Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone.

I’ve been thinking lately that it’s been over a year since the last trait system rework happened. It was together with the Lion’s Arch rebuilding patch in June. Reason why is.. we have 3 traitlines now, and obviously one has to be the elite specialization otherwise you drastically lack in efficiency compared to the vanilla professions.

What do you guys think, do we need a new trait rework for more customization?

Suggestion 1- Group similar traits. Completely open the trait system for selection. Allow players to select 18 core profession traits or… (I’m assuming we will only be able to have one elite specialization active at a time) 12 core profession traits and 6 elite specialization traits.

Or…

Suggestion 2… Group similar traits. Reorganize them in lines more sensibly by type. No forced preset choices. Players get 3 line choices from core profession traits and 1 elite specialization choice, totaling 4 lines. Players can choose 2 traits from Adept, 2 from Master and 2 from Grandmaster for each line selected.

To explain suggestion 2 better…

Weapon Mastery line All profession weapon improvements are lumped into this line. An example of set up…

Weapon Adept- Improves all main hand weapons.

Weapon Master- Improves all off hand weapons.

Weapon Grandmaster- Improves all two handed weapons.

Slot Skills Mastery line All slot skill improvements go here…

Slot Skill Adept- Improves heal slot skills.

Slot Skill Master- Improves utility skills.

Slot Skill Grandmaster- Improves elite slot skills.

Offensive Mastery line All offensive tailored traits go here.

Offensive Adept… Improves power skills.

Offensive Master… Improves precision skills.

Offensive Grandmaster… Improves fury.

Condition and Control Mastery line All condition and control tailored traits go here.

Condition Adept… Improves “soft” condition damage.

Condition Master… Improves control effects

Condition Grandmaster… Improves condition duration.

Defensive Mastery line All defensive tailored traits go here.

Defensive Adept… Improves dodges.

Defensive Master… Improves resistance to non condition damage sources.

Defensive Grandmaster… Improves resistance to conditions and control effects.

Core professions “schtick”++ line All traits that improve unique mechanics for professions go here… Elementalist Attunment++. Engineer Tool Belt++. Guardian Virtues++. Mesmer Shatter++. Necromancer Death Shroud++. Ranger Pets++. Revenant Legends++. Thief Steal++. Warrior Burst++

Core professions “schtick”++ Adept…

Core professions “schtick”++ Master…

Core professions “schtick”++ Grandmaster…

Elite Specialization 1 Mastery line… All generation 1 adept, master and grandmaster elite traits go here.

Elite Specialization 2 Mastery line… All generation 2 adept, master, grandmaster elite traits go here.

Elite Spec 3…

Thoughts?

Personally I like it as it is now, easy to unlock and way more manageable then the old one. True I would at times like to be able to unlock the skills in the order I see fit, but it’s not really anything I mind as such.
However I do think it would be nice to have some more variation possibilities in the builds – and for the vanilla builds to be more usable as some are still really fun to play, though not as useful. Maybe something like a 4’th line – though I’m not into builds and how it works on the system and balance, so no clue if it would be a viable way to do it.

I agree that a 4’th line would be nice for some more diversity – though the balancing will most likely be a hell, but doesn’t this look some alike to the old system?
I’m not all into builds and how they work as much as others, but I like how the current system is much easier and more simple to use. The old system and in parts what you suggest here can become really complicated, and maybe too complicated for some to get a hang on compared to the current one.

I don’t think people care whether trait systems are complicated or not. Considering that probably 90% of the players go with whatever Metabattle tells them to go with.

BattleRattle.5420:

I agree that a 4’th line would be nice for some more diversity – though the balancing will most likely be a hell, but doesn’t this look some alike to the old system?
I’m not all into builds and how they work as much as others, but I like how the current system is much easier and more simple to use. The old system and in parts what you suggest here can become really complicated, and maybe too complicated for some to get a hang on compared to the current one.

I believe balancing can be done better by reorganizing and combining similar traits so they are not all over the place. I don’t think a system like this would be more complicated, I feel it would be “cleaner” and less complex.

The first suggestion offers much greater build diversity. The second suggestion offers clearer and more defined builds to be made because the traits are specifically organized.

