Guild Wars 2

From Colin’s post, it did sound like traits were going to be tied to the Mastery system somehow. In the previous thread a number of posters suggested track-based progression, so it wouldn’t be too big a presumption to presume that’s what we’re getting.

Now that we’ve seen the Mastery system, I’m sure it’s safe to say traits != Mastery. It just wouldn’t make sense to permanently lock players out of a core system that they may already have access to.

It doesn’t seem any more information is coming any time soon though.

Bellizare.5816:

This stuff makes my head explode.

Since the intention seems to be to rework the entire traits structure sometime (to be determined), it would appear to be a waste of time to level a character at this time. Probably a waste of money as well.

Can someone explain to me why my logic is faulty?

I suspect those are resources better spent elsewhere. It just depends on how long it will be (5-7 months most likely). I hope it’s sooner, but that’s unlikely. Can you hold out that long?

Trust me Mo Mo, the first page has already had a number of sweeps with the Modbat.

I will say a lot of those off-topic complaints generally relate to the way the traits issue has been handled. It isn’t future looking, and that is the specific strand of discussion going for, but there is some level of relevance to them.

The apparent direction of account unlocks, if comes true for for the revamped trait system will I think be welcome by most, and certainly by me. As a serious altoholic who has felt a little abandoned with how Anet approached the last thread, it would be akin to manna in the wilderness.

I’m sort of wondering about any mechanism about unlocking traits outside of the activities. As it stands now its a gold and sp cost. Will that remain as an option? And if so, how would the (potential) account unlocks coupled with the known abolition of skill points from post-80 levels affect that cost, if they do at all?

I think on that I’m still in the mindset that it is too much effort to unlock them “properly”, but that may change when the actual details come out.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Shaaba.5672:

Bellizare.5816:

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

And just how will traits and skill points work for those that do not own Heart of Thorns?

No where was it said that the new trait system is tied into the mastery system. Colin mentioned that with the introduction of masteries, they are also re-evaluating other systems, like traits.

I’ve seen this misunderstood in several places. By mentioning them in the same post, and then not giving further clarification, these two get tied together in people’s minds and causes confusion and fear. This is one reason we need further information sooner rather than later.

Hell, maybe I’m the one misinterpreting the statement.

This is unclear?

Colin recently shared some information related to the Traits system. In addition our article on Masteries provided other early info that could be part of any conversation about traits or character progression. (Edit: I don’t mean to suggest that the two topics are intertwined, only to point you to two discussion about character progression that have been released in recent days.)

Yes, it is unclear to me how traits and skill points will function for those that do not own Heart Of Thorns. Or for those that do for that matter.

Skill points and Masteries are linked in the article regarding the changes.

Seriously, it looks to me like I should just wait until the thing rolls out before I waste time, money and progression that may be obsolete in the blink of an eye.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is unclear?

I think that some people don’t read very carefully and are quick to jump to conclusions. Like I said, I’ve seen this reaction more than a few times here and on other forums. Usually someone comes along to clarify, or calm someone down who is worried that traits won’t change unless they buy HoT.

If people are told change is coming, they fear the worst. If Anet wasn’t ready to talk about the changes, then honestly I think that not saying anything quite yet might have been better. Maybe. I don’t know. This has been a very big issue for a lot of people for a long time and anything short of explaining exactly how and when it will be implemented is not going to go over happily.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ashen.2907:

So you consider it to be words of wisdom that feedback from customers is, “non-constructive,” and, “ultimately irrelevant ?”

I find that to be a bit surprising considering how much effort on the part of players went into suggestions and the like in the other thread. I dont deny that some posts went too far or were offensive, but to disregard everyone who tried to participate in providing solutions to a perceived problem by describing their dismissal by others as words of wisdom seems a bit off in my opinion.

I think what we have here is failure to communicate, and if my words were not clear, I’ll state them again. We have no intention of closing discussion. No intention of disregarding the input of our players, which we value greatly. My comment referred to redundant and repeated and unconstructive comments only, not the overall input of perceptions and opinions. Closing the thread was timely in light of the fact that all valid feedback had been gathered, and more information will be forthcoming in the future.

Any forum member knows that not all comments are “words of wisdom.” Many are. Our position is not to close and ignore, but to close and move to a second round of discussion. We’d rather not see 14 posts by the same person saying the exact same thing. It’s really that simple, and that is what was becoming the norm in the former thread. Yes, even the most ardent supporter of the previous thread can see that this is what happened.

Even when the input is valid, repetition is unnecessary and it can dilute the value of a thread. Hence a new thread that hopefully offers a fresh slate on which to collect new feedback as new information is released.

If it’s too early for you to comment, that’s fine. But if it’s too early for you to comment, then what purpose does the other thread serve, except to contain posts that say the same thing that has been said before?

Old thread: Closed. It will remain closed.
New thread: Join if you wish. Hold off if you’d prefer.

Your feedback, whether given now or in the future when you have more information upon which to base it, will be valued, as always. But please, everyone, keep the feedback on the topic of traits. We’re not going to discuss the old thread, the decision to open a new thread, or forum decisions in general, for that is of little to no importance in the overall scope of things.

My apologies for the tone of my posts in this thread so far. I shall make no excuses and simply say that I was in the wrong to approach the matter as I did. Whether or not I agree with some of what has been said and done I should have approached the matter differently.

I offer a further apology for the off topic nature of this post .

-Ashen

So, if I understand this correctly there will be no news any time soon on the trait system? It will not in any way shape or form resemble the mastery system? That is, this entire thread is simply a restart of the old thread?

I guess I will come back when ANet finally releases some information on what they intend to do regarding the trait system. My unsolicited advice to posters is to avoid this thread as much as possible – give then your single post on what’s wrong and how to fix it then walk away. Even if its a regurgitation of the old good idea you provided in the last thread.

So, taking my own advice and (while I might say this differently and add more these days) here is a regurgitation of my April 27, 2014 post (sans one part I no longer believe is necessary/reasonable) on the trait system:

The new trait system, as other have noted, is a very poorly implemented excellent idea. In my opinion it is also the most worrisome part of the recent update. The system is much harder on new players than established players and creates a “barrier to entry” that is likely to result in fewer new players staying with the game over time. To thrive, every MMO needs a constant, healthy supply of new players to replace those who (inevitably) leave the game.

