Understanding "Gear Progression"

Understanding "Gear Progression"

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

Yes, yes, ArenaNet’s bringing out another tier of armor, hereby retracting their belief that gear progression is evil. Let’s all huddle together and cry ourselves to sleep.

No, wait. Let’s not.

Instead, let’s have a look at how gear progression has been employed, rather than what it is.

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding (nicer term here would be “playing the game”) . How most MMORPG employ these progression in the past though, is by separating these two progression into two category – PVE, and PVP .

The most recent title which follows such system is SWTOR, which requires you to grind dungeon for a set of PVE gear, and then PVP for a set of PVP gear. Most free-to-play titles also follow this format because it’s a well established design dated all the way back to the nineties.

The key word here is Well established, meaning that player can instantly recognize the design, therefore spending less time in figuring the system out and more times on playing (grinding) the actual game.

Just because a design is well established, doesn’t mean it isn’t outdated and bad, though. People hate gear progression. They hate it to the point when lose shore is announced they talked about boycotting the new event and even getting a refund (haha oh wow…)

This all seem very strange to me; because there really isn’t anything wrong with gear progression in its entirety. Gear progression offers player a sense of accomplishment over time and gives you something to work towards as you play. It baffles me why such a brilliant design is often scoffed at until I look at some of the replies and realize – most people don’t actually have a problem with “Gear progression”.

Rather, they have problem with how it is employed. Here are some of the common problems -

For player versus player, gear progression kills the game. Player who spent more time getting better gear will destroys those without. This is bad. Everyone knows this is bad.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have this design, so crisis averted. (And yet baddies STILL manage to find excuses for their incompetence, whether it’s class or lags… i suppose that’s inevitable, though.)

2. For player versus environment, gear progression is bad because players with access to better gear is always going to be a preference in dungeons – but then this is inevitable.
The current Guild Wars 2 attempts to address this issue by making exotic easy to obtain, yet still people prefer to play with those with better gears. Most people is always on the lookout for an easy way around problems. Even with content scaling people still does it, and maybe we should just accept it : nothing can be done about this.

3. Again, for player versus environment, Gear progression CAN be a bad thing because if a certain dungeon requires you to possess a minimum gear or else you will absolutely fail, then you are denied that content and instead you’re forced to grind for these gears for hours on end.

Is that’s what’s coming to guild wars 2?
Judging from the information given, it certainly seems like it.
New condition that require special gear to resist? Check. New dungeon has this new condition in place? Check. Having to grind for this new set of tier in order to complete new dungeons?

if the answer is Check, then Guild Wars 2 has revert back to the well established, but outdated and horrible mechanics that everyone hates.

If the answer is not, however, then there really isn’t anything wrong with adding a new set of gear. If we can still enjoy the new content, complete it with relative ease without having to worry so much about the ‘agony’ condition and the need to find infusion gears, I welcome the chance at acquiring better gears.

Face it, new gear is always going to come out sooner or later. Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO. It gives you a sense of achievement, it prolong your playtime and it give you a reason to grind. In the future, when the level cap is raised, you can be prepared for new exotics that offer better stats than your current level 80s.

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

Long story short, Gear progression itself isn’t evil.

The way gear progression is employed in modern day MMORPG is. Needing certain degree of gears to do dungeon or to PVP is.

So no, I’m not going to whine about Anet adding more gear progression – unless I need those new gear to complete those new dungeons, and I suggest you don’t until we’ve figure out just how difficult those new dungeons are without the new tier of gears.

Cheers!

(edited by showatt.9413)

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Posted by: MrLee.6892

MrLee.6892

What a great, well thought out post! Thank you!

Also to add, they have also said that there will be 200 new recipes coming out for crafting. We do not know if this will include ascended gear or not. But if it does, then thats another way to obtain it and not have to do dungeons.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

What a great, well thought out post! Thank you!

Also to add, they have also said that there will be 200 new recipes coming out for crafting. We do not know if this will include ascended gear or not. But if it does, then thats another way to obtain it and not have to do dungeons.

Indeed,

but the limited amount of lvl 80 crafting node (orichalcum ore and ancient woods) prevents people from accessing these gears easily. If Anet could have mercy and increase the number of these nodes, the game will be infinitely more enjoyable.