I brought this suggestion because whenever I open up the trait panel it’s like a spider nest of traits all over.

I preferred the original system, but after the utter mess of the first overhaul and the year or so it took to fix it, I hope they just leave it alone.

I liked the original system as it felt like it gave much more customization opportunities.

That said, the new system actually gives more actual traits to use. As much work as they put into this new system, I cannot see them changing it in any drastic way.

IMO it’s probably better that they don’t change it. When new elite specs are added, this system will make sure only one elite can be used at a time.

I think the system is fine as is. Also, the reworking of systems that aren’t broken, e.g. the New Player Experience, along with taking time to go back and gut old content in the starting areas, combined with destroying existing content, e.g. Lion’s Arch and the Zephyrites, contributed significantly toward the lack of content in the game now.

Please, no more systems reworks. The game needs the devs to focus on a sustainable release cadence of new content. They’ve already reinvented major aspects of the game’s systems multiple times. Sometimes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Thelgar.7214:

I think the system is fine as is. Also, the reworking of systems that aren’t broken, e.g. the New Player Experience, along with taking time to go back and gut old content in the starting areas, combined with destroying existing content, e.g. Lion’s Arch and the Zephyrites, contributed significantly toward the lack of content in the game now.

This. There are times that the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Goldfox.5729:

I don’t think people care whether trait systems are complicated or not. Considering that probably 90% of the players go with whatever Metabattle tells them to go with.

They wouldn’t be using metabattle if there wasn’t such a significant difference from core to elite specs though.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Please, no more systems reworks. The game needs the devs to focus on a sustainable release cadence of new content. They’ve already reinvented major aspects of the game’s systems multiple times. Sometimes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Why not? A system rework may be far easier to balance around.

jheryn.8390:

I liked the original system as it felt like it gave much more customization opportunities.

That said, the new system actually gives more actual traits to use. As much work as they put into this new system, I cannot see them changing it in any drastic way.

IMO it’s probably better that they don’t change it. When new elite specs are added, this system will make sure only one elite can be used at a time.

Yea sadly I didint play with the older trait system but I was wondering why they took it out from the videos it looked like ut had more flexibility they seemed really cool.

It’s not broken, so don’t “fix” it.

BrotherBelial.3094:

It’s not broken, so don’t “fix” it.

This.

On the one hand the original had more flexibility.

On the other hand the original had some very trashy traits. Great for showing off a big number of permutations possible but in practice it was a much smaller number.

Goldfox.5729:

Hello everyone.

I’ve been thinking lately that it’s been over a year since the last trait system rework happened. It was together with the Lion’s Arch rebuilding patch in June. Reason why is.. we have 3 traitlines now, and obviously one has to be the elite specialization otherwise you drastically lack in efficiency compared to the vanilla professions.

What do you guys think, do we need a new trait rework for more customization?

We have plenty of customization. I would like it better if the elite specializations were mostly just different from core specs, rather than feel essential and/or overpowered. But even within the limitation of only having only two other lines to choose, there are plenty of options.

BrotherBelial.3094:

It’s not broken, so don’t “fix” it.

I think a trait system that eliminates variety and cause a mass exile can’t be described as “not broken”.

They should revert back to the system and balance as it was just after the day of the engi-turrets nerf, and rebalance the elite professions around that.

Xillllix.3485:

I think a trait system that eliminates variety and cause a mass exile can’t be described as “not broken”.

Um, what?

Khisanth.2948:

On the one hand the original had more flexibility.

On the other hand the original had some very trashy traits. Great for showing off a big number of permutations possible but in practice it was a much smaller number.

This.

The one thing the older trait system had was being able to dip into more than 3 trait lines. Useful in some edge cases, but we’re better off with fewer, more potent traits.

Please no more reworking. I was glad to get away from the NPE version with the terrible implementation of having to go to zones 20 levels past you to get traits that should be available much sooner, but now we have a system that works in a streamlined, straightforward manner.

ANet has reworked systems over and over again at the cost of giving us new things to do and see, and it’s time for them to follow through on what they said about having set a lot of base systems via HoT and the April patch that will let them expand in the future without needing more foundational design.

