Guild Wars 2

You say alot which has already been said, and given the lack of response from ANet, needs to continually be re-said.

It’s not even all that difficult to think of alternatives (giving bosses soft damage increases if controlled, a temporary immunity that dispells after a short duration, more frequent lighter attacks so they aren’t utterly hobbled by having 1 skill interrupted, and so on) that would be much more welcome than the current system.

dace.8019:

You say alot which has already been said, and given the lack of response from ANet, needs to continually be re-said.

It’s not even all that difficult to think of alternatives (giving bosses soft damage increases if controlled, a temporary immunity that dispells after a short duration, more frequent lighter attacks so they aren’t utterly hobbled by having 1 skill interrupted, and so on) that would be much more welcome than the current system.

Yea, we will see. If this feature pack don’t do anything about the topic. I loose all hopes of it ever being changed. Zerg content and simple AI only works for so long. The game is soon two years old and I don’t know what life expectancy they have for it, but if nothing changes I don’t see old players staying. But I guess as long new players are coming in they don’t care.

delete 15 charr’s

I totally agree with this. Despite people (ignorant people) cry around about zerker gear as if it’s the Devil and source of all evil in this game, it’s far from being so.
It’s just the best in the current state of the game. And the 10% nerf will indeed change nothing, full dps will still rule, because:
-Toughness gives no real defense against this 1-hit attacks bosses are given;
-Conditions have a totally meaningless role in PvE, they bring no good to a team in a dungeon for example, and causes some professions which are thought as condition-dealer to be hated and useless;
-Healing power nor most of support is in any way enough to counter a damage so high to 1 hit in barely 1-2 seconds;
-Mobs…you spoke of AI which sucks indeed (Why in GW1 the dumbest mob would move away from AoE attacks and in a game which should be advanced, mobs simply stand still, crushed into a corner to take any attack without trying to move from there?), and also the fact they have uber-huge hp pools doesn’t help. Dps is needed for a fight not to last forever.
I honestly hope that all the people who go “ZERK RUINED THE GAME” will actually read and realize some things…and maybe stop accusing people for choosing to run the best build available at the moment.

Defiance/Unshakeable were simply last minute resorts to a rushed release, I wouldn’t be surprised if these mechanics were changed, hopefully they will be.

I do agree and it has been said for a long time that defiant & unshakable are negating way to much CC. it has needed rework for a long time.

but I also understand it is there to prevent this! from happening.

I’ve always thought those 2 buffs were strange. The main thing about it is, it makes the fights so boring! Most of your good skills are completely useless. You just stand there auto-attacking with an occasional dodge for like 5 minutes straight…
Def not a good way to promote learning how to play your class.

I feel they have defiance backwards.
Instead of hitting the target with CC to get rid of a stack of defiance, and then losing immunity to CC when all the defiance is gone, it should be the other way around.
Each time the mob is hit by defiance, it gains 1 stack which has a duration. Each stack reduces the effectiveness of CC by a % until it reaches max stacks and becomes totally immune.

The only problem I have with what the OP is saying is that fixing CC doesn’t stop you from building pure DPS. There’s no way to “gear up”(stat wise) for CCing. It would make more weapon sets viable though.

Arewn.2368:

I feel they have defiance backwards.
Instead of hitting the target with CC to get rid of a stack of defiance, and then losing immunity to CC when all the defiance is gone, it should be the other way around.
Each time the mob is hit by defiance, it gains 1 stack which has a duration. Each stack reduces the effectiveness of CC by a % until it reaches max stacks and becomes totally immune.

what you’re saying here is partly true and has been suggested by me and many others for over a year now.

I do agree with the opinions here Defiance/Unshakable is not very good design and causes more issues than it solves. But to make the changes required would be quite some task indeed, but I think coming up with a legitimate solution is important and well worth the devs time.

Totally agree with you OP, that’s why I hope to see this issue tackled in the feature patch under the “removing restrictions” or “facilitating friendly play”. Let’s wait and see, if nothing is announced for it, the nerf to zerker would just be a knee-jerk reaction to “protect” the economy.

Arewn.2368:

I feel they have defiance backwards.
Instead of hitting the target with CC to get rid of a stack of defiance, and then losing immunity to CC when all the defiance is gone, it should be the other way around.
Each time the mob is hit by defiance, it gains 1 stack which has a duration. Each stack reduces the effectiveness of CC by a % until it reaches max stacks and becomes totally immune.