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Posted by: thefounder.2074

thefounder.2074

who cares? who seriously cares…. if you PVE, youre going to be grinding some dungeon so why the KITTEN not grind this new set. PVE in GW2 is a faceroll. gear is so inconsequential. when was the last time you replied to a LFM and the leader interrogated you about your level or gear? me? never. not once. why? because Exp Modes are laughably easy and you can PUG them with everyone in Fine armor (blues).

anything that steps up the PVE challenge and thus, fun, is fine with me. bring it on. because PVE right now is pathetically easy… youtube “10minute CoF” or “7minute AC” where 2 players.. ya, flipping 2 players complete AC Exp in 7minutes…. lame. so KITTEN lame and boring. so yes… PVE needs deeper mechanics than button mashing, circle dodging, and im more worried that the new content will be more of the same faceroll than i am about new gear with SLIGHTLY better stats – especially since gear means almost nothing in this game.

(edited by thefounder.2074)

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

who cares? who seriously cares…. if you PVE, youre going to be grinding some dungeon so why the KITTEN not grind this new set. PVE in GW2 is a faceroll. gear is so inconsequential. when was the last time you replied to a LFM and the leader interrogated you about your level or gear? me? never. not once. why? because Exp Modes are laughably easy and you can PUG them with everyone in Fine armor (blues).

anything that steps up the challenge and thus, fun.. in PVE is fine with me. bring it on. because PVE right now is pathetically easy… youtube “10minute CoF” or “7minute AC” where 2 players.. ya, flipping 2 players complete AC Exp in 7minutes…. lame. so KITTEN lame and boring. so yes… PVE needs deeper mechanics than button mashing, circle dodging and im more worried that the new content will be more of the facerolll than i am worried about new gear with SLIGHTLY better stats. especially since gear means almost nothing in this game.

I like how you jump into this thread all guns blazing without having read the post.
As for your question “who cares”, you only need to go to the other post about the new content – the one with 2777 replies – to see plenty of people actually cares.

(edited by showatt.9413)

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Posted by: Jezath.7395

Jezath.7395

Look... Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is... Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

OP: unfortunatly by what has been stated from lindsey murdock, you will need these new infusions in your ascended gear in order to travel to the deepest reaches of this new dungeon.. however you wont need it at the beggining of the new dungeon.. This agony mechanic as you say will be very interesting, im thinking saome of the infusions will be a Heal tick to counteract the agony health tick

Tis not what they can do for you
Tis only what you can do for all

(edited by Jezath.7395)

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Posted by: thefounder.2074

thefounder.2074

oh ya, i read it alright. i understand youre ok with gear progression and so am i; if it entails some sort of fun and challenging content, anything that leads to a sense of achievement and growth of my character, i welcome it. but i see alot of panic on these forums about the wrong issue. and i wouldnt even call this progression because there is absolutely no gear requirement for any “tier” or dungeon in the game. just felt your post is perpetuating this panic, although you meant in an indirect way to deflate the panic.

and youre right.. my rhetorical question should have been phrases “why the kitten care..”

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Posted by: BurnedToast.3781

BurnedToast.3781

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

New tier between exotic and legendary with slightly better stats = fine (though legendary previously had the same stats as exotic but whatever)

New tier between exotic and legendary that has a REQUIRED stat that gates content and forces you to grind it, along with the suggestion that this is just the start of content gating and forced item progression = not fine.

It’s pretty much the exact opposite of what they promised GW2 was going to be about.

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Posted by: killcannon.2576

killcannon.2576

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

No one wants it “both” ways. What you are seeing are two sides of the argument. One side wanted gear progression, raids, they wanted WoW 2.0 in short. The backlash you are currently seeing is from the people who originally defended Arena Net and Guild Wars 2 from all the people who wanted WoW 2.0 . Arena Net will have to decide for themselves who they wish to have as customers, but you can see from other MMO releases what happens when you go down the WoW clone path. You can’t compete with them, so it’s best they stick with their original fanbase.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

New tier between exotic and legendary with slightly better stats = fine (though legendary previously had the same stats as exotic but whatever)

New tier between exotic and legendary that has a REQUIRED stat that gates content and forces you to grind it, along with the suggestion that this is just the start of content gating and forced item progression = not fine.