I like the different opinions I’m reading here! Keep on discussing!

Xillllix.3485:

BrotherBelial.3094:

It’s not broken, so don’t “fix” it.

I think a trait system that eliminates variety and cause a mass exile can’t be described as “not broken”.

They should revert back to the system and balance as it was just after the day of the engi-turrets nerf, and rebalance the elite professions around that.

Why so people can be confused?

I am so happy with the trait/build system’s current incarnation after two years of the disastrous second version. I would hate to see this system abandoned. I have some issues with balance, particularly pertaining to elite specs, but that has almost nothing at all to do with the way we access and unlock builds.

Rauderi.8706:

Khisanth.2948:

On the one hand the original had more flexibility.

On the other hand the original had some very trashy traits. Great for showing off a big number of permutations possible but in practice it was a much smaller number.

This.

The one thing the older trait system had was being able to dip into more than 3 trait lines. Useful in some edge cases, but we’re better off with fewer, more potent traits.

There is still stuff like Powerful Synergy. I still haven’t found any compelling reason for using it.

To be fair, there isn’t a large difference in how the old vs new systems worked. In both, you buy skills and traits. You slot skills and you pick traitlines.

What the new system did was take out a lot of (mostly) useless possibilities and gave us more interesting choices. I’m not a fan of providing bad choices — I’d rather have fewer choices and have them all (mostly) be good.

In any case, I don’t see a reason to change it again right now.

Khisanth.2948:

Rauderi.8706:

Khisanth.2948:

On the one hand the original had more flexibility.

On the other hand the original had some very trashy traits. Great for showing off a big number of permutations possible but in practice it was a much smaller number.

This.

The one thing the older trait system had was being able to dip into more than 3 trait lines. Useful in some edge cases, but we’re better off with fewer, more potent traits.

There is still stuff like Powerful Synergy. I still haven’t found any compelling reason for using it.

True, true. There’s still a lot of “why bother” traits. That’s not a flaw in the system itself, but in the details.

The current trait system is great. It’s quick, easy to understand, and provides reasonable flexibility without tacking on a legion of useless permutations.

We need intra- and inter-profession balance at this stage. We need to whip those traits that aren’t being used to make them better and more compelling.

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Please, no more systems reworks. The game needs the devs to focus on a sustainable release cadence of new content. They’ve already reinvented major aspects of the game’s systems multiple times. Sometimes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Why not? A system rework may be far easier to balance around.

Because in the history of this game, major system reworks derail content production. The health of the game is dependent on keeping people engaged. New content on a sustainable, relatively frequent basis will do that far better than yet another system rework that may (or may not) be easier to balance and about which so few players seem to care.

The only thing I don’t like bout the system is elites taking a slot. I was hoping they would get a panel of their own.

As for traits themselves, there does need to be a new overhaul. Some trait lines for some professions are a mess (warriors), and it’s time to drop specific weapon traits and instead move on to group (instead of a trait affecting ONLY great swords, make it “slashing” and have the slashing group contain great swords, axes, etc.

I can see this helping with build diversity, since now you aren’t locked into one weapon.

Serophous.9085:

The only thing I don’t like bout the system is elites taking a slot. I was hoping they would get a panel of their own.

As for traits themselves, there does need to be a new overhaul. Some trait lines for some professions are a mess (warriors), and it’s time to drop specific weapon traits and instead move on to group (instead of a trait affecting ONLY great swords, make it “slashing” and have the slashing group contain great swords, axes, etc.

I can see this helping with build diversity, since now you aren’t locked into one weapon.

You want elite specs to use their own slot? O_o

That would be some serious power creep.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Please, no more systems reworks. The game needs the devs to focus on a sustainable release cadence of new content. They’ve already reinvented major aspects of the game’s systems multiple times. Sometimes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Why not? A system rework may be far easier to balance around.

Because in the history of this game, major system reworks derail content production. The health of the game is dependent on keeping people engaged. New content on a sustainable, relatively frequent basis will do that far better than yet another system rework that may (or may not) be easier to balance and about which so few players seem to care.

