Trahearne voice actor (possible spoilers)

Trahearne voice actor (possible spoilers)

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

I created a new character only two weeks ago and am currently playing through the original campaign again. And like all the times before, I still can’t get over the fact what an insufficient job the actor voicing Trahearne did.

I mean, he is a core character in GW2, even the most important one in the original campaign. So how come they couldn’t find a different actor or tell this guy to try express emotions? It’s the worst professional voice acting I have heard ever.

Trahearne was supposed to be an inspiring figure, motivating his troups and being looked upon as the hero he never wanted to be. Instead he is sounding like an unemotional robot, plain boring. So boring in fact that I didn’t even care much when he died.

I just checked the Wiki entry, and the actor also voiced several Asuran NPCs in the game. I can’t remember any Asuran NPC sounding like that, though (i.e., emotionless and boring).

What are your toughts on this? Do you agree or disagree, and if the latter then how come?

(edited by Ashantara.8731)

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

I’m not sure he was meant to be an inspiring person, exactly. He was a scholar who knew a lot about Zhaitan and he was chosen for his knowledge, not his ability to inspire. Basically, they choose an administrative person for a leadership role over troops.

My personal feelings is they should have chosen one of the mentors to lead and had Traehearn as an adviser and companion to you.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: Malice.8439

Malice.8439

I mean, have you heard Zojja?

The V/A in the personal story has been cringe-worthy and terrible from the get-go. The Living Story has improved upon this dramatically over the years.

All warfare is based on deception.
- Sun Tzu, Art of War

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

I’m not sure he was meant to be an inspiring person, exactly. He was a scholar who knew a lot about Zhaitan and he was chosen for his knowledge, not his ability to inspire.

I believe you are wrong. The story mission where the Mother Tree sends you and him into a vision of the future shows clearly that he is supposed to become an inspiring leader. His speeches, once he becomes Pact Leader, are indeed inspiring, only not supported by the voice acting (i.e., inspirational speeches pronounced by a sleeping pill). Many of the dialogues also prove this.

Basically, they choose an administrative person for a leadership role over troops.

My personal feelings is they should have chosen one of the mentors to lead and had Traehearn as an adviser and companion to you.

But still, no one talks like that, at least not where professional voice acting is involved. Trahearne’s voice actor did no intonation at all, and even in scenes where the character was clearly addressing the troops, motivating them for the upcoming battle, the volume and lack of intonation made it sound like he was reading the phone book.

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

I mean, have you heard Zojja?

Yes, I can’t stand Zojja for that very reason (annoying voice) but also for the content of her speeches. At least, one can not say that Felicia Day’s performance was lacking intonation — in that regard, she did a great job IMO.

The V/A in the personal story has been cringe-worthy and terrible from the get-go. The Living Story has improved upon this dramatically over the years.

I wouldn’t say that in general. For instance, I loved the job the voice actor of the human male character did.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

I just checked the Wiki entry, and the actor also voiced several Asuran NPCs in the game. I can’t remember any Asuran NPC sounding like that, though (i.e., emotionless and boring).

Hahahahahahahahaaaa… hahahahaba…

That was a funny joke. Asurans not being emotionless and boring… lol.

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

That was a funny joke. Asurans not being emotionless and boring… lol.

You are aware of the fact that being patronizing, lecturing, or snappish are emotions as well? You show those by articulating yourself in a certain manner with lots of intonation.

A person (Asura) behaving in any of these ways does not use an unemotional, monotonous (that’s what I meant by “boring”) voice.

P.S. You seem to have trouble understanding that this thread is merely about voice acting.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

It’s the worst professional voice acting I have heard ever.

Betty from the Accounting Department would like to say hi.
. . As a Norn female.

Granted, I’m not fond of Treehernia’s voice work either, but I suppose he was meant to be dry. I don’t blame the VA for that, but probably the voice direction. Whatever the cause, I never found myself inspired by what he said, as there was no oomph in it.

“Death good!” I mean, I’d follow that. At least the Risen were more enthusiastic about their cause. …Yes, dead people were more enthusiastic than Treesus.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

I’m not sure he was meant to be an inspiring person, exactly. He was a scholar who knew a lot about Zhaitan and he was chosen for his knowledge, not his ability to inspire.

I believe you are wrong. The story mission where the Mother Tree sends you and him into a vision of the future shows clearly that he is supposed to become an inspiring leader. His speeches, once he becomes Pact Leader, are indeed inspiring, only not supported by the voice acting (i.e., inspirational speeches pronounced by a sleeping pill). Many of the dialogues also prove this.

Basically, they choose an administrative person for a leadership role over troops.

My personal feelings is they should have chosen one of the mentors to lead and had Traehearn as an adviser and companion to you.