First Suggestion: Get rid of the unnecessary and unwarranted delay in attaining traits. Delaying them an additional 10 levels was completely unnecessary and did not improve game play at all. In fact you went the exact opposite direction you should have gone. Players should begin earning trait points every 5 levels after level 10. They should have an incentive to hunt for traits and see the attainment of traits as part of developing the character. Backloading/delaying the availability of traits until well into the game makes that portion of the game more onerous than it should be.

Second Suggestion: Traits should be separately earnable within both PvE and WvW (I am assuming PvP character have access to all traits, if not they should). I think your community thought the message about not forcing them to play styles they did not like had penetrated – apparently not well enough. Anet should move the WvW obtained traits into PvE and open up a CDI with the WvW community focusing on how players who focus on that area of the game can earn the traits by playing WvW.

Third Suggestion: The biggest issue with earning the traits (as opposed to buying them) is clearly with the adept level traits. The work needed to unlock a trait should be appropriate to the level of the character that would be using the trait. This is all too often not the case. Also, all three trait tiers need variety in how the traits are earned. ANet should open up a CDI for each of the races and/or classes that focuses on PvE and solicit suggestions for different methods for each race and/or class to earn each of the traits.

Fourth Suggestion: You missed an opportunity to add build diversity with the update. There is no good reason to have mandatory traits. There never has been. There are no mandatory skills. There should be no mandatory traits. The basic level traits at each tier (Adept, Master and Grandmaster) should be simply another option to choose from. So, for example: the 16 total traits would become available in two sets (Basic, Advanced) in each of three tiers: Adept – Basic #1-4; Adept – Advanced #1-7; Master – Basic #1-10, Master – Advanced #1-12, Grandmaster – Basic #1-14; Grandmaster – Advanced #1-16. As part of the CDI in Suggestion #2 ANet should solicit community feedback on the rank/number/order of the traits as well. ANet has consistently failed to acknowledge some of their traits are extraordinarily underwhelming or simply completely outclassed by other options, and while they will have to pull the wheat from the chaff, here’s a hint – players asserting that “Executioner” is an Adept – Basic trait are trolling, those that think “Hard to Catch” is a Adept – Basic or Adept – Advanced trait are not.

Colin said the following …

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Basically because of the introduction of the mastery system, it gives them the excuse to fiddle with the rest of character progression and that trait acquisition is certainly changing. It’s like painting the living room gives you the excuse to change the flooring and furniture, at the very least the drapes.

And what we got last week simply answered a few of the myriad of questions about the Mastery System.

Behellagh.1468:

Colin said the following …

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Basically because of the introduction of the mastery system, it gives them the excuse to fiddle with the rest of character progression and that trait acquisition is certainly changing. It’s like painting the living room gives you the excuse to change the flooring and furniture, at the very least the drapes.

And what we got last week simply answered a few of the myriad of questions about the Mastery System.

if your take on this is correct, it means there is little connection at this stage. So the next question becomes
What are the goals anet hopes this new trait system can achieve that the current one lacks?
What is their overall plan for this (if there is one)
Is it at a stage where our feedback can change the course of design?

etc.

Otherwise, we really can only talk about whats currently wrong with traits, but then again we could have done that in the old thread, so i assume there is another focus for this one.

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

Colin said the following …

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Basically because of the introduction of the mastery system, it gives them the excuse to fiddle with the rest of character progression and that trait acquisition is certainly changing. It’s like painting the living room gives you the excuse to change the flooring and furniture, at the very least the drapes.

And what we got last week simply answered a few of the myriad of questions about the Mastery System.

if your take on this is correct, it means there is little connection at this stage. So the next question becomes
What are the goals anet hopes this new trait system can achieve that the current one lacks?
What is their overall plan for this (if there is one)
Is it at a stage where our feedback can change the course of design?

etc.

Otherwise, we really can only talk about whats currently wrong with traits, but then again we could have done that in the old thread, so i assume there is another focus for this one.

Well now we know traits are changing where most of the old thread was pitchforks and torches about trait changes last April. So knowing it’s changing and seeing their plan for the Mastery System, lets talk about what can be done to traits that may be similar to the Mastery System.

Off the bat my idea is the notion of unlocking a specific trait, as in 3rd trait track, 2nd Master trait is now account wide. Doesn’t matter which profession. The downside would be the likelihood you can’t buy your trait, or if you can that the price will increase. This would keep Richie Rich from account unlocking all the traits the first moment the change goes live.

This is the type of discussion I think they want to see here. But that’s my opinion, I could be wrong.

Can you guys just revert the trait changes back to pre patch?.. i don’t understand why you guys feel the need to completely the butcher the system for something completely inferior. Just let us use the previous system where we just buy 3 books and don’t have to worry about grinding for THE VERY BASICS OF OUR CHARACTER.

GW2 was so much more fun earlier in it’s release. The new traits and daily systems in addition to the NPE have ruined it for me. NPE dumbed the game down. With the new traits system, I just get no satisfaction from leveling, and leveling just feels like a grind now with no traits to play with until high levels. Let alone having to spend a fortune in gold on traits now. I’ve pretty much quit playing/creating any alts due to the new traits system. And now the daily achievements feel like a chore to grind out instead of being rewarded for playing the game naturally, the way I want to play it, as the old daily system used to do it. I’m sick of being goaded by ANet to play how and where they would like me to play. The new dailies have level 80’s zerging low level zones, fighting one another for credit, and making it harder for low level and new player characters to gain credit for the event, or basically enjoy leveling and completing other things.

To be honest, I’m probably just going to switch to Elder Scrolls Online since they’re dropping the subscription requirement on March 17. At least leveling in that game, I get a sense of progress and don’t have to pay a fortune in gold for it. Then I’ll probably try Black Desert whenever it gets released in North America.

I have a Warrior on one of my other accounts that I’ve played for 500 hours. Even after 500 hours the Warrior is still missing 23 out of the 65 traits available. That’s even with purchasing several of them too. I’m hoping this new trait/mastery system doesn’t come with an insane grind and cost. Seriously, I want to play the game. Chasing these other objectives keeps me from playing the content I wish to play.