The only problem I have with what the OP is saying is that fixing CC doesn’t stop you from building pure DPS. There’s no way to “gear up”(stat wise) for CCing. It would make more weapon sets viable though.

It should just reduce the chance of CC working to like 10% and give temp immunity after it receives a CC effect. That way, you can still have a control role in small groups, but in large world mob zergs, when it gets knocked down, it’s immune to that specific cc for say 20-30 seconds, to keep a zerg from locking it down with skill overload but still allows for it to have an effect at all without 60 people hitting the ceiling immediately.

I’ve mentioned defiance before. The best solution I’ve heard to the problem is to have defiance automatically remove itself over time. Like, if you get 5 stacks of defiance, then every 2 seconds a stack is removed. Stacks can also be removed by CC.

This is so true, and apparently it needs to be repeated, because we have seen practically no improvement. I really hope that one of the upcoming blog posts are about a change to this system… But I won’t be surprised if that isn’t the case.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve mentioned defiance before. The best solution I’ve heard to the problem is to have defiance automatically remove itself over time. Like, if you get 5 stacks of defiance, then every 2 seconds a stack is removed. Stacks can also be removed by CC.

I’d say increase the decay time, but defiance doesn’t trigger if you interrupt a big attack.

Defiance and Unshakeable work well. Currently, they are a coordination check. Good groups are able to coordinate their CC so that they can interrupt key boss moves. The most notable are the champion Wurm in Twilight Arbor or the Abomination in Arah Path 2.

Good groups will say “remove the defiant stacks so I can interrupt the next bash attack please” over VOIP and the stacks will be removed. Then the next time he does his wind up attack it will be interrupted and the group will be able to maintain DPS without having to dodge. Proper coordination + well timed CC = optimal DPS.

Unfortunately, this level of coordination is impossible for pug groups. Is that a problem? I think not. There should be a reward in efficiency for coordinated groups that use their CC perfectly. PUGs who spam their CC and don’t coordinate shouldn’t expect to get the same efficiency out of it as groups who manage it properly.

End result: current system encourages organization, tight play, and rewards skill over mindless CC spam. These are the things that SHOULD be rewarded by the game system. Any move to dumb the game down or make spamming skills with no thought more rewarding should be ignored.

Tree.3916:

Unfortunately, this level of coordination is impossible for pug groups. Is that a problem? I think not.

And that’s why instead of trying to coordinate with pug who play different classes, and not all have CC we go all zerk. Easier, efficient and no need for CC cause anyway it doesn’t work 99% of the time on those boss.
I always thought that defiance was Anet saying just go play zerk.

You miss my point. This is the level of coordination that good full dps berserker groups have. Sure you can beat two bosses I cited in a full dps pugs with no coordination, but it will be inefficient, sloppy and incur downs. In a coordinated dps group it will be fast, clean and downs will be rare. That is the point.

As a corollary, if you believe that you can just wear berserker gear and dps all the bosses in the game with no cc, no support and no evasion you are mistaken and should refrain from making comments that stem from your inexperience.

You are the one who are overrating the power of CC. If you’re think that’s useful to waste dps by removing stacks of whatever and do one little interrupt every 30 sec, then yeah I’ll have nothing more to say.

I have nothing against these buffs in some bossfights or being a part of an actual mechanic, but they are in nearly every kittening bossfight. It’s one of the reasons why the dungeon fights are boring. With this only one of 5 Control Skills are working, others are just useless, and to remove the stacks you have to use control skills and sacrifice dps. It’s pointless to do so, you can use dps to kill a boss really fast.

To make matters wors, some fights like the Mai Trinn one have mechanics that would work well without the Anti CC crap, but well guess it, Unshakable. Without this one or a reworked Anti CC buff thats timed, Anet could make fights that are much better, more different and complicated. Using mobs with Low HP and High toughness is a first step to make fights better now Anet must go the second one and rework this buff.

@Riss I guess you have never played in an organized group.

@Walhalla Mai Trinn is one of the bosses that we use coordinated CC on the most. We do our best to make sure her Defiant is off when the blue field comes down.

For both of you, you back up what I said. In unorganized groups you will never coordinate your CC in a meaningful way. In organized groups you can. Is it so wrong for Anet to have a mechanic that rewards organization?