It’s pretty much the exact opposite of what they promised GW2 was going to be about.

Short and concise.
Nicely put.

oh ya, i read it alright. i understand youre ok with gear progression and so am i; if it entails some sort of fun and challenging content, anything that leads to a sense of achievement and growth of my character, i welcome it. but i see alot of panic on these forums about the wrong issue. and i wouldnt even call this progression because there is absolutely no gear requirement for any “tier” or dungeon in the game. just felt your post is perpetuating this panic, although you meant in an indirect way to deflate the panic.

and youre right.. my rhetorical question should have been phrases “why the kitten care..”

Neither is my intention.

I seek to increase the panic to a point where Anet would reevaluate their design, if the new gears come out and I’ll have to grind them in order to access a certain part of the dungeon. This is an outdated design that enforces meaningless grind and should have been left out of GW2.

However, if that is not the case – which has been said that it sadly IS – then the purpose of my post would be to deflate the response players have been giving. My post is written as a double edged sword that either add oil to fire or become the cancer cure depend on how this new content is released.

Things, however, really aren’t looking too good.

(edited by showatt.9413)

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Posted by: penatbater.4710

penatbater.4710

2. For player versus environment, gear progression is bad because players with access to better gear is always going to be a preference in dungeons – but then this is inevitable.
The current Guild Wars 2 attempts to address this issue by making exotic easy to obtain, yet still people prefer to play with those with better gears. Most people is always on the lookout for an easy way around problems. Even with content scaling people still does it, and maybe we should just accept it : nothing can be done about this.

I somewhat agree on the general idea of your post but I’m calling this one out. While I’m sure this has happened to some people, more often than not, no one really cares about having exotics (except when you’re doing coe or arah probably) but rather cares more about the class (which is why you WILL see /m that says “LFM TA explo pref war/guard pls”

I just find this a weird argument overall. How many times have you guys been denied access to even cof or hotw dungeons because “you’re not level 80 and you’re not in exo gear”?

Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.

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Posted by: Prothescar.7842

Prothescar.7842

Remove the bonus stats, keep the new ascended gear with the special situational slot.

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Posted by: Manta.7962

Manta.7962

Yeah well, as long as WvW doesn’t truly normalise gear quality, then yes, people will have a legitimate reason to complain since Ascended gear = better chance of winning.

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Posted by: Jezath.7395

Jezath.7395

Thanks for pointing it out for me. I appreciate it (its not sarcasm). I dont feel any content is going top be gated as you say burned toast. If you go into arah with level 10 gear you wont survive very long at all... This is what they are implementing in this new dungeon.. I dont think it will STOP you per say but it will make it alot harder if you decide not to use the infusions. With infusions being a mystic forge recipe, i think they are making it so they are easy to get not the other way around.

Tis not what they can do for you
Tis only what you can do for all

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Posted by: Flynch.6034

Flynch.6034

At the risk of repeating something i’ve said in other threads, the new gear is less powerful than your normal gear as it cannot be upgraded.

Agony is also not a gating mechanic. Guys, you need to read up on how the dungeon scaling works. You can do the dungeon fine without it, but as you repeat the dungeon, Agony starts to come into play.

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Posted by: Transit.4158

Transit.4158

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

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Posted by: nofo.8469

nofo.8469

Good post.

Yes you are absolutely right.

Regardless though, implementing any form of lengthy gear treadmill into a PvP game is a stupid idea from a design standpoint.

Basically arenaNet is telling the players that they are shifting the focus of the game away from WvW and SPvP and into PvE progression style dungeons.

Which is precisely why people bought this game, to get away from that kitten.

Implementing this is beyond asinine.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

It’s not just “something inbetween exotic and Legendary” if these gears has a stat that is required to complete a certain part of a dungeon.

You can have the legendary gear and still not able to do the dungeon because you don’t have the cure for agony, which is entirely dumb.

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Posted by: Webba.3071

Webba.3071

At the risk of repeating something i’ve said in other threads, the new gear is less powerful than your normal gear as it cannot be upgraded.