Well the history of this game indicates that professions need a lot of work. Professions and combat are also the central core to every part of this game. Profession designs and combat systems are content, but have recieced the least amount of development over the course of 4 years…

You are fooling yourself if you think that Anet can’t work on professions along with other content.

Profession and combat improvements are also marketable, generate interest and increase retention rates.

Swagger.1459:

Profession and combat improvements are also marketable, generate interest and increase retention rates.

Uh really? I don’t ever remember seeing any company trying to get interest in their game by saying “come play our game, we have a new balance patch out!”.

Serophous.9085:

The only thing I don’t like bout the system is elites taking a slot. I was hoping they would get a panel of their own.

As for traits themselves, there does need to be a new overhaul. Some trait lines for some professions are a mess (warriors), and it’s time to drop specific weapon traits and instead move on to group (instead of a trait affecting ONLY great swords, make it “slashing” and have the slashing group contain great swords, axes, etc.

I can see this helping with build diversity, since now you aren’t locked into one weapon.

Elite specs are powerful enough by taking up one of three traitlines. With having all of your original 3 traitlines and an elite spec it would be absolutely absurd.

However, a lot of players do feel shoehorned into always taking the same 2 out of 5 traitlines with their elite spec because those are the most important to simply survive. So that should be addressed by balancing the core traitlines better with each other. I don’t think we should be in a situation where 1 traitline is almost never used and another 1 is almost never gone without because one is so much more viable than the other one

Rauderi.8706:

Khisanth.2948:

Rauderi.8706:

Khisanth.2948:

On the one hand the original had more flexibility.

On the other hand the original had some very trashy traits. Great for showing off a big number of permutations possible but in practice it was a much smaller number.

This.

The one thing the older trait system had was being able to dip into more than 3 trait lines. Useful in some edge cases, but we’re better off with fewer, more potent traits.

There is still stuff like Powerful Synergy. I still haven’t found any compelling reason for using it.

True, true. There’s still a lot of “why bother” traits. That’s not a flaw in the system itself, but in the details.

The current trait system is great. It’s quick, easy to understand, and provides reasonable flexibility without tacking on a legion of useless permutations.

We need intra- and inter-profession balance at this stage. We need to whip those traits that aren’t being used to make them better and more compelling.

For me, personally, “why bother” traits are the mandatory ones that try to shoehorn me into a role with my class that I’m not interested in (stealth for Thief, shroud form for Necro). But, they are lodged in specs that have the most benefits, relatively speaking, for how I’m playing that toon, so I have no choice. Instead of us getting to choose what we wanted in the original trait system, now we have less freedom because there will always be the traits that some people don’t even care about or use.

Khisanth.2948:

Swagger.1459:

Profession and combat improvements are also marketable, generate interest and increase retention rates.

Uh really? I don’t ever remember seeing any company trying to get interest in their game by saying “come play our game, we have a new balance patch out!”.

There are a number of mmo who have made big class improvements and used it as a marketing tool because it sparks interest…

Are you saying that if Anet got serious about revamping professions they wouldn’t highlight it? Revamping professions means that it improves the user experience in pve, raids, wvw, spvp, for esports…

Players have begged for years for improvements, and many have had a lot of issues with professions design and combat elements, so making big improvements is sellable to current and old players. It’s also something to take note of for new players… Any big changes would be noteworthy, and I could easily pluck a whole bunch mmo news to show you, but I’m not going to spam stuff from other games here…

And if you think profession improvements are not important, then it’s useless to respond to you and get this thread off track.

Let’s get back on topic of traits here.

I think the system is fine as it is, and reworking it just because it’s been a while since they last changed it would be a horrible idea.

It’s probably not perfect, but especially when you consider that some of the frustrating limitations are there for the sake of balance it becomes very difficult to come up with something better.

For example whilst it would be nice on an individual basis to be able to freely select from all the available traits it would be a nightmare to balance it. At the moment they can afford to have traits which are very good on their own and would be ridiculously over-powered if combined as long as they’re positioned so that they can’t be combined. If you can use every trait with every other trait then every trait has to be balanced to work with every other trait and that’s a massive amount of work.

I actually liked the first system, where traits also affected our stats and where it was possible to put points in that didn’t get you up to the next major/minor trait but did boost your stats. The only part I didn’t like was buying a book to unlock them.

