Uping dificulty to diversify builds is a trap

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Posted by: Apolo.5942

Apolo.5942

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

I have heard talks about expansion content being more difficult and upping fractal levels, this will only result in further reinforcing zerker builds. For the cicle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

The term Exploit means nothing in GW2 –
Vials Maize Balm Exploit(Halloween) 2014
Locked out of JP (Wintersday) 2015

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Well they’re changing conditions caps. With Silverwastes having high armour mobs that should be ideally killed by conditions, the meta might change depending on what boss mechanics will be.

I run a hybrid necro as my fractal toon with high health pool and I’ve yet to be one shooted by anything in as high as 49. Is the difference between 49 and 50 really that bad?

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Posted by: Paradox.1380

Paradox.1380

Well they’re changing conditions caps. With Silverwastes having high armour mobs that should be ideally killed by conditions, the meta might change depending on what boss mechanics will be.

I run a hybrid necro as my fractal toon with high health pool and I’ve yet to be one shooted by anything in as high as 49. Is the difference between 49 and 50 really that bad?

No. The only thing about 49 and 50 that is annoying is that 50’s Instability is random Agony. Its annoying but not going to one-shot you with enough AR. Honestly, I’ve very rarely been one shot by anything in Fractals, because I play Active Defense.

-It’s Lady Paradox- Sweet Adrenaline
“What Part Of Living Says You Gotta Die?
I Plan On Burnin Through Another 9 Lives”

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Posted by: cranos.5913

cranos.5913

Almost nothing will one shot you on gear with more toughness at lvl 50 fracs and it really does make a big difference in dmg recieved.

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Posted by: Apolo.5942

Apolo.5942

Well they’re changing conditions caps. With Silverwastes having high armour mobs that should be ideally killed by conditions, the meta might change depending on what boss mechanics will be.

I run a hybrid necro as my fractal toon with high health pool and I’ve yet to be one shooted by anything in as high as 49. Is the difference between 49 and 50 really that bad?

No. The only thing about 49 and 50 that is annoying is that 50’s Instability is random Agony. Its annoying but not going to one-shot you with enough AR. Honestly, I’ve very rarely been one shot by anything in Fractals, because I play Active Defense.

That is exactly my point, you dont get 1 shotted because you dodge/blind what ever, but when you miss, then they 1 shot you, that is the problem, if armor is not going to prevent that, then it is a useless stat, rising difficulty makes it only more useless.

The term Exploit means nothing in GW2 –
Vials Maize Balm Exploit(Halloween) 2014
Locked out of JP (Wintersday) 2015

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

That is exactly my point, you dont get 1 shotted because you dodge/blind what ever, but when you miss, then they 1 shot you, that is the problem, if armor is not going to prevent that, then it is a useless stat, rising difficulty makes it only more useless.

but that’s what we’re telling you. If you get hit when you have a high health pool or armour, you do not get one shotted.

The only time I WAS being one shotted in fractals was in level 33 (outflanked as the instability), with the Molten Fractal as the last boss fractal. Mostly because AoE’s counted as attacks from behind AND sides, so it was a very serious multiplyer to that damage.

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Posted by: carabidus.6214

carabidus.6214

For the circle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

+10^10^10

I could not possibly agree more. Toughness means nothing in endgame content, but it should. Dodge or die mechanics are so pervasive in this game that every encounter boils down to killing things as quickly as possible before you’re dead.

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

I have heard talks about expansion content being more difficult and upping fractal levels, this will only result in further reinforcing zerker builds. For the cicle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

I believe the damage isn’t necessarily being upped but rather it will be applied with more consistent pressure as things will be much more aggressive (teragriffs in packs says hello, everyone see that stampede of raptors?) and with less opportunity to apply consistent power pressure (mobs dodging more often, etc).

I will also disagree with your first statement. I have shelved my zerker gear (for the moment, will probably go back to 6/6 full zerker guard when I feel like pushing high numbers again) and have begun showcasing High Healing Power 0/0/4/6/4 Battle Presence spec with a number of groups in FotM 50 and I can tell you right now, I am having a fantastic time.