Okay I’m legitimately confused. We aren’t allowed to discuss the old thread, we don’t actually have any updated information because the implication that these were tied to masteries was unintentional… What exactly are we discussing here?

Do we just keep posting till we reach the next 4,000 posts and 200,000 views?

I’m really not trying to argue here, but I’m lost on the intended point of discussion. The last thread at least had the pretence of asking for input. As far as I can tell from the last few weeks, the decision on where to go with traits either has been made, or will be made without discussing it with us. So… what are we supposed to be doing?

On a more productive note,so this isn’t just me being confused:

Could we please have some concrete details regarding the status of the decision making process and whether our input can still have any impact on it, as this will help in formulating posts.

Also, could we please at least have an explanation as to why, after ten months and the announcement of HoT, this issue is still secretive?

The current system ain’t bad except one big flaw: The goals seem simple on paper, but are very hard overall because: Event requirements, pre-events required, non bugged events required, map exploration required (like going to Breaktooth’s waypoint, for the puzzle chest, for trait – you need to completely explore the whole line towards that wp on the map, a big job imo). Also a lvl 80 fully geared can do these easely, while not truly hard for blue equips/no trait chars to do this, it makes it a bit more tedious. Like a lot of professions cannot run faster without traits (engie, except that one elixir), so to get the trait you must slowly walk towards it firstly, sounds a bit lame.

Imo Compare it to some of the more challenging heart quests (for instance in sparkfly fen, where you got to shoot burrows, then kill the grubs). One trait should take exactly that amount of time. Not more, not less. And most importantly: no unwanted conditions like ‘plz don’t bug event’, ‘plz start now event’ ‘plz let the pre-event be done’ ‘plz let there be enough people for this group-event’.

And lower the skill points costs, just a bit. It’s simply to high now, and the gold cost is already high, but I can live with it/understand it (though I also think it’s a bit high).

I’ve learnt very quickly that the Traits are, pointless! Why else would you gate them so late in game-play?

When I did get one, I couldn’t use it … I think I have another, but, I can’t be bothered seeing if it will be of any use.

Fortunately, the ‘game’ (PVE openworld, I don’t do WvW or Dungeons) is PPEasy enough. I grab a cup of coffee when I get downed.

Cynical me says: I can’t wait to have the privilege of mind-numbing grinding for what I already have!

Optimistic me hopes that isn’t the case.

NeedsFoodBadly.2671:

Cynical me says: I can’t wait to have the privilege of mind-numbing grinding for what I already have!

Optimistic me hopes that isn’t the case.

Cynicism. Love/hate relationship within oneself.
Know the feels.

But I am sure ANET has taken ALL those pages of feedback into consideration. Let’s just hope the intention matches the implementation. Since THAT seems to be where the fault lies.

As someone mentioned, ON PAPER it looks awesome, in practice, not so much.

I have some additional thoughts that I think are on topic.

As we know, Mastery points will be also awarded retroactively if some content has already been completed.
We also know that Mastery progression is account bound.

As far as Traits are concerned, we do know they are separate from Masteries, but that they are related in the sense that they are both a form of “building” your character.
It’s been stated clearly that the new direction is in making character progression “more respectful of player’s time” (not my words, I’m quoting the IGN article).
Colin also told us that the new system will more more simple.

In light of all this, I see it possible that not only traits unlocks will be account bound (hypothesis already made by several people, me included), they might also be retroactively awarded.

I’ll make an example of what I think could be a possibility. Let’s say that completely exploring Ascalon unlocks a Mastery point. Since it’s possible to track that kind of progression, maybe something similar, on a smaller scale, could happen with Traits.
The game already tracks how many mobs of each type we slaughter, how many players we have killed, which JPs we have done, which areas we have explored, etc etc.
It does seem to fit very well on the idea of a simpler unlocking system.

Obviously this is all speculation, but it’s not a hypothesis I’ve read yet.

From my personal TPvP perspective:

The overall objective should be to have best balanced game.

Problem 1: Core Traits
Do we currently really have a choice, where to put our trait points? To a certain extend yes, but there remain some core traits, we can never get rid of. F.e. if you want to play as a shatter mesmer, you have to pick ‘Deceptive Evasion’.
Specially for new players this adds to the complexity, because they first need to discover this core traits. Without them, they’ll for sure not have as much as fun in a pvp match as without them.

Problem 2: Build diversity / Supporting different play styles
Most professions have one to-go build, at the maximum two.
Since every trait is open for every play style, we don’t have the option to change specific traits for one play style f.e. berserker shatter without also influencing every other playstyle f.e. condition shatter or soldier phantasm. Is the turret damage from an engineer fine when playing berserker, but while playing defensive too high?

Problem 3: Not knowing what the opponent is playing
If you know what your opponents are playing, it gives you an advantage. Is your opponent playing power ranger or condition? Is the ele fresh air? (If you are not playing with a 5-man-premade it would also help to know what your teammates are playing).
Counter-play is already happening, and the only other option to prevent that, is to completely deny the knowledge against which professions your are playing. While this is a viable option, it does not work for the tournaments. We have seen in the latest tournament player changing to thief to counter-pick mesmer.
Personally I think this should remain a viable option, but should be extended further to include the rough knowledge of the opponents playstyle, to give you the option to change profession / traits / utilities if needed (maybe pick up anohter condi remove?).

Suggestion
The first time I heard about specializations I hoped they would solve this problem.
Every profession should have to first choose between different playstyles.
F.e. a Necromancer could choose between a condition-heave terror mancer; a minion-master; a well-summoner; a shroud-warrior; or maybe a support focused dark medic.
After selecting the specialization he still has access to some trait he can choose from. But they are balanced specifically for a certain playstyle in mind.

While I understand the intention of having a new thread to discuss the new direction for the traits revamp, whatever it may be, we have no details to discuss beyond what we already know, which isn’t much of anything.

The only thing I can see that this new thread has accomplished, is that the thread age has been ‘reset’. So we can no longer see/track that it has been ~10 months since this awful traits system has been live.

**Note: This is the third complete re-write as the prior versions were filled with far too much vitriol.

Speculation.

This is now what this thread is being reduced to as per Anet. Speculation of the “new system” that was hinted at by Colin. Sorry, the new “simpler” system hinted at by Colin. OK, I’ll bite.

