Guild Wars 2

Draknar.5748:

This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

you are probably speaking from WoW LFR perspective.

NoTrigger.8396:

Draknar.5748:

This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

you are probably speaking from WoW LFR perspective.

Well, discrimination based on time and skill is not that much better. At least in a game mostly aimed at casuals.

Astralporing.1957:

NoTrigger.8396:

Draknar.5748:

This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

you are probably speaking from WoW LFR perspective.

Well, discrimination based on time and skill is not that much better. At least in a game mostly aimed at casuals.

They don’t have to make challenging rewarding content require a lot if time in one sitting

phys.7689:

Astralporing.1957:

NoTrigger.8396:

Draknar.5748:

This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

you are probably speaking from WoW LFR perspective.

Well, discrimination based on time and skill is not that much better. At least in a game mostly aimed at casuals.

They don’t have to make challenging rewarding content require a lot if time in one sitting

No they don’t, but let’s say they add something like Tequatl but in instance form for 25 people. People would still complain that our “raids” are basically just big boss fights with no substance.

The majority of people asking for raids, in my opinion, are looking for that long, dungeon type experience, not just a boss fight. Something with multiple bosses, maybe a mini story to go along with it. Otherwise we are simply talking instanced boss fights, which even then can take ~30min+ (including prep time) for one boss. I have a feeling players wanting raid content would not be satisfied with something so simple.

Anything over an hour and you will lose a large % of the population. A lot of people avoid FoTM because of the time commitment, raids would be no different. Some people complain if a dungeon path run exceeds 15-20min for crying out loud.

Simply put, raids are typically not targeted towards casual players, and GW2 is filled with casual players, and likely those casual players are the ones paying the bills as they will supplement their lack of play time with gems (for gold conversion) to keep up with the jones’.

How I want difficult content :

You need to know what is happening -> Avoid X thing or you die. Guy is immune to X type of damage for a short time. You need to move around to attack different things.

There is a variety of play during the fight -> Don’t just stand there and unleash your DPS. Different phase / damage : Lupicus best example, but less OP…

You need to prepare your group before going in -> I know we need to able to play with every class, but I think we need to have a sense of party composition : not everyone needs to be DPS, some one need to be more tanky to be able to go to this place and hold this while we clear this ; lots of conditions in this area, so some one need to spec for condi cleansing…

Difficult =/= long and tedious content : I want lots of fights or thinking with rather short phase (don’t make me repeat the same boss skill rotation 10x before we can get to the next phase)

I think the last LS with the dragon fight was a good step forward (all those dialogues kinda killed it tough) but I feel like we still aren’t there yet. I’d like more interaction with the boss, not only : Survive when he does damage, DPS him when he’s weak. What I’d feel like challenging would be to have him throw / use things to disrupt his attacks, having a certain position to deal extra damage or do something specific during the surviving phase so he is weaker than usual. Lots of small things that could benefit active plays and movement instead of this boring stacking meta (no talking about this fight in particular but the general PvE experience).

All and all, I feel like the last LS boss fight was a huge improvement in combat fight. Let’s see if they can keep improving on that and reflect this on other gameplay area, not only special boss fight.

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort of doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Mostly agree with this, although I think it’s better to reward individual player skill instead of time spent i.e. lock exclusive skins behind hard encounters, not 3 hour raids.

I personally am a casual. I spend 4-5 hours per week at most in the game and read the forums once or twice a week. I don’t have that much time and I will never have a legendary, even though that spear is pretty sweet. I will never have that exclusive tournament SPvP armor. I will never have the wurm armor, even though it’d fit my style perfectly, simply because I have better things to do than throw a full hour per day away, as most groups require you to show up ridiculously early for a fixed spot (not even accounting getting locked out because of overflows).
Coming from WoW, I never raided, just didn’t have the time. So naturally, I’d never have all the flashy armor and mounts that dropped exclusively in high end raids
and you know what?

That’s alright. What’s wrong with stuff for people who have more time/skill/dedication than you? The sheer amount of entitled people on these forums is mind boggling.

Crovax.7854:

What’s wrong with stuff for people who have more time/skill/dedication than you? The sheer amount of entitled people on these forums is mind boggling.

I can see rewarding time spent to some degree. It’s inevitable in MMO’s to some degree. The MMO genre is nothing but a vast money and time sink if you look at it without the rose-colored glasses. Acquisition of rewards in MMO’s is always going to take time. Ergo, more time spent yields acquisition of reward sooner (absent time gating).

Dedication in an MMO is indistinguishable from time, since time spent is the product.

I can sort of see rewarding skill. I’ve nothing against the odd reward that’s placed at the end of content I might not do. Liadri mini? Fine. Wurm armor? Fine. Too much of this, though, and you alienate too much of the player-base — depending on where in the skill continuum the skill barrier for content is.

Entitlement, though? I’d say there’s as much on both sides of the exclusive rewards divide. Everyone’s $60 (or whatever one paid) is the same, after all.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I can see rewarding time spent to some degree. It’s inevitable in MMO’s to some degree. The MMO genre is nothing but a vast money and time sink if you look at it without the rose-colored glasses. Acquisition of rewards in MMO’s is always going to take time. Ergo, more time spent yields acquisition of reward sooner (absent time gating).

I agree, however I feel there should be the option to circumvent tedious grind/timegating through completeing challenging content.
Take the new PvP armor as an example; Flashy version for the 1% through tournament win and a not so flashy version with bigger time commitment for the rest of us.
That’s a step in the right direction in my opinion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Entitlement, though? I’d say there’s as much on both sides of the exclusive rewards divide. Everyone’s $60 (or whatever one paid) is the same, after all.

I feel paying the 60$ entitles you to play the game, however it doesn’t mean you should get all of the rewards simply on the basis that you ‘bought the base game’. If a challenge is part of the game and you can’t beat it, it means you need to get better. The journey of improving and overcoming hardships is what distinguishes a videogame from an interactive movie.

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Yes but time requirement =/= skill. There can be shorter, high difficulty alternatives that yield the same result. Or better yet have rewards be token based like dungeons. If you do a 25-man raid you get significantly more tokens than a shorter/5man dungeon, but both are challenging. That way, people with high skill levels but little time (because you know, real life) are still able to work towards rewards geared towards challenge.

