Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

people keep saying this, and it is false.

people who want rewards are not the opposite of people who want challenge. This idea that you are either one or the other is a false ideaology. People who like easy games are the ones in opposition to the ones who want challenge.

I never suggested that wanting challenge and wanting rewards are mutually exclusive. You made that up. Demographics are not always of one mind. There are some “want challenge” players who don’t give a care about rewards. Some care more about rewards than the challenge. Some care equally. Some want the bragging rights. It’s a continuum. The issue in this thread has migrated from, “More challenge.” to “More challenge and better/exclusive rewards.” In these type of threads, it always does.

phys.7689:

lets be clear the current assumption in america is most people want rewards, regardless of the level of challenge they enjoy. (the entire economy is based on this principle)

ANet has obviously established a pattern of rewarding some play styles more than others. If you don’t care to run dungeons and don’t want to train, rewards are pretty well either not going to be gained at all, or will accrue drastically more slowly. However, they’ve also implemented what is, in large part, an egalitarian reward design. Most rewards can be gotten by anyone, but some play styles will get them sooner. There are exclusive rewards, but they are not the norm.

phys.7689:

So all that your saying is that some players who want challenge but also want reward must choose between easy grind, and leaving the game (for the far majority of rewards) whereas the people who want easy content and reward do not have to choose.

Let’s widen the perspective a bit. How many games offer better/exclusive rewards linked to challenge? Those games offer no choice to those who want egalitarian access to rewards. Challenge players have a choice in GW2, they just don’t like it.

Yes, there is certainly an issue around rewards created by ANet because they don’t want to make too many rewards that are not available to all play styles. I get that you — and others — don’t like it. I can see why ANet did it though. They believe it is better for the health of their game. Of course, they could be misreading the numbers of those who want the same old challenge/reward play-style from older games.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nick.6972:

Too bad instead on expanding on these kinds of bosses they continue to add “spam 1” monsters.

So, what “spam 1” bosses have been added to the game this year?

Oh, c’mon now. How about 95% of the bosses in Dry Top? Except for Tootsie and the jumping frog, all the champs are pretty much done by spamming 1.

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

people keep saying this, and it is false.

people who want rewards are not the opposite of people who want challenge. This idea that you are either one or the other is a false ideaology. People who like easy games are the ones in opposition to the ones who want challenge.

I never suggested that wanting challenge and wanting rewards are mutually exclusive. You made that up. Demographics are not always of one mind. There are some “want challenge” players who don’t give a care about rewards. Some care more about rewards than the challenge. Some care equally. Some want the bragging rights. It’s a continuum. The issue in this thread has migrated from, “More challenge.” to “More challenge and better/exclusive rewards.” In these type of threads, it always does.

phys.7689:

lets be clear the current assumption in america is most people want rewards, regardless of the level of challenge they enjoy. (the entire economy is based on this principle)

ANet has obviously established a pattern of rewarding some play styles more than others. If you don’t care to run dungeons and don’t want to train, rewards are pretty well either not going to be gained at all, or will accrue drastically more slowly. However, they’ve also implemented what is, in large part, an egalitarian reward design. Most rewards can be gotten by anyone, but some play styles will get them sooner. There are exclusive rewards, but they are not the norm.

phys.7689:

So all that your saying is that some players who want challenge but also want reward must choose between easy grind, and leaving the game (for the far majority of rewards) whereas the people who want easy content and reward do not have to choose.

Let’s widen the perspective a bit. How many games offer better/exclusive rewards linked to challenge? Those games offer no choice to those who want egalitarian access to rewards. Challenge players have a choice in GW2, they just don’t like it.

Yes, there is certainly an issue around rewards created by ANet because they don’t want to make too many rewards that are not available to all play styles. I get that you — and others — don’t like it. I can see why ANet did it though. They believe it is better for the health of their game. Of course, they could be misreading the numbers of those who want the same old challenge/reward play-style from older games.

the main reason i dont like it is because it promotes really degenerative gameplay, IF you want rewards. The most profitable playstyles are the most tedious, boring playstyles.
Back when i was trying to grind my legendary, most of the entertaining things my guild wanted to do were actually ineffecient time wise towards working to my in game goals. Its like hey, get more players together, do this harder content, use more time, now get 1/3rd what you would have gotten on the champ train, watching netflix with a tiny window in the corner of your screen.

The systems they have presented are working against the game design, and making it more vapid, less entertaining, and actually more grindy (because when things are money based, it is about competitive earning potential, so you got to grind more) This is where the current reward system to not reward people differently for different tasks leads to.

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

sorry man, but candy crush, solitaire, and minesweeper are substantially more difficult than this game. minesweeper is a logic puzzle, solitare involves greater memory prediction organization skills, and candy crush has like 100 levels of difficulty that statistically small % of millions of players ever reach.