I feel like there is a certain element of players on this forum who wont rest until the game is dumbed down to the point where everyone no-dodges and facetanks every boss while a dedicate healer heals the group and a dedicated control character spams CC to lock down bosses. Sorry, I like Guild Wars 2, whatever game that is you all can go play.

what about a nice fix:
some specific conditions actually increases the DPS damage, some conditions are more powerful because of this.

let’s say we have a blob monster legendary status, it’s really powerful and has PBAoE attacks.
bleeding and vulnerability makes the blob monster open up to burning and weakness, the only way to add burning and weakness is trough melee but bleeding and vulnerability can only be caused by a spell.

makes conditions more useful and makes DPS not the only option.

Dps and CC could work in such a beautiful symbiosis, so easily if Anet just had the will to change boss mechanics.

Give all bosses a stance of some sort that can only go away with CC, and when it’s down momentarily it’s time for the dps:ing.

That way, zerker is no longer the only viable option, CC becomes useful, coordination and timing becomes key, it encourages diverse grouping and last but not least: boss fights become fun and involve skill.

EDIT: ^Above post would work well in combination with my suggestion too.

Even if CC becomes viable, then it would probably not be effective to change a thing to the zerker meta. The game is already too easy to add another survival mechanic. Most people can already do well without the need for survival skill. Even if CC becomes necessary, The Warrior’s offhand mace is already in the zerker meta. Groups will increase the demand for warriors because they have everything.

It won’t make any other classes more viable. To fix this, they need to make every profession have a useful place in dungeons at the same time.

Yeah, while defiants is a very crude mechanic the point is inmune to CC bosses can be killed faster than anyway else in zerker equipment without CCing them, defiant or not.

Player damage taken needs to change form, dodge is a bad mechanic, I know it’s active and involving but it’s the true mother of all GW2 problems. Other stuff could be tweaked for better, but removing the ability to become invulnerable once every 5 seconds regardles of: class, build, equipment == everything is paramount.

Since that’s not gonna happen becuase it would be a too strong step for Anet I think, a partial fix would be to decrease the rate of “one”-shot skills and add more smaller yet more frequent damage sources so pasive defences become meaningfull.

I’ve only ever seen one suggestion on what to replace Defiant with, and that was timed CC immunity. The problem with timed immunity is that:

• Uncoordinated groups and herds will still trigger CC randomly, and thus CC will only ever interrupt something it was actually beneficial to interrupt — the same as it is with Defiant, now
• How long is the timer supposed to be? If it’s too low, then there’s the risk of trivializing bosses. If it’s any longer than it takes a coordinated group to strip Defiant, now, then the only players actually using CC effectively will be disadvantaged. If it’s the same, then there was little point in making the change.

If there’s a better idea than a timer, I’ve not seen it suggested.

Some big changes that are needed.
Removal of Defiance, unshakable, add in control canceling abilities for all bosses and champions (attacks that break it or abilities that once used give it a period of control immunity)

Then have lower level mobs that have immunity or resistance to control.

Keep ALL high spike DPS skills on single or low target weapons.

Remove the 5target limit for targets (Both offensive and allied) for all non zerg content (so outside of living world content and world vs world it could go back to how it used to be)

REMOVE THE 5 TARGET LIMIT FOR MOBS!!!! dear god this makes certain megaboss fights a joke -cough- shadow behemoth.

independent condition stacks in pve (have it so conditions are calculated on serverity rather than multiple smaller condition stacks and each time you add a stack of something it increase the stack length and severity for your character (the server only having to calculate it once per tick which is no different to individual attacks)
It should also do wonders for zerg content and require a lot less info being passed along.

And ofcourse boons, I feel there need to be a higher duration across the board or stacking in intensity on most boons like what I suggested with conditions. This would make boon stripping more important (for pvp and pve aslong as mobs got the same access to boons on occasion) heck even having boons that control skills strip.

How about just giving bosses a few seconds of stability after they have been hit by a control skill.

Tzarakiel.7490:

How about just giving bosses a few seconds of stability after they have been hit by a control skill.

People will still moan that you cannot lock bosses down cause cc should be powerful, like in pvp where it’s prevalent and everyone complains about cc spam. If pvp-ers have it, let pve-ers have it as well.

