Guild Wars 2

Nikaido.3457:

Try to kill the pack of mobs after the tunnel in the molten fractal @50 without using any blind, any cc, any damage mitigation. Try it. I dare you talk about how CC is useless after this. In fact it’s my main pet peeve in pugs when I see warriors camp their gs and not use mace 5 etc.

its useless on bosses and champs, 99% of time people avoid regular mobs

phys.7689:

Nikaido.3457:

Try to kill the pack of mobs after the tunnel in the molten fractal @50 without using any blind, any cc, any damage mitigation. Try it. I dare you talk about how CC is useless after this. In fact it’s my main pet peeve in pugs when I see warriors camp their gs and not use mace 5 etc.

its useless on bosses and champs, 99% of time people avoid regular mobs

No its not. And you cant avoid most regular mobs in fractals.

Spoj The Second.7680:

phys.7689:

Nikaido.3457:

Try to kill the pack of mobs after the tunnel in the molten fractal @50 without using any blind, any cc, any damage mitigation. Try it. I dare you talk about how CC is useless after this. In fact it’s my main pet peeve in pugs when I see warriors camp their gs and not use mace 5 etc.

its useless on bosses and champs, 99% of time people avoid regular mobs

No its not. And you cant avoid most regular mobs in fractals.

so CC is ok, because in high level fractals its useful on trash mobs. you realize that level 50 fractals are played by a very small percentage of players?
And yes its overall useless on champions and Bosses. take mesmer, the master interupter supposedly, they only have like 5 interupts per minute. you would have to use all of those just to get a single interupt in a group. This is assuming no other players random interupt doesnt take your good interupts slot.

Exactly. Its only a problem when noone else is using cc. Dungeons and fractals are meant to be for organised groups. Dungeons are possible in pugs with no real difficulty because they have been in the game since launch. You cannot balance the game around unorganized pugs. You people are just asking for the game to be dumbed down even further than it already is.

All this talk about overhauls has convinced me that this subject is doomed, and therefore GW2 is doomed to be a dps-only game.

GG.

High level fractals are not representative for how most of the game is played, for better or for worse.

digiowl.9620:

High level fractals are not representative for how most of the game is played, for better or for worse.

True but the majority of the playerbase doesnt understand the game they are playing so this will always be the case.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Exactly. Its only a problem when noone else is using cc. Dungeons and fractals are meant to be for organised groups. Dungeons are possible in pugs with no real difficulty because they have been in the game since launch. You cannot balance the game around unorganized pugs. You people are just asking for the game to be dumbed down even further than it already is.

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

the reality is CC is no where near deserving of being the gw2 Trinity in its current iteration. its a side skill that sometimes rarely is useful. Its not an integral part of battle.

current gw2 trinity is dps avoidance and recovery

Spoj The Second.7680:

digiowl.9620:

High level fractals are not representative for how most of the game is played, for better or for worse.

True but the majority of the playerbase doesnt understand the game they are playing so this will always be the case.

Exactly. Even if Defiant were to be swapped out for some other means of limiting CC use on bosses (like an immunity timer), random players in a herd will still not be able to CC bosses effectively. The only way for that type of play to allow for effective CC is to remove any type of immunity and just let players CC-lock.

phys.7689:

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

I see a lot of people asking for this, However, no one seems to actually offer any ideas (besides timed immunity after CC) as to what this could be. Do you?

OR!!!!

we could just wait till we have the full Picture before drawing in the colors…..

to my knowledge there still allot we dont know about the update.. so sit on your hands and wait.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Spoj The Second.7680:

digiowl.9620:

High level fractals are not representative for how most of the game is played, for better or for worse.

True but the majority of the playerbase doesnt understand the game they are playing so this will always be the case.

Exactly. Even if Defiant were to be swapped out for some other means of limiting CC use on bosses (like an immunity timer), random players in a herd will still not be able to CC bosses effectively. The only way for that type of play to allow for effective CC is to remove any type of immunity and just let players CC-lock.

phys.7689:

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

I see a lot of people asking for this, However, no one seems to actually offer any ideas (besides timed immunity after CC) as to what this could be. Do you?

how about you give npcs access to stun breaks and stability, as well have some of them have special behaviors/effects that they use when being CC spammed.
Then you have actual play and counterplay, without arbitrary counting of CCs, which lets be honest 99% of the time is just people totally ignoring CC and using skills based on dps, utility and avoidance.

Disorganized groups and PuGs don’t understand how “Defiant” works. 15+ Stacks on a boss stand testament to this. Why didn’t they figure it out? shrug Who knows…

That said, the game does a kitten poor job of introducing the mechanic and teaching it to players. I’ve said in another post that the game should use the Hero of Shaemoor (or like) segment as a skippable tutorial, much like the one GW: Nightfall had.

