Understanding "Gear Progression"
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showatt.9413Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?
This is clearly talking about progression of gear at the level cap.
Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole. I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.
I won’t be responding to you again. You blatantly contradict yourself. You will also only be to OP until the moderators merge this back into the mega-thread. :-P
I posted a cogent argument thinking that you honestly didn’t know why people were outraged. I see now that you are not interested in a real discussion, only repeating your position.
I actually have read all of your points, and I have to agree you are pretty much right in every aspect. There are even some I never thought about such as “old content becomes useless.”
I would argue against this by saying that this is also happening to Gw2 atm, which has not yet created a endgame gear progression (but soon will be). People don’t go to lower level area because they simply dont need to, hence its always empty.
This is actually not something that’s induced by gear progression, or endgame progression for that matter. Old content will always become useless once you play through them unless an incentive is put there to draw you back in.
The only issue I have with your post is you attempting to discredit by post by generalizing what I’m trying to put across – that is gear progression as a whole, and not endgame progression.
For player versus player, gear progression kills the game. Player who spent more time getting better gear will destroys those without. This is bad. Everyone knows this is bad.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have this design, so crisis averted. (And yet baddies STILL manage to find excuses for their incompetence, whether it’s class or lags… i suppose that’s inevitable, though.)
For WvWvW we use the same gear as for PvE, so if Ascended gear gives better stats it means that all WvWvW PvP players will have to play dungeons to get that edge. I would suggest that Ascended gear rather had slightly worse stats, however with the option to put resistance upgrades.
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” -Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto; April 5th, 2010
What I get from the Ascended/Agony mechanic description: You can’t play against agony-inflicting mobs without getting the gear first.
“So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral.”
If you don’t have the requisite gear, no creativity is going to save you. As Lindsey Murdock wrote in the recent statement: “The only way to mitigate Agony damage is by building up resistance through Infusions, a new type of upgrade component that can be acquired in the Mystic Forge.”
Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.
A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.
No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.
Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.
I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.
IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.
Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.
This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.
The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.
I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"
You’re really not worth responding too as your posts are extremely contradictory. The mods should lock this thread as it will only descend into a flame war.
It only descend into flame war if people like you come here and reply it with the intention of flaming. Plenty of people are able to read it and understand what I was talking about – only a few seek to attempt taking things out of context and try to derail what’s at stake by poking at areas where I was using general gear progression as an examaple.
For player versus player, gear progression kills the game. Player who spent more time getting better gear will destroys those without. This is bad. Everyone knows this is bad.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have this design, so crisis averted. (And yet baddies STILL manage to find excuses for their incompetence, whether it’s class or lags… i suppose that’s inevitable, though.)For WvWvW we use the same gear as for PvE, so if Ascended gear gives better stats it means that all WvWvW PvP players will have to play dungeons to get that edge. I would suggest that Ascended gear rather had slightly worse stats, however with the option to put resistance upgrades.
I agree. This sounds like a better way to go in regards to new content.
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” -Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto; April 5th, 2010
What I get from the Ascended/Agony mechanic description: You can’t play against agony-inflicting mobs without getting the gear first.
“So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral.”
If you don’t have the requisite gear, no creativity is going to save you. As Lindsey Murdock wrote in the recent statement: “The only way to mitigate Agony damage is by building up resistance through Infusions, a new type of upgrade component that can be acquired in the Mystic Forge.”
Sounds like a terrible design :s
Looks like I’m really gonna have to start looking for new games.
showatt.9413Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?
This is clearly talking about progression of stats on gear at the level cap.
.
Lemme show you my original quote.
“As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding (nicer term here would be “playing the game”) . How most MMORPG employ these progression in the past though, is by separating these two progression into two category – PVE, and PVP . "
This is my original paragraph.
Here, I"m talking about gear progression in general.
This is you taking things out of context:
As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding
To claim that “all MMORPGs have gear progression” just shows your ignorance.
In that statement, I was talking about gear progression as a whole. You grind, you farm, you get better gear. This is the same reason why we don’t have lvl 15 exotic -
Gear Progression.
Somehow you take it out of context and put word in my mouth claiming I’m saying all game has endgame progression – where with every expansion better gear comes out.
Hope this clear things up for you.
Its pretty hilarious that you consider your own post worth reading while you couldn’t even bother to read other people’s carefully. You want to display your own intelligence and make your own post seem more readable by putting other people’s word out of context. Sorry it didn’t work out for you.
Thankfully I’m not going to say things like " I won’t read your post anymore.’ That’s just childish and as long as you have a point to make I’ll always read it.
(edited by showatt.9413)
The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.