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Posted by: carabidus.6214

carabidus.6214

If you get hit when you have a high health pool or armour, you do not get one shotted.

In higher level content, tanking up on toughness/vitality does not get you very far. Instead of one shot, you might survive two shots. Not much difference and not worth the trait expenditure… In a system where you are facing death in one/two shots, things need to die quickly and efficiently.

Personally, I would love to see more “build diversity”. But until the game starts coming away from dodge-or-die mechanics and making toughness actually be a worthwhile investment, we will continue to have the zerker meta.

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

Well they’re changing conditions caps. With Silverwastes having high armour mobs that should be ideally killed by conditions, the meta might change depending on what boss mechanics will be.

I run a hybrid necro as my fractal toon with high health pool and I’ve yet to be one shooted by anything in as high as 49. Is the difference between 49 and 50 really that bad?

Necros have te biggest health pools in the game, together with an oh kitten button that saves you butt if you get focused.

A guardian, meanwhile, runs with 12k life pool and yes, pretty everything 1-2 shots a guardian, unless he has aegis up. So the way to negate death is not by carrying more vitality or toughness, but avoiding damage at all costs.

Regarding the supposed build diversity that high armor mobs encourage, thats simply forcing players to run conditions.

I really dont see how we can have build diversity. As long as theres a meta, thats the build that will work. In fractals you cannot risk mobs smothering you with their hard hitting attacks. You have to kill them before they kill you, and for that, conditions and anything other than zerker is a bad idea.

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Posted by: Donutdude.9582

Donutdude.9582

I’m struggling to wrap my head around this idea.

I run two different builds on my Guardian – pure Berserker and PTV with a heavy focus on Vitality and Toughness. I notice considerable differences in survivability between the two builds.

Why the thought “toughness/vitality doesn’t matter” exists is beyond me.

EDIT: the post above me – “A guardian, meanwhile, runs with 12k life pool” – um…what? A proper tank-spec. Guardian can get 25k HP with little problems. Not everything needs a Berserker group.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

I’m struggling to wrap my head around this idea.

I run two different builds on my Guardian – pure Berserker and PTV with a heavy focus on Vitality and Toughness. I notice considerable differences in survivability between the two builds.

Why the thought “toughness/vitality doesn’t matter” exists is beyond me.

EDIT: the post above me – “A guardian, meanwhile, runs with 12k life pool” – um…what? A proper tank-spec. Guardian can get 25k HP with little problems. Not everything needs a Berserker group.

Nothing is easier than 4 full might character using icebow though. Since everything dies in 10 seconds. I think that’s what the OP is basically saying.

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Posted by: Garth Thurgen.1380

Garth Thurgen.1380

I’m struggling to wrap my head around this idea.

I run two different builds on my Guardian – pure Berserker and PTV with a heavy focus on Vitality and Toughness. I notice considerable differences in survivability between the two builds.

Why the thought “toughness/vitality doesn’t matter” exists is beyond me.

EDIT: the post above me – “A guardian, meanwhile, runs with 12k life pool” – um…what? A proper tank-spec. Guardian can get 25k HP with little problems. Not everything needs a Berserker group.

Nothing is easier than 4 full might character using icebow though. Since everything dies in 10 seconds. I think that’s what the OP is basically saying.

No, that’s largely what others have brought up, or are the obvious reasons as to why there’s currently no need in non-hyper aggressive armor/weapons in serious PvE. All of Apolo’s paragraphs boil down to “Armor, Vitality, and Healing aren’t any good because everything kills you nearly instantly anyway.” That, however, isn’t exactly all that true for most PvE (even at the “high” end), which is what Donut is saying (the number of truly 1HKO’s in the game is surprisingly low in comparison to the amount of time it’s brought up as a reason as to why the defensive stats don’t work).

It, however, is true that it’s far easier to just burst everything down now. Having higher HP/Def/Healing means pretty much nothing against the enemies that are actually difficult for the purposes of making the fight easier. All you’re doing is extending the fight, which allows more room for player error, in many cases, while the fact that blocking/dodging/reflecting is all the defensive measures needed to actually deal with any given combat scenario.