Agony is also not a gating mechanic. Guys, you need to read up on how the dungeon scaling works. You can do the dungeon fine without it, but as you repeat the dungeon, Agony starts to come into play.

As you would know had you looked at the picture more closely the new gear has the upgrade stats built in and all stats are higher.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

What’s preventable is needing a certain gear in order to complete a certain part of a dungeon, which is a ridiculous design and should be avoided at all cost.

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Posted by: Flynch.6034

Flynch.6034

At the risk of repeating something i’ve said in other threads, the new gear is less powerful than your normal gear as it cannot be upgraded.

Agony is also not a gating mechanic. Guys, you need to read up on how the dungeon scaling works. You can do the dungeon fine without it, but as you repeat the dungeon, Agony starts to come into play.

As you would know had you looked at the picture more closely the new gear has the upgrade stats built in and all stats are higher.

Against current available upgrades yes. There are a bunch of recipes coming out so i’m going on the assumption that some of those will add up to be greater than the Ascended stats. I just hope i’m not wrong, as i’m also in the ‘no treadmill’ camp for the most part.

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Posted by: Wintyre Fraust.6534

Wintyre Fraust.6534

Showatt said: Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO. It gives you a sense of achievement, it prolong your playtime and it give you a reason to grind. In the future, when the level cap is raised, you can be prepared for new exotics that offer better stats than your current level 80s.

There are many means to gain a sense of achievement in an MMORPG without endless gear progression; there’s just no way to give that sense of achievement to the WoW-clone player base without it. There are countless ideas in the suggestion forum for horizontal progression/variation where a sense of achievement can be provided while leaving the power ceiling alone.

For whatever reason, ANET just decided to cave to the power-progression players that already have countless MMO’s to play.

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Posted by: Sam.4728

Sam.4728

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding

I’m sorry, but you are just wrong. GW1 had three expansions and loads of content added over the 7 years it existed. You obtained your “best in slot” gear about halfway through the core game. Expansions never made that gear better. GW2 was sold under the claim that it would be like GW1 in this respect: skill-based, not time-spent-based.

To claim that “all MMORPGs have gear progression” just shows your ignorance.

There are multiple negative effects to a gear treadmill:

1. It makes old content obsolete. The rewards there are not as good as the new content. The monsters are too easy since they were balanced for lower tier gear. Thus, there is no reason to go back and play old areas of the game. Look at most other MMORPGS; the worlds is a wasteland except for the latest zone with the best new gear. GW2 was supposed to change that by deleveling you in early zones to keep them hard and a hard gear cap like GW1 to keep all end-game content interestnig.

2. It wastes peoples time. I spent time getting multiple exotic gears sets for my character so I could try out different builds. Now I will have to replace that gear. Why? Other people invested real money in gear that they can now throw away. Yes, it’s only a small upgrade, but if it’s not “the best stats”, then you will not be happy with the item.

3. It destroys diversity. If I have to upgrade gear regularly, I cannot afford the time to have multiple gears sets—and thus multiple builds. Instead, I will have to focus my time on only the most common (and thus least risky) build/gear setup. I was working towards several sets of exotic gear for my Elementalist so that I could try different builds as they came out (different builds need different stats). I did this based on the promise that GW2 would not have a gear treadmill and my gear would still have value in 5 years, like it did in GW1. Thus, I could try different things and experiment. Now, the cost-benefit has been shifted and it would be foolish to experiment on gear that will only last for a short while anyway.

4. It alienates casual players. Not everyone has the time to play constantly. GW1 was great in that if you had the “normal” armor, you could always team up with your friends without being a burden. Now, if you don’t have the time to keep up with a gear treadmill, ala WoW, you will either be excluded from groups in the new content or you will feel guilty for holding the group back. Look at how WoW players exclude people on the basis of gear scores! Not in GW2, please!

5. It moves from skill-based to time-based play. In GW1, when you got something hard done, you knew that it was because YOU, the player, had mastered the content. In WoW-like gear treadmills, it means that you, the player, spent enough time. “Achievement” of this sort is just hollow, and disrespectful of players who have actual jobs.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

2. For player versus environment, gear progression is bad because players with access to better gear is always going to be a preference in dungeons – but then this is inevitable.
The current Guild Wars 2 attempts to address this issue by making exotic easy to obtain, yet still people prefer to play with those with better gears. Most people is always on the lookout for an easy way around problems. Even with content scaling people still does it, and maybe we should just accept it : nothing can be done about this.