The player should be prompted to CC the boss to remove stacks of “Defiant” in order to [story reason here]. This will show the player how the mechanic works and add another tool to their toolbox. Of course not everyone will use it…some won’t understand/care.

Still, I think the whole issue at hand boils down to education. The posts by the less experienced players in quasi meta LFG groups are often the ones who do not understand CC, who do not understand that DPS is not standalone, who do not understand that stacking isn’t just done because it is in a youtube video, etc. These voices ‘poison the well’ and really twist new players into hating the DPS meta for BS reasons.

Final Note: It isn’t necessary to play or like the DPS meta but if you’re gonna hate, at least understand what it is you’re trying to hate. More often than not, once you try to understand something, you will find that you dislike it a lot less. Lack of understanding is a very powerful fuel for anger/hatred

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Spoj The Second.7680:

digiowl.9620:

High level fractals are not representative for how most of the game is played, for better or for worse.

True but the majority of the playerbase doesnt understand the game they are playing so this will always be the case.

Exactly. Even if Defiant were to be swapped out for some other means of limiting CC use on bosses (like an immunity timer), random players in a herd will still not be able to CC bosses effectively. The only way for that type of play to allow for effective CC is to remove any type of immunity and just let players CC-lock.

phys.7689:

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

I see a lot of people asking for this, However, no one seems to actually offer any ideas (besides timed immunity after CC) as to what this could be. Do you?

how about you give npcs access to stun breaks and stability, as well have some of them have special behaviors/effects that they use when being CC spammed.
Then you have actual play and counterplay, without arbitrary counting of CCs, which lets be honest 99% of the time is just people totally ignoring CC and using skills based on dps, utility and avoidance.

That could work if the boss was programmed to use stability in both a proactive (sometimes) and reactive manner. If it were purely reactive, then depending on its CD, there would be little difference between that and a timed immunity. Now, if it were to use stability then use its big whammy, that might even give boon-stripping more of a role.

@ Saint — well said!

The defiance system is a strictly worse version of City of Heroes’ mez protection system — which actually worked pretty well to allow controller types to hold the boss at crucial times while not making it possible to perma-hold the boss. It was also gradual, so holding a random minion was trivial, holding a lieutenant (veteran) required the use of higher-intensity (longer-cooldown) abilities, and holding a boss (elite) 100% of the time required very careful management of control abilities. Holding an elite boss (champion) or archvillain (legendary) required multiple controllers to work together, and even then it was not possible to maintain control for too long. There were also periods where an EB or AV was especially weak or strong against CC.

That said, I didn’t like the COH system that much, either. DRs or immunity timers work much better, and they punish bad play (like overlapping CCs or using the wrong kind of CC in a certain situation) by making the enemy uncontrollable. Of course this opens up the potential for griefing, but I bet that there are far easier ways to grief people in 5-man dungeons anyway.

phys.7689:

how about you give npcs access to stun breaks and stability, as well have some of them have special behaviors/effects that they use when being CC spammed.
Then you have actual play and counterplay, without arbitrary counting of CCs, which lets be honest 99% of the time is just people totally ignoring CC and using skills based on dps, utility and avoidance.

A glimpse into the future: “CC is useless because bosses have stability and can stun break all my stuns.”

I just can’t get how people say unshakable is fine.

Blind vs aegis
Vuln vs might
Weakness vs protection

Why do the condition version have to suffer from reduced effect while the boons dont? Some classes are stronger on applying condition so why should they be suffering from unshakable but other classes apply their boons with 100% success rate?

Afya.5842:

I just can’t get how people say unshakable is fine.

Blind vs aegis
Vuln vs might
Weakness vs protection

Why do the condition version have to suffer from reduced effect while the boons dont? Some classes are stronger on applying condition so why should they be suffering from unshakable but other classes apply their boons with 100% success rate?

Noone said unshakeable is fine. We said defiant is fine.

phys.7689:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Exactly. Its only a problem when noone else is using cc. Dungeons and fractals are meant to be for organised groups. Dungeons are possible in pugs with no real difficulty because they have been in the game since launch. You cannot balance the game around unorganized pugs. You people are just asking for the game to be dumbed down even further than it already is.

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

the reality is CC is no where near deserving of being the gw2 Trinity in its current iteration. its a side skill that sometimes rarely is useful. Its not an integral part of battle.

current gw2 trinity is dps avoidance and recovery

I agree, CC is irrelevant:

Not irrelevant, just unnecessary. Against 98% of the encounters at least. The fact that a handful of bosses in the game need to be interrupted doesn’t make that an actually widely useful tactic. A handful of bosses are also better dealt with ranged attacks, so are bearbow rangers a widely useful play style, worth investing in?