From my perspective I see no reason to differentiate a good player with a 3hr chunk of time to play from a good player with 3 1hr chunks of time to play. Because think of it this way: you could have someone who plays 10hr/week (~1.5hr/day for 7 days) who is a great player unable to complete raids because of time commitments, and thus will not be able to get highest level rewards; while conversely you can have someone who plays 6hr/week (3hrs on two different days) able to get the highest level gear.

How is that fair to the person who plays more, they just can’t dedicate the same time chunks. And for the sake of this example let’s say the first guy is twice as good a player as the second guy. The second guy only logs on to run the raid, mostly carried by his guild, and then logs out. That guy doesn’t deserve better gear than the first guy. Not in my opinion.

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Yes but time requirement =/= skill. There can be shorter, high difficulty alternatives that yield the same result. Or better yet have rewards be token based like dungeons. If you do a 25-man raid you get significantly more tokens than a shorter/5man dungeon, but both are challenging. That way, people with high skill levels but little time (because you know, real life) are still able to work towards rewards geared towards challenge.

From my perspective I see no reason to differentiate a good player with a 3hr chunk of time to play from a good player with 3 1hr chunks of time to play. Because think of it this way: you could have someone who plays 10hr/week (~1.5hr/day for 7 days) who is a great player unable to complete raids because of time commitments, and thus will not be able to get highest level rewards; while conversely you can have someone who plays 6hr/week (3hrs on two different days) able to get the highest level gear.

How is that fair to the person who plays more, they just can’t dedicate the same time chunks. And for the sake of this example let’s say the first guy is twice as good a player as the second guy. The second guy only logs on to run the raid, mostly carried by his guild, and then logs out. That guy doesn’t deserve better gear than the first guy. Not in my opinion.

When someone plays only 3hours per whole week that is a casual player in it’s finest.When i play dota 2 i know that only 1 my game will be atleast 40 minutes.in 3 hours i barelly will have played 5 games.If i spread those games between 7 days that will be nothing.Really nothing.It’s 1 game per day.Come on that is what a casual would do.

If the good player wants to be great he has to put time and dedication in what he is doing.Pure skill and tallent won’t bring him anywhere if he doesn’t put some effort and more than 3 hours per week of play time.The raiders in other MMOs and most competitve PvP players put more than 3 hours per day to become good and stay that way.

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Yes but time requirement =/= skill. There can be shorter, high difficulty alternatives that yield the same result. Or better yet have rewards be token based like dungeons. If you do a 25-man raid you get significantly more tokens than a shorter/5man dungeon, but both are challenging. That way, people with high skill levels but little time (because you know, real life) are still able to work towards rewards geared towards challenge.

From my perspective I see no reason to differentiate a good player with a 3hr chunk of time to play from a good player with 3 1hr chunks of time to play. Because think of it this way: you could have someone who plays 10hr/week (~1.5hr/day for 7 days) who is a great player unable to complete raids because of time commitments, and thus will not be able to get highest level rewards; while conversely you can have someone who plays 6hr/week (3hrs on two different days) able to get the highest level gear.

How is that fair to the person who plays more, they just can’t dedicate the same time chunks. And for the sake of this example let’s say the first guy is twice as good a player as the second guy. The second guy only logs on to run the raid, mostly carried by his guild, and then logs out. That guy doesn’t deserve better gear than the first guy. Not in my opinion.

When someone plays only 3hours per whole week that is a casual player in it’s finest.When i play dota 2 i know that only 1 my game will be atleast 40 minutes.in 3 hours i barelly will have played 5 games.If i spread those games between 7 days that will be nothing.Really nothing.It’s 1 game per day.Come on that is what a casual would do.

If the good player wants to be great he has to put time and dedication in what he is doing.Pure skill and tallent won’t bring him anywhere if he doesn’t put some effort and more than 3 hours per week of play time.The raiders in other MMOs and most competitve PvP players put more than 3 hours per day to become good and stay that way.

No no, you missed my point entirely, sorry I didn’t explain it well enough I suppose.

Let’s say the first guy has 3000hrs played, used to be able to play all the time, but now his wife had triplets and, while still being able to play regularly, he can’t dedicate as much time in one sitting as he used to (but still able to play more per week from second guy). The second guy, in this example, has 1000hrs played, happens to be in an active guild and while he doesn’t even like playing the game anymore, he will suffer GW2 long enough to get through the raid once a week so he can get the best gear, since that’s all he really cares about. He literally doesn’t log in any other time.

Why is it fair to essentially prohibit someone with more experience and skill, but a different play schedule, from getting the best gear in the game, while allowing someone who is mediocre and doesn’t even like the game anymore to have access to the best gear simply because he can play for a longer chunk of time on a random day?

The short answer is: it isn’t fair.

Crovax.7854:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I can see rewarding time spent to some degree. It’s inevitable in MMO’s to some degree. The MMO genre is nothing but a vast money and time sink if you look at it without the rose-colored glasses. Acquisition of rewards in MMO’s is always going to take time. Ergo, more time spent yields acquisition of reward sooner (absent time gating).

I agree, however I feel there should be the option to circumvent tedious grind/timegating through completeing challenging content.
Take the new PvP armor as an example; Flashy version for the 1% through tournament win and a not so flashy version with bigger time commitment for the rest of us.
That’s a step in the right direction in my opinion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Entitlement, though? I’d say there’s as much on both sides of the exclusive rewards divide. Everyone’s $60 (or whatever one paid) is the same, after all.

I feel paying the 60$ entitles you to play the game, however it doesn’t mean you should get all of the rewards simply on the basis that you ‘bought the base game’. If a challenge is part of the game and you can’t beat it, it means you need to get better. The journey of improving and overcoming hardships is what distinguishes a videogame from an interactive movie.

In agreement on the PvP armor being a step in the right direction. As to “overcoming hardships”… that is perhaps an unfortunate choice of words. Maybe overcoming challenges? Being able to afford a video game is a bellwether for not suffering from hardships. Feeling entitled to exclusive rewards because one put effort into a video game is not less of an entitlement than any other.

As I said above, I’m fine with some exclusive rewards. I don’t want to see ANet go overboard with them, and I don’t want to see stat gains exclusive to any one type of content.

I don’t mind GW2’s model where everything is cosmetic based.But places like Arah/TA:AE/FotM and bosses like Tequatl/Wurm must have better loot.