Your hardcore MMO game is the one for simpletons, not the facebook/microsoft accessory pack games.
All we got really going for us difficulty wise is more buttons, and less clarity on what is happening in game.

Beldin.5498:

NoTrigger.8396:

and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.

Yepp :

With 3 Million players and growing since launch

http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884

I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.

after hundreds of egoistic posts from you on the german and english forum, and telling people how much you hate OPTIONAL and challenging content because you know exactly how you play, people cant respect nor take you serious anymore.

and btw, once again you only see what you really want to see.
check the NCSoft quarterly report and you will realize that gw2 is declining.

also, the challenging content isnt the problem in wildstar. its why people bought and play the game to begin with.
the problem in wildstar is server transfer restrictions and factions.

phys.7689:

because when things are money based, it is about competitive earning potential

This point is all too often overlooked.

When goals, objectives, rewards, etc are designed to be acquired by accumulating currency in an active market players are competing, even if they don’t realize it, with others for those rewards, etc. If currency is being accumulated by others at a greater rate than one can manage one might not ever be able to afford that shiny whatever-it-is that one desires due to inflation.

“Wow, 500g for X, its gonna take me a while to get there…” six months later, “got my 500g, but X now costs 750g…I guess I’ll keep waiting,” a month or two later, “finally got my 750g….its 1000g now ?!?!” and so on.

phys.7689:

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

sorry man, but candy crush, solitaire, and minesweeper are substantially more difficult than this game. minesweeper is a logic puzzle, solitare involves greater memory prediction organization skills, and candy crush has like 100 levels of difficulty that statistically small % of millions of players ever reach.

Your hardcore MMO game is the one for simpletons, not the facebook/microsoft accessory pack games.
All we got really going for us difficulty wise is more buttons, and less clarity on what is happening in game.

Yeah I should not have included Candy Crush here. I stand by minesweeper and solitaire.

calyx.9086:

phys.7689:

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

sorry man, but candy crush, solitaire, and minesweeper are substantially more difficult than this game. minesweeper is a logic puzzle, solitare involves greater memory prediction organization skills, and candy crush has like 100 levels of difficulty that statistically small % of millions of players ever reach.

Your hardcore MMO game is the one for simpletons, not the facebook/microsoft accessory pack games.
All we got really going for us difficulty wise is more buttons, and less clarity on what is happening in game.

Yeah I should not have included Candy Crush here. I stand by minesweeper and solitaire.

man minesweeper with like a bunch of 4s and 3s and 2s mixed in, logically figuring out where the bomb must be is substantially more brain power than this game has ever asked you for.

i mean you could just guess, but unless you are pyschic you will have a fairly low completion rate.

Crovax.7854:

Argh, you missed my point entirely. Firstly, I didn’t bring up the sales figures for comparison reasons, just to show that a hard game most certainly can be mainstream while also challenging the player.

Comparing single player games to MMOs is apples to oranges. If I can learn mechanics on my own time and at my own pace my tolerance for difficulty increases. Having to wait for 4-25 other players to keep pace with me and/or having to keep pace with them is extremely frustrating.

There was a very vocal portion of the MMO community that lamented the good old days of difficult 40 man raids and insisted that if someone built them then players would come. Wildstar bought into that and attempted to service that niche portion of the community. The results are documented in this Wildstar report:

In the true sense of their motto; “The Devs are Listening” Frost discussed how Carbine is regularly looking at and analyzing gameplay analytics. These analytics are focused on playtime, content and reward loop feedback, all of which have shifted their focus from high end content to solo gameplay. Statistics are showing the majority of Wildstar players enjoy solo play instead of larger raids which really caught Carbine developers off guard.

If you want difficult content you might want to check out WoW. They don’t seem to have any qualms about shutting 90% of their playerbase out of their ultimate end game. As for Guild Wars 2, many of us (most of us?) are pretty happy with where it is.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y

This is how new players get better.

Video is already outdated. Some of the stuff he’s “complaining” about has been fixed. There’s also misinformation in the video, not that you’d care about something like that. Why post a video you know is outdated, that has misinformation in it?

I don’t know what misinformation is in it.
And I don’t find the fact that it’s outdated that relevant. Sure – they fixed some stuff but the core issue remains – this is what they thought would make a better experience?

Wow. Just wow.

I’m not claiming to be good at video game development – but how do you want to educate people if the game can’t even kill them?

The point is they thought this would be a good idea.
It puts other decisions and ideas – both past, present and future into perspective.

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

This – from a player perspective I can’t lie – it hits close to home. I’m not big on casuals.

From Anet’s perspective – this is wrong – their money spends just as well.

It’s industry wide – not just GW2. Casuals are coming in in droves – I just can’t wait for the next big thing in entertainment to take them away.

calyx.9086:

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

How about all you “challenge seekers” go back to Dark Souls and WoW, and all those “UBER HARDMODE SO EDGY” games where you all belong?

You guys are making me agree with Vayne. You have no idea how much I -despise- that.