I somewhat agree on the general idea of your post but I’m calling this one out. While I’m sure this has happened to some people, more often than not, no one really cares about having exotics (except when you’re doing coe or arah probably) but rather cares more about the class (which is why you WILL see /m that says “LFM TA explo pref war/guard pls”

I just find this a weird argument overall. How many times have you guys been denied access to even cof or hotw dungeons because “you’re not level 80 and you’re not in exo gear”?

Having exotic gear helps increase speed of the dungeon is completed.
You don’t find people caring about exotic alot, sure, but it does happen on few occasions for harder dungeons like Arah.

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Posted by: Transit.4158

Transit.4158

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

What’s preventable is needing a certain gear in order to complete a certain part of a dungeon, which is a ridiculous design and should be avoided at all cost.

My point is, I thought GW2 would be different from the other MMOs.
I was clearly wrong.

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Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding

I’m sorry, but you are just wrong. GW1 had three expansions and loads of content added over the 7 years it existed. You obtained your “best in slot” gear about halfway through the core game. Expansions never made that gear better. GW2 was sold under the claim that it would be like GW1 in this respect: skill-based, not time-spent-based.

To claim that “all MMORPGs have gear progression” just shows your ignorance.

Failure to read the post properly showcase your…well…stupidity.

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level. This whole mechanic helps the player feels a sense of growth.

A game without gear progression would be a game where you are wearing the best available gear at level 1 and everything you earn after is purely aesthetic. IF theres a game like that I haven’t played, Lemme know.

Long story short, Gear progression =/= Endgame Gear Progression.

There’s a difference. Please read carefully before you attempt to showcase your own intelligence because more times than not it only makes you look like a fool.

(edited by showatt.9413)

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Posted by: Wintyre Fraust.6534

Wintyre Fraust.6534

Showatt said:

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

That’s why I didn’t play MMOs for about 3 years after I quit WoW. It’s only “inevitable” if a game company refuses to do it differently – which ANET promised, and delivered with the original package. For whatever reason, now, they’re going WoW-clone.

Even with the additional $120 I spent in the cash shop, though, I’ve gotten my money’s worth (445 hrs played). I just wish (ironically) that i had a subscription I could cancel to register my disapproval. Dang it!

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Posted by: Cenobite.2769

Cenobite.2769

Ahem. My response to discovering, moments ago, the new Ascended tier:

KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTEN…

(Season to taste.)

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: jboynton.7894

jboynton.7894

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding (nicer term here would be “playing the game”) . How most MMORPG employ these progression in the past though, is by separating these two progression into two category – PVE, and PVP .

I really stopped reading your wall of text here.

GW1 did not have any of this. It not only had zero gear progression but it was massively successful, unlike tortanic; which I saw mentioned somewhere further down as an example of why it should be done.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Webba.3071

Webba.3071

At the risk of repeating something i’ve said in other threads, the new gear is less powerful than your normal gear as it cannot be upgraded.

Agony is also not a gating mechanic. Guys, you need to read up on how the dungeon scaling works. You can do the dungeon fine without it, but as you repeat the dungeon, Agony starts to come into play.

As you would know had you looked at the picture more closely the new gear has the upgrade stats built in and all stats are higher.

Against current available upgrades yes. There are a bunch of recipes coming out so i’m going on the assumption that some of those will add up to be greater than the Ascended stats. I just hope i’m not wrong, as i’m also in the ‘no treadmill’ camp for the most part.

