Trinity replaced with Duality?
Hmm I figure it’s more of unity (?? whatever singular form is).
This is because every person does everything, it’s not that you can do any one of all 3, it is that you do all 3. Everyone heals themselves, everyone revives, everyone does damage. It’s all roleless. As many argue, the only worthwhile thing to focus on is damage.
The problem in PVE is they try to make every profession having their own trinity, but not having the same stats. Some professions have an inherent advantage of high armor and DPS.
Hmm I figure it’s more of unity (?? whatever singular form is).
This is because every person does everything, it’s not that you can do any one of all 3, it is that you do all 3. Everyone heals themselves, everyone revives, everyone does damage. It’s all roleless. As many argue, the only worthwhile thing to focus on is damage.
They are working on rewarding those who trait for group healing/buffing as well. So eventually even players who are not glass cannons or DPS builds will get credit for being helpful as well. In trinity games the healer gets credit even if they never attack the mob, in this game we just need to same idea with variables that reward that player for effort under certain instances and through mechanics.
Intel i7 3.9ghz processor 16GB Ram 2TB HDD
Nvidia GTX 650 Win 7 64bit FFXI 4+yrs/Aion 4+ years Complete Noob~ Veteran OIF/OEF
http://everyonesgrudge.enjin.com/home MY GW2 Music http://tinyurl.com/cm4o6tu
Nvidia GTX 650 Win 7 64bit FFXI 4+yrs/Aion 4+ years Complete Noob~ Veteran OIF/OEF
http://everyonesgrudge.enjin.com/home MY GW2 Music http://tinyurl.com/cm4o6tu
I am my own trinity.
#TeamJadeQuarry
What do you think about this? Hoping for a good discussion.
(And sorry for my english)PS: If there’s already a discussion like this, please link me to it. I didn’t find it.
Maybe you were looking for something like this:
“A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
Hmm I figure it’s more of unity (?? whatever singular form is).
This is because every person does everything, it’s not that you can do any one of all 3, it is that you do all 3. Everyone heals themselves, everyone revives, everyone does damage. It’s all roleless. As many argue, the only worthwhile thing to focus on is damage.
They are working on rewarding those who trait for group healing/buffing as well. So eventually even players who are not glass cannons or DPS builds will get credit for being helpful as well. In trinity games the healer gets credit even if they never attack the mob, in this game we just need to same idea with variables that reward that player for effort under certain instances and through mechanics.
That certainly is an aspect that needs revision, but it’s also pointless to heal instead of DPS.
Why do 80% damage to a mob so it takes that much longer, so that you can throw down super weak heals that barely mitigate the 1-2 shot damage that bosses do. It’s all about dodging away from damage, which means you do not need heals. Spec’ing for heals hurts your party more than helps.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
(edited by Shootsfoot.9276)
I am my own trinity.
Or to butcher that Future Warrior slogan, “i am a trinity of one”.
In soviet russia, trinity owns you.
Edit:
On Topic:
1) I don’t see how you will be able to get back up again in solo PvE – does not sound good.
2) Doesn’t every profession have some traits to improve revival? Could be interesting though.
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
(edited by Rouven.7409)
Hmm I figure it’s more of unity (?? whatever singular form is).
This is because every person does everything, it’s not that you can do any one of all 3, it is that you do all 3. Everyone heals themselves, everyone revives, everyone does damage. It’s all roleless. As many argue, the only worthwhile thing to focus on is damage.
This is the way it is supposed to work. Too bad too, it looked good on paper. Eventually there will be a patch to add more support/utility efficiency imo, because right now the game feels broken a lot of times, especially in PvE.
Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.
I don’t understand the desire for Trinity. It’s a solved puzzle. It reminds me of Zelda bosses. “Oh, thing with giant eye. I guess I shoot it with arrows. Yay, I win…”.
Sometimes I feel like no one plays higher level fractals. While the early fractal bosses are pretty cake, the higher level ones require a level of strategy where you need to designate roles. Roles aren’t really based on class or build, but they are roles that need to be filled anyway.
For example, for Bloomhunger, I found it best to have some kind of melee DPS to take out the small spirits to remove the harsh buffs they give. For Captain Ashym (Ascalon fractal), having area heals and regeneration are almost required to counteract his permenent Retailiation buff.
Then you have your Guild Bounty bosses, and all sorts of stuff goes down. A lot of them, you need some dedicated boon stripper. Or maybe you need area condition removal (wells, fields, condition flipping).
Maybe Anet hasn’t quite figured it out, but they’re definitely making progress in the right direction.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
(edited by clay.7849)
I don’t understand the desire for Trinity. It’s a solved puzzle. It reminds me of Zelda bosses. “Oh, thing with giant eye. I guess I shoot it with arrows. Yay, I win…”.
Sometimes I feel like no one plays higher level fractals. While the early fractal bosses are pretty cake, the higher level ones require a level of strategy where you need to designate roles. Roles aren’t really based on class or build, but they are roles that need to be filled anyway.