Let me throw out some speculation based on Anet’s actions thus far and based on the info provided to us thus far regarding HoT. Currently, if Anet cannot get us any real dates for when we might be hearing any details about the trait update then that puts us exactly where we were when we were all asking for info regarding precursor crafting ages ago. A whole lot of, “we are working on something, but need to work out some details so can’t really talk about it”. Well, let’s continue the speculation then: if that was the general party line about the precursor crafting back then, and now the only way to access it is going to be by buying the xpac, then would it be safe to speculate that we also won’t see the trait change until after the xpac drops? Obviously Anet won’t do something as silly as make us pay for it as its a core game mechanic and doing so would probably kill a large portion of their player base, but what is their impetuous for getting it live before HoT? This is especially true if it has anything to do with the new mechanics being added into the game via HoT. If the trait update is still in the “getting worked on” phase and we are being told to simply speculate on it that logically means they have nothing to show us/share with us for some time (as has been their M.O.) so can we at least be told (honestly) if Anet doesn’t plan on dropping the update until after HoT’s release?

Its a pretty straight forward question. Can we get an answer to that?

See, at the end of the day that prior thread COULD HAVE been a great place to dialog with us. It could have been a great place to show which feedback was being considered and why, and why others might not have been. It could have been a great exchange of ideas. Instead, Anet leveraged things we said in there to guide the new content for the xpac (which I understand keeping close to your vest so i don’t fault any of that), but at the same time not ONCE went in there and said “hey we are definitely working on something to hopefully replace this system and once we can we will give you more details on this new system.” instead we got a post that sort of said that, followed by a post after HoT was announced that said, “hey we are definitely working on something to hopefully replace this system and once we can we will give you more details on this new system.” O.o

So, in essence we were told quite literally, no new information. Nothing. Not, hey we have something almost completed and look for an update in X window/time frame. Now if we are to take Anet’s policy on communication into consideration here this basically means that there is nothing of real substance here to talk about with us, since if there was, they’d be able to commit to a date to at least talk about it in detail with us. Seriously. Since April. After suggestions made literally helped guide the direction of these new systems in some way, and there STILL isn’t a concrete bit of info you all are willing to share?!

To say consumer confidence has been damaged would be an understatement. We are tired of speculation. We are tired of suggesting things. We want to actually discuss something of substance and frankly this thread just serves to yank us along by our chain some more.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Leo G.4501:

That all said, I still feel there are so many flaws with the system. For one, if an even is already done you’re pretty much forced to wait for it to be restarted to get the credit for the trait and without outside resources, that can be a huge roadblock. For two, SOOOOOO many times have I discovered that an even to unlock a trait I wanted was bugged and would not proceed. Bad.

Another valuable set of insights. Thanks, Leo.

azizul.8469:

easy fix :

GW2 already have soooo many group events. make them events that grant certain trait.

I like that you’re thinking outside the box and offering constructive suggestions. Thanks!

… but there are already ones that requires a (group) event to unlock. They tend to be the problematic ones because of the issues Leo mentioned. Sure an event is faster than map completion(assuming you don’t have to stand around waiting 30m-2h for the event) or some of the other types but a broken event is an impassable roadblock. Fixing the events would be nice but we already see how well that is going.

Vayne.8563:

Halvorn.9831:

Vayne.8563:

The 50% of the people who haven’t looked twice at their trait screen since launch. I remember one of the devs saying something about how many people NEVER looked at a trait screen. It was an amazing number.

You surely are with me when I am saying that a solution to this problem cannot be to make acquiring these traits even more of an effort.

Having said that I think the direction of this discussion is somewhat misleading. It is not important whether an absolute majority of players do or don’t like this system. Those who don’t even care for traits at all, are they the target audience?

What about those who care of the traits? Do you think there is a tendency how they think of the current trait system?

Actually, you haven’t been following the conversation if you think I’m for the new trait system, because I’m not. I’ve never been. I’ve been vocally against it.

But then someone comes along and starts saying how 10 months is a long time and Anet doesn’t care about the game, or whatever today’s attack is and I think…10 months really isn’t that long in programming, particularly for something that doesn’t have a major affect on most players.

I’m not saying it doesn’t need to be changed. I’m saying that it’s unreasonable to expect the to have run right out and changed it.

There are many small changes they could have done to make it more bearable until they are ready to release the new new system. Things like remove the skill point cost and reduce the gold cost or attached the tasks to unlock traits to better suited traits. They have done absolutely nothing in over 6 months to better the current system and extremely little in the few months between going live and the 6 months of nothing. One person could have easily updated one tasks per week. They are trigger events in the code that have already been written. For some of the tasks it would be as easy as replacing a few words in some if then statements. The fact that arenanet keeps on implementing new systems and design changes and then does almost nothing to support them is appalling.

My point is there is much they could have done and little that has been done. It will be over year by the time the trait system is changed and we have no information on if it will be better or worse and people will have been stuck with a crappy system which gets even crappier support for all of that time. You can say it doesn’t majorly affect people but you are wrong. This is a poison that is slowly killing the game. If any of these current system and design changes had improved their retention then they wouldn’t be redoing the system again. Obviously it affected their bottom line enough that they are changing it again and that means it must be affecting tons of people in a negative way. I am a huge proponent of correlation does not equal causation but in this case I think it does.

i have only one question for gaile, do you know when an article is gonna be posted about specialization?
i find it kinda pathetic to discuss a system we know little to nothing about while ppl make claims no one can really know, before worry becomes rumors, it’s better to show the facts before things get out of hand.

My two cents on the issue of the traits.

I like the concept of unlocking certain traits through active world participation. However I feel like that should have been limited to a handful of end game traits. This would have allowed for the requirements to be much more difficult while not burning people out because if you do it the long way you would need to, as of now, unlock dozens of traits first.

Secondly I dislike how they work with the new leveling system and the system in general. I just purchased the game for my girlfriend but since I hadn’t leveled a new character in such a long time I had no idea that it had changed.

She was immediately turned off to it as a long time MMO player and felt that it was “dumbed down” and she didn’t understand why the full game was level gated. I was telling her all this amazing stuff she could do but turns out first she had to grind levels.