But I’m glad they removed the stats before adding elite specs (especially because my main is a condition/power ranger using the druid spec and that would almost certainly have had healing stats) and without them having the ability to put points in that don’t unlock a trait would be pointless.

So the only part I really miss is the ability to put points into more than 3 lines as long as you didn’t want the grandmaster trait, and the fact that anyone would do that suggests there were problems with the grandmaster traits. Choosing only weaker options shouldn’t ever be a sensible idea.

Goldfox.5729:

I don’t think people care whether trait systems are complicated or not. Considering that probably 90% of the players go with whatever Metabattle tells them to go with.

I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 50% of players have never visited Metabattle. I never even hear it mentioned outside of this forum, and not that often within the forum.

To be honest… I’d like to see that the elite-specialization abilities can be switched on/off with a toggle that doesn’t require you to invest a whole traitline just to have the abilites. Then simply remove or partially remove some of the existing traits from an elite-specialization traitline.. and work them inside the toggled mode. Then.. balance it out with the 3 core traitlines!

Much more diversity.. and still access to the multiple bursting on Warrior for an example, or healing on Ranger! (and every other profession and their elite-specialization weapons).

Swagger.1459:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Well the history of this game indicates that professions need a lot of work. Professions and combat are also the central core to every part of this game. Profession designs and combat systems are content, but have recieced the least amount of development over the course of 4 years…

Bullgravy. Game systems are not content, they’re the means by which players engage with content. More bullgravy. WvW has seen the least amount of attention, followed by PVP, followed by dungeons — all of which are playable content. Professions have seen two trait reworks already, plus many skill balance patches. Think what you like, but you’re living a fantasy.

You are fooling yourself if you think that Anet can’t work on professions along with other content.

Sure they can. Why did every system rework mean a longer time between content patches? Every single one. Because you cannot design content until you know the systems you’re designing them to interact with.

Profession and combat improvements are also marketable, generate interest and increase retention rates.

Show me the volume of complaints about existing systems to match the complaints about content drought — which are so prevalent that MO referred to a “content drought” in his recent post — and I’ll believe you. Until then, no, you’re incorrect.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Swagger.1459:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Well the history of this game indicates that professions need a lot of work. Professions and combat are also the central core to every part of this game. Profession designs and combat systems are content, but have recieced the least amount of development over the course of 4 years…

Bullgravy. Game systems are not content, they’re the means by which players engage with content. More bullgravy. WvW has seen the least amount of attention, followed by PVP, followed by dungeons — all of which are playable content. Professions have seen two trait reworks already, plus many skill balance patches. Think what you like, but you’re living a fantasy.

You are fooling yourself if you think that Anet can’t work on professions along with other content.

Sure they can. Why did every system rework mean a longer time between content patches? Every single one. Because you cannot design content until you know the systems you’re designing them to interact with.

Profession and combat improvements are also marketable, generate interest and increase retention rates.

Show me the volume of complaints about existing systems to match the complaints about content drought — which are so prevalent that MO referred to a “content drought” in his recent post — and I’ll believe you. Until then, no, you’re incorrect.

Professions and combat are the main core game elements, and almost everything is designed around these professions and how combat unfolds… These areas are greater than your content drought…

You are silly if you think the devs can’t work on multiple things…

Edit- spend some time on the profession, pvp and wvw forums and you’ll see the complaints that far outweigh this content drought.

Edit 2- and your content is coming on the 26th. Your content xpac is being worked on by 100 devs. Your raid content is being worked on… You may not value profession improvements, but there are players who do, so don’t think this team is not capable of fulfilling important requests like these too…

Swagger.1459:

Professions and combat are the main core game elements, and almost everything is designed around these professions and how combat unfolds… These areas are greater than your content drought…

More work on systems would only be justified if the current iteration is broken, which is not the case. If you think it is, what makes you think ANet will get it right on the 4th try if they blew it on 1-3?

You are silly if you think the devs can’t work on multiple things…

Yes, you said something like that before. Restating it as an ad hominem does nothing to refute my counter, so I conclude you’ve got no counter.