But still, no one talks like that, at least not where professional voice acting is involved. Trahearne’s voice actor did no intonation at all, and even in scenes where the character was clearly addressing the troops, motivating them for the upcoming battle, the volume and lack of intonation made it sound like he was reading the phone book.

I always assumed it was intentional. After all this is a seasoned voice actor, not Fred from accounting pulled in to do the job cheap. I felt that maybe he (Trahearne) was supposed to be and attempted to be inspiring however his scholarly, dispassionate nature kept him from being so. That the actor was trying to be a scholar who was elected to a leadership role and was trying to show this with his voice.

The failure in this case would be, imo, in the failure of the character to audibly become less scholarly and more inspiring as time went by. The people who directed the PS voicing should have caught this no doubt, but I gather that the end was rushed and maybe it was overlooked.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

It’s the worst professional voice acting I have heard ever.

Betty from the Accounting Department would like to say hi.
. . As a Norn female.

LOL! You got me there.

Granted, I’m not fond of Treehernia’s voice work either, but I suppose he was meant to be dry. I don’t blame the VA for that, but probably the voice direction. Whatever the cause, I never found myself inspired by what he said, as there was no oomph in it.

“Death good!” I mean, I’d follow that. At least the Risen were more enthusiastic about their cause. …Yes, dead people were more enthusiastic than Treesus.

This, exactly.

But you and Just a flesh wound are probably right: If somebody is to blame, it is the voice director. I forgot that those existed too in computer game dubbing.

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Posted by: ofthesamvariety.7801

ofthesamvariety.7801

Pretty sure one of the asura he voices is the one by the mystic forge who says “Zommoros must have an impressive kitten nal by now. I saw one asura in particular throw in over two dozen exotic weapons.” or something like that. Also, the asura in Camp Resolve who’s teaching some charr how to diffuse bombs.

Personally I never had an issue with Trahearne’s VA, and I think it’s because I’m British. I think Brits in general have less variation in the tone of their voice (and are much more sarcastic) than other nationalities, and IIRC Trahearne’s VA is actually British (unlike all the other sylvari VAs…) I’ve also seen a lot of people hate on how he pronounces Claw Island, and that’s literally how I say it, so it could just be a British-American thing.

Edit: kitten nal? really? it’s supposed to be a large weapon storage that sounds like arson-al…

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Actually, Matthew Brenher voices several post-HoT characters, including the one by LA’s Mystic Forge, some in various Pact camps, and so on. He was brought back for HoT and agreed to re-record some of his lines from the personal story, including his battle lines.

I think the result is a much improved Treahearne. Instead of sounding like a whining Eyore (“this won’t end well” and “moving on”), he sounds like a librarian reluctantly fulfilling his destiny as a leader in the epic fight against an elder dragon trying to destroy the world as we know it.

Voice acting is, in my opinion, a lot more difficult than stage or film — you rarely get any sort of useful ‘feedback’, since you have neither an audience nor any other actors around (at least, not for video games). Everything you do lacks the full context — you don’t actually get to play the game, since it’s still being coded when you come to the studio.

In other words, it’s incredibly easy to do a bad job and really difficult to do a good (never mind, great) job.

That doesn’t excuse what I consider to be “phoned in” performances — some of the actors seem extremely sedate when confronted with end-of-the-world situations and bored when making life|death decisions and that’s definitely bad for our experience as a player.

On the other hand, there’s no performance that’s so bad that everyone hates it and none so good that everyone loves it.

I think Debi Derryberry nails Taimi’s personality, but some people find it cringe-worthy (and she’s uninspiring as Belinda Delaqua). For reasons I can’t fathom, there are people inspired by Claudia Christian’s performance as the female Norn PC.

Some people love the female Sylvari NPC, but think Queen Jennah is meh (or vice versa), despite those being voiced by the same actor.

In short,… well there’s no short about it. We all have very personal views about the voice acting. It’s generally a good sign when the acting generates strong feelings, even if those aren’t necessarily what the story tellers or actors were intending.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

Trahearne was supposed to be an inspiring figure, motivating his troups and being looked upon as the hero he never wanted to be.

https://youtu.be/FopyRHHlt3M

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

Actually, Matthew Brenher voices several post-HoT characters, including the one by LA’s Mystic Forge, some in various Pact camps, and so on. He was brought back for HoT and agreed to re-record some of his lines from the personal story, including his battle lines.

I think the result is a much improved Treahearne. Instead of sounding like a whining Eyore (“this won’t end well” and “moving on”), he sounds like a librarian reluctantly fulfilling his destiny as a leader in the epic fight against an elder dragon trying to destroy the world as we know it.

So, pronouncing “TO ARMS!”, an obvious battle cry usually shouted to the troops, like you just got out of bed and are about to yawn, is considered “improvement”?