This matters because, to me, the leveling change was to streamline it and make it simpler but the traits runs counter intuitive to this. Its more complicated and requires double checking and tracking to make sure you unlock the ones you want and need. So on the one hand you are removing barriers to entry (albeit perhaps frustrating new but seasoned MMO players like my girlfriend) but with the traits you have in a way increased the barriers by making it one more new system to learn while the previous one pretty much functioned on its own.

TL;DR the traits system doesn’t seem inline with your current trajectory regarding barriers to entry. The whole system would work better as an end game addition but not for the first 80 levels.

My hope is that we return to something akin to the original where for at least the first few dozen levels they are automatically unlocked and perhaps a system similar to the current one for a new tier of “Elite” traits or something.

Maybe that’s it? Set up a new tier of Elite skills that unlock past 80 but are disabled during WvW or PvP?

Idk just my two cents.

So, its Tuesday and I periodically hit the news section to see what information might be pertinent for a possible patch tuesday and I see:

• New stuff in the store (yay?)
• Tournament stuff (yay?)
• More stuff about HoT to get your blood pumping for the new xpac! (yay i guess)

So, as was asked by others: Any real word when we might get more info in “deep dive” format for Specializations, and more pertinent to THIS thread, the new simplified traits system that is supposed to mesh better with these new progression systems to be implemented with HoT?

I mean sure, it was neat seeing the dinosaurs. Great. I’d love to see them in game someday. I’d love to pay for HoT. Problem is Anet isn’t doing much to make me want to part with it. So, any (real) info about the things we’ve been asking about since April of last year?

rapthorne.7345:

With respect, no information was actually shared other than something may in some way change with HoT. Ambiguous information is often more frustrating than none at all.

Pretty much this. The more information is what we already knew, so nothing.

To me it seems you will have to spend some points in masteries to get to unlock specializations (pure speculation on my part of course). It will be interesting to see if that is the case. To me it wouldn’t make much sense to let players unlock specializations before having all core traits unlocked. Specializations will open up new traits but lock others so the synergy between traits isn’t too powerful and so Anet can better balance the classes. So it would not make sense to me if they let us specialize without having the traits that a certain specialization will allow you to have. Furthermore no where have they said only HoT would have access to the new trait system. One thing they have said is that you will earn mastery points as you are playing even if you are not 80 in the areas we have access to now. Given that information I am assuming we all will have access to masteries and to the new trait system but you just won’t have any of the traits or masteries that can only be unlocked in HoT. Only time will tell.

There is no way that Anet will lock out QoL improvements that involve traits to the rest of the players if they don’t purchase HoT. Traits are a major part of character progression so they are definitely going to make improvements over all areas of the game. Also it would not make sense to add even more complexity to the game by having two different trait systems. With specializations they have to do almost a complete rework of the trait system for it to work and continue to work with their idea of progression. They have said they now have a clear vision of how they want to do advance the game’s character progression systems in PvE. One thing we can do is we can discuss how we would like the new trait system to work with their vision.

@Lyrael: Unfortunately no, we can’t discuss that since that involves them also taking part in that discussion which they won’t do. They haven’t done so in the past. The most we can do now is essentially shut our mouths until they spring the update on us with no forewarning or hope they leak a small amount of info on it and then they hope that will be enough for us to agree to continue on.

Also, I refuse to give Anet enough credit about not locking something like the trait update behind a paid feature update at this point. I will only believe it once i see it. Anything, including locking it, is on the table as far as I can tell. (Mind you, this is just me speculating based solely on Anets actions and words up until this point. I’d LOVE to be proven wrong by Anet on this front though.)

To the persons complaining about useless traits, it’s important to remember that the current meta is not the meta of the past nor the meta of the future.

Leaving a pool of options, even if some of them are a bit odd or nìche, makes a good environment for players to experiment with new ideas.

You used to see a lot of heartseeker thieves in PvP, now it’s a bunch of S/D thieves with the exact same build. In another 6 months thieves could be running something totally different.

The meta is always changing, and a pool of extra skills makes transforming the meta natural and interesting.

Seamus.9645:

I like the concept of unlocking certain traits through active world participation. However I feel like that should have been limited to a handful of end game traits. This would have allowed for the requirements to be much more difficult while not burning people out because if you do it the long way you would need to, as of now, unlock dozens of traits first.

Totally agree; finding traits and relying on events to spawn/not be bugged is something best left to the higher end traits and a more seasoned character. Especially because every individual trait must unlock this way, ugh. But Anet knows that and that’s why we’re brainstorming here, so I guess my preface is redundant, heh.

I’m also disappointed that you no longer “learn” weapon skills as you use the weapons. This sort of “taskmaster” system is what I loved about LPC MUDs… you get better at skills by USING them.

Therefore:

A “taskmaster” system would be preferred either by trait group (an ele’s groups for example are: fire, air, earth, water, arcane) or tier (adept, master, maybe grandmaster).

So for a trait group example, maybe you have to perform a combo with a relevant field type to unlock that group’s adept traits (there needs to be much better communication to new players regarding combo fields, I admit that is my axe to grind). To unlock the masters, you have to perform so many combos or kills using relevant skills/weapons. You could unlock a whole trait group at once or it could be parceled out by unlocks for trait group + tier combos as in my examples (one unlock for fire adepts, fire masters, air adepts, air masters, etc).

If devs prefer pure trait tier grouping of unlocks, tasks might be a little more difficult or specific to unlock all traits in adept, and further difficult to unlock all traits in master etc. This makes sense since you’re unlocking a lot more traits at once this way.

Something like that, where you use existing skill types and weapons to unlock deeper trait knowledge. I also like the idea that others have floated about killing RELEVANT bosses to your profession. Fire elemental or ulgoth for eles, for example. Maybe some of those bosses could count for a few professions, idk.

Or maybe you collect trash items from mobs relevant to your class or just wrack up a kill count of them and exchange at your profession trainer. I’d like to see the trainers stay integrated and become more story-involved instead of just stagnant vendors. My ultimate dream is that they have a pseudo quest chain of their own in the game someday. I loved GW1 pre-searing and having your trainer be sort of an important figure to your character. Class lore would be awesome to integrate into this, even if it’s just a series of fetch items/tasks. Tedium is more bearable when there is an interesting element to tie all these little tasks together into a cohesive narrative.