Gene Archer.8560:

calyx.9086:

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

How about all you “challenge seekers” go back to Dark Souls and WoW, and all those “UBER HARDMODE SO EDGY” games where you all belong?

You guys are making me agree with Vayne. You have no idea how much I -despise- that.

you shouldnt react to someones attitude as much as what they are saying. Are you just annoyed at their tone, or do you think the game is better off with less challenging content/low reward content

phys.7689:

you shouldnt react to someones attitude as much as what they are saying. Are you just annoyed at their tone, or do you think the game is better off with less challenging content/low reward content

I think the game is better off being easy, yes. I think it’s better off being welcoming to the lowest common denominator because catering to the “hardcores” and the “uber elite” only ever leads to a horrible, toxic, elitist community of haves and have nots.

I’ve seen too many MMOs take that route, and I am downright sick of it. Enough of that bullcrap goes on in the real world. I don’t need it infecting my video games.

I get and respect that some gamers like challenge for the sake of challenge, but they are in the wrong game quite frankly. And beyond that, too many of them wind up being the other kind of challenge seekers. The ones that don’t want actual challenge. They say they do, but what they really want is challenge that’s just hard enough that they can beat it, but no one else can. They want to stroke their egos, nothing more. They want to feel part of some elite and will gladly trample over everyone else’s fun to get there.

And yes, I will gladly deny them their fun because of that.

And it’s so easy to tell who those kind of people are. They’re the ones that demonize casuals. The ones that proclaim “I can’t wait til those filthy casuals leave”

And I have no problem telling those people that they already have their challenge available to them in other games and they are more than welcome to let the door hit their worthless kitten on the way out. They are poison and will forever be poison.

Rewards are a whole different matter. I’m not gonna start on that.

Gene Archer.8560:

phys.7689:

you shouldnt react to someones attitude as much as what they are saying. Are you just annoyed at their tone, or do you think the game is better off with less challenging content/low reward content

I think the game is better off being easy, yes. I think it’s better off being welcoming to the lowest common denominator because catering to the “hardcores” and the “uber elite” only ever leads to a horrible, toxic, elitist community of haves and have nots.

I’ve seen too many MMOs take that route, and I am downright sick of it. Enough of that bullcrap goes on in the real world. I don’t need it infecting my video games.

I get and respect that some gamers like challenge for the sake of challenge, but they are in the wrong game quite frankly. And beyond that, too many of them wind up being the other kind of challenge seekers. The ones that don’t want actual challenge. They say they do, but what they really want is challenge that’s just hard enough that they can beat it, but no one else can. They want to stroke their egos, nothing more. They want to feel part of some elite and will gladly trample over everyone else’s fun to get there.

And yes, I will gladly deny them their fun because of that.

And it’s so easy to tell who those kind of people are. They’re the ones that demonize casuals. The ones that proclaim “I can’t wait til those filthy casuals leave”

And I have no problem telling those people that they already have their challenge available to them in other games and they are more than welcome to let the door hit their worthless kitten on the way out. They are poison and will forever be poison.

Rewards are a whole different matter. I’m not gonna start on that.

well you appear to like the game easy and have a large hatred for certain types, fair enough. I generally dont like elitism, but i dont think any game can be replayable for long without depth. But thats my opinion

phys.7689:

well you appear to like the game easy and have a large hatred for certain types, fair enough. I generally dont like elitism, but i dont think any game can be replayable for long without depth. But thats my opinion

Depth and Challenge are two entirely different concepts.

Furthermore, true challenge isn’t actually quantifiable. You say this game is super easy, but that’s not true.

What is true is that it’s super easy -to you-.

But those are two entirely different things.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

…

the main reason i dont like it is because it promotes really degenerative gameplay, IF you want rewards. The most profitable playstyles are the most tedious, boring playstyles.

I guess I see that point. Train farming is about as exciting as cutting my toenails. I can stomach about a half hour of it if I’m interested in doing events for dailies and don’t have a lot of time. This aspect of the game has become worse for me since mega-server. Before MS, I could find events in under-utilized zones on my small pop server. Now, I can wander for an hour in such zones and not find an event at all some times.

Back when i was trying to grind my legendary, most of the entertaining things my guild wanted to do were actually ineffecient time wise towards working to my in game goals. Its like hey, get more players together, do this harder content, use more time, now get 1/3rd what you would have gotten on the champ train, watching netflix with a tiny window in the corner of your screen.

The systems they have presented are working against the game design, and making it more vapid, less entertaining, and actually more grindy (because when things are money based, it is about competitive earning potential, so you got to grind more) This is where the current reward system to not reward people differently for different tasks leads to.

I understand the point about Catch 22 cash accumulation. That system can cause an issue for some players. I understand the frustration. I also understand the point that those who care about egalitarian rewards are making. Challenge + reward players can go to other MMO’s. Equal access fans don’t have a lot of choices.

calyx.9086:

Oh, c’mon now. How about 95% of the bosses in Dry Top? Except for Tootsie and the jumping frog, all the champs are pretty much done by spamming 1.