Voice acting is, in my opinion, a lot more difficult than stage or film — you rarely get any sort of useful ‘feedback’, since you have neither an audience nor any other actors around (at least, not for video games). Everything you do lacks the full context

I do get that and know that the work is being done out of context. In the late 1990s I attended a tv show’s fan club convention that invited the two female German voices of the two lead characters. They told us the exact same thing after the fans had noticed that these actors had no clue at all about the actual storylines and thus couldn’t give their personal opinion on anything.

And while I agree that most things are a question of taste, I doubt that bad voice acting is one of them. You can like or dislike a voice per se (like in your example of the female Norn PC), but you cannot really argue about an obvious lack of intonation. Intonation is either there or it is not. What you can argue about is the way that fact is being perceived. And to me it doesn’t sound like a librarian stepping out into the big bad world, it sounds like someone is reading a phone book, providing the character with zero personality whatsoever.

Trahearne was supposed to be an inspiring figure, motivating his troups and being looked upon as the hero he never wanted to be.

https://youtu.be/FopyRHHlt3M

Exactly. The reason for making this statement appear as a bad joke was the lame voice acting.
.

P.S. @ “emotionless” Asura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6J55-Nh790&t=906s

(edited by Ashantara.8731)

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

I’ve never found Trahearne’s voice boring. To me it’s been more the vibe of the understated Brit trope. Perhaps it’s because I grew up with a brilliant, rational father. Dad thought his way through things. He was an academic (linguistics) who seldom lost his temper and provided an example of healthy control of emotions. So the cerebral, reasoned approach resonates with me.

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Posted by: Ariurotl.3718

Ariurotl.3718

You can’t be serious. Trahearne’s voice acting is superb, it does a great job at portraying just what sort of person he is. Half of the VA work in THIS GAME is much worse.

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Posted by: Chadramar.8156

Chadramar.8156

I like Trahearne, and I want quieter, introverted characters, but he did always come across as a bit flat and “not really there”, because he sounds much the same in a relaxed chat among Momma Tree’s branches as he does out there among a million Risen. You don’t have to be a screaming extrovert to express a bit more urgency in the latter situation. :p

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Posted by: Chadramar.8156

Chadramar.8156

I like Trahearne, and I want quieter, introverted characters, but he did always come across as a bit flat and “not really there”, because he sounds much the same in a relaxed chat among Momma Tree’s branches as he does out there among a million Risen. You don’t have to be a screaming extrovert to express a bit more urgency in the latter situation. :p

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

And while I agree that most things are a question of taste, I doubt that bad voice acting is one of them. You can like or dislike a voice per se (like in your example of the female Norn PC), but you cannot really argue about an obvious lack of intonation. Intonation is either there or it is not.

You’d think that would be true: it sounds reasonable, it passes the usual ‘smell’ tastes for quality, and it seems possible if not likely that there’s some standard by which to measure acting.

But in reality, it’s not true. Fans like what they like. I think the Norn female PC voice lacks any affect at all — there’s no emotion at all (to my hearing) and yet I’ve seen people post in these very forums that they really like her. (And don’t get me started on Law & Order: SVU, the longest running member of that franchise — I think the actors can shout or drone on & on, just two dimensions, but the fans love them year in & year out.)

Acting connects to people at a visceral and emotional level and there’s simply no way to reduce that to a well-defined standard of measurement where there’s universal agreement about what’s bad, what’s good, what’s effective, what’s off-putting.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

My gripe wasn’t just with the voice acting but what was said and when. For example, my char and Trahearne are in Orr and we fight off a bunch of Risen. Then immediately after the fight he makes a comment in his monotone voice about some building. I’m standing there thinking, we are sneaking in to Orr and were attacked by a bunch of risen and had to fight for our lives, and you pick now to tell me the fine points about local architecture?

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

Actually, Matthew Brenher voices several post-HoT characters, including the one by LA’s Mystic Forge, some in various Pact camps, and so on. He was brought back for HoT and agreed to re-record some of his lines from the personal story, including his battle lines.

I think the result is a much improved Treahearne. Instead of sounding like a whining Eyore (“this won’t end well” and “moving on”), he sounds like a librarian reluctantly fulfilling his destiny as a leader in the epic fight against an elder dragon trying to destroy the world as we know it.

So, pronouncing “TO ARMS!”, an obvious battle cry usually shouted to the troops, like you just got out of bed and are about to yawn, is considered “improvement”?

Voice acting is, in my opinion, a lot more difficult than stage or film — you rarely get any sort of useful ‘feedback’, since you have neither an audience nor any other actors around (at least, not for video games). Everything you do lacks the full context

I do get that and know that the work is being done out of context. In the late 1990s I attended a tv show’s fan club convention that invited the two female German voices of the two lead characters. They told us the exact same thing after the fans had noticed that these actors had no clue at all about the actual storylines and thus couldn’t give their personal opinion on anything.