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

While I agree with the OP to some extent, I find disturbing the levity with which the oneshot term is used.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

In higher level content, tanking up on toughness/vitality does not get you very far.

In regards to fractals, there’s only 1 level that I haven’t been in, which is 50. According to people that have been there, it’s not that different, so I don’t know what kind of higher level content you’re talking about.

Regarding the supposed build diversity that high armor mobs encourage, thats simply forcing players to run conditions.

not really if you mix and match boss mechanics. The same way that all warrior was the meta, until people realized what uses eles and guardians have.

I really dont see how we can have build diversity. As long as theres a meta, thats the build that will work. In fractals you cannot risk mobs smothering you with their hard hitting attacks. You have to kill them before they kill you, and for that, conditions and anything other than zerker is a bad idea.

I’m yet to be smothered by anything in fractals. It’s really nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. Hard if you’re soloing 50? Sure! Hard in general when you go in with people with any builds that simply know what they’re doing? No.

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Posted by: TPMN.1483

TPMN.1483

By the time you get to level 50: you should:

  • you understand active defenses (blinds, invulns, aegis, dodges)
  • defiant (how to strip) and effectively use cc skills (imob/stuns)
  • boss tells(when to use the above)

If you played every level 1-50 on the way up – you would not need. High toughness stats.
Remember this game is designed so that once you are good you progress onto full zerker stats (high risk/high reward). This is how the game was designed from day 1.

For anet to change this to a more traditional MMO would be a massive job (eg full comdi/toughness/healing diversity) – would make the gam a new game.

Embrace the dark side learn how to play better go practice in full zerk and meta builds – stop gimping your team and others insisting that you have other stats which make you stay alive at the highest level of play (FoTM 50).

People were playing FoTM 80s before fractal reset – everything would boom one-shot dead without active defenses. So as far as I am concerned this is simp,y a learn to play better as the game is designed. A QQ thread as the OP has not yet reached the ability to play at the highest level as the game was designed.

[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com

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Posted by: Test.8734

Test.8734

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

That’s more because of bad game design than any limitation of the engine. The enemies have mostly been designed to have very slow, very high damage attacks, the kind of thing that is best countered by dodging. If you change it a bit – make some enemies to high speed, low damage attacks for example – then zerker won’t be so good, since the kind of defense it relies on, like dodging, wouldn’t work so well.

Unfortunatelly, ArenaNet isn’t that good at designing enemies.

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Posted by: fadeaway.2807

fadeaway.2807

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is.

Speak for yourself. My Ventari Guardian can tank pretty much any boss in fotm49+ and survive just fine. I do it to keep things stationary and easy for the zerker pugs in my party.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

I have heard talks about expansion content being more difficult and upping fractal levels, this will only result in further reinforcing zerker builds. For the cicle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

I do not agree, healing and armor are probably the most passive aspect of the game.

However, I agree with your 1 shot sentiment but I like one shot when they are completely telegraphed.

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

Regarding the supposed build diversity that high armor mobs encourage, thats simply forcing players to run conditions.

not really if you mix and match boss mechanics. The same way that all warrior was the meta, until people realized what uses eles and guardians have.

As long as you have something that’s unkillable with direct damage, you are forcing your parties to get a condition spec in the group. As far as you have mobs that kill you if you don’t kill them fast, you are forcing your parties to have high direct damage. Combining the two is just forcing two specs to coexist, but is still forcing and people will start looking “need engineer or condi necro”.

I really dont see how we can have build diversity. As long as theres a meta, thats the build that will work. In fractals you cannot risk mobs smothering you with their hard hitting attacks. You have to kill them before they kill you, and for that, conditions and anything other than zerker is a bad idea.

I’m yet to be smothered by anything in fractals. It’s really nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. Hard if you’re soloing 50? Sure! Hard in general when you go in with people with any builds that simply know what they’re doing? No.

well, congrats to you. I only pug fractals, and yesterday, for example, I was running with a group with 2 warriors, one thief, one ele and me (guardian). It’s almost close to meta! However, i never got more than 5 stacks of might at the same time, and those mostly came from my firefields and blasts. Damage was miserable and we did die to a group of mobs a couple of times.