I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"
I think I understand your point well enough and I agree of course the game has progression. Its not that this is a new tier, but rather the whole idea of the shifting goal-line that is worrying people now. It would be more accurate to describe GW1 has having a very short gear progression, that moved into cosmetic improvements and versatility (of collecting many sets) very early in the game. This is the system that most people mean when they say -no gear progression- and given how everything, including the game at launch, indicated that this system would be used in GW2 I can understand why many people are feeling quite hurt by this.
FWIW Most people are conveniently forgetting to recall that GW1 did have a very, very small amount of gear progression over its (coming up to 8 years!) life in the form of inscriptions and sigils, which were not in the game originally. IIRC basically an extra armour and weapon upgrade which were things I had to pursue when I went back to the game after an almost 6 year break. But aside from those all my characters old stuff was still up to scratch, and competitive in terms of stats and it felt a lot like coming home to find major renovations had been underway. This ability to drop in and out of the game without major inconvenience as time allowed is what a lot of us with busy lives really liked about it and for me the only real worry about this situation is that it could mean GW2 does not share this characteristic with its predecessor.
(edited by Webba.3071)
So no, I’m not going to whine about Anet adding more gear progression – unless I need those new gear to complete those new dungeons, and I suggest you don’t until we’ve figure out just how difficult those new dungeons are without the new tier of gears.
Cheers!
No you don’t need the new gear to do any dungeons. Heck you could run existing dungeons in really really bad gear if you wanted to. You’d just die a lot more. But as there’s respawn points scattered all over the dungeons dying doesn’t matter as much. But if you want to progress at a decent speed then yes, you WILL need the best gear possible.
And i have little doubt that sooner or later we will see something not that far away from WoW in terms of gear progression and dependancy.
You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?
Because blingy looks turn heads, whereas nobody wants to look at screenshots of your stats.
The “prestige skins” model kept people playing GW1 for a long time. Folks did all kinds of crazy grindy stuff in FoW and DoA for prestige skins — and other folks who didn’t want to didn’t have to, without feeling like they were being denied anything. WoW-style tiered gear is actually much, much worse. With fancy skins, your old gear never becomes useless. You just acquire more options as you play.
At the end of the day, a lot of the psychological validation in MMOGs comes from playing dress-up. The endless slog for higher numbers is clumsy design and causes just as much burnout as it cures.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
I don’t understand where all the people are coming from who are saying that gear grind is required to keep a game alive. Almost every game that has a gear grind and was released after WoW’s release pretty much dwindled to the point that all they got now are very small core playerbases. In the meanwhile games like EVE Online, League of Legends, Minecraft, and other similiar games are still going strong even though none of them have a major gear grind going on. Heck, even WoW lost 3 mil subs after they focused way too much on raiding and raiding only in Cataclysm, hence why they are putting lots of “horizontal” content in WoW like the Darkmoon Faire Island, pet battles and the new brawler thing. All of these things don’t reward any progressive gear, apart from the Darkmoon decks that is.
lol I voted 5 times already.
Ya that poll should be a fair assement of what people want! LOL!!
You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?
Because blingy looks turn heads, whereas nobody wants to look at screenshots of your stats.
The “prestige skins” model kept people playing GW1 for a long time. Folks did all kinds of crazy grindy stuff in FoW and DoA for prestige skins — and other folks who didn’t want to didn’t have to, without feeling like they were being denied anything. WoW-style tiered gear is actually much, much worse. With fancy skins, your old gear never becomes useless. You just acquire more options as you play.
At the end of the day, a lot of the psychological validation in MMOGs comes from playing dress-up. The endless slog for higher numbers is clumsy design and causes just as much burnout as it cures.
That’s probably true for many people. And yet what if you have obtain a desirable look at low level?
Some of the lower level gears actually look better than endgame gears. Once you have obtain these, there really isn’t any need for you to advance further other than getting exotic gear and then transmute them to fit the style.
Long story short, I believe gear progression in general is always needed, and endgame gear progression is also beneficial on the condition that you don’t NEED better endgame gear to complete new content.
I don’t care if it’s outdated or not. Anet said it would not exist in this game. It was one of their prime marketing pulls. It pulled me right in, I’ll tell you. For years they repeated themselves, over and over.
For those complaining about not having gear progression in this game, well that was clearly spelled out to all of us who have followed the game. There are other games which do offer what you seek. This was a game for many like me who did not want this to be a factor in my gaming environment. And, even if I don’t participate in it, it does spill over to all of us.
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” -Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto; April 5th, 2010
What I get from the Ascended/Agony mechanic description: You can’t play against agony-inflicting mobs without getting the gear first.
“So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral.”
If you don’t have the requisite gear, no creativity is going to save you. As Lindsey Murdock wrote in the recent statement: “The only way to mitigate Agony damage is by building up resistance through Infusions, a new type of upgrade component that can be acquired in the Mystic Forge.”