Riss.1536:

You are the one who are overrating the power of CC. If you’re think that’s useful to waste dps by removing stacks of whatever and do one little interrupt every 30 sec, then yeah I’ll have nothing more to say.

I’m pretty sure guilds like DnT and rT are overrating CCs.

haviz.1340:

Tzarakiel.7490:

How about just giving bosses a few seconds of stability after they have been hit by a control skill.

People will still moan that you cannot lock bosses down cause cc should be powerful, like in pvp where it’s prevalent and everyone complains about cc spam. If pvp-ers have it, let pve-ers have it as well.

Of course, players always moan, but at least I won’t have to use 3-5 control skills on my on my character to use cc against bosses.

In before Headshot spam.

I’d like to throw in my vote that we try reworking these two mechanics next on the PvE balance plan.

It’s something that my guildies and I have also discussed. We came to the same conclusion. We too would like to see CC as a viable strategy vs bosses in PvE. More than the initial wall shot at least.

Maybe it would be fun if a boss could be cc-ed and builds up to 5 (or a bit less or more) stacks and then it frenzies, same as warrior skill, +50% attack speed but also more dmg taken for a certain period. And I agree mobs should try to move out of Aoe, being staff elementalist I know what this means… (flameburst,MS, lava font, blast (*X), Eruption, (Sandstorm), geyser, healing rain, lava font,flameburst, lavafont, lavafont, MS) And I would welcome it. Static fields would have a good use instead of just providing me speedboosts for the party water & earth would also be more usefull… providing slowing or immobilizes when the boss tries to take off…

And lastly the stacking meta would have a great counter….

Guild Wars 2 trinity should be DPS, Control and Support.

Right now only dps matters against bosses because of Unshakeable. Control effects are rendered almost useless and they are used almost exclusively on bosses that can heal to interrupt their heals, and boons are applied by full berserker specs without any need to sacrifice dps.

In order to make Control effects work on bosses the mechanic should be altered in a way that allows for some degree of control but prevents a party from stunlocking the bosses. A party composed by full zerker a/m + GS right now can have a stun every 5 seconds, the outright removal of Unshakeable would allow such party to totally shut down a boss while still dealing top tier dps. So could a /p thief that interrupts every 4 seconds.

In order to make Control desirable in a dungeon run they should make it required. To do so, attacks that wipe the whole party or at least cripple heavily their chances of success need to be added. Those attacks would need to bypass evades and cover big areas of the battlefield in order to require an interrupt and not being simply avoided by evades. Also they should have longer cooldowns after an interrupt so that the interrupt itself wouldn’t be useless because the attack will still occur after 3 seconds. Kholer spin attack is a good example or how those attacks should behave, with the addition of bypassing evades but not boons, so that also support would be more useful. This would make interrupts a requirement, but they also could work towards making other forms of control useful. They could, for instance, add heavy damaging charging attacks that chase you through evades avoidable with Cripple, fast and damaging multi-hit attacks avoidable with Weakness and so on.

But again, a party of full dps geared characters would still be able to control the boss just fine, hence making control-dedicated builds virtually useless. In order to make control oriented and damage avoidance builds actually viable, they should overhaul the stat system. Right now there is no stat that has any influence over control effects or control-like conditions (like Immobilize, Cripple and Weakness) bar Condition Duration that is a stat that you can raise dramatically even in a dps spec with just a consumable and in some cases shares traitlines with damage oriented stats. A stat that influences the quality and actual chances of applying successfully control effects and control conditions would be needed in order to prevent all out dps specs to control as effectively as a control oriented build would, as well as a control-defense stat on the target to prevent a full dps spec to control at full efficiency. In an ideal scenario, a dps build would see the old “Resisted!” message pop up on the target upon trying to apply a control effect or condition, an hybrid dps-control build would be able to successfully apply the control effect/stat but with reduced effect, like having weakness trigger at a lower percentage, cripple, chill, immobilize and CCs last shorter and so on, while a pure control build would be able to successfully apply the control effect with full efficiency. Also, a modifier based on said hypothetical stat should be added to individual control effects according to the power of the control effect itself, for instance Chill would need a higher of said hypothetical stat to actually trigger and for more time than Cripple would.

Some powerful attacks would still be impossible to interrupts to retain evades usefulness. Small autoattacks would be interruptable but the party would be punished for doing so because they will find themselves short of one interrupt. To do so, they could add an attack-specific modifier that changes the amount of “control power” needed in order to interrupt an attack, with hybrid control-dps builds being able to interrupt smaller attacks.

