Guild Wars 2

On returning to GW2 for the past month I’ve had a lot of fun in PvP and PvE. One thing that hasn’t changed if my disgust of the waterway play in this game. My only reference point for MMO play where enemy characters are coming at you in 3D freespace would be AION (AION has flight). I really liked how NCSoft implemented flying in that game but the waterway combat in this game works is very frustrating. Playing as an Ele I find it difficult to prevent massive agro, which underwater is followed by a very short evade (thank you underwate speed debuff). Perhaps I’ve never mastered the mechanics of it because I just despise it so much.

We work hard to master our standard (land) builds and build strategy around that and then there is perhaps 15% of the game that’s underwater play that requires a very different play dynamic. There is zero fun in this aspect of the game for me and while I’m sure a few players who love underwater will chime in with a rebuttal, I find it hard to imagine I"m in the minority. Bad design is bad design.

So moving beyond my rant. I’d love to hear from other players who hate or once hated underwater play as much as I do now. Is there anything that I can do to make this a more enjoyable experience. The map completion and hero points are something I need so unfortunately underwater play is not optional to achieve my goals.

Honestly I have a rather different opinion of under water combat although I still don’t really like it. I think it could have been really interesting if they had done aqua breathers differently. I think that either 1: they should be skins which are applied to your normal helmet on entering the water or 2: (a rather unpopular opinion) that they should function. If you don’t wear it then you can’t breath. There should also be actual good aquabreathers assuming they’re going to stay the way they are rather than only being able to get rares. In terms of the 3d combat I don’t feel as though it’s done too badly and some underwater areas I really like. For example the really eerie water in cursed shore where you can only just see in front of you.

BeckaPL.2670:

Honestly I have a rather different opinion of under water combat although I still don’t really like it. I think it could have been really interesting if they had done aqua breathers differently. I think that either 1: they should be skins which are applied to your normal helmet on entering the water or 2: (a rather unpopular opinion) that they should function. If you don’t wear it then you can’t breath. There should also be actual good aquabreathers assuming they’re going to stay the way they are rather than only being able to get rares. In terms of the 3d combat I don’t feel as though it’s done too badly and some underwater areas I really like. For example the really eerie water in cursed shore where you can only just see in front of you.

Thanks for an alternative opinion. I despise it so much, hearing someone actually likes it is intriguing. Would you be kind enough to share the class you’re playing, a little info about your underwater build/weapon skills and the approach/rotation you use when approaching a mob? If you ask me to give you these details for any land based scenario on the classes I play I could tell you. I can’t find a strategy with the underwater skills on ele. It’s just an awkward mess that seems to be unfinished. I would go so far as to call it bad design because that’s what I think it is. Bad design tucked away inside a game with a lot of great design going on around it.

Would love to hear specific strategies from underwater Eles since there seems to be a lot of love for this class underwater, yet it’s the one I hate playing underwater the most

My usual rotation for underwater combat on Ele is to start in Fire, blow all your cooldowns (except #2) first. Hit Fire#2, immediately swap to Water attune, use Arcane Wave at the same time as you’re swapping, immediately double tap Water 3 (gets you a double Blast finisher if you do it fast enough), then do Water 5. Water 5 procs Fire Aura and does a lot of damage, especially behind 9 stacks of might. After that, Water 2, then swap into either Earth or Air depending on if you’re power or condition based. Blow the cooldowns in Air / Earth and sit in those (or perhaps swap to the other) for a bit until Fire and Water start coming off cooldowns, rinse and repeat.

Can probably sneak Arcane Brilliance in there for another 3 stacks of might before you do Water 5, but I don’t think you’ll get the Fire Aura if you do that as I don’t think Fire #2 lasts quite long enough (unless you trait for longer fire fields, I suppose). Might is probably > than Fire Aura anyway, but personally I find it really satisfying to proc the aura as the timing is sort of tight.

I thought the idea of underwater combat was great and simply “realistic” to have in an open world. Unfortunately it was decided to not further develop the idea and balance the system but to move away from it in the past three years. Raid on the Capricorn – gone, new maps with underwater regions – nope, will it change for HoT – don’t think so(roughly remembering anet even confirming no uw content in HoT, can’t quote it atm).

I liked having it around and would have loved it if they ever got to make it on par with combat on land

…pls bring back Raid on the Capricorn as an unranked map…btw…

Also: What has been said about aquabreathers^^ would have helped a lot, even the “you don’t wear’em – you’re not breathin” part might have been interesting and not a big deal, i.e. not hindering players a lot concerning current uw content

Depending on what class I play as, it can get from annoying to “meh” to quite fun.