GW1 had spectral agony…it required armor infusion to mitigate.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spectral_Agony
How quickly we forget…
Here’s what people thought of GW1 when it first came out: http://tinyurl.com/bntcvyc
“A release is 7 days or less away or has just happened within the last 7 days…
These are the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria.”
“A release is 7 days or less away or has just happened within the last 7 days…
These are the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria.”
I kinda lost interest when the OP said there wasn’t anything wrong with gear progression. It’s not a factual issue but an opinion. Some people like it, some don’t.
A lot of people were happy about GW2 because they don’t like vertical gear progression. Now Anet does a turn around.
You argue that people should look at it because it isn’t inherently bad. Good or bad, don’t matter. People like things regardless of whether they are good or bad (tobacco, cigarettes, etc). The issue is, do you like this approach or not.
It’s a big dividing issue and many players stopped playing MMOs because of it…and started GW2 because of the lack thereof. This changes all of that.
I could tell you that I don’t like to eat fish. Is fish bad or evil? No. But I still don’t want to eat it. When I go to a steak restaurant and they serve me fish, I will not be happy. GW2 was a non gear treadmill game. Now it will have a gear treadmill. Time for me to find another game? Perhaps so.
@Vorch Spectral agony required infusion. But it didn’t require special armour. All armour you collected could be infused and still had max stats. There was no tier difference and it wasn’t limited to certain gear types. And that makes all the difference in the world.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
Some of the lower level gears actually look better than endgame gears. Once you have obtain these, there really isn’t any need for you to advance further other than getting exotic gear and then transmute them to fit the style.
Well, that’s the point: “need” is bad.
Having decent skins at various “tiers” means everyone can look good, but players who want prestige can pick up blingy skins to show off their wealth. Seriously, this is a system that worked for 5-6 years of GW1’s lifetime.
I have my exotic set. Now I do what I want instead of doing what will bring in the most cash/tokens to pay for my gear. This is exactly what the devs promised about “varied endgame” and it’s way more fun than the raid-of-the-month-style progression that other MMOGs pursue.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
There is no sense of achievement if the goal is constantly moving. If you ran a 10 mile run and got to the finishing line, felt happy for a minute, then a guy comes and says “you havent finished yet, we just updated the race cus too many people finished early and got bored, the finishing line is now 2 miles up the road”, how would you feel?
Those people that finish early can go do another race for god’s sake, don’t penlise us slow pokes.
(Those people that have maxed all their armour and are bored (hardcore people with a lot of free time), can go make new sets of armour in different skins, not higher stats)
GW1 had spectral agony…it required armor infusion to mitigate.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spectral_Agony
How quickly we forget…
Infusion in Guild Wars 1 was a plot device in the Prophecies campaign. Up until a certain point, Mursaat killed you when they saw you, and then after a certain cutscene, they didn’t anymore. It was a one-time deal, unless you bought an entirely new set of armour, and the process of becoming Infused was built into the game’s story.
It was also not a particularly good mechanic, because you had to go do it again for no good reason if you changed your armour, instead of it simply being a plot flag to begin with.
This is in huge contrast to how Infusion is being planned in Guild Wars 2. To get Infused, you need to:
1) Find Ascended equipment, as nothing else has an Infusion ‘slot’. Ascended equipment is described as being “intermediate” in rarity between Exotics – which are already arguably too much of a grind to obtain – and Legendaries. And since the non-Infusion upgrades to Ascended equipment are ‘baked in’, you very well might find several pieces that are useless to you before you get ahold of one that you can reasonably use with your build.
2) Find “an Infusion” upgrade for your Ascended equipment, which come in at least three varieties (Offensive, Defensive, Omni), which supposedly come from Dungeons – I assume they mean tokens – and which have their own tiered quality scale (The ones described in the blog post are pointed out as ‘Fine’ [Blue] Infusions, meaning that there are rarer versions in the works that will be harder to get).
3) Repeat steps 1) and 2) for every slot of equipment that Ascended is available for.
Does any of that sound even remotely like the GW1 implementation (which was flawed to begin with) of an automatic, free upgrade that is applied to all players naturally as they advance through the game’s plot?
Let’s also not forget that when GW1 launched, Infusion was also done one item at a time. And even though doing an Infusion Run took less than ten minutes and there were only five pieces to Infuse (meaning less than an hour to infuse all of your gear – how long do you think it’ll take to outfit yourself with even the first three Ascended pieces?), ArenaNet quickly realized that making people repeat that content for such an arbitrary content-gating mechanism was a timesink and not a respectful use of their players’ time and effort, and changed it so that a single Infusion would affect every piece of equipment.
So, what I think you mean is: “How quickly ArenaNet forgets…”
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