For example, for Bloomhunger, I found it best to have some kind of melee DPS to take out the small spirits to remove the harsh buffs they give. For Captain Ashym (Ascalon fractal), having area heals and regeneration are almost required to counteract his permenent Retailiation buff.
Then you have your Guild Bounty bosses, and all sorts of stuff goes down. A lot of them, you need some dedicated boon stripper. Or maybe you need area condition removal (wells, fields, condition flipping).
Maybe Anet hasn’t quite figured it out, but they’re definitely making progress in the right direction.
1. Zelda is commonly considered one of the best games of all time. It is listed as #2 of all time on gamerankings.com and #1 on gamestats.com. My opinion is also that it is the best game of all time. It is one of the few games I have beaten more than once, and I beat it 5+ times. (I am specifically speaking of Ocarina of Time, though I do love all the Zelda games).
2. Having a little bit of strategy on only a couple of bosses at only high level fractals is silly. There are other dungeons, there are lower level fractals and there are open world events.
I would suggest the bosses need to do less damage on their attacks, and attack more often. They could do a reasonably powerful attack once in awhile which makes dodge useful. This would make toughness and vit more useful, as you would be getting hit much more often. As it is bosses do either attack often and use a crazy amount of damage, which means you need to be using Aegis/Blur/Distortion/whatever/Range, or you they do an attack every so often for a crazy amount of damage which means you need to be good on dodging. That means you either are playing poorly and die or you never get hit. There is no middle ground.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing. Let’s face it…it takes very little to gear up a character in this game. We need control…ok, I’ll run control on my Mesmer this time….we need support…ok, I’ll run support on my Mesmer this time.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
2. Having a little bit of strategy on only a couple of bosses at only high level fractals is silly. There are other dungeons, there are lower level fractals and there are open world events.
I would suggest the bosses need to do less damage on their attacks, and attack more often. They could do a reasonably powerful attack once in awhile which makes dodge useful. This would make toughness and vit more useful, as you would be getting hit much more often. As it is bosses do either attack often and use a crazy amount of damage, which means you need to be using Aegis/Blur/Distortion/whatever/Range, or you they do an attack every so often for a crazy amount of damage which means you need to be good on dodging. That means you either are playing poorly and die or you never get hit. There is no middle ground.
I agree with this 100%. Instead of a boss one-shotting everybody with everything it does, give bosses a few different mechanics with maybe a one-shot ability which can either be controlled (i.e. interrupted) or supported (i.e. healed through).
There just doesn’t seem to be enough of that. It’s more dodge…dps…dodge…dps…dodge than anything.
(edited by Shootsfoot.9276)
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.
If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.
Just a thought…
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.
If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.
Just a thought…
Mostly because game companies are bad at balanced design and Anet is almost Blizzard bad at it.
I don’t think I have ever even played an FPS, and I’ve played some kitten good ones, that didn’t suffer from the same thing where everyone had access to the same full arsenal but in the end it was 2-3 guns that everyone used because they were just plain better.
The more options you create the harder it is to balance everything unless you make every encounter a wildcard where you have to constantly change your outfit and tactics to win which sounds good on paper but won’t keep people playing long.
No one will care about a shiny, particle effect-filled sword if you can only ever be good with it 10% of the time.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
Mostly because game companies are bad at balanced design and Anet is almost Blizzard bad at it.
I don’t think I have ever even played an FPS, and I’ve played some kitten good ones, that didn’t suffer from the same thing where everyone had access to the same full arsenal but in the end it was 2-3 guns that everyone used because they were just plain better.
The more options you create the harder it is to balance everything unless you make every encounter a wildcard where you have to constantly change your outfit and tactics to win which sounds good on paper but won’t keep people playing long.
No one will care about a shiny, particle effect-filled sword if you can only ever be good with it 10% of the time.
I don’t know that I really follow what you are trying to say, mostly the second to last sentence when you say “unless you make every encounter…”
Also, the part where you seem to assume that the idea I presented would lead to more options. Although, more reasons to use the options than we have now is a good thing, IMO. Of course, I think the combat in this game is rather shallow.
In either case, I still stand by the fact that the problem with combat is the fact that I don’t see any way to end class discrimination without basically making every class be able to do the same thing as effective as the others – which means that the only difference between classes is the illusion of how they do things – not the actual things they are doing.
Therefore, if we want to remove class discrimination, shouldn’t we just remove classes and let people pick what “roles” they want to run based on the weapons and skills/traits they use.
Of course, that then begs the question – how is making one class have access to all the various roles in a game any different than a person that has all classes available as alts to them to pick from.
In which case, assuming that you would need to progress certain weapons and traits in a game similar to progressing your class – how is any of this different.
Which leads me to believe that we just need a trinity of rock/paper/scissors back instead of damage/dodging which is what we have now.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.
If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.
Just a thought…
Meh, I don’t know about that. In these kinds of games, everybody wants some sort of identity.
You get rid of identities, you just have a third-person shooter.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.
If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.
Just a thought…
Meh, I don’t know about that. In these kinds of games, everybody wants some sort of identity.
You get rid of identities, you just have an arcade game, in my opinion.