95%? So, there are two hundred bosses in Dry Top? Looks to me like there are about 8 to 10. Also, what about the Mordremoth mobs? The Colocal Queen? The Dust Monster? The issue is not that these mobs are not challenging, the issues are that:

• Individual contributions to success are by and large meaningless in herd play
• Scaling only goes so far before event difficulty is outnumbered
• There are more average and below average players doing these events than above average players, by definition
• If the events required play that approaches perfection, very few would do them. Those who could complete them would learn how, then say that the event is too easy, or would say that the effort was too much for the reward. Can’t you see how that would make a developer crazy?

Don’t get me wrong, guys. It’s not that I don’t sympathize with those who want more challenge. I do. It’s just that I see both sides of the matter. So far, ANet has had some limited success adding harder stuff to the game. However, as long as they insist on predominately persistent world content, and as long as there are average and below average players playing, that limited success is going to continue.

Gene Archer.8560:

I get and respect that some gamers like challenge for the sake of challenge, but they are in the wrong game quite frankly. And beyond that, too many of them wind up being the other kind of challenge seekers. The ones that don’t want actual challenge. They say they do, but what they really want is challenge that’s just hard enough that they can beat it, but no one else can. They want to stroke their egos, nothing more. They want to feel part of some elite and will gladly trample over everyone else’s fun to get there.

Well said. One of the main reasons I left WoW to come back to Guild Wars was that many of the players clamoring for a greater challenge were also the first to impose gear and build requirements on their group. The fact that playing with less experienced and/or undergeared players is a challenge unto itself seemed to escape them. Sadly Blizzard listened to those people and created an easy mode and a hard mode. The hard mode distributes gear that makes the (already) better players even better than before while keeping the less skilled in inferior gear. This is where the line of thought expressed in this thread will lead, and I think it’s absolutely terrible.

One thing I miss about the original Guild Wars is the hero and henchmen system. I used to get a challenge out of attempting everything with just them. Then when I played with actual players everything seemed like an absolute cakewalk, even if the players weren’t that good. I also liked how we could cut down on the number of party members to increase the challenge as well as the loot rate. I’m sorry if it seems like I’m digressing, but my point is that there are many ways to create challenges without having to rely on bigger numbers and mechanics that exclude players with slow connections and/or inferior hardware.

Gene Archer.8560:

phys.7689:

well you appear to like the game easy and have a large hatred for certain types, fair enough. I generally dont like elitism, but i dont think any game can be replayable for long without depth. But thats my opinion

Depth and Challenge are two entirely different concepts.

Furthermore, true challenge isn’t actually quantifiable. You say this game is super easy, but that’s not true.

What is true is that it’s super easy -to you-.

But those are two entirely different things.

challenge is just depth applied to how hard something is.
Depth in exploration would be having places you can only get to by knowing secret routes, and somethings in there. Or shortcuts, hidden chests, special interactions etc.

Depth in lore would be more information, side stories, and some use for that, whether it be to gain greater knowledge or get more interactions out of npcs, or objects in the world
Depth in crafting would mean more customizable appearances, and possibly stats, with skill or knowledge improving your results.

but all these things amount to depth applied to different playstyles. depth in combat and encounters amounts to challenge.

So yeah i dont think the game can last long with eotm trains, champ trains, easy dungeon path speed runs. Its truely a waste of the combat mechanics they have developed.

but it aint up to me, so its just my opinion on the matter

I am a huge fan of untradeable rewards that are unique to skilled play. I don’t think we have enough of them. I really don’t like that everything is purchasable with gold.

Fernling.1729:

I am a huge fan of untradeable rewards that are unique to skilled play. I don’t think we have enough of them. I really don’t like that everything is purchasable with gold.

Then it sounds like collecting titles may be your thing.

Bernie.8674:

Fernling.1729:

I am a huge fan of untradeable rewards that are unique to skilled play. I don’t think we have enough of them. I really don’t like that everything is purchasable with gold.

Then it sounds like collecting titles may be your thing.

I actually don’t like titles at all. I have the gw1 titles and some gw2 titles and I don’t display one at all. I wouldn’t mind mini pets though.

I find it odd though that people complain about this idea, when they have already gated essential items AND high value cosmetic items, behind specific playstyles.

We continue to complain about those as well. Just because something is currently in the game doesn’t make it right.

Once again it comes down to the completionist who wants things easily versus the people who want challenging content. Both are edge case players.

You have no real evidence for this claim.

The problem is the completionist who wants things easily, has an overall negative effect on the economy and design of the game when you cater to him. While the challenging content player does not.

You also have no evidence for this claim.

However, i dont think it would be that damaging to have some small variation of an item that requires you to actually beat something hard.