Why? I mean, I can see why you would want them to offer better loot, as you want to do those activities and it would be nice if you could get bonus loot for playing how you want to play, but why should other players who don’t want to play that content view it as fair?

In the real life, difficulty is typically rewarded, because there is incentive to do a job that needs doing, but that people wouldn’t bother with if it wasn’t rewarding enough. If you take on a more difficult job, you tend to get paid more than less difficult jobs, because you provide a social service or increase profits to your company. But you running Teq or Arah isn’t making the game better for anyone else, you are not providing a necessary service, why should you be paid more than anyone else?

It’s a game, if you don’t want to run a raid unless the reward is greater than other tasks, then that’s fine, don’t run the raid, nobody will care. If you do want to run the raid, then run it, whether you get bonus rewards or not. Don’t expect bonus play for having fun.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t mind GW2’s model where everything is cosmetic based.But places like Arah/TA:AE/FotM and bosses like Tequatl/Wurm must have better loot.

Why? I mean, I can see why you would want them to offer better loot, as you want to do those activities and it would be nice if you could get bonus loot for playing how you want to play, but why should other players who don’t want to play that content view it as fair?

In the real life, difficulty is typically rewarded, because there is incentive to do a job that needs doing, but that people wouldn’t bother with if it wasn’t rewarding enough. If you take on a more difficult job, you tend to get paid more than less difficult jobs, because you provide a social service or increase profits to your company. But you running Teq or Arah isn’t making the game better for anyone else, you are not providing a necessary service, why should you be paid more than anyone else?

It’s a game, if you don’t want to run a raid unless the reward is greater than other tasks, then that’s fine, don’t run the raid, nobody will care. If you do want to run the raid, then run it, whether you get bonus rewards or not. Don’t expect bonus play for having fun.

Let’s leave RL out of this. Why? Professions that are the most dangerous, and that offer the most to society, are far from being the most rewarding financially.

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Doesn’t deserve? Really? Of every post in this thread, this is probably the one I disagree with the most.

It’s like saying a person coming into a computer store without the capacity to know the intracacies of computers deserves to be sold a lesser computer. This isn’t the Olympics. Not everyone buys this game to be competitive. In fact, I doubt most people buy this game to be competitive.

Anet is a business not a charity. That’s a fact. This isn’t about right and wrong, fair or not fair. This is a game. Not a competitive game either. In many ways it’s a game of chance.

You want it to be a competitive game, but then, only the best players by percentage would get the best rewards. Is that best for business? I sure don’t think so.

There are plenty of people who are really good at stuff that never get financially rewarded. Some of the best writers in the world will never be published. Why? Because they’re great at writing and bad at everything else that goes on in the publishing industry. They’re bad at networking. Bad at selling themselves. Bad at reading market trends. But they write because writing is it’s own reward.

For a competitive person, getting better IS the reward. But as far as I know you haven’t spent more on the game than anyone else and don’t “deserve” more than anyone else. Everyone who paid for this game deserves a fun experience and the chance to get rewards, whether they’re as competent at you at video games or not.

You know what would happen if all the “bads” left this game.

There wouldn’t be a game. People should think about that before they start talking about what they do and don’t deserve.

Almost by definition the best players are going to be a minority, because that best are always a minority. The top 5%. The top 10%. When you start segregating rewards so only they can get it, and give no path to others, you will soon find yourself playing alone with that 5%.

Players are their own worst enemy.

1. Do you think there is already enough challenging content that requires strategy and coordination in this game?

A: On some things, yes. These things are considered easy. On others, no. This would be like (high level) Fractals and Arah, wherein the “strategy” is to stack in a certain corner and make sure you have enough guardians to reflect all damage and an ele to stack might. I’m not a fan of a strat that requires a certain group composition for an otherwise stupidly broken boss.

2. If Anet did design more challenging content, would there even be enough players to play it?

A: I don’t hear a whole lot of conversation about everyone wanting to do Triple Threat, so its more those niche guilds that can organize it, then your everyday player like me.

3. Is the zerg mentality too strong to even prevent some development?

A: Theres nothing wrong with the zerg. Be the zerg. Love the zerg. The zerg gets things done. ALL HAIL THE ZERG!!!

4. What would more challenging content in GW2 look like?

A: Bosses that drop 20 conditions on you and they hit you for 30k per attack..wait…I believe thats already in the game. LOLs is me!

The problem ANet needs to fix before they consider this and “raids”, is to make the stats work in a unique way with the mobs and bosses. They really haven’t done that and thats kinda why the winning solution here is everyone runs zerker and finds way to break already broken bosses.

Too many people make the asumption harder content = raids here, while it could also be the much more realistic picture of a level cap raise on fractals, a new 5 man dungeon that puts the difficulty bar a bit higher, a revamp of shatterer/jormag or even a permanent version of the gauntlet with bosses harder than Liadri for the people who like solo content. (ofc none of those are realistic either, we don’t have enough NPE yet, just a lot more than proper instanced raids)

slamfunction.7462:

This would be like (high level) Fractals and Arah, wherein the “strategy” is to stack in a certain corner

Please tell me how many bosses you stack in corners in high level fractals or even Arah now FGS got nerfed.

cranos.5913:

Too many people make the asumption harder content = raids here, while it could also be the much more realistic picture of a level cap raise on fractals, a new 5 man dungeon that puts the difficulty bar a bit higher, a revamp of shatterer/jormag or even a permanent version of the gauntlet with bosses harder than Liadri for the people who like solo content. (ofc none of those are realistic either, we don’t have enough NPE yet, just a lot more than proper instanced raids)

I’d be fine with all of that — except the Shatt/Jormag revamps if that means making them into Teq 2.0 and 3.0. I think Jormag is in a pretty good place and Shatt just needs to attack that flipping hill and move around some. I’ve nothing against periodically adding a new raid boss in GW2 but it should be a new fight, not a revamp.

IndigoSundown.5419:

cranos.5913:

Too many people make the asumption harder content = raids here, while it could also be the much more realistic picture of a level cap raise on fractals, a new 5 man dungeon that puts the difficulty bar a bit higher, a revamp of shatterer/jormag or even a permanent version of the gauntlet with bosses harder than Liadri for the people who like solo content. (ofc none of those are realistic either, we don’t have enough NPE yet, just a lot more than proper instanced raids)

I’d be fine with all of that — except the Shatt/Jormag revamps if that means making them into Teq 2.0 and 3.0. I think Jormag is in a pretty good place and Shatt just needs to attack that flipping hill and move around some. I’ve nothing against periodically adding a new raid boss in GW2 but it should be a new fight, not a revamp.