Fractals is really easy if you run with people who are doing their thing. If they are not, once the aegis, blocks, heals, and regen, are on cd, you are dead.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

As long as you have something that’s unkillable with direct damage, you are forcing your parties to get a condition spec in the group. As far as you have mobs that kill you if you don’t kill them fast, you are forcing your parties to have high direct damage. Combining the two is just forcing two specs to coexist, but is still forcing and people will start looking “need engineer or condi necro”.

the enemies in Silverwastes are not unkillable without condition damage. They would simply take longer to do so. And yes, forced meta will ALWAYS occur. Even if they changed the mechanics to make sure that you don’t heal normally and need a healer and things like that, a new most useful party composition will settle down. The difference is that right now it’s zerker. Later it could be zerker and rampager, or soldier, or whatever.

well, congrats to you. I only pug fractals, and yesterday, for example, I was running with a group with 2 warriors, one thief, one ele and me (guardian). It’s almost close to meta! However, i never got more than 5 stacks of might at the same time, and those mostly came from my firefields and blasts. Damage was miserable and we did die to a group of mobs a couple of times.

Fractals is really easy if you run with people who are doing their thing. If they are not, once the aegis, blocks, heals, and regen, are on cd, you are dead.

I only pug fractals as well. And no, often players in pugs especially on fractals don’t stack might. The thing is, I’m not squishy enough to die if I don’t kill mobs fast. That’s the whole point of not running in zerker.
As long as people know the individual fractal mechanics you can finish any run quite smoothly. What gear people are wearing will only impact whether you’ll finish it 10-20 minutes early or will you take that extra time.

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Posted by: PaxTheGreatOne.9472

PaxTheGreatOne.9472

Well I do not mind If they shifted some bosses gigabillion HP healthpool and make it 1% of it and add 4000 armor… especially not since they seem to be working on max of 100 stacks of conditions vs 25… It would tear the meta to shreds and I doubt it would be bad.

Even for fractals it could be a good thing, except maybe for fractals where condition dmg is halved, but we’ll find a way around it as well. Understand though if armor would go up and the bosee had way lower HP, a heal would be a bigger %-ge of the bosses health… (of course interrupts and posion could be a big change here)

When running conditions we would get the should we take sinister of rabid question, but I’ll leave it to you… IMHO personal healing could use a buff as well. But I could see 1 ore 2 zealot trinkets make a difference, if they would exist….

23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.

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Posted by: Uuni.3561

Uuni.3561

If you want good PvE you must make the mobs function like other players, using the same mechanics and tools available to the players with enough AI to not stack in corners.

But hey, increasing hp and damage and making more stuff unblockable/undodgeable also makes it more difficult! :^)

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Posted by: Algreg.3629

Algreg.3629

If you want good PvE you must make the mobs function like other players, using the same mechanics and tools available to the players with enough AI to not stack in corners.

But hey, increasing hp and damage and making more stuff unblockable/undodgeable also makes it more difficult! :^)

hm, I think I remotely remember a game that did quite well with such an ambitious approach. I wonder which game that is…

As for the Zerker meta, Mirta got it right – there will always be a “meta”. A child bawls and whines for the world to change according to its expectations, an adult adopts and tries to take advantage of a given scenario. The incessant complaining about zerker pretty much shows how a society can be infantilized within just one generation.

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Posted by: Apolo.5942

Apolo.5942

If you want good PvE you must make the mobs function like other players, using the same mechanics and tools available to the players with enough AI to not stack in corners.

But hey, increasing hp and damage and making more stuff unblockable/undodgeable also makes it more difficult! :^)

hm, I think I remotely remember a game that did quite well with such an ambitious approach. I wonder which game that is…

As for the Zerker meta, Mirta got it right – there will always be a “meta”. A child bawls and whines for the world to change according to its expectations, an adult adopts and tries to take advantage of a given scenario. The incessant complaining about zerker pretty much shows how a society can be infantilized within just one generation.

Meta does not equal 1 option. Just look at MTG, you certainly have a meta, which is comprised of a handful of different decks. Here everyone is running the same deck.

