. Its not because casuals are unable/lack desire, its because the game told them they didnt need to think about anything to win most encounters.
That’s a theory. Unfortunately I’ve seen a huge number of bad players in almost every game. The genre isn’t continually dumbed down because everyone gets it. That would make no sense.
If every MMO company is continually lowering the bar, then there’s got to be a reason for it. Somehow I don’t think that most players are great at the game is that reason.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.
One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.
I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.
But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
this is most because the game never asked them to learn anything for 90% of the game they were playing. IE, the casual skill level is low, because most of the game requires no skill. Its not because casuals are unable/lack desire, its because the game told them they didnt need to think about anything to win most encounters.
That’s a theory. Unfortunately I’ve seen a huge number of bad players in almost every game. The genre isn’t continually dumbed down because everyone gets it. That would make no sense.
If every MMO company is continually lowering the bar, then there’s got to be a reason for it. Somehow I don’t think that most players are great at the game is that reason.
games that have sold millions upon millions are harder than this game. Billion dollar game industries are harder than this. Its possible the game has design flaws in how they execute challenge, but the majority of people arent as skill less as you believe.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
you keep talking about hardcore, and not hardcore, its not black and white, there isnt kitten easy, and impossible. people i knew who barely played games enjoyed mario which was harder than most of this game. Pacman is harder than this game.
The casual player is not a scrub, or mentally weak. They can handle various levels of difficulty and enjoy it. Their brain doesnt explode when they die in a game.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
I’m sorry to say but I don’t really think this is LoTRo.
Because more and more casual players are seeping into the market – that’s fact.
But I doubt that after the initial purchase they keep spending money on the game. Most casuals I know bought the game and then didn’t bother with anything else.
GW2 lives off its gem store – so while a lot of casual players might have bought it I doubt it’s the casual players that play in 1-2 times a week that support it.
It doesn’t matter that the majority of buyers are casual. Their money is gone now. Anet has it.
The money that matters is the money that keeps coming in every day through the gem store.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.
Yepp :
With 3 Million players and growing since launch
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884
I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.
Yepp :
With 3 Million players and growing since launch
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884
I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.
You believe in truth I. Advertising? Novel concept. Once again wildstar isn’t really hard. Maybe high level raids are, but that is a minority of its content. Hve you played the game?
and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.
Yepp :
With 3 Million players and growing since launch
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884
I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.
You believe in truth I. Advertising? Novel concept. Once again wildstar isn’t really hard. Maybe high level raids are, but that is a minority of its content. Hve you played the game?
A lot of people did find Wildstar hard. It’s certainly harder than GW 2.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
I’m sorry to say but I don’t really think this is LoTRo.
Because more and more casual players are seeping into the market – that’s fact.
But I doubt that after the initial purchase they keep spending money on the game. Most casuals I know bought the game and then didn’t bother with anything else.GW2 lives off its gem store – so while a lot of casual players might have bought it I doubt it’s the casual players that play in 1-2 times a week that support it.
It doesn’t matter that the majority of buyers are casual. Their money is gone now. Anet has it.
The money that matters is the money that keeps coming in every day through the gem store.
A casual player, often, is more likely to buy something they like, because they’re not as likely to farm for it, or accumulate huge amounts of money. Many casuals work too much to be hard core and so spending the money means less to them. It’s a hobby. They spend money on it.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.
What we do know is that the wurm and marionette (especially marionette) events were pushed into the game partly because Anet devs were appaled at how low the average player’s skill was, and wanted to encourage people to improve. That… didn’t work as well as they expected.
One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.
That is not certain. For example, i have friends both in casual and hardcore crowds. There are a number of people in the first group that do fund the game, quite extensively in some cases. All hardcores on the other hand buy gems for gold.
I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Usually, the people that pay the most are the group that is sometimes called “dedicated casuals”. People that are strongly emotionally tied to the game, that spend a lot of time on it, but also do not want to work too hard, and whose playstyle is mostly casual (incidentally, lot of people in that group are veteran gamers tired of hardcore playstyle, that now want to take it easily – like, for example me… or Vayne).