Keep grandmasters (ideally just the recently added grandmaster traits and not the original ones but I concede that may be too much to ask) locked behind the high end events if you must.

And please don’t lock points behind level 30. There was nothing wrong with level 20. I loved spending trait points each level… it felt like a very tangible accomplishment each time I leveled up. I appreciate the streamlined grouping of 5 points into one from a streamlined UI perspective, however, and am unsure how to reconcile that.

TLDR: every single individual trait currently has its own finicky unlock. Grouping traits into larger unlocks and making unlock tasks more modest and relevant to what you’re actually utilizing in all game modes would give players some much-needed breathing room, imo. If combos are gonna be part of it as I suggested, it would be nice to see training areas implemented in-game as a heart like the dodge stations were (that was a GREAT addition, we need more rewarding mechanic-teaching content like this in starter zones). My ideal trait endgame is integration of class lore and trainers into the process.

How is the meta relevant to unlocking traits? We still have to unlock them to participate in the new meta and that is what the complaints are about. It also blocks people from experimenting with the whole range of traits since they won’t all be unlocked by the average newer player. Right now, I haven’t bothered to get more than a handful of accidental traits on my alts and when they are fully leveled, I will figure out which ones I want and just do the minimum to suit my playstyle. I really don’t understand how meta is relevant as a positive point in the trait discussion.

I think that meta argument was about other argument about useless traits.

You know – today X is useless, tomorrow it’s the king of traits.

Here’s what I’m hoping for traits in the future:

First trait point is awarded at level 15.
Adept unlocks at 15, Master unlocks at 30, Grandmaster at 60.
All currently existing Adept traits are automatically unlocked, free of charge.
A small fee or a chain event unlocks the entire tier of currently existing Master traits.
Grandmaster and any newly added traits will require unlocks. These unlocks will be account wide, flexible (as far as mode of play, trait selection, et al), and will not require backtracking.
The compass will have an option to show trait events, if they are not clearly marked on the map.

Leveling without customization is appallingly boring. The original system allowed people to dive right into the meat of it, and the constant level-gating is just stifling that, now.

Speculation (since once again, no suggestions past this point will mean a thing since they already have something supposedly in the queue):

The trait system as we know it will be completely re-done. About the only thing that will be similar will be potentially be the bonuses you get for a given trait line.

Outside of that I speculate:

• Traits are now account unlocked
• You will gain trait points that can be spent by doing content in the world
• Possible level shift of content to more relevant content
• Able to spend trait points sooner
• Trait effects might be completely changed to mesh with filling specific roles in a more general sense of support, dps, tanky type builds and try to build in synergy with masteries (if you’ve bought the xpac to unlock those)

But really it will be all of these things and all of the other things people here have said until Anet actually tells us what it will be.

Let’s just hope they tell us sooner rather than later.

I always wondered why Anet didn’t make unlocking traits just like getting skill points. For me the most frustrating thing was figuring out where I had to go. This problem was already solved; put an icon on the map. Secondly tying specific events to specific traits is what really kills the replay value. I think the skill point system of earning and spending gives the right amount of freedom. I’m exploring the map anyway being told exactly where to go is … heavy handed.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Schneider.8615:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

[snip]

I find his post pretty clear.

Hey folks,
“Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.
In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.
Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.”

It tells us that the new system will be simplified and following the trend of their account wide mastery system.

It tells us that specialisations need a system revamp to work traits and skill, since the new sub-classes will use new traits and skills.

It tells us that details on exactly how it will work are coming later closer to the release.

To me that says more than enough.

Yes, and as a basis for conversation, it seemed a valid amount of content to inspire thoughtful commentary.

I take on board that many feel the first thread was fine and dandy, even with ridiculous load times, redundant posts, valueless bumps, and the obvious fact that many people were posting without reading input by other forums members or our Game Director. Circular discussions and the same person posting the same opinion 11 different times don’t make for a valuable thread.

With all due respect, Gaile, I find your general tone about the first Trait thread to be quite negative. To say this constructively, if that is your particular view from someone in a Community Rep position, it is a strong reflection of what Colin, Chris, and whomever else must think.

Repetition was made because no one was answering the questions posted by your customers. Bumps were made because there was little to no indication that the thread was on anyone’s radar. It behooves me to think that the people in your office, including yourself, fail to see the cause and effect of poor communications —> community trying multiple times for basic levels of communication.

Anyway. On to bigger and brighter things? Traits 3.0?

It sounds like they already have a plan in place. While I am glad 2.0 has been kicked to the curb, how is the community in a position to discuss the new version if Colin won’t be more forthcoming with details? One of the points that has been brought up many times, not just relating to Traits, is that a lot of pain and grief could have been avoided if previews of sorts would have been given earlier. Many other games do this successfully, often on Public Test Servers, with the end goal being a smoother product and experience.

^ So this is my suggestion, for constructive feedback. More details sooner, so we don’t have another 2.0 fiasco. Doesn’t that make sense? Your competitors seem to think so.

maybe this thread will have a clearer basis for discussion after tomorrow’s bonus POI on their twitch ?

Did you see that last POI? Don’t get your hopes up.

Plus, the POI is about masteries. And Traits aren’t masteries, but they might be kinda like it, but they definitely aren’t linked.

Shaaba.5672:

Did you see that last POI? Don’t get your hopes up.

Plus, the POI is about masteries. And Traits aren’t masteries, but they might be kinda like it, but they definitely aren’t linked.

And although they aren’t linked, they sort of are, if you read what Colin had to say about the new simplified traits system. Which wasn’t much, except that it was meant to synergize in some way with these new forms of progression.

I think I just pulled a muscle trying to keep on top of all the PR jargon.

In either case, we are now all gathered here to speculate (or not, since you know, our choice to also sit on our hands and just wait. Like we have been. Since April. Of last year).

Thats the kicker here. We can wait silently or we can play a guessing game about a fairly serious issue to us that we just want real substantial info about, and even though something has been made (is being made?) there’s not enough of whatever it is that they can discuss it with us as per their communications policy.

All in all all this new thread then does is make it seem like there never was an 83 page post for roughly 10 months on the forums that never left the top three forum pages about this subject. (And yes i know that those enterprising enough can go back and find it to read it, but it means new players to the forums will never see that black eye..i mean, post.)

