Traits system does not prone build diversity
I think sayig only 1 build is usable doesn’t do the system justice…..
For warrior I use an old shout heal build (non berserker), A PS/EA berserker and a Viper Burn Berzerker, Oh and a physical CC build….these builds are modified on the fly to fit encounters…. at least in PvE and WvW…..
In the end I have about -8- different warrior builds not counting armor/rune and weapon/sigil choices which tend to give me the versatility -I- need for content.
Metabattle gives a basic suggestion; but mindless cloning of builds might give you the unbeatable build, but it also dumbs down the game….and the players using it.
the fact you can use synergizing builds is sometimes overlooked in favor of +x% dmg multipliers…
The old PU condi mesmer is a clear example of a deeply rooted synergizing trait choice….
The build using other trait choices would still perform but it would be well below half strength compared to the normal build with max confusion application… using scepter/torch you can apply confusion with almost any skill and shatter…. this is purely because of traits….
I understand there is difference between PvP and WvW, but in WvW many builds hold value…..
The trait system tries to cater for PvE, WvW and PvP in 1 single system.
You cannot approach with a PvP-only set of goggles. This game is more then PvP.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
The specializations are great. I like how it puts you in a dilemma to see what you choose to focus on and you can’t have all the best traits. I hope that future elites cater to have more synergy between the less used traits in the game, which will lead to more diversity between players. This will lead create more build diversity.
There is build diversity. The issue is that players tend to just go with what is optimal which tends to be one build per class. There are some situations where a specific build is desired but in most cases, you can have a “one-size fits all” build that can handle most situations.
If players could freely choose which traits like before, you would still have what you consider an imbalance because players would stick with what the optimal combination of those traits would be for a build. The balance that you’re looking for is impossible.
exactly, the issue is people trying to impose the ‘optimal’ build on others., many would gravitate to the optimal over time, but they would be free to play with the builds as they go to try new things out.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
Excuse me while I put on my “Captain Explains Things” codpiece and recount history for a bit.
The original trait system we had was quite free form. Given 70 points, we were allowed to invest any number of points into any line, and once we had sufficient points we could grab any trait along that line. This would also give us status bonuses depending which lines we invested in. This system… was scrapped. Largely because Anet found in testing that free-form trait choice lead to the ability to make some seriously overpowered builds. Having no better way to deal with the horrible build inequality that would arise from the situation, the “adept-master-grandmaster” tiering system was made. This provide at least some form of exclusion along the traits.
However, all was not well. We still had to deal with difficult trait balancing, even more so since physical stats were still tied to the trait system. After awhile, Anet noticed an anomaly among player trends. There was a large portion (I can’t remember the exact number, so lets just say significant enough) of players who, quite frankly, couldn’t build themselves right. One of the most popular builds in the game was the 14/14/14/14/14 build, where players would distribute their trait points evenly across all lines. Back then, the system was designed so you would specialize into different lines, and it gave you a new trait choice for every 5 points. So players would instinctively distribute their points in the literally worst possible way.
After a horrible NPE update and a couple of attempts to lock traits behind achievements, the system before was scrapped almost entirely, and now we have the new specialization system. While the freeform point allocation could work well for players who liked to theorycraft or listen to theorycrafters, the system was too idiot-prone to function. The current system we have now was designed specifically to minimize the chances that a player is going to build themselves into ineffectiveness.
As much as I’d like to see the build system become more diverse, the dreaded 14 × 6 build problem still exists. Any complicated system proposed would have to either accommodate for the fact that players will use it incorrectly, or have to convince Anet that it is O.K. for players to build themselves horribly.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
The thread is open to the discussion. (if you like the idea, feel free to upvote the post. This will give a better visibility to the post and, hopefully, should lead to the changes)
You realize the old trait system SERIOUSLY did not allow for build diversity either. Like almost none? With stats a part of traits, you practically HAD to take the power line, whether or not it truly benefited your build.
And yet the best PvPers don’t use meta builds in their team builds. Meta builds are convenience builds, not best builds. They work well together with random pugs. If you really want build diversity try getting together a PvP team and working out a team build. That’s where the real diversity is.
Because the community is always going to find something they think is the best and people will flock to it like sheep.
Please no more reworks of existing systems. As much as I am not satisfied with what we have, particularly compared to GW1, I am more than a little tired of starting over againa and again.