The classes that have more single-target attacks won’t be really appealing, sure. But then there’s the Ranger with some ‘ok’ underwater attacks, and there’s my favorite stun fishing bomb-kit engi Mesmer would fall about the same range as ranger and necro for me, while warrior, guardian, thief I try avoiding as much as possible.

Trying to maneuver and traverse in limited visibility though can get pretty tedious after awhile though, but same would go for certain maps/terrain. And I outright despise dredge areas and CoF.

I quite enjoy underwater exploration, design, movement controls and combat with each of the professions.

In fact, this is the only game where I enjoy underwater as much as land. I wish there was a lot more of it and that it would receive the development that I feel it deserves.

I was quite disappointed to see their decision to no longer release aquatic weaponry in the black lion weapon sets. Those were the main ones I would look to acquire from sets.

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mXz.4512:

Depending on what class I play as, it can get from annoying to “meh” to quite fun.

The classes that have more single-target attacks won’t be really appealing, sure. But then there’s the Ranger with some ‘ok’ underwater attacks, and there’s my favorite stun fishing bomb-kit engi Mesmer would fall about the same range as ranger and necro for me, while warrior, guardian, thief I try avoiding as much as possible.

Trying to maneuver and traverse in limited visibility though can get pretty tedious after awhile though, but same would go for certain maps/terrain. And I outright despise dredge areas and CoF.

If you remove all the asthetics of underwater play in GW2 and just think about the mechanics of it, it’s like being on a map where you are suffering with being crippled and you can not remove the debuff. What’s more your choice of weapon skills has been reduced to a single weapon set and all the strategy you generally invoke on land using the terrain for tactical purposes is completely lost. Combine that with enemies coming at you from all directions, skills you are forced to use that pull and agro those enemies and the factor in the visibility problems. It’s play mechanics take away much control of the player and leave a lot to random.

I have two level 80s, I’ve done all the dungeon paths at least once. I’m nearing Slayer title in sPvP. I’m nowhere near the most active in this game, but I have been around it and I understand the core play mechanics and I find the fun intended. It’s absent underwater. A player should not go from loving the game to hating it and feeling dread and hopelessness and the inability to invoke any strategy to improve the situation, yet that has been my underwater experience. I suppose some simply find the novelty of the underwater aesthetics enough to find the fun and they brush aside the very real tangible problems with the shift in play mechanics, but I am not one of those people. Having said that, I’m going back and trying again to find the fun with some of the suggestions here.

I agree with the contributor who mentioned removal of the sPvP map Raid on the Capricorn. ArenaNet has been for years trying to get consideration for the Electronic Sports League to give them e-sport status, so they are wise enough to strip away incredibly flawed mechanics or ban such maps from pvp play. I assume Raid on the Capricorn (the only pvp map to force underwater mechanics) was removed because the game play mechanics were put under a microscope and ArenaNet was called out on these play mechanic flaws. Player skill and tactics are corrupted by random chance and situations invoked outside the players control.

When I am forced to go into the water in GW2 all these things come to mind quickly, the fun factor drops to zero, the situation feels hopeless and I begin to very angry. It’s ok for games to make you mad sometimes. I get angry in PvP all the time, but in PvP I had a great deal of fun and when I calm down 90% of the time I reflect on my own contribution to the loss. I jump right back in because the fun is there. Again, the underwater play in this game to me is just a really horrible experience all around that is not balanced with the otherwise great experiences. ArenaNet should revamp it. Some ideas for the revamp the open world underwater play outside of the underwater instanced content.

1. Make it so underwater speed is increased not decreased. In fact just keep a constant speed boon up so we can get in and out ask quickly as possible and get back to the part of the game we love.

2. Add a few new underwater utility skills for protection that gets us near invincibility (yes it will make things easier, the players who love themselves some underwater play don’t have to use said skills. Players who hate underwater play will just accept it as your apology for implementing it so poorly in the first place)

Realistically I understand underwater play can not be removed from the game, but a few changes could be added so for those of us who realize what a train wreck it is can get in and get out without signing out in rage. This is of course just a suggestion. The apparent absence of underwater maps in HoT seems to further validate ANet’s acknowledgement that much could be done to improve underwater play, so why are we still being forced to go there for achievements?

StinVec.3621:

I quite enjoy underwater exploration, design, movement controls and combat with each of the professions.