But please, speculate away on Traits, but let’s not try to repeat those other suggestions anymore as they’ve probably been said so much that its no longer constructive to read them again.

I think we will need to capture rabbits in cages to earn traits that relate to Queendale, and perhaps need to douse fire imps around Mount Maelstrom for others. I mean really, anything is on the table since all we CAN do at this point is…speculate.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Shaaba.5672:

Did you see that last POI? Don’t get your hopes up.

Plus, the POI is about masteries. And Traits aren’t masteries, but they might be kinda like it, but they definitely aren’t linked.

And although they aren’t linked, they sort of are, if you read what Colin had to say about the new simplified traits system. Which wasn’t much, except that it was meant to synergize in some way with these new forms of progression.

I think I just pulled a muscle trying to keep on top of all the PR jargon.

In either case, we are now all gathered here to speculate (or not, since you know, our choice to also sit on our hands and just wait. Like we have been. Since April. Of last year).

Thats the kicker here. We can wait silently or we can play a guessing game about a fairly serious issue to us that we just want real substantial info about, and even though something has been made (is being made?) there’s not enough of whatever it is that they can discuss it with us as per their communications policy.

All in all all this new thread then does is make it seem like there never was an 83 page post for roughly 10 months on the forums that never left the top three forum pages about this subject. (And yes i know that those enterprising enough can go back and find it to read it, but it means new players to the forums will never see that black eye..i mean, post.)

But please, speculate away on Traits, but let’s not try to repeat those other suggestions anymore as they’ve probably been said so much that its no longer constructive to read them again.

I think we will need to capture rabbits in cages to earn traits that relate to Queendale, and perhaps need to douse fire imps around Mount Maelstrom for others. I mean really, anything is on the table since all we CAN do at this point is…speculate.

You are reading to much into Pookie, let me quote the quote again.

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

I don’t see your interpretation there. I see “Hey we once again rethought the whole character leveling thing while adding in the mastery and specialization systems so we are redoing traits yet again.”

GuzziHero.2467:

I would really like to be enthused about the Revenant class but until/unless I know whatever the hell will replace the utter car crash the Trait system is in now, the new class can go to hell.

My sentiments exactly.

These days I am not even saving any Tomes of Knowledge.

Me neither.

I tried to make 2 new characters under the new system, got them to level 50-60 or so, saw how few traits I had and deleted them. Thats how I feel about the current system, I feel that progression is grindy and unnecessarily tedious. …

I haven’t created a new character since the new trait system was implemented. And I used to really enjoy leveling new characters. But I don’t need to actually “eat dirt” to know I wouldn’t like it. I also don’t want to buy a new character slot and reward Anet for such a poorly designed trait rework. I have no intention of buying the new expansion and getting a new character slot for a new profession unless the reviews are great and they fix this mess. The original GW2 was so much more fun.

Behellagh.1468:

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

I don’t see your interpretation there. I see “Hey we once again rethought the whole character leveling thing while adding in the mastery and specialization systems so we are redoing traits yet again.”

Yes, they are re-doing traits, and keep speaking about this new system in how it will relate to the the new things being dropped with the xpac. Not, “Hey, here is the new trait system we have reworked, lets talk about IT”, but rather “Hey we are reworking the trait system so it works better with masteries, specializations, etc and we’ll talk about it at some point…soon…ish. But in the meantime, talk about traits amongst yourselves even though we still have yet to give you anything of substance other than its coming soon.” Whatever “it” may be.

There has been literally nothing for us to even discuss in here. Anything and everything we might say is 100% based upon whatever crazy thing we can come up with and the ONLY framework we have right now is the info on masteries which is part of the xpac. That’s literally it. April of 2014, and to date all we have to even “sink our teeth into” information wise is that the new “simpler” system will mesh better with something in a paid expansion. Somehow.

Before I go into my on-topic post for the day, I’d like to share something.

After the direction the first couple of pages took, and the feelings a fair few of us had towards it, I cooled off a day and emailed the email to offer forum feedback with my view on how things were. Was surprised to find Gaile sent me a response back. Was a bit of a mixed one, in some respects. Perhaps due to my admittedly verbose way with words I think she didn’t get one aspect of what i was saying, and if it is appropriate (I have no idea of rules or etiquette for this), I’d like to offer clarification and further views on that particular point. Certainly if appropriate I would like to respond to aspects said, as it was a thought-provoking response and I believe it was a valuable thing to learn something from the flip-side of that concern.

Nevertheless, I’m grateful for the reply, and found it honest, and quite illuminating in the scope of some of the operations around the subject I approached. Seems on certain points Anet view aspects of their work in a much wider scope than we do, and I think that at times we don’t see the full picture, just as perhaps sometimes Anet don’t that picture from our side to. Certainly it has given me a little more appreciation for what Anet does in terms of communication, even though I maintain on certain aspects there is greater need to improve than others. Certainly thanks to Gaile for a thought-provoking response, and I hope no hard feelings on the force of my criticisms – I sometimes enjoy hyperbole a little too much, and it is born out of 10 months of frustration at this issue.

Approaching the on-topic side, I still struggle to see the point at the present juncture. For the following reasons:

1) With the closure of the last topic, and the announcement a system is coming Soon, it is suggestive that Anet have the feedback they want for it, and are fairly along the road to making it. Is continued feedback to the system needed or appropriate anymore? 10 months of it would no doubt, and certainly did produce a lot of similarity in the responses. We bash away at that because until we have more information, we have no guarantee that the feedback has produced meaningful and positive change. We are still in the void there.

2) Until we have the greater details (all the concrete things we have on this system is that it is changing), we can’t offer thoughts and feedback on the new system.

My conclusion is, as a place for feedback, there isn’t too much that can be given at this stage.

So will try for general discussion and give my wishlist for traits. Which is as follows -

1) Either account bound or a substantial discount in cost to buy, particularly with skill points.
2) More level-appropriate challenges to unlock traits (Whatever level it becomes, if it changes – having such a gap between unlocking a trait level and unlocking the traits on that group just doesn’t work.
3)A better way to point to how to unlock traits. A map icon similar to vista etc might be useful – one of the reasons I found traits such a pain with the current system was locating them – the information was there, but it was more visible, I think i’d be more motivated to seeking it out, seeing it on the map and think “ooh, I fancy giving that a go”

As it turns out it looks like some levels of feedback, but guess thats how it goes. I certainly hope the information comes out soon so the forward-looking discussion can begin in earnest.