The term Exploit means nothing in GW2 –
Vials Maize Balm Exploit(Halloween) 2014
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Posted by: TheRandomGuy.7246

TheRandomGuy.7246

Meta does not equal 1 option. Just look at MTG, you certainly have a meta, which is comprised of a handful of different decks. Here everyone is running the same deck.

You do realize that you just compared card game with mmorpg?

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

If you want good PvE you must make the mobs function like other players, using the same mechanics and tools available to the players with enough AI to not stack in corners.

But hey, increasing hp and damage and making more stuff unblockable/undodgeable also makes it more difficult! :^)

hm, I think I remotely remember a game that did quite well with such an ambitious approach. I wonder which game that is…

As for the Zerker meta, Mirta got it right – there will always be a “meta”. A child bawls and whines for the world to change according to its expectations, an adult adopts and tries to take advantage of a given scenario. The incessant complaining about zerker pretty much shows how a society can be infantilized within just one generation.

Meta does not equal 1 option. Just look at MTG, you certainly have a meta, which is comprised of a handful of different decks. Here everyone is running the same deck.

Metas can only ever serve as a proxy as it requires people to do the studies and people can always overlook something, make a mistake within the experimentation phases of the study, or even not bother applying the same amount of resources to other case scenarios.

That being said, people have been stepping up to the plate to apply none meta specs to use in groups including myself from Skady’s battle presence guardian to condi mesmers and necromancers have been encouraged in my groups with various strategy.

If you want things to change, for people to change, or whatever, you sometimes have to do it yourself if you want things to happen.

Going against the grain is always a tough road but quite often the reward is worth it, at least to myself.

Going full zerker when full pvt groups was the norm was going against the grain back in the day but people including myself stuck it out, and now we have what we have today, the zerker meta(though unfortunately a lot of nerfing was also part of why it became much more accessible to run full glass groups). Now that aggro is much more consistent when applying any level of toughness to one of your associates is proving more and more true, mixing players in different stats, using a trinity comp if that’s your thing, or a balance team in a speed run may become more and more relevant as the condition system itself is being looked at as well come expansion.

Any further balance discussion is a moot point as everything will be getting another balance pass when the expansion hits including mobs themselves as high armor but low health mobs get rolled in, low armor low health mobs with high evasive uptime are introduced, swarming packs, mobs that serve as dedicated healers for the enemy, high stun hammer type mobs akin to nightmare court knights in TA, etc etc.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

Meta does not equal 1 option. Just look at MTG, you certainly have a meta, which is comprised of a handful of different decks. Here everyone is running the same deck.

You do realize that you just compared card game with mmorpg?

And the card game is winning in diverse gameplay? =P

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

I have heard talks about expansion content being more difficult and upping fractal levels, this will only result in further reinforcing zerker builds. For the cicle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

Have you actually done FOTM 50 or are you just reciting something you read on the forums?

I can pretty much tell you you’re not going to get as stomped in fotm 50 if you’re wearing soldier’s or knight’s compared to zerker.
These gear sets mean the bosses do exactly what you said – they 2-3 shot you.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

And the card game is winning in diverse gameplay? =P

well card games are PvP. And PvP is diverse in build variety here too :P

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

And the card game is winning in diverse gameplay? =P

well card games are PvP. And PvP is diverse in build variety here too :P

Yeah, I was going to bring that up, but.. eh. Lazy. XD

I’m not even all that qq about the ‘zerker meta,’ honestly. It’s mainly an artifact of ancient dungeons. The strategies are known, the combos exist, and speedrun groups use them.

Big deal?

As it is, the devs should to a balance pass and up the armor on all PvE enemies by a good 25% and drop their health accordingly. It would open up condition builds as better than before without having a huge impact on direct damage or the PvP/WvW metas. It works especially well since condition caps are soon to be a thing of the past, fingers crossed for good luck.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Ugh this thread again.