Edit- spend some time on the profession, pvp and wvw forums and you’ll see the complaints that far outweigh this content drought.

I see the same balance complaints in the PvP mode boards one always sees and will always see. If you think a trait rework will fix that, you’re wrong.

Edit 2- and your content is coming on the 26th. Your content xpac is being worked on by 100 devs. Your raid content is being worked on… You may not value profession improvements, but there are players who do, so don’t think this team is not capable of fulfilling important requests like these too…

Content needs to be more regular, which means a sustainable release cadence. Anet is aiming for that, and they’ve allocated dev resources to that idea while also prepping for a future XPac. It’s yet to be demonstrated that they will achieve that goal, and if they do, what resources would be left over for systems work.

Please do demonstrate that your suggestion is important and valued by enough players to warrant consideration. Hint: just your saying it’s important doesn’t cut it, whereas the lack of a groundswell of support for your suggestion speaks volumes. You seem to want to remove opportunity costs. That’s a horrid idea. Please do prove me wrong on either count, but the proof is going to need to be convincing and not just your opinion.

Disclaimer: Feel free to ignore me. After all, I’m only expressing my own view, just as you are. Do note though, that I’ll actually admit it if I’m in error, which makes me an easy audience. If you can’t convince me, you’ll be unlikely to convince other forum goers who don’t already agree with you.

Swagger.1459:

Professions and combat are the main core game elements, and almost everything is designed around these professions and how combat unfolds… These areas are greater than your content drought…

True, but you have failed to show how the current system is so bad or underdeveloped that it needs fixing. All that has happened so far in this thread is a couple of people have voiced their subjective opinion on this matter.

All in all, the complaints about the new trait system have died down after a period of accustomisation.

Also the argument here is for a revamp and change of the current system. This has nothing to do with balance. That is a sepperate issue entirely unless you show how the current system has such big flaws that balance would not be possible.

Swagger.1459:

You are silly if you think the devs can’t work on multiple things…

Anything the developers do costs ressources. In this case mostly human ressources. While some things might take less extra time, every bit of extra work will ultimately require something else to be put on hold. Especially if you are working on something as complex as a complete combat revamp.

Who is kidding himself in this case I wonder?

Swagger.1459:

Edit- spend some time on the profession, pvp and wvw forums and you’ll see the complaints that far outweigh this content drought.

Please show me a time when the pvp/wvw forums were not full of complaints. It’s in the nature of the game mode and it’s competative nature that people will blame others or balance instead of their own mistakes.

That being said, please do go read the wvw forums. The main issue there will be content drought (which has been a topic for over 1.5 years now or even longer) and not class balance. Especially since the new HoT maps failed and the old borderlands had to be reintroduced.

Swagger.1459:

Edit 2- and your content is coming on the 26th. Your content xpac is being worked on by 100 devs. Your raid content is being worked on… You may not value profession improvements, but there are players who do, so don’t think this team is not capable of fulfilling important requests like these too…

You still haven’t shown that a revamp would improve the situation nor have you shown that the current system is flawed.

To argue that “look your content is coming” so people should stop demanding content or focus on content just shows your inexperience with MMO titles. Content developement is a constant process. As such ressource allocation is vital (read MO last post about how much work goes into Season 3) and when faced between a working trait and skill system versus game content, I doubt a majority of players will select the former as priority currently or in the near future.

Nope. Not going to change yet again. The current system was set up to allow elite specializations, we believe the next expansion will feature another elite for each profession so they won’t revamp it so soon.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Swagger.1459:

Professions and combat are the main core game elements, and almost everything is designed around these professions and how combat unfolds… These areas are greater than your content drought…

More work on systems would only be justified if the current iteration is broken, which is not the case. If you think it is, what makes you think ANet will get it right on the 4th try if they blew it on 1-3?

You are silly if you think the devs can’t work on multiple things…

Yes, you said something like that before. Restating it as an ad hominem does nothing to refute my counter, so I conclude you’ve got no counter.

Edit- spend some time on the profession, pvp and wvw forums and you’ll see the complaints that far outweigh this content drought.

I see the same balance complaints in the PvP mode boards one always sees and will always see. If you think a trait rework will fix that, you’re wrong.