In fact, this is the only game where I enjoy underwater as much as land. I wish there was a lot more of it and that it would receive the development that I feel it deserves.

I was quite disappointed to see their decision to no longer release aquatic weaponry in the black lion weapon sets. Those were the main ones I would look to acquire from sets.

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Through their actions AreanNet has greatly devalued underwater play. I’m not certain if that is because they have put the play mechanics under a microscope and realized just how horrible things are or if they are responding to the communities dislike of underwater play as a whole (which of course is caused by the play mechanics, so it’s kind of sort of the same thing).

Regardless, it has been more or less abandoned and so the question is why do these zones still force players to give up their enjoyment.

As a thief I find underwater battles to be pretty fun and easy. lots of evades and nice damage. maybe for other classes it’s different though.

The biggest problem with underwater combat is the same one as on land – the targeting is ruddy awful at times. I’m on land. I’m facing 5 degrees to the left of the mob fighting me… So the auto-targeting decides I hit the mob 1000 away from me instead of the one that’kittenting me. More aggro. Or I’m running towards the mob I want to attack, spam 1… And hit a mob 89 degrees to the side because its closer…

Meh. Take that two-dimensional problem & stick it underwater in 3 dimensions, and it becomes many times worse. Beyond that, no, sorry Sam, I don’t share your apparent frustration. Underwater combat is trickier, yes, but mostly because we spend so little time there – 5% would be nearer the mark than 15%. Where GW2 is concerned, very few of us are used to manoeuvring in 3D rather than 2D.

I am requesting the moderator remove this thread.

I am making this request because on further thought, it’s clear ArenaNet has no plans to make changes in the base game. Their general response to the quality of underwater play in terms of mechanics/fun will be revealed in HoT. I believe underwater play will be largely absent in this expansion based on this information available so far and the lack of attention to underwater zones and play since launch not to mention community outcry against it. This thread is old and belongs in the past.

As previously stated. When you remove the underwater aesthetic elements and just focus on the play mechanics you have a handicap experience that the player must endure every time they are in the water. Again, we have mobility mechanics in play that match a debuff on land. Which creates a degree of frustration. We have a very limited set of skills which force underwater playstyle. No one picked a class based on underwater play mechanics yet everyone is forced to adapt to their classes underwater mechanics. The underwater zones (especially the ones with Risen) create scenarios where a player is mobbed immediately and must result to an annoying evade, return, kill, evade tactic that in many zones gets you nowhere because everything re spawns. At best case when it works it creates a long grind session which goes against the principles of the GW2 manifesto.

When you strip away all the fun and you create a frustrating pattern of repetition, force play mechanics that in the primary game (land based combat) the play would only be subject to due to consequence of their actions (specifically talking about the reduced speed underwater). Good game design is not entirely subjective. There are many respected patterns published on good design. In every possible aspect I can measure by those standard I declare the underwater play in Gw2 is horrible design. I would challenge the brilliant minds at ArenaNet behind it’s mechanic to juxtapose the play mechanic shift from land to water, the incentives, tactical elements and options given to the player on land vs water and to justify why they believe it’s even acceptable design. I mean this with the most respect. I really, really love this game. I just don’t understand how this one aspect can be such a train wreck and it makes me very angry every time I play and end up having to do underwater content.

Again, I don’t expect a response and I don’t want to dig up old bones. Moderators if you feel compelled to forward my comments to dev please do, if you do not I understand but I’d like this removed as it is an old discussion and I don’t want my name at the top of it in the public forums.

As a student of game design I’d love to hear the rational behind underwater content but I know no one owes me that and I am free to stop playing (I’m not). I just want to provide consructive feedback but I don’t see a way to do that because of how angry I am about this.

I think there are two major things standing in the way of underwater combat- traits and positioning. So few traits apply to underwater combat, and enough skills are unusable underwater, that the transition there is near impossible. If anything, there should be a separate trait and skill panel for water play that is automatically switched to upon submerging.

Positioning ruins underwater combat for me because it’s very hard to be spacialy aware. As it functions now it’s basically the same as land combat except you can move up and down. However it’s very difficult to see/ target enemies that attack you from below or above you. The cameras FoV just isn’t large enough for you to be in control of the situation around you

What I can never stand is how to get underwater if you move around using a keyboard instead of a mouse. I always am using a keyboard and if I am not jumping in from someplace high I have to stop and grab my mouse to get underwater. If I am being fired on or am trying to get somewhere fast that short immersion breakage is beyond frustrating!