Guys, google FOTM Nomad Solos. People can literally facetank Mossman with defense and healing armor. Defense and healing are OP, not power armors.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

The problem Nevets is that the people saying toughness and healing are bad in the game haven’t actually tried it.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

Here we go Apolo,

Skady Valda

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCxfgAjHhmmy0a29VtGeRpCK4ADb4SQTS

Can’t find her thread in the gw2 forums but there is clear footage of battle presence AKA bunker spec in action.

Yes a lot of it is on fotm 40 but speaking from experience it pretty much works the same way on 50.

And the card game is winning in diverse gameplay? =P

well card games are PvP. And PvP is diverse in build variety here too :P

Yeah, I was going to bring that up, but.. eh. Lazy. XD

I’m not even all that qq about the ‘zerker meta,’ honestly. It’s mainly an artifact of ancient dungeons. The strategies are known, the combos exist, and speedrun groups use them.

Big deal?

As it is, the devs should to a balance pass and up the armor on all PvE enemies by a good 25% and drop their health accordingly. It would open up condition builds as better than before without having a huge impact on direct damage or the PvP/WvW metas. It works especially well since condition caps are soon to be a thing of the past, fingers crossed for good luck.

I don’t agree with across the board, the primary goal would be that everyone can find a place of expertise, fully destroying the worth of full power builds (zerker, sassy) is counterproductive to the ultimate goal which is a place where everyone can belong. Annihilation of the zerker meta via destroying berserker builds is not the way, but rather diversity of opposition is.

As we mention PvP, in PvP the stat types, behavior, and builds of players are varied which is why you have a varied meta. To apply this variation in mobs with a procedural method is the best solution so the meta can never serve to or come close to an absolute but rather a target average at best.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

I don’t agree with across the board, the primary goal would be that everyone can find a place of expertise, fully destroying the worth of full power builds (zerker, sassy) is counterproductive to the ultimate goal which is a place where everyone can belong. Annihilation of the zerker meta via destroying berserker builds is not the way, but rather diversity of opposition is.

As we mention PvP, in PvP the stat types, behavior, and builds of players are varied which is why you have a varied meta. To apply this variation in mobs with a procedural method is the best solution so the meta can never serve to or come close to an absolute but rather a target average at best.

Not trying to destroy a meta. There’s very little grudge to be had there.

Why I say “across the board” is meant to be a starting point. For most of the creatures in the game, their armor is simply too low to support anything other than direct damage builds (and wise application of utility skills and combos, in dungeons).

Moreso, because direct damage is too good, enemies have to be giant meat-walls of HP for condition builds to even have enough time to be useful. Even then, a lot of theorists say that condition builds with enough time still won’t do better damage output.

Sometimes, the way to balance is bring the outlier back in line rather than do something to buff every other play style. Making AI tweaks is only going to go so far if the mobs still die too quickly for their most threatening actions to take place.

That said, you’re right in that a more robust AI could and should make the game more interesting. I read a line about how some mobs in HoT might get evasion, thus making Weakness have more counterplay in PvE. It’s encouraging to hear, if done right.

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Posted by: Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Honestly if you want armor diversity (IDK why you would), get rid of dodging, get rid of all forms of passive defense, make mobs have more clear-cut agro rules.

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

Honestly if you want armor diversity (IDK why you would), get rid of dodging, get rid of all forms of passive defense, make mobs have more clear-cut agro rules.

I don’t agree, active defense and dodging should be integral to gameplay regardless of how tanky you are.

Back when hard bunker was still a thing in sPvP(still is to an extent), active defense was an integral part of combat play.

As a matter of fact, I think active defense should play an even bigger importance if you decide to run any form of toughness heavy build.

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Posted by: Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Honestly if you want armor diversity (IDK why you would), get rid of dodging, get rid of all forms of passive defense, make mobs have more clear-cut agro rules.

I don’t agree, active defense and dodging should be integral to gameplay regardless of how tanky you are.

Back when hard bunker was still a thing in sPvP(still is to an extent), active defense was an integral part of combat play.

As a matter of fact, I think active defense should play an even bigger importance if you decide to run any form of toughness heavy build.

Well in PvP hardly anyone is running all zerker.

I thought we were talking about PvE here.