Excuse me while I put on my “Captain Explains Things” codpiece and recount history for a bit.
The original trait system we had was quite free form. Given 70 points, we were allowed to invest any number of points into any line, and once we had sufficient points we could grab any trait along that line. This would also give us status bonuses depending which lines we invested in. This system… was scrapped. Largely because Anet found in testing that free-form trait choice lead to the ability to make some seriously overpowered builds. Having no better way to deal with the horrible build inequality that would arise from the situation, the “adept-master-grandmaster” tiering system was made. This provide at least some form of exclusion along the traits.
However, all was not well. We still had to deal with difficult trait balancing, even more so since physical stats were still tied to the trait system. After awhile, Anet noticed an anomaly among player trends. There was a large portion (I can’t remember the exact number, so lets just say significant enough) of players who, quite frankly, couldn’t build themselves right. One of the most popular builds in the game was the 14/14/14/14/14 build, where players would distribute their trait points evenly across all lines. Back then, the system was designed so you would specialize into different lines, and it gave you a new trait choice for every 5 points. So players would instinctively distribute their points in the literally worst possible way.
After a horrible NPE update and a couple of attempts to lock traits behind achievements, the system before was scrapped almost entirely, and now we have the new specialization system. While the freeform point allocation could work well for players who liked to theorycraft or listen to theorycrafters, the system was too idiot-prone to function. The current system we have now was designed specifically to minimize the chances that a player is going to build themselves into ineffectiveness.
As much as I’d like to see the build system become more diverse, the dreaded 14 × 6 build problem still exists. Any complicated system proposed would have to either accommodate for the fact that players will use it incorrectly, or have to convince Anet that it is O.K. for players to build themselves horribly.
Many of the old traits were also very crappy. The total number of traits might have been greater but the actual number of choices was not equal to the number of traits available.
(edited by Khisanth.2948)
Excuse me while I put on my “Captain Explains Things” codpiece and recount history for a bit.
The original trait system we had was quite free form. Given 70 points, we were allowed to invest any number of points into any line, and once we had sufficient points we could grab any trait along that line. This would also give us status bonuses depending which lines we invested in. This system… was scrapped. Largely because Anet found in testing that free-form trait choice lead to the ability to make some seriously overpowered builds. Having no better way to deal with the horrible build inequality that would arise from the situation, the “adept-master-grandmaster” tiering system was made. This provide at least some form of exclusion along the traits.
However, all was not well. We still had to deal with difficult trait balancing, even more so since physical stats were still tied to the trait system. After awhile, Anet noticed an anomaly among player trends. There was a large portion (I can’t remember the exact number, so lets just say significant enough) of players who, quite frankly, couldn’t build themselves right. One of the most popular builds in the game was the 14/14/14/14/14 build, where players would distribute their trait points evenly across all lines. Back then, the system was designed so you would specialize into different lines, and it gave you a new trait choice for every 5 points. So players would instinctively distribute their points in the literally worst possible way.
After a horrible NPE update and a couple of attempts to lock traits behind achievements, the system before was scrapped almost entirely, and now we have the new specialization system. While the freeform point allocation could work well for players who liked to theorycraft or listen to theorycrafters, the system was too idiot-prone to function. The current system we have now was designed specifically to minimize the chances that a player is going to build themselves into ineffectiveness.
As much as I’d like to see the build system become more diverse, the dreaded 14 × 6 build problem still exists. Any complicated system proposed would have to either accommodate for the fact that players will use it incorrectly, or have to convince Anet that it is O.K. for players to build themselves horribly.
I remember dem dayz, which is why I like the new system. They condensed the traits so you no longer have to spend a separate point on “reduce cool downs” and “improve damage” for a skill, etc. They put like things together and made it so players can be effective and creative despite their “career paths”… (am I the first to call it that).
In the End we’ll have 5 core & 5 elites specializations… Is that still not enough?
Excuse me while I put on my “Captain Explains Things” codpiece and recount history for a bit.
The original trait system we had was quite free form. Given 70 points, we were allowed to invest any number of points into any line, and once we had sufficient points we could grab any trait along that line. This would also give us status bonuses depending which lines we invested in. This system… was scrapped. Largely because Anet found in testing that free-form trait choice lead to the ability to make some seriously overpowered builds. Having no better way to deal with the horrible build inequality that would arise from the situation, the “adept-master-grandmaster” tiering system was made. This provide at least some form of exclusion along the traits.