It really depends though on how much you want the variant version. If you can get regular ascended armor through crafting, but can only get black smokey ascended armor through killing the Wurm a bunch of times, then that isn’t a big deal, unless you WANT the smokey armor, and don’t want to kill the wurm a bunch of times, in which case it would be a very big deal.

Im guessing you didnt like the idea of the special color SAB skins? I thought it was fine to have a pallete swap for actually doing the harder content.

Personally, I didn’t see it as a big deal, because I liked the blue ones better than the yellow and green ones, but if someone wanted the yellow or green ones, I could see it as being a very big problem. I know that if the blue ones were the ultra-hard to get I would be super adventure kittened.

I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).

The thing is, ANet has the numbers. They know how many people run Arah each day, how many people run Teq and Wurm each day, how many run Fractals (even when it’s not a daily), how many participated in Marionette even after a while, etc. They also know how many people champ farm or Karka farm or whatever. They know how to balance out their content needs. My assumptions though is that the “hardcore” base for this game is considerably lower than in other games, since a ton of them seem to have left almost immediately when they realized that GW2 was not a hardcore sort of game. And God bless them, they’re out there making Wildstar the massive success that it is today.

One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.

Nope. Casuals care too, they just lay different sorts of content. Unless the game is P2W, and this game isn’t really, casuals can be expected to spend as much, if not more supporting the game as hardcore players will. You’re cofusing terms though, but “casuals” in this discussion we aren’t talking about people who only log in a few times per month, which may spend that time champ farming OR running Fractals. For the purposes of this discussion, we’re using the term “casual” to mean someone who logs in for a few hours each day, on average, and yet spends that time running low-stress content like World Bosses or leveling alts, rather than running hard mode dungeons or mega-bosses.

Oh, c’mon now. How about 95% of the bosses in Dry Top? Except for Tootsie and the jumping frog, all the champs are pretty much done by spamming 1.

And also excepting the Legendary Giant, the Skritt Queen, the Dust Monster, the Coatl Queen, the Twister, and the Giant Beetle. Maybe some of the others, but those are the ones I fight regularly, and if you don’t pay attention to their rules then you either don’t do any damage or you die, often both. The Devourer Queen is pretty basic though.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Crovax.7854:

There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).

I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.

Maybe I’m wrong though :/

First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.

Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.

That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.

But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.

anet sold that many on PC before the game launched, under the assumption that it would be similar in challenge to GW1. I will say it really is not. Though i prefer gw2 combat, exploration, etc. DOA Underworld, challenge missions, hard mode vanquishing, heck for some missions, normal mode was harder than gw2,

So basically most the people who bought GW in the first month, believed it would be like gw1, even if they never played it, they would be going off how hard other people said it would be. This implies not everyone is as incapable, or non desiring of challenge as you imagine

This is a terrible assumption actually. I didn’t buy this game because I assumed it would be “similar in challenge” to Guild Wars 1. If you’re laboring under the assumption that the main reason people buy games is challenge, you’d have to do a lot more than say so to prove it to me.

People bought Guild Wars 2 for a whole host of reasons and challenge may or may not be a factor in that. I didn’t play Guild Wars 1 because I found it particularly challenging either. I don’t really think most people go look at games and say “that will be challenging”. I think people look at games and think “that will be fun”. Different people get their fun from different things. Most of the holiday events in Guild Wars 1 were popular, but I can’t think of any that were challenging. They were just fun.

There are always people interested in challenging themselves, but I don’t think it’s the bulk of humanity. Of course, I could be wrong.

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

Interesting fact: All those new people the “NPE” is supposed to attract are going to be even worse. What sort of dungeon do you think someone who struggles with bundle items is going to want?

Kythan Myr.4719:

I have to wonder if there is even enough of us active to justify Anet even feeling the need to do something for those wanting something more.

I bet a fair number of the players are still around. They may not be in Tyria, however like myself they may still receive email alerts about GW2 and read news clippings on MMO sites. Will it take some effort to convince these players to return? Yes. Is ArenaNet willing to do it? That remains to be seen.

sirian.4981:

Interesting fact: All those new people the “NPE” is supposed to attract are going to be even worse. What sort of dungeon do you think someone who struggles with bundle items is going to want?

So you think that people who are slightly confused at the beginning can’t learn all of the stuff later on and will always be bad players? And you really think that new players are that stupid that they aren’t amused with the one or other tip whereas some other tips are actually useful to them? Be it bundles or how to dodge or whatever.
I actually like the NPE but it’s hard to judge when one is already a veteran player in this game.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Crovax.7854:

There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).

I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.

Maybe I’m wrong though :/

First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.

Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.

That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.