In highly scripted content, active defense means you don’t need passive defense from armor if you’re good. That’s how the game was built. If people want to make defensive roles more important in PvE scripted encounters, one needs to remove the party’s ability to negate damage from active dodging or from skills that cause aegis, blind, block etc.

(edited by Nevets Crimsonwing.5271)

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

In highly scripted content, active defense means you don’t need passive defense from armor if you’re good. That’s how the game was built. If people want to make defensive roles more important in PvE scripted encounters, one needs to remove the party’s ability to negate damage from active dodging or from skills that cause aegis, blind, block etc.

Which is why, in other threads that address gearing issues like this, we’ve seen others request for faster-attacking creatures, instead of a lumber once/3-sec that we see on most of them. Lower the damage of each hit, obviously, but guarantee some damage and let players decide how to manage it.

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Posted by: Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271

In highly scripted content, active defense means you don’t need passive defense from armor if you’re good. That’s how the game was built. If people want to make defensive roles more important in PvE scripted encounters, one needs to remove the party’s ability to negate damage from active dodging or from skills that cause aegis, blind, block etc.

Which is why, in other threads that address gearing issues like this, we’ve seen others request for faster-attacking creatures, instead of a lumber once/3-sec that we see on most of them. Lower the damage of each hit, obviously, but guarantee some damage and let players decide how to manage it.

There is content like this in the game. Think Old Tom on the asura fractal. What is the simplest way to deal with all those tiny poison bolts? An ele with an earth elemental or a ranger with a bear pet.

My point is if you want to change the zerk meta, you have to change the fundamentals of the game.

Another example are the giant husks for the triple wurm event. Usually organized groups will form a team of condi players to take care of those.

But in instanced content you’ll max out most conditions with one or two players, leaving the other party members feeling redundant.

I think the easiest thing to do to at least encourage dedicated condition players is to remove the condition cap and adjust a number of condi build ramp up times so it doesn’t take so long to actually start doing DoT.

For example, the fastest engineer solos are with Sinister gear. For enemies with a decent health bar, a condition engineer with sinister stats will do more net DPS with sinister than a zerk engineer. But that’s almost entirely useless in a full party because of condition cap and ramp up time.

But even if people get condi armor, their place in the party is still fundamentally going to be dependent on DPS, because that’s how the game was fundamentally designed.

(edited by Nevets Crimsonwing.5271)

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Posted by: AegisRunestone.8672

AegisRunestone.8672

My issue with ‘nerfing’ zerker builds is that, while everyone complains that other builds aren’t feasible, nerfing zerker will just make THAT build unfeasible. The point should be to make ALL builds feasible based on play-style, not by game design.

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

People use Zerker builds because the damage in fractals is so kitten high (on the upper end) that everything one shots you, regardless of what you are wearing or what your build is. There is literally no point in using anything other than zerk.

I have heard talks about expansion content being more difficult and upping fractal levels, this will only result in further reinforcing zerker builds. For the cicle to be broken, ARMOR and HEALING need to actually matter, not the other way around.

Does this mean tanking? NO. But it does mean that bosses will not 1 shot you, may be 2 shot you or 3, but in between you have time to react and adjust, something that zerker would ideally not allow.

1. My hammer guardian says “hello” with massive toughness, 30k health, and the ability to tank archdiviner, mai trin, and molten duo. Oh, and defensive buffs out her pink leafy kitten .

2. Difficulty does not reinforce the zerker meta. If kitten kills you faster than you die now, it’s not because it’s doing too much damage. It means you’re bad at actively defending yourself or paying attention. Very rarely are there 1-hit downs that have no tell. Archdiviner’s hammer jump in the beginning? Enough time to dodge (if you want). Mai trin’s Potshot of Horrifying Death? Few seconds to get ready and dodge.

3. You mean what current “pro” level teams can run? I’ve done the same fractals, at the same tier, with two different classes (team comp was the same), and I had LESS issues with the fractals with my Guardian than I did with my zerker grenadier engi.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

I think the point of zerker armor is not that defensive armor doesn’t work, it’s that there is no need for it.

Who cares if you have 50k toughness and 500k Health. If you play the game well it doesn’t matter if you have 20 health or 20,000 health because you can use active defenses to ignore ALL damage.