However, all was not well. We still had to deal with difficult trait balancing, even more so since physical stats were still tied to the trait system. After awhile, Anet noticed an anomaly among player trends. There was a large portion (I can’t remember the exact number, so lets just say significant enough) of players who, quite frankly, couldn’t build themselves right. One of the most popular builds in the game was the 14/14/14/14/14 build, where players would distribute their trait points evenly across all lines. Back then, the system was designed so you would specialize into different lines, and it gave you a new trait choice for every 5 points. So players would instinctively distribute their points in the literally worst possible way.
After a horrible NPE update and a couple of attempts to lock traits behind achievements, the system before was scrapped almost entirely, and now we have the new specialization system. While the freeform point allocation could work well for players who liked to theorycraft or listen to theorycrafters, the system was too idiot-prone to function. The current system we have now was designed specifically to minimize the chances that a player is going to build themselves into ineffectiveness.
As much as I’d like to see the build system become more diverse, the dreaded 14 × 6 build problem still exists. Any complicated system proposed would have to either accommodate for the fact that players will use it incorrectly, or have to convince Anet that it is O.K. for players to build themselves horribly.
This could be summed up – sadly- to “Anet made this system because most people are terrible at the game”.
It’s really sad that we have to lose complexity because too many people would be incapable of building themselves.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
that’s why it is called ‘specialization" instead of “diversification”… the way i see it, it’s not meant for flexibility the way we would like it to be…
Cutie Phantasmer/Farinas [HAX] – CD Casual
Archeage = Farmville with PK
Archeage = Farmville with PK
I see that the proposition is quite badly received. Some points are however misunderstood:
I enjoy the fact that this trait system is not complicated to be used and also accessible from new players. The “trait merged” was a good thing, aswell as the disparition of stats associated to the “lines”.
What I blame, in revenge, is the fact that the traits are totally exclusive: the choice of one means a nonsense exclusion of an other. By taking example on guard traits: why should I not be able to take both the condicleanse on F2 and the hammer trait (virtues, master) ? Why is not possible to play with a traited scepter (zeal, minor) when playing meditation (valor, grandmaster) and still getting good things on virtues (virtues + dragonhunter) ? A lot of examples can be made relying on this exclusion.
As I’ve mentionned in my first post, something that will prone build diversity while still being new players-friendly would be: choose 3 minor traits among the actual 18 minors avalaible, choose 3 master traits among the actual 18 masters avalaible, choose 3 grandmaster traits among the actual 18 grandmaster avalaible. Or, more simplified to still get this idea of line: choose 3 lines, and now choose 3 traits by tier.
However, I fully agree with your opinions. I think this build-diversity is indeed bothering me more since I tend to play the most efficient build. There is no reason to change if it does not bother anyone else.
I bet Build templates will be a feature and part of the next expansion pack ,
….. so A.net can sell it to you.
They managed to sell the Guild Boons twice .. so nothing surprise me.
(edited by Farming Flats.5370)
The way I see it, the trait system isn’t BAD, but its still not great. When I look to build diversity, not only do I include the traits taken, but weapons and skills. Currently, with how traits work, its very restrictive on weapons. Basically, when you go down a line that has “swords deal +dmg” then you are going to be more inclined to use swords, and only swords.
One way to fix this is to classify weapons as you do skills. Instead of just using the weapon name, go by weapon type. Instead of “swords, axes, greatswords”, call them “Slashing”. Now people wouldn’t be forced to use a specific weapon, but can use any one considered in that category.
I somewhat agree with this. I used to have a hybrid build before the new trait system was implemented. When that was no longer possible, I died a little inside. Now you HAVE to pick three and max them out. Whereas before I could do partial trait lines.
“Nothing clears a troubled mind better than shooting a bow”
I somewhat agree with this. I used to have a hybrid build before the new trait system was implemented. When that was no longer possible, I died a little inside. Now you HAVE to pick three and max them out. Whereas before I could do partial trait lines.
Hybrid builds are still possible as a result of the new system.
I feel like we had more freedom of choice with the original system. The current one, where you only get to choose 3 lines for your build, is incredibly limiting, and therefore may lead to a lot of players having the same build as others.