That’s fair enough, I can understand wanting something brand new instead of replacing older content. No more TAFU still doesn’t sit right with me… I don’t really have an opinion about world bosses tbh, I find them all equally boring. Just not my thing I guess. I just added them because it seems a lot more likely to appear in the game than instanced raids.

Crovax.7854:

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort of doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Mostly agree with this, although I think it’s better to reward individual player skill instead of time spent i.e. lock exclusive skins behind hard encounters, not 3 hour raids.

I personally am a casual. I spend 4-5 hours per week at most in the game and read the forums once or twice a week. I don’t have that much time and I will never have a legendary, even though that spear is pretty sweet. I will never have that exclusive tournament SPvP armor. I will never have the wurm armor, even though it’d fit my style perfectly, simply because I have better things to do than throw a full hour per day away, as most groups require you to show up ridiculously early for a fixed spot (not even accounting getting locked out because of overflows).
Coming from WoW, I never raided, just didn’t have the time. So naturally, I’d never have all the flashy armor and mounts that dropped exclusively in high end raids
and you know what?

That’s alright. What’s wrong with stuff for people who have more time/skill/dedication than you? The sheer amount of entitled people on these forums is mind boggling.

Then level the playing field. Eliminate gold to gems. Make time items, acquirable by only those with time, and money items, acquirable only by those with money. The entitlement argument works both ways.

People who think others aren’t entitled to things they get for spending time shouldn’t feel entitled to the same things that other people get for spending money. Especially when that money pays for the content…

Let’s leave RL out of this. Why? Professions that are the most dangerous, and that offer the most to society, are far from being the most rewarding financially.

True, but they’re typically more rewarding than other jobs of equivalent skill level.

Too many people make the asumption harder content = raids here, while it could also be the much more realistic picture of a level cap raise on fractals, a new 5 man dungeon that puts the difficulty bar a bit higher, a revamp of shatterer/jormag or even a permanent version of the gauntlet with bosses harder than Liadri for the people who like solo content. (ofc none of those are realistic either, we don’t have enough NPE yet, just a lot more than proper instanced raids)

What difference does it make? I’d kinda prefer raids to any of that other stuff, but ideally I’d just like more stuff like Dry Top, only with a more relaxed meta.

And Jormag is just about perfect the way he is. Shatterer could be tweaked a bit, but hopefully not like Teq was. Ideally they would tweak both Wurm and Teq down a bit so that they scale better to the size and composition of the players on the map, rather than some intended “capped map” standard.

If anet want to add harder content that’s fine, I just hope it’s not instanced.

Ohoni.6057:

Let’s leave RL out of this. Why? Professions that are the most dangerous, and that offer the most to society, are far from being the most rewarding financially.

True, but they’re typically more rewarding than other jobs of equivalent skill level.

As a matter of fact, playing the rl version of the AH is most profitable, while things like working on an oil platform, or in public service (police, firefighters, medics, construction …) is usually mediocre or subpar in terms of financial reward.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘other jobs of equivalent skill level’… perhaps in the sense of hobby firefighter vs professional firefighter?

As a matter of fact, playing the rl version of the AH is most profitable, while things like working on an oil platform, or in public service (police, firefighters, medics, construction …) is usually mediocre or subpar in terms of financial reward.

Right, as I said, “of similar skill level.” I’m not a fan of the inequities of the modern economy, but there is some point to it. If policemen or firefighters were capable of being successful stock brokers then they’d likely do it, but they can’t because they don’t have the sense of the economy that actual stock brokers do. But being a policeman or fireman tends to pay better than many other jobs that they would be capable of with the required level of education and capability. Stock brokering is the more profitable of the tasks because it is the more difficult, if not the more life threatening.

I have to say this about the zerg mentality: if this is the only thing players will do, then they must be educated otherwise.

As for more challenging content, I feel it would be a good start to go back to the discreet warning circles rather than the solid orange horribly obvious broadcasts.

Okay, im gonna cut back to the original topic :p.

I think all we need is a new mob AI. This game has pretty challenging content. Two days ago i was in CoF p3 (Rhiannon) with my guildmates, and it was challenging – it was fun. We were all level 80 with quite some experience, and we wiped multiple times. We needed some form of strategy to complete it.

The problem is, people find ways to break the content and make it easy, and Anet doesn’t fix them. Most notably, i think Anet should do something about stacking. Prevent people from stacking all the mobs in one spot and AoE-ing them to oblivion under the cover of a guardian’s reflect wall, and all of your (in my opinion reasonably challenging) dungeon content comes back out. When was the last time you were in SE p1 and fought those three golems out in the open, and Tazza in her little room with Troop Commander Kaeyi present?

1. Do you think there is already enough challenging content that requires strategy and coordination in this game?

Not personally. Yes, there is alot of fun and challenging content, but i’d still like to see more. I’m really hoping the CDI on raids leads to something fun, and for raids to actually be implemented into the game. I also loved challenging content like the Crown Pavilion and the Prime Hologram and hope we’re getting more of this content back as permanent content.

There is already quite some challenging content though, people just find ways to break most of it.

2. If Anet did design more challenging content, would there even be enough players to play it?

I think so. If there are rewards that are scaled to the difficulty of the content, definitely. Knowing this community, i think plenty of people would want to spend time and effort to do challenging content if they were appropriately rewarded.

3. Is the zerg mentality too strong to even prevent some development?

No. Yes, the zerg mentality is strong, but as we’ve seen in the Crown Pavilion, there are definitely ways of preventing people from zerging up, and the community will adapt. I’ve personally been in charge of gold crown pavilions multiple times, it was really fun to do. At first it was difficult to get people to follow, but once people understood how the content should be approached, people were glad to follow the commanders advice to victory instead of zerging up.

4. What would more challenging content in GW2 look like?

Something like dungeons really, raids, or like the Scarlet’s Prime Hologram. Either something that needs a big coordinated effort from a group that consists of more than just attacking specific things at specific times, or a dungeon style 5-man-party thing that prevents people from stacking and forces them to actually use skill to fight.