Edit 2- and your content is coming on the 26th. Your content xpac is being worked on by 100 devs. Your raid content is being worked on… You may not value profession improvements, but there are players who do, so don’t think this team is not capable of fulfilling important requests like these too…

Content needs to be more regular, which means a sustainable release cadence. Anet is aiming for that, and they’ve allocated dev resources to that idea while also prepping for a future XPac. It’s yet to be demonstrated that they will achieve that goal, and if they do, what resources would be left over for systems work.

Please do demonstrate that your suggestion is important and valued by enough players to warrant consideration. Hint: just your saying it’s important doesn’t cut it, whereas the lack of a groundswell of support for your suggestion speaks volumes. You seem to want to remove opportunity costs. That’s a horrid idea. Please do prove me wrong on either count, but the proof is going to need to be convincing and not just your opinion.

Disclaimer: Feel free to ignore me. After all, I’m only expressing my own view, just as you are. Do note though, that I’ll actually admit it if I’m in error, which makes me an easy audience. If you can’t convince me, you’ll be unlikely to convince other forum goers who don’t already agree with you.

Your basic argument is… “Don’t improve professions because we need content”… Well there has been 4 years of feedback on professions, and much of it goes ignored… You are getting your content that’s being produced as we speak, so no need to act as if things aren’t coming down the pipeline or that arenanet is some impoverished game company that can’t at some point make improvements to professions.

Convincing you? I’m not here to appease you so feel free to look up all the feedback on balance, useless traits and skills, certain disparities between professions, other glaring issues…

There are many facets to the game, but to swoop in here and say professions don’t need work, given all the feedback, is obviously you not paying attention. Spend some time digging through the profession forums for your trait and other feedback.

Neither system is all bad or all good.

The old, original system allowed for more flexibility among the available traits and which slot held them. You could have The Adept, Master, and Grandmaster spots hold Adept traits if you wanted to. However, there were a lot of useless traits.

The newest system pretty much has no useless traits. It’s harder to build yourself into a really bad build due to this. However, flexibility within the traits isn’t that high.

The newest system is easier to balance than the oldest system due to the lower number of maximum possible builds. The oldest system is easier for players who prefer to play a certain way to trait a certain way.

There will be no system that will please everyone. The more flexibility there is the harder it is to balance and players will always be on the extremes of wanting more balance OR wanting more flexibility.

And remember that when they mess with the trait acquisition system it makes it harder to do balancing since there will be players who forget to reapply their traits.

With that last paragraph in mind, I do not think the current system is “broken” enough to warrant changing at this time.

Cyninja.2954:

Swagger.1459:

Professions and combat are the main core game elements, and almost everything is designed around these professions and how combat unfolds… These areas are greater than your content drought…

True, but you have failed to show how the current system is so bad or underdeveloped that it needs fixing. All that has happened so far in this thread is a couple of people have voiced their subjective opinion on this matter.

All in all, the complaints about the new trait system have died down after a period of accustomisation.

Also the argument here is for a revamp and change of the current system. This has nothing to do with balance. That is a sepperate issue entirely unless you show how the current system has such big flaws that balance would not be possible.

are you implying there haven’t been any other suggestions to improve traits on these forums? Are you implying that traits are not part of the balance equation?

Swagger.1459:

You are silly if you think the devs can’t work on multiple things…

Anything the developers do costs ressources. In this case mostly human ressources. While some things might take less extra time, every bit of extra work will ultimately require something else to be put on hold. Especially if you are working on something as complex as a complete combat revamp.

Who is kidding himself in this case I wonder?

are you saying Anet is not capable of improving professions over time and working on other content? are your expectations of Anet really that low?

Swagger.1459:

Edit- spend some time on the profession, pvp and wvw forums and you’ll see the complaints that far outweigh this content drought.

Please show me a time when the pvp/wvw forums were not full of complaints. It’s in the nature of the game mode and it’s competative nature that people will blame others or balance instead of their own mistakes.

That being said, please do go read the wvw forums. The main issue there will be content drought (which has been a topic for over 1.5 years now or even longer) and not class balance. Especially since the new HoT maps failed and the old borderlands had to be reintroduced.

are you saying that there hasn’t been feedback on professions in the sections I mentioned?