Wolf, you are far kinder than I at this point.

I want information. Real info. Not a PR prepped blurb with nothing of substance like some kind of verbal cotton candy.

If there is something far enough along to actually tell us about it, then there should be enough to start discussing some of those details with those of us that have been wanting a fix since last April.

If there ISN’T enough done to warrant even that, then why even mention it as all you’ve done is set up another potential precursor crafting issue (and don’t even get me started on that BS).

The time for speculation and discussing what we hope to be the new system are frankly passed. Info on the new system, info on when we might see it, and more to the point are we honestly going to see it before or after HoT’s release. That last question in there, for me right now, is the most important of the bunch at this point.

Ok so here is one of my main Concerns….

Many of us have spent a lot of time and energy discussing Traits in the first Thread.
And there were many very good suggestions made, and repeated, and repeated.
Anet has reassured us a few times that they are listening, and that our feedback is valuable and wanted. They told us that they are taking our ideas into consideration.

Now, I know that the Mastery System and Traits 3.0 are not the same (I think). But I feel that it has been hinted at enough times to assume that the two will be similar and probably linked in some way. (why else would the OP suggest we re-read the Mastery Article in order to discuss traits…)

Now, admittedly, I didn’t read all 4000 posts in the first thread, but I did read a good bit of it. In all of the suggestions that I remember reading, I did not find anyone suggesting anything even similar to the Mastery System.

So after 83 pages and 10 months worth of suggestions and promises that we are being heard. The Anet team (presumably) comes up with a new system that was never even suggested. After all those “We here you! Keep the ideas coming! Your feedback is important to the team!”, we are getting something that I believe they have been working on the entire time. I also believe that the existence of that Thread was nothing more than a way to keep us busy while they continue to work on what they had planned all along…

If they ever decide that we are worthy enough to hear details about their Traits 3.0, then we will finally see if our suggestions were actually taken into consideration. At this point I have no trust this Company, and I truly believe that What ever new system they will be rolling out, was set in stone a long time before the end of that first thread.
And we were just fed 10 months worth of, “oh yea? you don’t say? keep going, I’m listening!”

Moody: One thing for sure made it into the mastery system and that was account wide unlocks to avoid grinding.

Now will we see that for this new traits system? Don’t know. Its simpler, so does that mean the old trait system is getting a complete revamp? Don’t know. Is it going to just be 3 trait lines now linked to armor type? Don’t know. Is it going to be some branching system that synergizes in some way with masteries and Specializations? Don’t know. Will it roll out after HoT releases so they can see how many people buy the xpac before rolling out the new Trait system? Don’t know.

Will we get a hint to any answers to any of the above? Don’t know.

But we can speculate I guess.

Scholar Fryxx trait is really difficult to get. I spent an hour and half trying to get it done and I don’t think I’ll ever get it done. This trait frustrated me to the point I wanted to quit. I know I can buy it, but I hate spending that much gold to unlock something, that shouldn’t be gated in the first place. As a new player, I hate this trait system. If this is what I have to look forward to with masteries in HoT, count me out.

Rather then speculate i’ll say outright what the biggest issues with current trait system are, so whatever the new one is, it’ll hopefully take my feedback into account.

opening traits at lvl 30 was a horrible mistake. That’s way too late. Think of all those players heading into AC and then wanting to do explorable mode at level 35 and up.

Before they would at least have 2 adept traits ready, which in some cases were real life savers (for example shorter cooldown for thief’s stealth skills). Now the gap between lvl 80 with traits unlocked and a level 35+ character is an even greater gaping chasm, leading to non lvl 80 characters being treated like 3rd rate runners by the max level part of dungeon runners, and sadly so – for a good reason.

condensing trait points into 5 point steps 30 points to maxing trait, with one awarded each level was a great system. Due to passive stat boosts it let us build our character’s stats with traiting and each level had a reward of one more trait point for a small, but meaningful stat boost. Our stat boost, one where decided where it goes. It was great to feel my condi necro get more “condi” with each level, thanks to traiting.
Now we got one trait in some weirdly spaced level intervals that once again start being generous near level 80, making lower levels lag behind far more then they would with linear progression.

If you want to alienate newcomers from dungeons, not leaving them even barebones access to traits till they get nearer max level, then you’re doing a great job so far…

Ps. and for heaven’s sake don’t even get the idea of “simplifying dugeon experience to match current trait system.”

I love a challenge and having options. A hunt is exciting when i have access to wide array of skills, weapons and traits, and by making intelligent choices and staying on my toes i manage to slay a cunning, powerful and tricky foe.

It’s not fun if you have your weapons taken from you but “hey, don’t worry, we pulled out the boar’s tusks as well, so it’s fair game”.

So if they actually simplify how we get traits, and, I don’t know, lower the astronomical costs of buying them into something that would fit into this stratosphere, are players not going to come in here and scream at the top of their lungs if they had already spent 43g and 320 skill points? This poses a problem, you see. It’s easy to go up in price, but it gets complicated to go the other way, after a year of people saying “oh well I don’t want to spend 30 hours grinding this stuff out AGAIN so I’ll fork out the cost to buy them”. I mean, I would be choked, to say the least, if I spend 43g today and a couple week later traits are free or drastically reduced in price. So, IMHO, price is going to stay where it’s at.

So what can they do?

They can still let you start getting traits WAY earlier than level 30.
They can “revert” back to buying books, but at much higher prices than in the game at start up.
They can keep the kittened up system as is and simply make the trait unlocks account wide.
They can keep the price, add account unlocks, but make specific tasks unlock an entire tier, or perhaps any trait at “x” level".

That’s what I see as options. Personally, I think it will be one of, or a combo of, the last two options. I can only hope they lower the level of starting trait acquisition, back down to say, level 15 or so.

Again, I hold no REAL hope of anything of use or value with any trait changes, TBH. I’m just trying to think on the box that ANet has trapped themselves in and how they might possibly get out of it without irritating a lot of players.