The latter already exists i think, but faced with easily rushable dungeons, many people avoid the harder things because they’re less rewarding.
The former… well, i think one very important feature would have to be that its not timegated. Tequatl is a big step in the right direction for this kind – its challenging, needs alot of people, needs competent commanders etc. But your big problem is that the entire thing is timegated, and people can only get rewards from it once daily. This means that after every kill, everyone gets their rewards, and the entire crew disbands, with all the people and commanders going their own way. Yes, Tequatl is killed in one of the instances most of the time, but theres many other places where it isn’t. If the timegate were to be taken off, competent commanders and active crews could continue to do this, new people replacing those leaving, instead of assembling everyone just for the single kill.

As for more challenging content, I feel it would be a good start to go back to the discreet warning circles rather than the solid orange horribly obvious broadcasts.

Boooooo. We need more orange telegraphs, not less. There’s no skill involved in avoiding attacks that you can’t see coming because they are hidden in the mess of incoming player attacks.

No. Yes, the zerg mentality is strong, but as we’ve seen in the Crown Pavilion, there are definitely ways of preventing people from zerging up, and the community will adapt. I’ve personally been in charge of gold crown pavilions multiple times, it was really fun to do. At first it was difficult to get people to follow, but once people understood how the content should be approached, people were glad to follow the commanders advice to victory instead of zerging up.

But the Crown Pavilion is a perfect example of 7-8/10 on goals, 4/10 on execution. Yes, if you are on a gold map then the zerg splits well, but because the game does such a poor job of automatically communicating this to the players, any random PUG map is fairly well doomed.And really, all the Pavilion did was split the one zerg into six, which actually doesn’t improve much of anything.

The real benefit to the Crown Pavilion was not in splitting the zerg, but in each boss having tactics that required slightly more attention than “stand and hit 1.” I mostly specialized on Pyro over that month, which was hardly the most demanding of the bosses, but it was pretty fun timing out reflects and knowing when to deal with his Retaliation.

Dry Top splits the zerg reasonably well too, as there are a few places where Zerging is fine, some where it’s downright pointless or even counterproductive, but ultimately you need at least 6-8 distinct groups moving around the map at any given time to hit T6 (mostly very small parties though). The problem again though is a complete lack of built in organization. From your own viewpoint, it’s impossible to tell which events are working and which are not. You can only estimate based on chat with people who may or may not be working the various events. Instead, the UI should clearly display every single event that is operating in the zone, and how well each is doing, how many players are there, and how many more are needed.

The mechanics should make sure that everyone knows what they should be doing, rather than requiring players to organize the map somehow.

Given the mechanics and AI on release all I’m expecting is “rinse and repeat” content akin to Hardmode in GW1. People seem to forget these games are marketed towards the casual end of the market. Choosing to play them like other end-game focused MMO’s, and as a consequence mistakenly placing the same demands and expectations on the game, is not valid critique for lack of end game or “harder” content imho.

The fault of expectation becomes more apparent when most of the time such critique is from the vocal minority that play the game 8 hours a day, have 10+ 80’S and a dozen legendaries.

I agree content updates in general need improvement but when 99% of the content can be done by using a ranged weapon and spamming one skill…from day one….it seems pretty obvious that this is a game many hardcore players will become disenchanted with and if played 24/7, get burnt out on fairly quickly.

My only point of contention is the fact these expectations exist outside newer players to the franchise who through inexperience would have valid, if slightly miss-guided, complaint.

Vets who came to GW2 expecting amazing end-game…seriously?lol.Have you forgotten GWAMM already?

Spyritdragon.6048:

Okay, im gonna cut back to the original topic :p.

I think all we need is a new mob AI. This game has pretty challenging content. Two days ago i was in CoF p3 (Rhiannon) with my guildmates, and it was challenging – it was fun. We were all level 80 with quite some experience, and we wiped multiple times. We needed some form of strategy to complete it.

The problem is, people find ways to break the content and make it easy, and Anet doesn’t fix them. Most notably, i think Anet should do something about stacking. Prevent people from stacking all the mobs in one spot and AoE-ing them to oblivion under the cover of a guardian’s reflect wall, and all of your (in my opinion reasonably challenging) dungeon content comes back out. When was the last time you were in SE p1 and fought those three golems out in the open, and Tazza in her little room with Troop Commander Kaeyi present?

1. Do you think there is already enough challenging content that requires strategy and coordination in this game?

Not personally. Yes, there is alot of fun and challenging content, but i’d still like to see more. I’m really hoping the CDI on raids leads to something fun, and for raids to actually be implemented into the game. I also loved challenging content like the Crown Pavilion and the Prime Hologram and hope we’re getting more of this content back as permanent content.

There is already quite some challenging content though, people just find ways to break most of it.

2. If Anet did design more challenging content, would there even be enough players to play it?

I think so. If there are rewards that are scaled to the difficulty of the content, definitely. Knowing this community, i think plenty of people would want to spend time and effort to do challenging content if they were appropriately rewarded.

3. Is the zerg mentality too strong to even prevent some development?

No. Yes, the zerg mentality is strong, but as we’ve seen in the Crown Pavilion, there are definitely ways of preventing people from zerging up, and the community will adapt. I’ve personally been in charge of gold crown pavilions multiple times, it was really fun to do. At first it was difficult to get people to follow, but once people understood how the content should be approached, people were glad to follow the commanders advice to victory instead of zerging up.

4. What would more challenging content in GW2 look like?

Something like dungeons really, raids, or like the Scarlet’s Prime Hologram. Either something that needs a big coordinated effort from a group that consists of more than just attacking specific things at specific times, or a dungeon style 5-man-party thing that prevents people from stacking and forces them to actually use skill to fight.

The latter already exists i think, but faced with easily rushable dungeons, many people avoid the harder things because they’re less rewarding.
The former… well, i think one very important feature would have to be that its not timegated. Tequatl is a big step in the right direction for this kind – its challenging, needs alot of people, needs competent commanders etc. But your big problem is that the entire thing is timegated, and people can only get rewards from it once daily. This means that after every kill, everyone gets their rewards, and the entire crew disbands, with all the people and commanders going their own way. Yes, Tequatl is killed in one of the instances most of the time, but theres many other places where it isn’t. If the timegate were to be taken off, competent commanders and active crews could continue to do this, new people replacing those leaving, instead of assembling everyone just for the single kill.

yes I can agree with you content which we already have can be challenging but stacking/dpsing make it easy as hell , mobs should get some aoe which they drop on your location when they cant see you for example ascalonian mags ,when they cant see you ,they shouldnt run toward you , they should stay on their possition and use some massive meteor aoe to make you leave your corner .