And while I agree that most things are a question of taste, I doubt that bad voice acting is one of them. You can like or dislike a voice per se (like in your example of the female Norn PC), but you cannot really argue about an obvious lack of intonation. Intonation is either there or it is not. What you can argue about is the way that fact is being perceived. And to me it doesn’t sound like a librarian stepping out into the big bad world, it sounds like someone is reading a phone book, providing the character with zero personality whatsoever.

Trahearne was supposed to be an inspiring figure, motivating his troups and being looked upon as the hero he never wanted to be.

https://youtu.be/FopyRHHlt3M

Exactly. The reason for making this statement appear as a bad joke was the lame voice acting.
.

P.S. @ “emotionless” Asura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6J55-Nh790&t=906s

It has next to nothing to do with Trahearne’s voice acting and pretty much everything to do with him being straight up a terrible, unlikable and useless character all along. No amount of voice acting can fix that.

(edited by Grimheart.2853)

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

You can’t be serious. Trahearne’s voice acting is superb, it does a great job at portraying just what sort of person he is.

I can’t honestly say if geniously ironic or, politely speaking, “something else”

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

It has next to nothing to do with Trahearne’s voice acting and pretty much everything to do with him being straight up a terrible, unlikable and useless character all along. No amount of voice acting can fix that.

Not everyone agrees. I was a big critic of both the acting and the text and I was pleasantly surprised that I started to like Trahearne after the update. I’m still not a big fan — I just think the updated recordings fixed most of what I hated.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

I’ve never found Trahearne’s voice boring. To me it’s been more the vibe of the understated Brit trope. Perhaps it’s because I grew up with a brilliant, rational father. Dad thought his way through things. He was an academic (linguistics) who seldom lost his temper and provided an example of healthy control of emotions. So the cerebral, reasoned approach resonates with me.

I doubt your dad sounded like a lifeless puppet (rather like an interesting man, calm and balanced — also a state of mind and demeanor that is carried in one’s voice). Trahearne, however, does. There is no life in his voice whatsoever, it is just monotonous and artificial. Even “understated Brit tropes” express themselves in some human way, they certainly don’t sound like that.

(edited by Ashantara.8731)

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

idk he sounds like a scholar to me and what he was in the game… a sholar ^^

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

I don’t think it’s the voice actor’s fault. Probably a combination of direction and writing. I mean, like others have said, his character is a scholar and he sounds like one. But due to the writing, they thrust his character into a position that the character wasn’t really built for. Might have worked in a novel, inside of Trahearne’s head, but it worked weirdly for a guy who is an NPC in a video game.

The VA simply stuck with the Trahearne scholar voice, for whatever reason. Could have been direction. Could have been a creative choice on the VA’s part. Could have been he couldn’t stretch his Trahearne voice much, without it sounding like someone else. Anyone’s guess what the reason, really.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

I don’t think it’s the voice actor’s fault. Probably a combination of direction and writing.

Indeed. This matters a lot in TV, film, and stage, and even more so in voice acting — the VA has no way of knowing what the part calls for except what’s written in their ‘sides’ and whatever background the director provides.


Some VAs are amazing talents and can do all sorts of stuff, which sometimes mean different accents, but often means making a strong and sometimes risky choice and waiting to be told to reign it in (or not).

Listen to the interplay between Mad King Thorn & Bloody Prince Thorn in the Labyrinth and imagine trying to do that without the other actor present. Sometimes the actor will make a strong choice and many people will love it while others will have kittens trying to block it out of their memory — that’s how it is for some of us with Taimi, with Scarlet, and especially with Zojja (Felicia Day has an interesting form of vocal fry, which is off-putting to a lot of people, regardless of what she says or does).

Matthew Brenher isn’t my favorite voice actor in the game — far from it. All the same, I think he did a brave thing to come back and re-record lines and risk making strong-but-different choices the second time around. (I mean, I’m sure he got paid for his efforts, too.)

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Orion Templar.4589

Orion Templar.4589

I think the voice acting was quite good. I think the Trahearne character was supposed to come off that way; a bit reserved, understated, not an in-your-face personality. A great actor (or voice actor) is one who correctly portrays the character, which in this case I think was successfully done.

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Posted by: Ariurotl.3718

Ariurotl.3718

You can’t be serious. Trahearne’s voice acting is superb, it does a great job at portraying just what sort of person he is.

I can’t honestly say if geniously ironic or, politely speaking, “something else”

Not sure what “geniously” is supposed to mean, but I am serious. The voice acting for Trahearne meets the two main criteria (at least, for me):

1. It sounds natural and doesn’t break immersion, i.e. you don’t imagine an actor reading a line, but believe it’s a character saying these words.
2. It fits the character’s personality.