EDIT: I also like how, in the old system, each line would give you more health, or more attack, etc., so that way you could further customize your toon’s build. But with the new one, we all have the same stats essentially, except for whatever is given by armor, weapons, and accessories. So what’s the point of putting points into those traits if all they do is pigeon-hole you and not give better benefits?
Server: Dragonbrand
Guild: Moonlit Renegades (Moon)
Highest-Level Toon: Markus Emmerich, 80 Human Scrapper
Guild: Moonlit Renegades (Moon)
Highest-Level Toon: Markus Emmerich, 80 Human Scrapper
One of the first things I noticed about the games I played was that there was a website somewhere that helped you achieve an optimal build for your role. And, those sites that report on the best players in the world usually showed that the top players all had the same build or variations to account for raid utility.
And, this is true in games that have evolved in terms of build complexity. Whether simple or complex, players (or algorithms) would find the optimal and everyone would copy it.
So, for players who want to play at the top of the game there will be little diversity. For the rest of us it is nice to be able to vary builds a bit without significant impact on DPS. One of the problems with the current elite specializations is that they are so clearly the winner that players will feel (usually gratefully) shoe-horned into them. I would prefer the focus to be more on fun and less on diversity though, since diversity for those who want something near optimal performance really doesn’t exist
(edited by Raine.1394)
TBH though there is a lot of traits across the board that need to be reworked/replaced cos they are just flat out useless in the real world
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Indeed, we need to choose between 3 lines, and one is already taken by the elite specialization.
“Side-grade” indeed.
I see that the proposition is quite badly received. Some points are however misunderstood:
I enjoy the fact that this trait system is not complicated to be used and also accessible from new players. The “trait merged” was a good thing, aswell as the disparition of stats associated to the “lines”.
What I blame, in revenge, is the fact that the traits are totally exclusive: the choice of one means a nonsense exclusion of an other. By taking example on guard traits: why should I not be able to take both the condicleanse on F2 and the hammer trait (virtues, master) ? Why is not possible to play with a traited scepter (zeal, minor) when playing meditation (valor, grandmaster) and still getting good things on virtues (virtues + dragonhunter) ? A lot of examples can be made relying on this exclusion.
As I’ve mentionned in my first post, something that will prone build diversity while still being new players-friendly would be: choose 3 minor traits among the actual 18 minors avalaible, choose 3 master traits among the actual 18 masters avalaible, choose 3 grandmaster traits among the actual 18 grandmaster avalaible. Or, more simplified to still get this idea of line: choose 3 lines, and now choose 3 traits by tier.
However, I fully agree with your opinions. I think this build-diversity is indeed bothering me more since I tend to play the most efficient build. There is no reason to change if it does not bother anyone else.
How can a Ranger who’s a Marksmen Grandmaster be able to have his Open Strikes always be a critical hit if he never learned how to do an Open Strike to begin with?
This is a progression of skill, so I don’t know how your idea is even possible. You might not agree that these skills should be arranged in there current order, but to say you should pick what ever skills you want or even being able to pick any master skill because your a master does not make sense to me and is not realistic. I know this a fantasy game, but it has to be grounded in something reasonable and believable.
I guess I look at this differently. I see these traits like College Courses or Common Knowledge. Each Profession has a different expertise, which, one would have to have the prerequisite in order to move forward. The minor traits are the basics that you would have to know in order to be at your level of expertise. Basically, you can’t graduate with out knowing these things. That’s like saying you’re a Grandmaster Plumber, but not knowing anything about basic plumbing…
Even if you’re talking about Major Skills… They’re arrange so that they are in area of expertise and in position of difficulty. You not going to specialize in one area of knowledge and then kinda know something here and dabble in something there, and expect to know what to do or how to do in something that takes a lot of practice or great comprehension to perform. This is the same as in real life. Everyone has their school of thought or their natural go to in their line of practice. I would assume that the typical peasants in the game may not specialize in anything or maybe one thing, and maybe the other NPC and our initial trait system would only allow 2 areas that we could be Grandmasters while knowing a little bit of something else… but the fact that our characters can now have three specializations which they can be Grandmasters in speaks volumes of how great our characters are. That’s like being a Doctor in three different types of practice.
(edited by VocalThought.9835)
The old trait system provided for just as little build diversity, the problem isn’t the trait system.