Ohoni.6057:

As a matter of fact, playing the rl version of the AH is most profitable, while things like working on an oil platform, or in public service (police, firefighters, medics, construction …) is usually mediocre or subpar in terms of financial reward.

Right, as I said, “of similar skill level.” I’m not a fan of the inequities of the modern economy, but there is some point to it. If policemen or firefighters were capable of being successful stock brokers then they’d likely do it, but they can’t because they don’t have the sense of the economy that actual stock brokers do. But being a policeman or fireman tends to pay better than many other jobs that they would be capable of with the required level of education and capability. Stock brokering is the more profitable of the tasks because it is the more difficult, if not the more life threatening.

not really true, most people who are firemen do it out of desire to save people, not due to having no other skill sets. Also, you believe that stock market things are harder, with no real justification.

It has nothing to do with difficulty, it has only to do with profit. Stock brokers make money because they are attached to a profitable business. Just like in GW2, the average TP player will make more than the best of the best dungeon runner. (especially now with vote kick)

Ohoni.6057:

As for more challenging content, I feel it would be a good start to go back to the discreet warning circles rather than the solid orange horribly obvious broadcasts.

Boooooo. We need more orange telegraphs, not less. There’s no skill involved in avoiding attacks that you can’t see coming because they are hidden in the mess of incoming player attacks.

No. Yes, the zerg mentality is strong, but as we’ve seen in the Crown Pavilion, there are definitely ways of preventing people from zerging up, and the community will adapt. I’ve personally been in charge of gold crown pavilions multiple times, it was really fun to do. At first it was difficult to get people to follow, but once people understood how the content should be approached, people were glad to follow the commanders advice to victory instead of zerging up.

But the Crown Pavilion is a perfect example of 7-8/10 on goals, 4/10 on execution. Yes, if you are on a gold map then the zerg splits well, but because the game does such a poor job of automatically communicating this to the players, any random PUG map is fairly well doomed.And really, all the Pavilion did was split the one zerg into six, which actually doesn’t improve much of anything.

The real benefit to the Crown Pavilion was not in splitting the zerg, but in each boss having tactics that required slightly more attention than “stand and hit 1.” I mostly specialized on Pyro over that month, which was hardly the most demanding of the bosses, but it was pretty fun timing out reflects and knowing when to deal with his Retaliation.

Dry Top splits the zerg reasonably well too, as there are a few places where Zerging is fine, some where it’s downright pointless or even counterproductive, but ultimately you need at least 6-8 distinct groups moving around the map at any given time to hit T6 (mostly very small parties though). The problem again though is a complete lack of built in organization. From your own viewpoint, it’s impossible to tell which events are working and which are not. You can only estimate based on chat with people who may or may not be working the various events. Instead, the UI should clearly display every single event that is operating in the zone, and how well each is doing, how many players are there, and how many more are needed.

The mechanics should make sure that everyone knows what they should be doing, rather than requiring players to organize the map somehow.

splitting the zerg is of huge benefit, because zergs destroy anything mattering in the fight.
because you cant see much, you get lag, and scaling makes your individual contribution to any encounter, comparitively worthless.

phys.7689:

Ohoni.6057:

As a matter of fact, playing the rl version of the AH is most profitable, while things like working on an oil platform, or in public service (police, firefighters, medics, construction …) is usually mediocre or subpar in terms of financial reward.

Right, as I said, “of similar skill level.” I’m not a fan of the inequities of the modern economy, but there is some point to it. If policemen or firefighters were capable of being successful stock brokers then they’d likely do it, but they can’t because they don’t have the sense of the economy that actual stock brokers do. But being a policeman or fireman tends to pay better than many other jobs that they would be capable of with the required level of education and capability. Stock brokering is the more profitable of the tasks because it is the more difficult, if not the more life threatening.

not really true, most people who are firemen do it out of desire to save people, not due to having no other skill sets. Also, you believe that stock market things are harder, with no real justification.

It has nothing to do with difficulty, it has only to do with profit. Stock brokers make money because they are attached to a profitable business. Just like in GW2, the average TP player will make more than the best of the best dungeon runner. (especially now with vote kick)

I’m with phys.

There is no inherent connection between superior ability and working in the stock market. Brokers have computer tools that help them analyze stock behavior. Mostly what they are is salesmen. Fire fighters need to be able to carry weight (basic PPE gear alone weighs ~45 pounds, then there are tools) into burning buildings (often, up stairs or ladders) where visibility is poor and perform tasks involving high amounts of physical effort and memory (following procedures).

The real issue is not that fire-fighting is less difficult, it’s that brokers are manipulating money and get paid by getting a piece of every transaction. People accept this because they believe they will also profit. Fire fighters are generally paid by taxes, which nearly everyone wants to reduce. Fire fighters save lives, but people in general think, “My building won’t catch on fire.”

In GW2, TP traders can make a lot of money. This does take some mental effort. However, in GW2 there’s nothing that matches the mental requirements of fire fighting, never mind the physical ones.

So a quick conclusion of this thread would be something like:

GW2 has challenging content, however there are plenty of ways to cheese the fights to make them laughably easy, therefore GW2 has no real challenging content.

We want challenging content, but we will do anything in our power to find a way to make the challenging content as easy as possible through cheese mechanics, since Anet’s design makes it possible to do so. We need someone to save us from ourselves.

IndigoSundown.5419:

In GW2, TP traders can make a lot of money. This does take some mental effort. However, in GW2 there’s nothing that matches the mental requirements of fire fighting, never mind the physical ones.

In the end what people think that makes them soooo skilled here are simply the
skills of a good secretary .. fast typing and fast mouse clicking.

I never learned typing .. still type with 4 fingers and have to look onto the keyboard
all the time .. and thats why i’m a bad gamer .. even if i’m maybe better than all
these leet player in chess .. because for that you don’t need typing skills, just your
brain.