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Posted by: Emiko.3217

Emiko.3217

I think he would make a good narrator.

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Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

I hope people are aware that if his voice acting is “boring” it’s because someone in ArenaNet directed him to be “boring”. Or at least was OK with him being “boring”. Just saying that criticising the actor for this might be a bit unfair (the same way that criticising him for what the character says would be unfair as he didn’t write the dialog).

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

That was a funny joke. Asurans not being emotionless and boring… lol.

You are aware of the fact that being patronizing, lecturing, or snappish are emotions as well? You show those by articulating yourself in a certain manner with lots of intonation.

A person (Asura) behaving in any of these ways does not use an unemotional, monotonous (that’s what I meant by “boring”) voice.

P.S. You seem to have trouble understanding that this thread is merely about voice acting.

Then you clearly havent heard the Asurans voiced by the same actor as Trahearne.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

I think it is more of the matter of what role Trahearne was put into. He had a character that served more as a advisor with the Pact Leader Role could have gone to a more motivated personality leader and they could not put the Player character as the leader of the Pact because it would cause a Lore Issue where the Player Character is ignoring his or her duty as Pact Leader just to go off adventuring during the time gaps between each storyline.

Though MMO like Star Wars the Old Republic address the Player as Leader of the a Large Organization quite well being that the Alliance is being run by multiple leaders and advisors in specific areas so the Player character can go off on their own tasks leaving them only needed to perform major choices on who to side with and which important people to recuit.

(edited by EdwinLi.1284)

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

snip

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir. People liked then too, doesn’t make them good characters. He was, shoehorned, half- kitten d, partially marry sue and generaly useless. He wasn’t a real hero, he wasn’t a well written character, he wasn’t truly important and he didn’t deserve any credit he recieved. It’ not about thay ‘your’ protagonist isn’t ‘the protagonist of the story’, it’s about this whole thing being objectively poorly made.

There’s plenty of memes and ironic references to this guy and his “spiritual bretheren”, and they in no way deal with the egocentric tendencies of those parts of the community either.

(edited by Grimheart.2853)

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Posted by: Eurhetemec.9052

Eurhetemec.9052

I’m not sure he was meant to be an inspiring person, exactly. He was a scholar who knew a lot about Zhaitan and he was chosen for his knowledge, not his ability to inspire. Basically, they choose an administrative person for a leadership role over troops.

I’ve heard this argument before, and it’s ruined by the fact that the OTHER NPCs absolutely do act as if he is this terribly inspiring and exciting and dynamic person, when he is nothing of the sort. And anyway, he shouldn’t have been. GW2 becoming “The Tale of Trahearne” was a bum move. Luckily it ended with the personal story.

My personal feelings is they should have chosen one of the mentors to lead and had Traehearn as an adviser and companion to you.

That would have worked out rather better.

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Posted by: Eurhetemec.9052

Eurhetemec.9052

snip

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir. People liked then too, doesn’t make them good characters. He was, shoehorned, half- kitten d, partially marry sue and generaly useless. He wasn’t a real hero, he wasn’t a well written character, he wasn’t truly important and he didn’t deserve any credit he recieved. It’ not about thay ‘your’ protagonist isn’t ‘the protagonist of the story’, it’s about this whole thing being objectively poorly made.

There’s plenty of memes and ironic references to this guy and his “spiritual bretheren”, and they in no way deal with the egocentric tendencies of those parts of the community either.

It is subjective.

You shouting the word “objective” over and over will not turn your subjective opinions into objective fact. That will never happen. Your criticisms are largely subjective. Doesn’t mean they’re invalid, at all, but they are, fundamentally, subjective. Maybe this is a language barrier thing? I don’t know what your primary language is but your spelling and grammar errors are consistent enough to suggest it’s not English (probably Northern or Eastern European?), and maybe in your primary language objective and subjective translate to something that is NOT the same as what they mean in English, where they are very certain terms.

I actually agree with a lot of them, but I have enough sense to know I’m being subjective here too.

Also, Kormir, what the kitten dude? Kormir was the same trope done extremely well. She was a very good character, interesting, fun, and didn’t hog the limelight or make the player feel unnecessary or second-rate. I liked Kormir every bit as much as I disliked Trahearne.

As a dungeon master for pen and paper RPGs, I had to learn how to run NPCs so they didn’t make the PCs seem worthless, but still make some NPCs plot-important (the PCs can’t be every king, queen, high priest, martyr, revolutionary or whatever), and Kormir is an example of how to do that decently. Trahearne is an example of how to kitten it up horribly on multiple levels.