Look at this warrior. He clears the same boss by just DPSing and evading in one third of the time it took the mesmer. And as far as injecting the abomination goes, that’s more a peculiar boss mechanic than actual crowd control play. It would be like saying that dropping pots of lava on bosses is a valid mechanic because one boss in dredge fractal requires you to.

Also control and support can be performed by full dps oriented builds so there’s no need to actually spec for anything else than dps hence build variety is 0.

haviz.1340:

phys.7689:

how about you give npcs access to stun breaks and stability, as well have some of them have special behaviors/effects that they use when being CC spammed.
Then you have actual play and counterplay, without arbitrary counting of CCs, which lets be honest 99% of the time is just people totally ignoring CC and using skills based on dps, utility and avoidance.

A glimpse into the future: “CC is useless because bosses have stability and can stun break all my stuns.”

Which like players they wouldnt have constant access to, the player would then have to bait, and use CC at the right times, or use CC in win win situations. Depending on how much CC is going on, the npc should react differently. Of course blanket stability and stun breaks would be a fail mechanic. But being able, and it being advantageous to control bosses, is kind of the point of CC. the fact that bosses arent designed with CC in mind, makes them less complex, and less interesting.

Every battle is about dps/avoidance/recovery. The best solution for that turns out to be stacking in a corner somewhere. you lose some avoidance, but you increase your recovery and dps drastically.

Making CC useful would allow them to give bosses mechanics that without CC are extremely cheesy and have no counters. A lot of those type of skills, or tactics are the ones that might counter stacking. Like a boss who actively tries to kite or fight in profitable areas. Big wind up skills that are very powerful, but interuptible. Bosses with faster attacks that its profitable to create small openings to do large damage via successfully reacting to what skills he is using. (like the group blowing its CC for a good 10-15 seconds of dps)

hendo.1940:

phys.7689:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Exactly. Its only a problem when noone else is using cc. Dungeons and fractals are meant to be for organised groups. Dungeons are possible in pugs with no real difficulty because they have been in the game since launch. You cannot balance the game around unorganized pugs. You people are just asking for the game to be dumbed down even further than it already is.

I ve done the count CC thing, its still a stupid mechanic. Im not saying you should have no mechanic, im saying they should actually make a good interesting usuable CC mechanic.

the reality is CC is no where near deserving of being the gw2 Trinity in its current iteration. its a side skill that sometimes rarely is useful. Its not an integral part of battle.

current gw2 trinity is dps avoidance and recovery

I agree, CC is irrelevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryynO8PzegY

rewatched the video carefully, and it appears its getting 5 stacks, which is still pretty useless use of skills for the mesmer.
The mesmer is using two skill slots, to do 1 CC every 40 seconds, against a skill which it commonly dodges without using CC. Imagine now, if they put somthing usefull in that slot, they would have had an easier time killing it, or done it faster. Essentially once every 40 seconds, it saves a couple seconds dodging.

yep, useless. and it can only use it with that much precision, because the mesmer is solo and has complete controll over what CC is being used.
is that supposed to be sarcasm? that video doesnt show me relevance, first of all it

What exactly did they gain using control there? the most usefull thing in that fight was going behind the abomination while it slowly swung.

Eh, I already made a long post on my thought RE: defiant/ CC.
Just linking that instead…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Defiant-as-a-diminishing-return-for-CC/first#post3790847

phys.7689:

Bosses with faster attacks that its profitable to create small openings to do large damage via successfully reacting to what skills he is using. (like the group blowing its CC for a good 10-15 seconds of dps)

Which is what currently good teams do in fractals. You create an opening by stunning a boss for 5s.

Bosses could just be given stun breaks or skills that grant temporary stability, make them play by the same rules as we do instead of these lame immunities they have now.

Blinding, stunning or debuffing a boss should be a viable and in some cases even the expected tactic.

haviz.1340:

phys.7689:

Bosses with faster attacks that its profitable to create small openings to do large damage via successfully reacting to what skills he is using. (like the group blowing its CC for a good 10-15 seconds of dps)

Which is what currently good teams do in fractals. You create an opening by stunning a boss for 5s.

ok keep it useless, because thats what you re used to. by the way something that is almost rarely to never used, and doesnt give much added benefit is essentially useless. I think even you cant claim CC is anywhere near being the third pillar of combat that they claimed they wanted it to be.

I agree, it’s almost useless for uncoordinated masses and it does benefit coordinated teams. But since this article is completely false I guess you’re right.

Dungeons in Guild Wars 2 reward players who enjoy organized parties, epic challenges, and delving deeper into the secrets of Tyria.