But most people dont ask for SUPER ULTIMATE HARDCORE CONTENT , but just for content where you have to use your brain .
It is sorry to say but I do my everyday dung run in window mode screen , watching some movie and eating dinner in the same time and it is not a joke . I can run entire dung using mouse cause all you need is standing in the corner and spam your skills then auto-run to another corner . And people tell me “man you are good guard gg,” or "smooth runs ty "
Same with living stories , I play those chapters eating dinner and drinking beer.Very often when I finish eating I turn on TV behind my back becasue LS is such a borring crap that I would fall asleep.
I dont remember when I wiped or died in PVE . It is really sad that you have to commit huge mistake to fail in this game .
I already mentioned that Iam leveling with my friend (now even 2 ) and we were doing ac p123 with all welcome party , still smooth run and nobody even got downed . Rly party with 3 levels 40 , 1 level 70 and 1 level80 did dungeon without any problem ?! Something must be really wrong with this game .
Hard content doesnt mean time consuming , just look at liadri . You can go(now cant) and kill her in less then 3 min . You can kill her without armor , using only offhand weapon but how much time it requires to master it ? here is the key to awesome content .
Anet should make LS content with story option where you are immortal and 1shot everything and then exp one with achies where bosses are on liadri level . And everyone is happy in case of LS .Then they only fix mob AI and we have perfect game .

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

But most people dont ask for SUPER ULTIMATE HARDCORE CONTENT , but just for content where you have to use your brain .

Actually no, most people ask for hard content that doesn’t require any brains – just muscle memory and high reflexes. Frankly, any content that would require actual thinking would exclude 90% of even hardcore crowd.

Astralporing.1957:

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

But most people dont ask for SUPER ULTIMATE HARDCORE CONTENT , but just for content where you have to use your brain .

Actually no, most people ask for hard content that doesn’t require any brains – just muscle memory and high reflexes. Frankly, any content that would require actual thinking would exclude 90% of even hardcore crowd.

Yepp .. i suspect many of them aren’t even interested in RPG games .. its just another
kind of shooter for them.

Personally before the time of online games i always prefered good turn-based combat
like Wizardy, Might & Magic or the DSA Games .. and heck if you wanted a real
challenge try to beat 2 Beasts of 1000 Eyes or 2 Fiends of 9 Worlds ^^

And .. Haha .. there are really Youtube Videos about that .. lol

i am looking for a game with hard core open world pvp wvw

or at least hard core wvw and pvp ……
i am not a pve player … thats lame ! XD

maybe with a ninja/stealth class any recommendations XD

Astralporing.1957:

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

But most people dont ask for SUPER ULTIMATE HARDCORE CONTENT , but just for content where you have to use your brain .

Actually no, most people ask for hard content that doesn’t require any brains – just muscle memory and high reflexes. Frankly, any content that would require actual thinking would exclude 90% of even hardcore crowd.

muscle memory and reflexes are skills, just as quick thinking and even slow thinking. In the entirety of an MMO world, you should be able to develop many different types of challenges.
so yeah, i want some muscle memory and reflexes, i also want some tactics and strategy, there are even facets of the game that could work with more slow thinking type scenarios.

Bring it on, i like a challenge

Ohoni.6057:

What difference does it make? I’d kinda prefer raids to any of that other stuff, but ideally I’d just like more stuff like Dry Top, only with a more relaxed meta.

And Jormag is just about perfect the way he is. Shatterer could be tweaked a bit, but hopefully not like Teq was. Ideally they would tweak both Wurm and Teq down a bit so that they scale better to the size and composition of the players on the map, rather than some intended “capped map” standard.

:S you ask me what difference it makes and then you talk about what content you prefer… So obviously it makes a difference for people in what way harder content is presented.

As I’ve stated before, I really don’t care about world bosses or easy open world content like dry top. It was merely a more realistic example of possible harder content. Raids are basically dungeons for larger groups with bosses that actually have mechanics. If anet is of the opinion that TA aetherblade was too much work, I highly doubt they’re gonna be working on raids any time soon.

As far as nerfing teq and tri-wurm is concerned, I really don’t see the need. Maps will still be capped and it’ll be just more and more easy.

Draknar.5748:

So a quick conclusion of this thread would be something like:

GW2 has challenging content, however there are plenty of ways to cheese the fights to make them laughably easy, therefore GW2 has no real challenging content.

We want challenging content, but we will do anything in our power to find a way to make the challenging content as easy as possible through cheese mechanics, since Anet’s design makes it possible to do so. We need someone to save us from ourselves.

Not even close, the hardcore crowd hardly ever cheeses fights anyway. You won’t find them standing in the safespot ranging a boss down.

cranos.5913:

Not even close, the hardcore crowd hardly ever cheeses fights anyway.

It’s the hardcores, not the casuals, that do the whole “stack and burn dungeon bosses while afk and drinking coffee” routines. Just saying…
One part of being hardcore is always looking for the most efficient ways to finish encounters, after all – if you don’t cheese, you are not trying enough.

phys.7689:

Ohoni.6057:

As a matter of fact, playing the rl version of the AH is most profitable, while things like working on an oil platform, or in public service (police, firefighters, medics, construction …) is usually mediocre or subpar in terms of financial reward.

Right, as I said, “of similar skill level.” I’m not a fan of the inequities of the modern economy, but there is some point to it. If policemen or firefighters were capable of being successful stock brokers then they’d likely do it, but they can’t because they don’t have the sense of the economy that actual stock brokers do. But being a policeman or fireman tends to pay better than many other jobs that they would be capable of with the required level of education and capability. Stock brokering is the more profitable of the tasks because it is the more difficult, if not the more life threatening.

not really true, most people who are firemen do it out of desire to save people, not due to having no other skill sets. Also, you believe that stock market things are harder, with no real justification.

It has nothing to do with difficulty, it has only to do with profit. Stock brokers make money because they are attached to a profitable business. Just like in GW2, the average TP player will make more than the best of the best dungeon runner. (especially now with vote kick)

And let’s not forget how playing the stock market, and similar such financial activities, bring absolutely no added value to the table in terms of public good, and can even have extremely harmful consequences.

Well, I do love challenge in games, yes. I thought some of the recent LS achievements were good, and the Queen’s Gauntlet will always be one of the highlights of my time playing GW2. I fought Liadri a lot of times and then some. It felt like a great achievement just beating these, it wasn’t even about the reward for me.