I agree, a lot is riding on the surrounding updates and how it is all handled. Right now I think it could work but the way the information has been released and the tone of that blog post leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: jboynton.7894

jboynton.7894

who cares? who seriously cares…. if you PVE, youre going to be grinding some dungeon so why the KITTEN not grind this new set. PVE in GW2 is a faceroll. gear is so inconsequential. when was the last time you replied to a LFM and the leader interrogated you about your level or gear? me? never. not once. why? because Exp Modes are laughably easy and you can PUG them with everyone in Fine armor (blues).

anything that steps up the PVE challenge and thus, fun, is fine with me. bring it on. because PVE right now is pathetically easy… youtube “10minute CoF” or “7minute AC” where 2 players.. ya, flipping 2 players complete AC Exp in 7minutes…. lame. so KITTEN lame and boring. so yes… PVE needs deeper mechanics than button mashing, circle dodging, and im more worried that the new content will be more of the same faceroll than i am about new gear with SLIGHTLY better stats – especially since gear means almost nothing in this game.

Wait…..you want harder content introduced into the game, yet want better gear to come along with it…thus….causing the content to become easier again…….

Am I missing something about your stance?

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Flynch.6034

Flynch.6034

At the risk of repeating something i’ve said in other threads, the new gear is less powerful than your normal gear as it cannot be upgraded.

Agony is also not a gating mechanic. Guys, you need to read up on how the dungeon scaling works. You can do the dungeon fine without it, but as you repeat the dungeon, Agony starts to come into play.

As you would know had you looked at the picture more closely the new gear has the upgrade stats built in and all stats are higher.

Against current available upgrades yes. There are a bunch of recipes coming out so i’m going on the assumption that some of those will add up to be greater than the Ascended stats. I just hope i’m not wrong, as i’m also in the ‘no treadmill’ camp for the most part.

I agree, a lot is riding on the surrounding updates and how it is all handled. Right now I think it could work but the way the information has been released and the tone of that blog post leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

I 100% agree with you on the way it has been handled. It’s honestly not hard to let the playerbase know what to expect in detail a few days before a large patch launch. Right now the mods are probably fire-fighting and anyone coming to the forums will also have a bad taste in their mouth.

If the ambiguity of the press and the press releases was solely to bring back gear-progression players into the game through intrigue with a vague mention of a treadmill, then they’ve dun goof’d.

edit: clarity

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Sam.4728

Sam.4728

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative effects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

(edited by Sam.4728)

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Zplus.4217

Zplus.4217

So no, I’m not going to whine about Anet adding more gear progression – unless I need those new gear to complete those new dungeons, and I suggest you don’t until we’ve figure out just how difficult those new dungeons are without the new tier of gears.

TL;DR But I suggest op to read about the new monster condition: Agony.

Spoiler: Yes you DO need those new gears to complete the new dungeons.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Norax.2405

Norax.2405

Face it, new gear is always going to come out sooner or later. Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO. It gives you a sense of achievement, it prolong your playtime and it give you a reason to grind. In the future, when the level cap is raised, you can be prepared for new exotics that offer better stats than your current level 80s.

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

I was kittening satisfied when I get my first obsidian armor. Plus my first tormented weapon. Plus my destroyer weapons. I don’t need a progresion based on gear, back to GW1 we had tittles to feel the progression, we had skins, and we lack the feeling that ‘this will be easier with the new armor set, so I’m handicaped until I get it’

Gear progression is BAD when mixed with pvp (WaR rr90++), and we have wvw here.
Titles and skins are my carrots. Builds and armor sets are my carrot to face diferent environments.

Gear progession based on stats is a piece of kitten.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Cenobite.2769

Cenobite.2769

Further to the above:

I’m currently feeling a strong urge to head back over to DDO. If nothing else, they’re honest.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: ThiBash.5634

ThiBash.5634

Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO

That’s entirely untrue. Guild Wars didn’t have gear progression and did fine.

The real issue here is that 99 out of 100 MMO’s use gear progression. People who chose Guild Wars 2 because of the lack of gear progression are rightfully upset about the fact that Guild Wars 2 plans on making that a perfect 100.

We don’t need it. We don’t want it. It shouldn’t be implemented.

If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: jboynton.7894

jboynton.7894

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

What’s preventable is needing a certain gear in order to complete a certain part of a dungeon, which is a ridiculous design and should be avoided at all cost.

You clearly never played GW1, the predecessor to this game, as it was a MMO and did not have vertical gear progression.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO

That’s entirely untrue. Guild Wars didn’t have gear progression and did fine.