Perhaps it is different in gw2, of course (i have no way of knowing for certain) but i really doubt it. Here, the hardcores can farm, they don’t need to spend money (and quite often don’t have that money, because lot of hardcores are younger and don’t work yet). It’s the people that can’t catch up to them (but have a steady income… and due to that also less time) that often try to shorten the gap with cash.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.What we do know is that the wurm and marionette (especially marionette) events were pushed into the game partly because Anet devs were appaled at how low the average player’s skill was, and wanted to encourage people to improve. That… didn’t work as well as they expected.
One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.That is not certain. For example, i have friends both in casual and hardcore crowds. There are a number of people in the first group that do fund the game, quite extensively in some cases. All hardcores on the other hand buy gems for gold.
I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Usually, the people that pay the most are the group that is sometimes called “dedicated casuals”. People that are strongly emotionally tied to the game, that spend a lot of time on it, but also do not want to work too hard, and whose playstyle is mostly casual (incidentally, lot of people in that group are veteran gamers tired of hardcore playstyle, that now want to take it easily – like, for example me… or Vayne).
Perhaps it is different in gw2, of course (i have no way of knowing for certain) but i really doubt it. Here, the hardcores can farm, they don’t need to spend money (and quite often don’t have that money, because lot of hardcores are younger and don’t work yet). It’s the people that can’t catch up to them (but have a steady income… and due to that also less time) that often try to shorten the gap with cash.
You think they did it to improve people? I doubt it. I think they did it to give us harder content that isn’t zergable.
Either way – I’m not sure how you know that they were “appalled” at the average player’s skill level but they shouldn’t be. They made this game so easy and so “press 1 to win everything forever” that it shouldn’t really surprise them the player base is in this state.
There’s no mechanics that punish you for being bad, slow, ineffective or uninformed. I’d find it amusing if they were surprised people were bad in a game where there’s almost no incentive to get good.
I have nothing against casuals. Most of them don’t even care about the hardcore or the rewards. Most of them are so casual they’re very disconnected.
The problem appears when the “dedicated casuals” like you or Vayne start militating against other people’s fun because it would “ruin theirs”.
Even though it’s been pointed out numerous times that somebody having something doesn’t take it away from you.
Someone being more rewarded doesn’t reward you less doing the content that you like.
But this is already beside the point.
You’re going to believe and support whatever you want to believe and support. I’m going to do the same.
I’m really curious what you guys think about what Anet intends to do wit the new " Raid Dev" they’re looking to hire.
Hopefully not casual-oriented content – but that’s just me.
All I’ve been trying to do is point out that this game has a hardcore crowd. This crowd is starved of content and the direction the game is going towards right now isn’t helping the situation.
Casuals already have everything in this game :
From the “press 1 to win everything forever” megazerg farms to FOTM lower levels there’s actually no content a casual can’t approach and succeed with the barest minimum of effort. Yes – even the most hardcore content in this game has its very own casual friendly variant.
And the rewards? Same as the game’s top notch players.
That in my opinion is inherently flawed.
And that’s also why the player base is so " bad " like you pointed out. Because there was no reason or motive to drive them to “get good”.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.What we do know is that the wurm and marionette (especially marionette) events were pushed into the game partly because Anet devs were appaled at how low the average player’s skill was, and wanted to encourage people to improve. That… didn’t work as well as they expected.
One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.That is not certain. For example, i have friends both in casual and hardcore crowds. There are a number of people in the first group that do fund the game, quite extensively in some cases. All hardcores on the other hand buy gems for gold.
I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Usually, the people that pay the most are the group that is sometimes called “dedicated casuals”. People that are strongly emotionally tied to the game, that spend a lot of time on it, but also do not want to work too hard, and whose playstyle is mostly casual (incidentally, lot of people in that group are veteran gamers tired of hardcore playstyle, that now want to take it easily – like, for example me… or Vayne).
Perhaps it is different in gw2, of course (i have no way of knowing for certain) but i really doubt it. Here, the hardcores can farm, they don’t need to spend money (and quite often don’t have that money, because lot of hardcores are younger and don’t work yet). It’s the people that can’t catch up to them (but have a steady income… and due to that also less time) that often try to shorten the gap with cash.