Scarlet was a character with problems, I agree, but they’re different problems, because she was an adversary. She is thus incapable of being a “Mary Sue” or the like. She is also not a Villain Sue as we never really see stuff from her perspective. In fact, trope wise, her problem is not the same at all – she is in fact more of a Generic Doomsday Villain – http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir.

It’s an opinion, regardless of how sure you are that your point of view is shared by the masses. There’s widespread differences of opinion about Trahearne, Scarlet, and even Kormir.

You do damage to your own points of view by trying to insist otherwise.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

The voice acting for Trahearne meets the two main criteria (at least, for me):

1. It sounds natural and doesn’t break immersion, i.e. you don’t imagine an actor reading a line, but believe it’s a character saying these words.

2. It fits the character’s personality.

1. Interesting perception. My main complaint is that it does not sound the least bit “natural”.

2. So the character is a lifeless puppet? My bad, I thought he was a Sylvari scholar who was commanding the troops.

I don’t think it’s the voice actor’s fault. Probably a combination of direction and writing.

Agreed, and it doesn’t really matter who is to blame. The results are still the same.

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

I don’t think it’s the voice actor’s fault. Probably a combination of direction and writing.

Indeed. This matters a lot in TV, film, and stage, and even more so in voice acting — the VA has no way of knowing what the part calls for except what’s written in their ‘sides’ and whatever background the director provides.


Some VAs are amazing talents and can do all sorts of stuff, which sometimes mean different accents, but often means making a strong and sometimes risky choice and waiting to be told to reign it in (or not).

Listen to the interplay between Mad King Thorn & Bloody Prince Thorn in the Labyrinth and imagine trying to do that without the other actor present. Sometimes the actor will make a strong choice and many people will love it while others will have kittens trying to block it out of their memory — that’s how it is for some of us with Taimi, with Scarlet, and especially with Zojja (Felicia Day has an interesting form of vocal fry, which is off-putting to a lot of people, regardless of what she says or does).

Matthew Brenher isn’t my favorite voice actor in the game — far from it. All the same, I think he did a brave thing to come back and re-record lines and risk making strong-but-different choices the second time around. (I mean, I’m sure he got paid for his efforts, too.)

Yeah. I’ve heard with some VA roles, they don’t even know who they’re reading for. Like not even a character name. I recall there was some guy who did a character in Fallout 4 who talked about this happening to him with Fallout 4.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir.

It’s an opinion, regardless of how sure you are that your point of view is shared by the masses. There’s widespread differences of opinion about Trahearne, Scarlet, and even Kormir.

You do damage to your own points of view by trying to insist otherwise.

I’ve no idea how to explain to you, that if a chef in a restoraunt serves you a literal pile of fecal matter on a plate when you asked for a steak, it doesn’t matter if you like it because you’re into that sort if stuff, it’s still a pile of fecal matter on a plate. Seems pointless to me to go on anymore.

(edited by Grimheart.2853)

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

snip

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir. People liked then too, doesn’t make them good characters. He was, shoehorned, half- kitten d, partially marry sue and generaly useless. He wasn’t a real hero, he wasn’t a well written character, he wasn’t truly important and he didn’t deserve any credit he recieved. It’ not about thay ‘your’ protagonist isn’t ‘the protagonist of the story’, it’s about this whole thing being objectively poorly made.

There’s plenty of memes and ironic references to this guy and his “spiritual bretheren”, and they in no way deal with the egocentric tendencies of those parts of the community either.

It is subjective.

You shouting the word “objective” over and over will not turn your subjective opinions into objective fact. That will never happen. Your criticisms are largely subjective. Doesn’t mean they’re invalid, at all, but they are, fundamentally, subjective. Maybe this is a language barrier thing? I don’t know what your primary language is but your spelling and grammar errors are consistent enough to suggest it’s not English (probably Northern or Eastern European?), and maybe in your primary language objective and subjective translate to something that is NOT the same as what they mean in English, where they are very certain terms.

I actually agree with a lot of them, but I have enough sense to know I’m being subjective here too.

Also, Kormir, what the kitten dude? Kormir was the same trope done extremely well. She was a very good character, interesting, fun, and didn’t hog the limelight or make the player feel unnecessary or second-rate. I liked Kormir every bit as much as I disliked Trahearne.

As a dungeon master for pen and paper RPGs, I had to learn how to run NPCs so they didn’t make the PCs seem worthless, but still make some NPCs plot-important (the PCs can’t be every king, queen, high priest, martyr, revolutionary or whatever), and Kormir is an example of how to do that decently. Trahearne is an example of how to kitten it up horribly on multiple levels.