Swagger.1459:

Edit 2- and your content is coming on the 26th. Your content xpac is being worked on by 100 devs. Your raid content is being worked on… You may not value profession improvements, but there are players who do, so don’t think this team is not capable of fulfilling important requests like these too…

You still haven’t shown that a revamp would improve the situation nor have you shown that the current system is flawed.

I brought 2 suggestions… Reorganize and combine similar traits and open up the trait system which would mean greater build flexibility, or reorganize and combine traits more sensibly into categories to create more defined builds. Those hardly needed an essay of explanation.

To argue that “look your content is coming” so people should stop demanding content or focus on content just shows your inexperience with MMO titles. Content developement is a constant process. As such ressource allocation is vital (read MO last post about how much work goes into Season 3) and when faced between a working trait and skill system versus game content, I doubt a majority of players will select the former as priority currently or in the near future.

It’s helpful if you read the full conversation between another poster and put things into better context before you reply.

The major problem I have with the trait system is the elite spec. It, in most cases, is required which never should be the case for trait lines. In the case of the Druid you have a non-ranger archetype successfully competing with the archetypal ones. I would like a reworking of traits to deal with the elite spec. I don’t know if that is moving to four lines but I agree something should be done. My rangers are not happy.

I don’t think requiring that you have the elite trait equipped to use the weapon and the utilities was a good idea. It basically forced you to always have that trait line equipped, even if you really don’t like the trait themselves, just so your entire class is unlocked. If those were unlocked just by having done the elite, but not with the elite required to take up one line, then it would open up a lot more builds.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

I don’t think requiring that you have the elite trait equipped to use the weapon and the utilities was a good idea. It basically forced you to always have that trait line equipped, even if you really don’t like the trait themselves, just so your entire class is unlocked. If those were unlocked just by having done the elite, but not with the elite required to take up one line, then it would open up a lot more builds.

But imagine how it will look when there are multiple elite specs unlocked. That’s too powerful, so them setting it up like this may be Anet thinking ahead on it.

Swagger.1459:

Your basic argument is… “Don’t improve professions because we need content”…

Nope. It’s, “The game needs a system for regular, sustained release of playable content more than it needs to fix something that is not broken.”

Well there has been 4 years of feedback on professions, and much of it goes ignored…

Much of the feedback on professions is ignored because it ignores the fundamentals of MMO class design much as your trait revamp ideas ignore the idea of opportunity costs.

You are getting your content that’s being produced as we speak, so no need to act as if things aren’t coming down the pipeline or that arenanet is some impoverished game company that can’t at some point make improvements to professions.

ANet has acknowledged the need for a sustained release cadence, and have yet to prove they can pull it off. They took 6 devs off the LW 2.0 team with the stated purpose being that they better served the game’s needs working on content. This move delayed the provision of a feature that people spent money on HoT to get access to. What does that suggest to you about ANet’s willingness to split their resources too much?

Convincing you? I’m not here to appease you so feel free to look up all the feedback on balance, useless traits and skills, certain disparities between professions, other glaring issues…

Why would I need to be appeased? As to convincing me, if you can’t convince me that your proposed revamp is needed, you sure aren’t going to convince ANet. I’ve seen loads of comments about useless traits and skills, disparities between professions, etc. As before, a trait revamp would have little to no impact on the volume of such complaints.

There are many facets to the game, but to swoop in here and say professions don’t need work, given all the feedback, is obviously you not paying attention.

Strawman. I never said that professions should not be worked on. There’s a lot of room between, “Let’s completely revamp the traits system and ignore opportunity costs so players can have what they want,” and “There should be ongoing efforts to balance the professions and tweaking traits should be part of that effort.”

Spend some time digging through the profession forums for your trait and other feedback.

I already spend too much time there, but thanks for the suggestion. Mostly what I see re traits is either advice on a build, or balance suggestions. Trait Balance is part of ongoing profession balance efforts and does not in any way require an out and out new system. Again, you have not proved that your suggestion is either needed or wanted by any more than yourself and maybe a few others. Address that issue, if you can, and want to advance your agenda._