You think they did it to improve people? I doubt it. I think they did it to give us harder content that isn’t zergable.
Either way – I’m not sure how you know that they were “appalled” at the average player’s skill level but they shouldn’t be. They made this game so easy and so “press 1 to win everything forever” that it shouldn’t really surprise them the player base is in this state.
There’s no mechanics that punish you for being bad, slow, ineffective or uninformed. I’d find it amusing if they were surprised people were bad in a game where there’s almost no incentive to get good.
I have nothing against casuals. Most of them don’t even care about the hardcore or the rewards. Most of them are so casual they’re very disconnected.
The problem appears when the “dedicated casuals” like you or Vayne start militating against other people’s fun because it would “ruin theirs”.
Even though it’s been pointed out numerous times that somebody having something doesn’t take it away from you.
Someone being more rewarded doesn’t reward you less doing the content that you like.But this is already beside the point.
You’re going to believe and support whatever you want to believe and support. I’m going to do the same.
I’m really curious what you guys think about what Anet intends to do wit the new " Raid Dev" they’re looking to hire.
Hopefully not casual-oriented content – but that’s just me.All I’ve been trying to do is point out that this game has a hardcore crowd. This crowd is starved of content and the direction the game is going towards right now isn’t helping the situation.
Casuals already have everything in this game :
From the “press 1 to win everything forever” megazerg farms to FOTM lower levels there’s actually no content a casual can’t approach and succeed with the barest minimum of effort. Yes – even the most hardcore content in this game has its very own casual friendly variant.
And the rewards? Same as the game’s top notch players.
That in my opinion is inherently flawed.
And that’s also why the player base is so " bad " like you pointed out. Because there was no reason or motive to drive them to “get good”.
I wouldn’t use the word appauled, but they did post about why the content was hard. They wanted to “stretch” players and make them better at the game. They said so, that’s how we know. It was a post on the forums.
They said that they wanted the community to come together and they wanted people to learn. They also said that until the community did learn they couldn’t put even more difficult content into the game. While I don’t remember it word for word, I will say that the implication to me seems like a lot of people needed to get better before Anet could really add harder content.
I wouldn’t use the word appauled, but they did post about why the content was hard. They wanted to “stretch” players and make them better at the game. They said so, that’s how we know. It was a post on the forums.
They said that they wanted the community to come together and they wanted people to learn. They also said that until the community did learn they couldn’t put even more difficult content into the game. While I don’t remember it word for word, I will say that the implication to me seems like a lot of people needed to get better before Anet could really add harder content.
And that is achieved by making the introduction even easier? If ANet wants to attract the Farmville crowd then they shouldn’t be surprised when the avarage player has trouble finding the dodge key.
edit to add: I like games like divinity or dark souls because they give you all the information you need but make you figure stuff out on your own. If the game was harder from the get go (or ramps up fast after the intro), people would have to become better and I dread the day all those players that seemingly have trouble with even the simplest tasks are fully fledged endgame characters.
PUGS nowadays are bad enough, just imagine what happens when a wave of those finally hits us.
shudder
edit 2 to clarify: I actually love teaching new players but there’s a huge difference between someone who makes an effort and a near braindead zergling who throws a tantrum when he can’t get everything handed to him simply because he bought the game (i.e. the farmville/candycrush crowd Anet wants to appeal to; keyword: instant gratification).
(edited by Crovax.7854)
I wouldn’t use the word appauled, but they did post about why the content was hard. They wanted to “stretch” players and make them better at the game. They said so, that’s how we know. It was a post on the forums.
They said that they wanted the community to come together and they wanted people to learn. They also said that until the community did learn they couldn’t put even more difficult content into the game. While I don’t remember it word for word, I will say that the implication to me seems like a lot of people needed to get better before Anet could really add harder content.