But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.

anet sold that many on PC before the game launched, under the assumption that it would be similar in challenge to GW1. I will say it really is not. Though i prefer gw2 combat, exploration, etc. DOA Underworld, challenge missions, hard mode vanquishing, heck for some missions, normal mode was harder than gw2,

So basically most the people who bought GW in the first month, believed it would be like gw1, even if they never played it, they would be going off how hard other people said it would be. This implies not everyone is as incapable, or non desiring of challenge as you imagine

This is a terrible assumption actually. I didn’t buy this game because I assumed it would be “similar in challenge” to Guild Wars 1. If you’re laboring under the assumption that the main reason people buy games is challenge, you’d have to do a lot more than say so to prove it to me.

People bought Guild Wars 2 for a whole host of reasons and challenge may or may not be a factor in that. I didn’t play Guild Wars 1 because I found it particularly challenging either. I don’t really think most people go look at games and say “that will be challenging”. I think people look at games and think “that will be fun”. Different people get their fun from different things. Most of the holiday events in Guild Wars 1 were popular, but I can’t think of any that were challenging. They were just fun.

There are always people interested in challenging themselves, but I don’t think it’s the bulk of humanity. Of course, I could be wrong.

ok, lets not assume, its safe to say no one bought gw2 within the presale/first month because they thought it would be easy. I was paying attention and they never marketed it as easy, in fact they talked about they would have 8 dungeons with 3 paths each that were extremely difficult designed to challenge the best players. Therefor, i think it is incorrect to assume that in order to sell big quantities, you need to be easy.

phys.7689:

I generally dont like elitism, but i dont think any game can be replayable for long without depth. But thats my opinion

I agree, i just think that neither “hardcore” difficulty content nor rewarding such content better is necessary to achieve that depth. In fact, i think that of all possible ways to do that, this one is the most shallow, and the most likely to achieve the opposite result.
Wait, scratch that, there’s one even more shallow – gear progression hamster wheel.

phys.7689:

challenge is just depth applied to how hard something is.

We seem to have very different understanding of the mening of that term then. No, more difficult contend is not necessarily more “deep” than an easy one. Compare for example a difficulty achieved through a stat inflation, with a difficulty coming from introducing a simple logical puzzle. Even if the first content is so hard that only 1% of the people will be able to pass it (compared to, say, 25% for the puzzle one), the first one still has no depth at all.

phys.7689:

ok, lets not assume, its safe to say no one bought gw2 within the presale/first month because they thought it would be easy.

I’m not. I don’t assume as well, that people bought it because they thought it was not going to be easy (…why is the opposite to easy being filtered, i have no idea…).

On the other hand, i did buy it because it was marketed to casuals. And what most interested me was the advertised then lack of hamster wheels.
Mind you, i am a veteran GW1 player as well, and i definitely didn’t play that game for the challenge. After all, if i wanted to, there were (and still are) better games for it.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

I generally dont like elitism, but i dont think any game can be replayable for long without depth. But thats my opinion

I agree, i just think that neither “hardcore” difficulty content nor rewarding such content better is necessary to achieve that depth. In fact, i think that of all possible ways to do that, this one is the most shallow, and the most likely to achieve the opposite result.
Wait, scratch that, there’s one even more shallow – gear progression hamster wheel.

phys.7689:

challenge is just depth applied to how hard something is.

We seem to have very different understanding of the mening of that term then. No, more difficult contend is not necessarily more “deep” than an easy one. Compare for example a difficulty achieved through a stat inflation, with a difficulty coming from introducing a simple logical puzzle. Even if the first content is so hard that only 1% of the people will be able to pass it (compared to, say, 25% for the puzzle one), the first one still has no depth at all.

phys.7689:

ok, lets not assume, its safe to say no one bought gw2 within the presale/first month because they thought it would be easy.

I’m not. I don’t assume as well, that people bought it because they thought it was not going to be easy (…why is the opposite to easy being filtered, i have no idea…).

On the other hand, i did buy it because it was marketed to casuals. And what most interested me was the advertised then lack of hamster wheels.
Mind you, i am a veteran GW1 player as well, and i definitely didn’t play that game for the challenge. After all, if i wanted to, there were (and still are) better games for it.

challenging content aka depth in combat doesnt come down to statistics. I never was refering to stat inflation type content as challenging.

ok challenging combat on a one on one level will usually come down to preparation, execution, and adaptability. depth in preparation is having skills/abilities that matter and can give you an advantage when properly executed, execution is how optimally you can execute your plans. Adaptability is how well you can adapt to your opponents counters, unforseen behaviors, or your own errors. Stats in MMOs is usually used as a means of either gating players or, allowing them to mitigate difficulty with inflated stats.

Then there is challenge in the encounter/level design

to be clear, i have never been talking about stat manipulation in terms of challenge.

in fact i wouldnt mind if they had a mode where they fixed your stats and set up challenging fights/encounters. One of my favorite online game modes was challenge mode in phantasy star online. where all your stats was preset for the instance, and you had to survive and do it fast in order to succeed. That was some of the most enjoyable replayable content i had in an online game.

sirian.4981:

calyx.9086:

Vayne.8563:

Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?

And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.