The real issue here is that 99 out of 100 MMO’s use gear progression. People who chose Guild Wars 2 because of the lack of gear progression are rightfully upset about the fact that Guild Wars 2 plans on making that a perfect 100.

We don’t need it. We don’t want it. It shouldn’t be implemented.

I’m not just talking about endgame gear. I’m talking about gear progression’s design as a whole. If gear progression isn’t neccessary then we should just all wear lvl 80 exotic at level 1 and just grind for skin.

Gear progression is needed, again, as I have stated, because it gives the player a sense of growth. Guild War has a system where your gear progress for a while and then stop when you hit a certain level, after that everything has the same stat. This is also gear progression, because before you hit a certain level your gear still increase in quality as you go.

(edited by showatt.9413)

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: axiology.5807

axiology.5807

We don’t need it. We don’t want it. It shouldn’t be implemented.

That sums it up nicely.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: siepher.9408

siepher.9408

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

What’s preventable is needing a certain gear in order to complete a certain part of a dungeon, which is a ridiculous design and should be avoided at all cost.

GW1 was an MMO that did not have any gear progression nor did it have a level cap increase. many people like myself logged over 3k hours on that game. So no, better gear will not always come out.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: fixit.7189

fixit.7189

Here’s my problem; GW2 was touted as the grindless MMO where progression is based on looks only. That has since changed after this announcment. It is gear grind straight up.

Right now if I get beat in Wv3 by a true 80 it is not because of gear but because I failed and I should practice more. He was more skilled and gear had nothing to do with it. This is the game I paid for and whole heartedly supported.

After adding new tier + better legendaries, I will get beat and think…man, I got destroyed by a guy who does more dmg b/c his weapon is better and his gear has more stats. I better get grinding and or spend lots of $$ in the cash shop to get to that guys level, yea?

Is that right? Is that truely acceptable considering what they said all through out the design process? I dunno, man, I dunno.

(edited by fixit.7189)

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: MrLee.6892

MrLee.6892

I keep seeing this “Guild Wars 1 has this, Guild Wars 1 has that ect ect”.

This is NOT Guild Wars 1 people! This is Guild Wars 2! Change is going to happen, even if you like it or not! More people play Guild Wars 2 than Guild Wars 1, so ArenaNet is doing their best giving something for everyone to do! From the casuals to the gear progression players.

For the people who do not like gear progression, consider yourselves VERY lucky! You still have that choice to go back to Guild Wars 1 and not have to deal gear progression!

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: jboynton.7894

jboynton.7894

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.

This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Flynch.6034

Flynch.6034

Gotta be honest, I was hoping i’d not see this level of madness on the forums again, not after the Spindrel-Gate of Rift.

But here we have it.

Wait a few days and see what gets shipped and how it works. It’s really depressing though that with such little information and a bag-load of hearsay, most people decide to go towards the negative.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: fixit.7189

fixit.7189

Already said that legendaries weapons will do more damage. That is not good in my books when it comes to Wv3.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: axiology.5807

axiology.5807

I keep seeing this “Guild Wars 1 has this, Guild Wars 1 has that ect ect”.

This is NOT Guild Wars 1 people! This is Guild Wars 2! Change is going to happen, even if you like it or not! More people play Guild Wars 2 than Guild Wars 1, so ArenaNet is doing their best giving something for everyone to do! From the casuals to the gear progression players.

Posters are giving the example of GW1 to show that gear grinding is not necessary. And you are right, this IS Guild Wars 2, developed on the premise that there would not be grinding.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Sam.4728

Sam.4728

showatt.9413

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

This is clearly talking about progression of stats on gear at the level cap.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole. I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

I won’t be responding to you again. You blatantly contradict yourself. You will also only be the OP until the moderators merge this back into the mega-thread. :-P

I posted a cogent argument thinking that you honestly didn’t know why people were outraged. I see now that you are not interested in a real discussion, only repeating your position.

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: showatt.9413

showatt.9413

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.

This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.

The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.

I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"

Understanding "Gear Progression"

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: jboynton.7894

jboynton.7894

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.

This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.

The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.

I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"

You’re really not worth responding too as your posts are extremely contradictory. The mods should lock this thread as it will only descend into a flame war.