However, some dungeons just turned me off. Sometimes because of the attitudes people would have about them (IE, I don’t run Arah simply because I don’t like elitist attitudes I generally encounter with pug groups). Pinging gear and kitten like that is unnecessary at best. A year or so ago I was running TA like a madwoman and I never had a problem taking new players to the dungeon with me and teaching them how to do it, including those lower than level 80. I may have even taken the time to better learn Arah if some players would have been more willing to teach it or have patience but most don’t. I did eventually learn it vaguely from some guildmates but have had no desire to really go back since. Got my Gift of Zhaitan out of the way and never looked back. And if I’d known Track Rewards would be coming eventually I would’ve just pvp’d my way to it, as I find that a far more fun and engaging way to get those same rewards to be honest.

My problem doesn’t really lie with content but more the attitudes that follow when harder content is present. People tend to show up with elitist attitudes that frankly turns me off to the game. This was much the case in my last few MMOs as well and I’m glad I left them behind. I don’t think GW2’s more casual approach is necessarily bad if it means a more pleasant experience.

As for rewards for harder content, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I don’t think it should mean more powerful gear, but something cosmetic or title related would be fine. I remember the uproar when Fractals was first introduced, many people weren’t happy that it was the only way to get Ascended rings at the time. Eventually ANet added the lorels route which may have taken longer but made it possible for everyone to get them without running a dungeon they may not have particularly cared for. Plus I think you can get some ascended stuff with other means like Guild Commendations and that sort of thing.

But anyway… I guess I will just say in short that, harder content would be welcome for those who want it and I’m all for that. But I still feel that those rewards should also be possible for those who maybe don’t mind taking longer getting them. Much like Legendaries I suppose. I’m working on my first (after avoiding it for a couple years). Has taken me a long time so far but I’m getting there, even if much slowly than those who play the TP or farm non-stop. I do the things I like to do and I get the things I need in time. I even like doing the Cursed Shore farm simply because it keeps me moving and there is still some active play involved for the most part (at least for things like Grenth temple etc).

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Romek.4201:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Your type of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industry has. Because you think there are enough people that can spent so many hours a week playing games, and getting good at them, when in fact, most people can’t. And many people who do pay very high prices.

It’s a game. It’s not a job. It’s a bit of entertainment. Those who see games as more than they are are probably worse for the industry, because their actions often chase people away from games. The hard core people who chase people away are probably the reason hard core is dying.

Hard core players are their own worst enemy.

I don’t see world’s top football/basketball/tennis players turning anyone off playing said sports, so……
Nor can I imagine top esport players turning people off from playing esportz………..
Also, you cannot back up your claims statistically on how many can and cannot commit, and how many just don’t feel like it, nor how many might simply not want to for reasons that are game-related.

Vayne.8563:

Romek.4201:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Your type of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industry has. Because you think there are enough people that can spent so many hours a week playing games, and getting good at them, when in fact, most people can’t. And many people who do pay very high prices.

It’s a game. It’s not a job. It’s a bit of entertainment. Those who see games as more than they are are probably worse for the industry, because their actions often chase people away from games. The hard core people who chase people away are probably the reason hard core is dying.

Hard core players are their own worst enemy.

Actually games which bring the biggest profits are easy-to-pick-up but hard-to-master . Just look at LOL,COD,BF,Halo and other games like that . Every casual can turn on this game and have much fun but hardcore players can master these games to perfection and kill everything on their way .
Problem in gw is that we dont have any challenge for more hardcore crowd . There should be 2 living story option , story mode = easy brainless spamming 11111, and explorer mode with bosses like liadri . And casual cant say “i cant finish it nerf it pls !” but the only one problem is that hardcore players want better rewards and casual want to obtain every reward by doing world bosses or cof p1 .
But anyway just look at destiny . Leveling,story mode proces is casual friendly but end game is for true veterans(first raid was finished in 10 hours , now people finish it under 2h) and people play this game and cant stop .

Vayne.8563:

Romek.4201:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Your type of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industry has. Because you think there are enough people that can spent so many hours a week playing games, and getting good at them, when in fact, most people can’t. And many people who do pay very high prices.

It’s a game. It’s not a job. It’s a bit of entertainment. Those who see games as more than they are are probably worse for the industry, because their actions often chase people away from games. The hard core people who chase people away are probably the reason hard core is dying.

Hard core players are their own worst enemy.

So let’s ignore esports and what it’s done for game popularity.
Let’s ignore that those “hardcore” players are what’s driving millions of dollars in the gaming industry.

Hard core isn’t dying – the only reason it appears to be dying is because there’s always going to be a set finite number of hardcore gamers. People who have the time, patience, skill and dedication to become top notch.

The reason it appears to be “dying” is because more and more casuals are flooding the industry. In turn games are made simpler and easier and even more casuals flood in.
If you look at a game’s population 10 years ago there were many more hardcore players – why? because that was who mostly played games.

Today ? The hardcore numbers might be the same but there are now just as many if not more casual players in that game.

Casuals are a hardcore player’s worst enemy. Why?

Because:

1) By just existing they’re making games less fun to play for the hardcore crowd. The recent “simplification” many games have gone through in the last 5-10 years is because of this infusion of casuals.

2) They make bad teammates – why ? Because they don’t have the time, desire or dedication to be hardcore ( maybe even the skill). So as a hardcore player there’s less and less people to choose from out of the total player base.

3) Casuals are entitled – usually because of the way they’re made up psychologically people like this feel entitled to this or that just because they bought the game.
More hardcore players aren’t really like this – and most realize that you have to earn your prestige, rewards and whatnot.
That’s not the casual though – “I bought this game – I should be able to get X item”.

And if you think just hardcore gamers are what chase people away from games – I’ve got news for you.

I’ve had numerous encounters in various games with people so “casual” and “lol man it’s just a game” that it made me want to put the game down and never pick it up again lest I be confronted with one of their kind again.

Also – I feel you think you know how " a game " should be played – but each person makes his own fun his own way.
What might not be fun for you might be fun for others. Maybe playing the game “like a job” is what some people enjoy.

The bottom line is this :

Not everything is for everybody – and if you can’t make the time to play the game long enough or good enough to get the reward then you shouldn’t get them.
Or – if the developers want money – you should be made to pay high amounts of real world currency to get them.

/threadwin