Interesting fact: All those new people the “NPE” is supposed to attract are going to be even worse. What sort of dungeon do you think someone who struggles with bundle items is going to want?

Interesting fact: More people make stuff up and call it facts than people who actually have facts.

You don’t know that making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse. It’s ten levels. This post is the worst kind of hyperbole.

Vayne.8563:

This post is the worst kind of hyperbole.

Using hyperbole to discredit hyperbole. Hm.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

This post is the worst kind of hyperbole.

Using hyperbole to discredit hyperbole. Hm.

No. It really is my opinion that that’s the worst type of hyperbole. That’s actually true and not hyperbole. Saying something is a fact that’s not a fact is about as bad as it gets…to me.

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

Gene Archer.8560:

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.

You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.

If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.

Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.

You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.

If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.

Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.

The worst type of statement can only be opinion. There is no objective worst. I could definitely have improved my message by saying to me however, just for clarity.

The person I was responding to the first time used the word FACT. Fact is not opinion. I never claimed my opinion was fact.

I will in the future, try to remember to add “to me” to posts more often. I had erroneously assumed that best to worst would be automatically assumed to be an opinion. I know for a fact that facts aren’t actually opinions though, and arguments that state they’re facts when they’re not are, to me, the worst kind of hyperbole.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.

You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.

If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.

Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.

The worst type of statement can only be opinion. There is no objective worst. I could definitely have improved my message by saying to me however, just for clarity.

The person I was responding to the first time used the word FACT. Fact is not opinion. I never claimed my opinion was fact.

I will in the future, try to remember to add “to me” to posts more often. I had erroneously assumed that best to worst would be automatically assumed to be an opinion. I know for a fact that facts aren’t actually opinions though, and arguments that state they’re facts when they’re not are, to me, the worst kind of hyperbole.

He used the word worse too.

Interestingly enough his statement was factual. If someone cannot handle the existing difficulty of the game, to the point that the developers have to reduce its complexity/difficulty in order for that someone to play the game they are, by definition, “worse,” at the game than those who could handle the full difficulty.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.

I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.

You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.

If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.

Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.

The worst type of statement can only be opinion. There is no objective worst. I could definitely have improved my message by saying to me however, just for clarity.

The person I was responding to the first time used the word FACT. Fact is not opinion. I never claimed my opinion was fact.

I will in the future, try to remember to add “to me” to posts more often. I had erroneously assumed that best to worst would be automatically assumed to be an opinion. I know for a fact that facts aren’t actually opinions though, and arguments that state they’re facts when they’re not are, to me, the worst kind of hyperbole.

He used the word worse too.

Interestingly enough his statement was factual. If someone cannot handle the existing difficulty of the game, to the point that the developers have to reduce its complexity/difficulty in order for that someone to play the game they are, by definition, “worse,” at the game than those who could handle the full difficulty.

His statement isn’t factual. You’re assuming no one that learns more slowly can get to play the game well over time. Everyone learns at different rates, but it doesn’t mean they can’t attain the same level.

I have people in my guild who were appauling at this game who are now good. It took them more time to get there, but better players helped and didn’t give up on them. It’s part of what makes my guild so strong.

I suggest that the tangent on hyperbole has run on longer than it needed to. People are basically having a kittening contest now, instead of discussing the thread topic.

As far as game difficulty goes:

• I strongly believe that difficulty that would satisfy the best players is never going to happen in the persistent world.
• I also believe that claims about the lack of difficulty are linked to focus on rewards. Unfocused dungeon runs are much harder than focused speed runs. Soloing a group event is much harder than herd play.
• The nature of damage mitigation in GW2 works against difficulty. Increasing the damage done by mobs beyond the 1-3 hit downs I see regularly is meaningless if a player can avoid the hit.
• Basic mob damage could be taken higher. However, many times in the game design, players are faced with needing to fight numbers of mobs. Making a single mob a challenge (as one sees to some degree in Wildstar) would mean a redesign of much of the game. That’s not to say that a lesser buff to mob damage in general would be unwarranted.

They should make an option that you can turn on before story and living world instances that sets a point so that if you fail, you’re completely kicked out and would have to try again. I’d use that option.

Edit: Obviously the option would default to the easier setting and to be safe, there should be a warning on it, in case someone using the option forgets they’ve used it and end up frustrating themselves into quitting the game…because that can happen. Warning. You are entering unforgiving mode. You must complete this mission without dying.

Vayne.8563:

Everyone learns at different rates, but it doesn’t mean they can’t attain the same level.

Neither does it mean they can, with even less guarantee they will.

Vayne.8563:

I have people in my guild who were appauling at this game who are now good. It took them more time to get there, but better players helped and didn’t give up on them. It’s part of what makes my guild so strong.

I have players in guild who were so dead bored already with the previous instance of levelling that most did not break the 30/40ish mark. Those same people, however, actually felt doing high-end stuff on GW, just to compare.