Similarly, they should overhaul the way that stats influence support (boon application) because right now a full dps spec can apply boons at full efficiency, like might stacking ele for instance that can max out might stacks and deal top tier dps. A stat that influences the power of boons and not only their duration would be needed to have support oriented builds. Said stat should replace Healing Power and would, for instance, determine the quantity of damage Protection can absorb, power increase from Might, how much heal per second Regeneration provides, the chance to resist a control effect Stability provides, the speed increase from Swiftness, critical chance raise from Fury and so on, including skill specific support increase, like Banners for instance. That stat wouldn’t, however, have an influence over self-buffing skills like personal buffing signets. That way we could have support builds that focus on something else besides dps. Said builds would be able to buff party damage, make survival easier in critical situations, make the party able to skip some mobs with swiftness and so on. A modifier should be added to boons and buffs as well according to their effectiveness, in order to avoid more powerful boons to break the game, like having a party with 90% damage reduction Protection, 70% uptime.

Such changes would imply an overhaul of rewards to better reflect the difficulty increase.

That being said, all these changes would require an total overhaul of the fighting and stat system as we know them, so… not going to happen (as much as any serious combat overhaul is not going to happen) especially since dungeons are pretty much abandoned by the developer at the moment, dungeons being the place more deeply altered by such changes. I even heard the dungeon team doesn’t exist anymore.

And even then, would such a system with an higher complexity level, that implies thoughtful use of skills, harsher choices of stats, more specific builds, good timing skills and strategic use of skills, as well as the need of a certain group composition would be welcome by a playerbase that rages over 10 seconds longer kills on bosses and that the only strategy it can think of is “allstackhere”?

And make no mistake: the critical damage nerf is not oriented to improve build variety. It’s a change aimed at people that can’t survive playing a full berserker spec to please them and at people that can’r react to a burst in wvw. Build variety won’t improve, and full zerker will be even more optimal since more dps will be needed.

So, for the people who love fast paced, complex and varied combat please, pick another MMO. And let me know when they find one like it.

TL;DR: In order to have truly desirable control and support builds, control and support should be a requirement for clearing content. A stat overhaul is also needed with stats influencing control effect and conditions chance to trigger and their power, as well as a control resistance stats on target in order to prevent builds with small amount of “control power” stat to effectively apply control. A stat that has an influence in boons and other support forms is also needed in order to create support oriented builds. A reward overhaul is also necessary. Such changes will never occur and player base wouldn’t welcome them anyway.

I don’t think they really need to massively overhaul what Defiance does, but put in skills enemies use which aren’t affected by Defiance that you need to interrupt, like the final boss in the dredge fractal, and mechanics which involve heavy use of CC (eg the boss enrages, pucks out a player to target with very fast and hard melee attacks, forcing you to immobilise/cripple and kite until the enrage ends).

As for Defiance itself:

- Weakness just applies a flat 15% damage decrease whilst it’s active.
- Keep Blind as it is, but increase the chance to miss to 15% and it doesn’t wear off after a single attack.

So you’re telling me we should be able to have a 120 man zerg chain stun spam bosses so they do nothing.

Forestgreen.7981:

So you’re telling me we should be able to have a 120 man zerg chain stun spam bosses so they do nothing.

No, no one is telling you that. I would, however, encourage you to read before responding.

CC is very important and widely used in organised groups with defiants current implementation. I dont know how many times we have to repeat this until people realise that….

The only thing i dislike is how blind works on unshakeable bosses. It should be 10% chance to apply not 10% chance to work.

Spoj The Second.7680:

CC is very important and widely used in organised groups with defiants current implementation. I dont know how many times we have to repeat this until people realise that….

Sure, it’s used in some dungeons. However, dungeons are a rather small part of the game, have received minimal attention during updates and are mostly so easy you don’t need any CC. So yes, CC is useful in some cases, just like condition damage is good in organised groups without a second CDMG character. Doesn’t mean CDMG works fine in PvE.

dekou.6012:

Spoj The Second.7680:

CC is very important and widely used in organised groups with defiants current implementation. I dont know how many times we have to repeat this until people realise that….