Scarlet was a character with problems, I agree, but they’re different problems, because she was an adversary. She is thus incapable of being a “Mary Sue” or the like. She is also not a Villain Sue as we never really see stuff from her perspective. In fact, trope wise, her problem is not the same at all – she is in fact more of a Generic Doomsday Villain – http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain

Subjective opinion is prefering pork over chicken. Trahearne was an objectively poorly cooked chicken, metaphorically speaking. I already explained, I’m not against characters taking away my precious fame, glory and screentime, and even if I am, I won’t start kittening about it on forums because there’s something I don’t like, much like I’m not kittening about 75% of this game’s lore because there’s some world building aspects I personally detest. Trahearne just didn’t do a good job.

I sometimes might like me some poorly written power-fantasy loved/feared by everyone perfect-in-every-way marry sues, but if someone tells me my opinion is crap because it’s not a well written character, I’ll tell them that their statement is true, because it pretty much is. I won’t do so in case with Trahearne.

I’m not sure where exactly my grammar is bad, and whether or not it’s actually bad grammar and not a “fat fingers + mobile device” type of issue and I’ll be honest, I can’t be bothered to check for mistakes at the moment.

Upd. I made a silly decision to actually believe I’ve no idea what I’m talking about, so I double checked on the “objective opinion” definition, and it means exactly what I meant. I’m just enough of an arrogant dipsheite to brand my thoughts on certain subjects as actual facts. Because Trahearne’s role was never good storytelling.

Also, Kormir, what the kitten dude? Kormir was the same trope done extremely well.

BTW this is probably where we should cease our social contact, I don’t believe anything productive is likely to happen from our conversation.

(edited by Grimheart.2853)

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir.

It’s an opinion, regardless of how sure you are that your point of view is shared by the masses. There’s widespread differences of opinion about Trahearne, Scarlet, and even Kormir.

You do damage to your own points of view by trying to insist otherwise.

I’ve no idea how to explain to you, that if a chef in a restoraunt serves you a literal pile of fecal matter on a plate when you asked for a steak, it doesn’t matter if you like it because you’re into that sort if stuff, it’s still a pile of fecal matter on a plate. Seems pointless to me to go on anymore.

That would be a great analogy if it weren’t off the mark in so many ways. I get you don’t like how the character was written, nor do you like how the actor was directed initially nor for the updated voice over. That doesn’t mean that you (or I) can speak for how anyone else felt.

People walked out of Igor Stravinsky’s The Rites of Spring when it was first performed. The critics panned it as a “laborious and puerile barbarity”, i.e. fecal matter on a plate. Only a year later, the performance of the same music was a considered a triumph.

There’s no objective truth about art; people like what they like. So no, you don’t have to explain to me about how you feel. That doesn’t mean I have to agree.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

It’s not a matter of my personal subjective storytelling preference in the slightest. There is an objective answer and it is that Trahearne was a bad character, just like beforementioned Skarlet and Kormir.

It’s an opinion, regardless of how sure you are that your point of view is shared by the masses. There’s widespread differences of opinion about Trahearne, Scarlet, and even Kormir.

You do damage to your own points of view by trying to insist otherwise.

I’ve no idea how to explain to you, that if a chef in a restoraunt serves you a literal pile of fecal matter on a plate when you asked for a steak, it doesn’t matter if you like it because you’re into that sort if stuff, it’s still a pile of fecal matter on a plate. Seems pointless to me to go on anymore.

That would be a great analogy if it weren’t off the mark in so many ways. I get you don’t like how the character was written, nor do you like how the actor was directed initially nor for the updated voice over. That doesn’t mean that you (or I) can speak for how anyone else felt.

People walked out of Igor Stravinsky’s The Rites of Spring when it was first performed. The critics panned it as a “laborious and puerile barbarity”, i.e. fecal matter on a plate. Only a year later, the performance of the same music was a considered a triumph.

There’s no objective truth about art; people like what they like. So no, you don’t have to explain to me about how you feel. That doesn’t mean I have to agree.

If I exclusively said that ‘noone has the right to enjoy the poorly written Trahearne’, I encourage you to show me where exactly I said that, and upon seeing my quote, I’ll admit on having a stroke at the moment of writing.

Something being bad doesn’t mean noone can enjoy it. Bad tastes exist, and I have them too, in certain spheres.

I quite like a few Nickelback songs, but if I ever dare to call them a ‘Great’ music band (which I won’t, because they’re not, but let’s assume for the sake of the argument that I will have an opinion like that because I enjoy some of the content they produce), I should be smashed over the head, because they’re sooooo painfuly much kings of “average” you could slap their photo next to a dictionary definition of the “average” word.

Something being poorly done doesn’t mean noone has the right to enjoy it. Literally everything in the world has around a 100% chance that there will be at least someone who will like it, but that doesn’t make everything in the world good.