Anyhow, interesting question here:
Why do Radiant and Hellfire armor skins, which are locked behind borderline trollish amount of AP, get a sound thumbs-up by the community as ‘long-term goals’, while unique rewards tied to challenging content seem to automatically spell the end of the world?
Because they are in theory available to everyone?
(not really)

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

Everyone learns at different rates, but it doesn’t mean they can’t attain the same level.

Neither does it mean they can, with even less guarantee they will.

Vayne.8563:

I have people in my guild who were appauling at this game who are now good. It took them more time to get there, but better players helped and didn’t give up on them. It’s part of what makes my guild so strong.

I have players in guild who were so dead bored already with the previous instance of levelling that most did not break the 30/40ish mark. Those same people, however, actually felt doing high-end stuff on GW, just to compare.

Anyhow, interesting question here:
Why do Radiant and Hellfire armor skins, which are locked behind borderline trollish amount of AP, get a sound thumbs-up by the community as ‘long-term goals’, while unique rewards tied to challenging content seem to automatically spell the end of the world?
Because they are in theory available to everyone?
(not really)

No idea. I’m not a fan of the way those armor sets are delivered. The achievement point cost is far too high.

And I don’t really have objections to say the new PvP skins, which you need to PvP to get. I wouldn’t really have objects to WvW skins, that you had to WvW to get.

I think it depends on the specific skin though. I get the feeling that the kind of skins people want for doing harder content will be the best looking skins in the game. I don’t think they’ll be satisfied with just another skin.

But don’t look to me for support of the Radiant and Hellfire stuff, because I don’t support it.

Yet many seem to be in favour of it (read thread with said sets in its title).
Which is, truth be told, rather funny.

Why are most of you creating a false dichotomy in this thread?

A game doesn’t have to cater to the hardcore crowd by neglecting casuals or vice versa. A game can contain elements for both communities (and everyone in between).

That being said, there is no good argument for not including more challenging content, especially since some of the biggest complaints about the game are lack of new permanent content.

Also: Throwing out an idea for those people who say challenging content causes some players to cry in a corner out of frustration and uninstall the game; why not offer incremental rewards for challenging content. Something like a reward for reaching a certain point within an instance, a new reward for being able to survive against waves of enemies every 2 minutes, rewards for reducing boss health to 75%, 50%, 25%, etc. There are ways to reward players for attempting and improving performance in challenging content without alienating them.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Anyhow, interesting question here:
Why do Radiant and Hellfire armor skins, which are locked behind borderline trollish amount of AP, get a sound thumbs-up by the community as ‘long-term goals’, while unique rewards tied to challenging content seem to automatically spell the end of the world?

They do? That’s news to me. Looking at the thread about them, it seems to me that it’s the same type of people that defend Radiant/hellfire and want unique rewards elsewhere, so the dichotomy you try to present doesn’t actually exist.

NewTrain.7549:

A game doesn’t have to cater to the hardcore crowd by neglecting casuals or vice versa. A game can contain elements for both communities (and everyone in between).

Yes. it can. Problem is, we’re not talking here purely about difficult content. We’re talking also about unique rewards tied to that content.
Basically, hardcore and casual can indeed coexist in the same game. When we’re talking about elitists however, the situation changes. Elitist people do need casuals to exist (you cannot be special when everyone else is special as well, to be “better” you need people that are “worse” than you are). Casuals on the other hand would do better without elitists around. Game that caters to elitists always does it at the expense of casuals.

Some people wanted rewards that could not be obtained 2 days after the implementation.

Here they have: radiant and hell fire armour.

Last time Anet put some reward behind high end content it was the wurmslayer armour. It failed to encourage the players to go back doing the wurm since it is “not rewarding enough” and “gold/hour ration is not high enough”.

Truth be told, anet added some challenging content in the game (wasn’t the main focus but still). Sand giant : nobody doing it. Aetherblade path: very few groups doing it. I can continue on with the list.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. it can. Problem is, we’re not talking here purely about difficult content. We’re talking also about unique rewards tied to that content.
Basically, hardcore and casual can indeed coexist in the same game. When we’re talking about elitists however, the situation changes. Elitist people do need casuals to exist (you cannot be special when everyone else is special as well, to be “better” you need people that are “worse” than you are). Casuals on the other hand would do better without elitists around. Game that caters to elitists always does it at the expense of casuals.

No. You’re talking about elitists. The thread was simply about challenging content. It was the anti-challenging content crowd that introduced the fear of elitism into the discussion. Frankly, it’s misdirection and has no place.

NewTrain.7549:

No. You’re talking about elitists. The thread was simply about challenging content. It was the anti-challenging content crowd that introduced the fear of elitism into the discussion. Frankly, it’s misdirection and has no place.

Elitism appeared in this topic the very moment we started discussing rewards. Difficult content that does not offer increased rewards is not so strongly contested, after all, if you haven’t noticed.