Sure, it’s used in some dungeons. However, dungeons are a rather small part of the game, have received minimal attention during updates and are mostly so easy you don’t need any CC. So yes, CC is useful in some cases, just like condition damage is good in organised groups without a second CDMG character. Doesn’t mean CDMG works fine in PvE.

CC is useful in every part of the game except in zergs. Simply because bosses get 50 stacks of defiant. But if they didnt then the entire zerg could stunlock them to crap. So its fine as it is. It should not be balanced around zergs (the most mindless thing in the game).

How about this for a insane idea:

Rather than putting something on the mob when CCed, put the skill used into a longer cooldown depending on what got hit.

Meaning that if you snag just trash mobs, the skill is right back up to use. Snag a legendary on the other hand and you may be looking at that cooldown for some time.

The baseline cooldown would be set for PVP uses.

End result, skill spammers only hurt themselves and not the whole team.

dekou.6012:

Spoj The Second.7680:

CC is very important and widely used in organised groups with defiants current implementation. I dont know how many times we have to repeat this until people realise that….

Sure, it’s used in some dungeons. However, dungeons are a rather small part of the game, have received minimal attention during updates and are mostly so easy you don’t need any CC. So yes, CC is useful in some cases, just like condition damage is good in organised groups without a second CDMG character. Doesn’t mean CDMG works fine in PvE.

Arah p2 abomination, Arah p1 Shoggroth, COE legendary golem, COE p1 Bjarl, Arah p3 Magecrusher, AC p1/3 last bosses.

For the last three you don’t need to chain it, but getting CC off at the right time can save the group from a huge damage spike.

For everything else, CC is extremely useful.

Sure, you can brute force DPS them all, but it won’t even be remotely efficient. The fact of the matter is – you can clear these bosses without CC, it just won’t be very fast. and the current implementation of Defiant rewards group co-ordination and not just smashing crowd control skills, which is what people in this forum want to do – to just get Defiant removed so they can stunlock bosses to death because hitting a punching bag that can’t do anything is fun apparently.

Yeah removing defiant stacks and leave them to 0 can be important in some situations. However, such task can be performed by full dps oriented builds so, as I said, there’s no need to actually spec for anything else than dps hence build variety is 0. All classes opt for the most damaging build without the need of anything else. Same goes for support.

A system that provides stats to control and support properly would solve that problem and make the DPS, Control, Support trinity effective, hence giving people reasons to spec in something besides dps.

And the topic “World bosses will be stunlocked” can easily be resolved. The boss checks all players and determines the number of control characters. This could be done by setting an amount of “control power” for the boss to determine if the build is control oriented. Then, when the boss attacks with an attack that should be interrupted, it sets an amount of “control defense” based on the number of control characters on the battlefield. If the total “control power” withstood during the channel/attack animation is greater than the boss “control defense” the attack is successfully interrupted. This requires a set number of those player trying to CC during that attack. If less than a error margin, considered acceptable, fail to CC during that attack, the total “control power” will be insufficient to interrupt. This way you will need actual coordination to overcome world bosses. Control players trying to CC unimportant attacks will leave the zerg vulnerable during heavy damaging ones since their control skills will be on cooldown.

Or make world bosses immune to CC. I’d hate to have hard world bosses since usually I cast a ranged autoattack and go for a sandwich. Worst case scenario, when I come back my character is being revived and I’ll have to wait a couple of seconds before getting my reward.

Control role is not determined by gear….. Same goes for support. Just because people can do all 3 roles in berserker doesnt mean it needs changing.

Wait, wait, wait! I want to spam 1 in zergs and brainless PvE content. I don’t want to CC! Elitists! Let me play how I want!

100% Agree

CC immunity is terrible for the buildvarity in PvE and for a gamemode, where Dmg>All is, is this a shame.

Dont you said, that GW2 is a game without the Holy Trinity, but with dmg, control and support?
Well, we have dmg (a lot of dmg), no control and only low support.

It’s time to improve the PvE and give non-dmg builds a right to exist!!

Why dont you replace Unshakable and Defiance, with an alternative? For example a skill that give the enemy stability or something like the Hardened Scales buff from Tequatl, but for CC.

Try to kill the pack of mobs after the tunnel in the molten fractal @50 without using any blind, any cc, any damage mitigation. Try it. I dare you talk about how CC is useless after this. In fact it’s my main pet peeve in pugs when I see warriors camp their gs and not use mace 5 etc.