Well, I would much rather just bring back the same skill and class system we had in GW1 pre-Nightfall if I had my choice.
The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.
That is why berserker gear is so popular.
That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.
It’s way out of whack.
I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.
The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.
If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.
Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.
I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.
Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.
Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.
The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.
But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.
Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.
You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.
Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.
THAT’S what needs to be done.
All my opinion, of course. :-D
The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.
Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.
Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.
If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.
Just a thought…
Meh, I don’t know about that. In these kinds of games, everybody wants some sort of identity.
You get rid of identities, you just have an arcade game, in my opinion.
Well, I would much rather just bring back the same skill and class system we had in GW1 pre-Nightfall if I had my choice.
Yeah.
You’ve mentioned that.
A few times.
While I like the lack of Trinity and the ability for all professions to tackle all aspects of combat (damage, heals, control, support, rez), I agree that this creates a rather non-team-oriented style of play. Everyone takes care of themselves. They self-heal, self-buff, self-combo…there’s a serious lack of cooperation.
In dungeons, all you need to know are the mechanics. But I don’t see “dropping heal spring. blast blast blast” very often, or players calling their cc and making sure there are synergistic builds at work. An engi can say, “hey I’ll thow Elixir U for reflect on the 1st barrage. Who’s taking barrage #2? Stack up on me.” but alas, it just doesn’t happen because everyone just brings their own reflect and handles themselves.
Flixx Gatebuster, Orwynn Lightgrave, Seras Snapdragon
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
First: I’m impressed by the quality of the discussion here in the english forum (unlike in the german one).
I have to admit: Yes as it is, it’s even more of a Unity or as Jemmi.6058 said: " every person does everything"
And I don’t disagree with the idea, that every class can do everything. But I also agree that there are classes which can do some stuff better than other classes. Like warriors are king of dps atm. And guard is king of support (especially “wall of reflection” or “shield of the avenger”) together with mesmer (“portal”, “timewarp”).
But especially in dungeons there’s no need for anything else than that (I admit that I’ve only played up to level 27 fractals so far, so I don’t know about higher fractals).
I would suggest the bosses need to do less damage on their attacks, and attack more often. They could do a reasonably powerful attack once in awhile which makes dodge useful. This would make toughness and vit more useful, as you would be getting hit much more often. As it is bosses do either attack often and use a crazy amount of damage, which means you need to be using Aegis/Blur/Distortion/whatever/Range, or you they do an attack every so often for a crazy amount of damage which means you need to be good on dodging. That means you either are playing poorly and die or you never get hit. There is no middle ground.
100% of my thoughts! I don’t understand what they were thinking by making the attacks of the bosses that hard. Either you ignore them cause you’re standing in the boss, or you have to perma dodge. The “good and healthy” middle is missing.
In soviet russia, trinity owns you.
Edit:
On Topic:
1) I don’t see how you will be able to get back up again in solo PvE – does not sound good.
2) Doesn’t every profession have some traits to improve revival? Could be interesting though.
1.) How about making it so, that for every second you heal yourself, the amount gets doubled?
Cause lets be honest: At least for me it’s like running brainless into enemies and either kill them without going down, or going down and revive instantly because the mob was nearly dead.
There’s no “penalty” when you pick on too large groups of mobs. Instead you get rewarded since one of the mobs will always be nearly dieing at the time you go down (at least when playing a warrior and 100b all the pulled mobs).
On the other hand, it’s nearly impossible with my heal specced guard to do the same thing. Simply because the heal is too weak compared to the damage reduction the warrior gets by simply killing the mobs faster. (my warrior also gets revived faster because in downed state he also deals more damage).
2.) I think every class does. But unless it’s a minor trait that is included in the current build (like the “jagged horrors” when playing a condition necro with staff), people won’t really specc it. And if they do (as I did) they will learn how useless it is.
There’s no need to revive anyone “manually” unless there are no enemies that you can kill fast enough to revive him.
And don’t forget: By reviving “manually” you can only revive one at a time. By killing an enemy you could even revive a whole zerg all by yourself (theorethically ;D)
While I like the lack of Trinity and the ability for all professions to tackle all aspects of combat (damage, heals, control, support, rez), I agree that this creates a rather non-team-oriented style of play. Everyone takes care of themselves. They self-heal, self-buff, self-combo…there’s a serious lack of cooperation.
In dungeons, all you need to know are the mechanics. But I don’t see “dropping heal spring. blast blast blast” very often, or players calling their cc and making sure there are synergistic builds at work. An engi can say, “hey I’ll thow Elixir U for reflect on the 1st barrage. Who’s taking barrage #2? Stack up on me.” but alas, it just doesn’t happen because everyone just brings their own reflect and handles themselves.
I agree that this is a big problem but that’s where getting yourself a daily group for dungeons come handy, not only do you guys know each other, but you end up knowing their build/their playstyle. With my daily group I play a Guardian hammer, because we have an ele, and 2 warrior, this way I can constantly give protection/stability to the warrior who DPS while giving them constant regen, but the ele use field attack for me to blast in. It’s all about communication, which doesn’t happen too much in PUG.