And that is achieved by making the introduction even easier? If ANet wants to attract the Farmville crowd then they shouldn’t be surprised when the avarage player has trouble finding the dodge key.
edit to add: I like games like divinity or dark souls because they give you all the information you need but make you figure stuff out on your own. If the game was harder from the get go (or ramps up fast after the intro), people would have to become better and I dread the day all those players that seemingly have trouble with even the simplest tasks are fully fledged endgame characters.
PUGS nowadays are bad enough, just imagine what happens when a wave of those finally hits us.shudder
I like games where you have to figure out stuff on your own too. But that doesn’t mean those are the most profitable games. The average game lasts people what? 16 hours? 20? 150?
MMOs have to last people longer which means far more investment. I’m not sure how long Dark Souls took to make or how many devs, but you can bet the cost of making it was a lot less than making Guild Wars 2.
When the cost of making a game is higher the game has to attract more people. It’s just basic logic. It’s the reality of making MMOs today.
A niche MMO would have a lot more trouble surviving if it came out today, unless the kept the budget really low. A lot of games that have less people make their ends meet by making them pay to win.
The business has changed, so the way businesses conduct business has to change. That means attracting a bigger range of people.
This is how new players get better.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
This is how new players get better.
Video is already outdated. Some of the stuff he’s “complaining” about has been fixed. There’s also misinformation in the video, not that you’d care about something like that. Why post a video you know is outdated, that has misinformation in it?
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).
I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.
Maybe I’m wrong though :/
and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.
Yepp :
With 3 Million players and growing since launch
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884
I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.
You believe in truth I. Advertising? Novel concept. Once again wildstar isn’t really hard. Maybe high level raids are, but that is a minority of its content. Hve you played the game?
A lot of people did find Wildstar hard. It’s certainly harder than GW 2.
you have any source on this? because i played it, and i never got up to the hard parts, most of the hard stuff was supposed to be high end dungeons. In fact they had soloable small scale dungeons. Since i played for 1.5 months, i doubt casuals ever hit the possible wall of high end content in that time. (i played more than a few hours a day on average) They did have some cool design elements here and there that wasnt hard, but if i had to say why people probably quit….
Old school graphics, overly cartoony world, poor aethetics, quest hub progression, and monthly fee, basically because the WoW clone elements, while familiar, dont really make you want to keep coming back to that game specifically. They probably made people want to play wow again. after all, if it costs 15 bucks a month you got to choose. And while you could buy subscription with gold, it still makes you watch your dollars, and try to decide if its worthwhile.
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.Maybe I’m wrong though :/
First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.
Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.
That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.
But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.Maybe I’m wrong though :/
First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.
Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.
That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.
But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.
anet sold that many on PC before the game launched, under the assumption that it would be similar in challenge to GW1. I will say it really is not. Though i prefer gw2 combat, exploration, etc. DOA Underworld, challenge missions, hard mode vanquishing, heck for some missions, normal mode was harder than gw2,
So basically most the people who bought GW in the first month, believed it would be like gw1, even if they never played it, they would be going off how hard other people said it would be. This implies not everyone is as incapable, or non desiring of challenge as you imagine
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.Maybe I’m wrong though :/
First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.
Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.
That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.
But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.
Argh, you missed my point entirely. Firstly, I didn’t bring up the sales figures for comparison reasons, just to show that a hard game most certainly can be mainstream while also challenging the player.
Secondly, I never said it’s bad people get taught, I’m just concerned what kind of player this changes bring in, because as I see it, instead of people who think this is aimed at new players who likely won’t make an effort to learn the game anyway.
I want to be honest, there is so little challenge in this game already, what do you think will happen if all those bad players reach max level and Anet decides to realease actual hard content.
I’ll tell you: the same that has happened during Liadri year 1.
Let players who want an easy game voice their opinion, but so will I and I much prefer a challenge in my games, even though I only have 0-2 hours a day max to play videogames. Hard doesn’t mean time consuming and as I see it, the game will become even easier when all the players who never bothered to become better come here and complain that the game is too hard so it gets dumbed down even further.
As I said; maybe I’m completely wrong and it will be awesome with a lot of new good players so we get a lot of new hard content but I won’t hold my breath (even though I certainly do hope that will be the case).
(edited by Crovax.7854)