Trahearne was poorly done, people can enjoy him for whatever reason they have, be it poor taste, low standarts for writing, having nothing to compare to or not giving a single kitten about the writing itself. That character was low standart, if someone has their standarts at this level, they’ll probably enjoy him, I’ll just point at those people and laugh, mostly for giggles, because I’m a bad person like that (and I won’t deny that I am for doing that, since it’s, well, actual ‘truth’ in this instance, but there’s no way I’m admitting someone did a good job in the writing department), just as someone could point at me and laugh on some music forum if I tried to praise beforementioned Nickelback as a high standart music band.

I’m not expecting you to agree by the way, I never expect that from anyone on the internet, and I kind of have no idea why you think I should. And I wasn’t explaining my feelings either, because in that particular instance you quoted, It was about making a point, and not any sort of opinions or “feelings”. the point being:

Subjective opinion is prefering pork over chicken. Trahearne was an objectively poorly cooked chicken, metaphorically speaking.

(edited by Grimheart.2853)

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

Well put, Grimheart (thanks for the giggles, by the way ), and so true.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

One can keep insisting that an opinion is an objective fact; it’s not.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Sister Saxifrage.7361

Sister Saxifrage.7361

Well, Trahearne was initially created to be just an info-dump character, someone who could plausibly be around the PC and explain things without it feeling too out of place. So a dry, scholarly tone was appropriate. But then he became more and more important and in the thick of the action as the plot went on, and the original tone the VA struck fit worse and worse. A mistake that I can imagine was easy to make and hard to correct if the voice production team wasn’t kept in the loop on the writing, just handed dialogue to read and make into recordings.

This is also a case of “be careful what you wish for”, because our new infodump character? Is Taimi.

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Posted by: Traveller.7496

Traveller.7496

I mean, have you heard Zojja?

The V/A in the personal story has been cringe-worthy and terrible from the get-go. The Living Story has improved upon this dramatically over the years.

I don’t really agree. The human female especially sounds way too forced and overly dramatic delivering every single line. It doesn’t sound natural at all.

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Posted by: jheryn.8390

jheryn.8390

If I exclusively said that ‘noone has the right to enjoy the poorly written Trahearne’, I encourage you to show me where exactly I said that, and upon seeing my quote, I’ll admit on having a stroke at the moment of writing.

Something being bad doesn’t mean noone can enjoy it. Bad tastes exist, and I have them too, in certain spheres.

I think maybe you are missing the point of what IWN is saying. You saying that Trahearne was “poorly written” and he is “something bad” is subjective not objective.

As much as I cannot stand Trahearne and I also believe he was poorly written, I have a couple of friends who think Trahearne, his dialog, and the voice actor were superb. They like his lines and writing. So he is NOT an objectively bad character in any way. He is a subjectively bad character.

You and I might think Trahearne was poorly executed in every way, but in order for him to be objectively bad, everyone would have to agree. There would have to be a basis for you claiming that.

I quite like a few Nickelback songs, but if I ever dare to call them a ‘Great’ music band (which I won’t, because they’re not, but let’s assume for the sake of the argument that I will have an opinion like that because I enjoy some of the content they produce), I should be smashed over the head, because they’re sooooo painfuly much kings of “average” you could slap their photo next to a dictionary definition of the “average” word.

Again, it doesn’t matter who the artist is or what form of art, you will always have people claiming (including experts) that they are Great, average, or poor. I guess I need to ask, what makes you the final say on whether something is great, average, or bad?

Subjective opinion is prefering pork over chicken. Trahearne was an objectively poorly cooked chicken, metaphorically speaking.

That also is not subjective opinion. That is preferential bias which is liking one thing over another.

Objective statements are ones that can be quantified by fact, data, collective consensus and proof. Even “majority opinion” is not objective. It is simply an largely held view.

Subjective statements are ones that you and others may feel to be true, but they are only true for the individual.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Nicklelback is a great example. You can say, objectively, that they never make it to any critics top 100 lists, none of any fan-site or industry top 100 list. You can’t say that tons and tons of people hate their music so much it’s generated legions of memes and jokes. That’s all objective.

What we cannot say is that it’s objectively bad music. There’s no objective criteria for deciding that.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Grimheart.2853

Grimheart.2853

Nicklelback is a great example. You can say, objectively, that they never make it to any critics top 100 lists, none of any fan-site or industry top 100 list. You can’t say that tons and tons of people hate their music so much it’s generated legions of memes and jokes. That’s all objective.

What we cannot say is that it’s objectively bad music. There’s no objective criteria for deciding that.

The objective criteria is not putting enough (if any) effort/talent/soul and simply producing medoicre quality auto-tuned content. The objective criteria is quality. If you’re not doing it good enough, then it’s quite obviously not done good enough.