Once you are good enough at the game the only difference between full defensive armor and zerker armor is that things take 100x longer to die.

The best way to learn the game is to put on zerker armor and make yourself learn it.

The other armor types function just fine, they are just not needed.

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

I think the point of zerker armor is not that defensive armor doesn’t work, it’s that there is no need for it.

Who cares if you have 50k toughness and 500k Health. If you play the game well it doesn’t matter if you have 20 health or 20,000 health because you can use active defenses to ignore ALL damage.

Once you are good enough at the game the only difference between full defensive armor and zerker armor is that things take 100x longer to die.

The best way to learn the game is to put on zerker armor and make yourself learn it.

The other armor types function just fine, they are just not needed.

Hardly “not needed.” Frankly if that’s your viewpoint, you arent doing game content where they ARE needed and recommended. The whole “because I dont see a use for these armor stats they must not be needed” mentality is a crippled mentality.

Besides, even active defenses run out at some point. What are you going to do then? Zerker builds pretty much have one last huzzah and then go splat. Builds with defensive stats and tweaks can withstand it and keep going.

Beyond that still, if you have crap for health, and suffer from “pug syndrome,” zerker aint gonna save you when your party starts dropping like flies. Being built the way I am, I can pick up the flies so they can keep doing damage. To that extent, their damage is my damage because I’m keeping them alive. But I suppose it’s a lost cause on people who really dont care to hear, see, or understand that they’re wrong.

It’s unfortunate that the “ZERK IS GREAT” mentality borders on religious fanaticism.

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Posted by: Krestfallen.8025

Krestfallen.8025

It’s unfortunate that the “ZERK IS GREAT” mentality borders on religious fanaticism.

I’ve been thinking this a lot myself recently. In “the old days” we still had the zerker meta, but people were willing to talk about it, “troubleshoot” various and creative ways other stat combos might be brought up to par (not DPS wise, but desirability wise. Not that anyone seriously thought Anet was going to implement their think-tanks, but still).

But more and more these days I’m noticing a very vocal faction that genuinely believes that Zerker armor is “The One True Gearset.” They argue (quite aggressively) that Arena Net intended for everyone to eventually end up in Zerker gear, that all other stat combos were purposefully made to be subpar compared to Zerker, and— perhaps most terrifying— that any attempts to make options/choice/diversity even a little more varied will somehow “destroy” the game irrevocably, regardless of what approach one might take (wether it’s character-side centric, or AI/Encounter design centric).

To acknowledge that builds which employ Zerker gear are the most “optimal” in the current PvE environment is one thing, but I find the fervid belief that Arena Net would create (and continue to create) all kinds of Stat Combos, Traits, and Utilities that are intentionally meant to serve no function (because they are non-zerk, or do not synergize with the zerk stat spread) genuinely bizarre.

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Posted by: Hannelore.8153

Hannelore.8153

I find that builds that are half way between damage and defense and tend to combine conditions with autohits work relatively well to survive and do damage in all content (especially WvW and Silverwastes). You do not need berserker gear, nor do you need nomads or PVT gear. There are other options, many different combinations that produce pretty good results (even celestial if used properly).

I think the point of zerker armor is not that defensive armor doesn’t work, it’s that there is no need for it.

Who cares if you have 50k toughness and 500k Health. If you play the game well it doesn’t matter if you have 20 health or 20,000 health because you can use active defenses to ignore ALL damage.

Once you are good enough at the game the only difference between full defensive armor and zerker armor is that things take 100x longer to die.

The best way to learn the game is to put on zerker armor and make yourself learn it.

The other armor types function just fine, they are just not needed.

Between worst gear set (nomads) and best gear set (berserker) it takes only 2.5x as long for enemies to die and that is assuming that you use no conditions and every person in your party is wearing the worst possible gear. You also lose some DPS while dodging and during many other “active defense” moves.

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(edited by Hannelore.8153)

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

It’s unfortunate that the “ZERK IS GREAT” mentality borders on religious fanaticism.

And on the other side of things, the extreme obsession people have with “changing the meta” (as in, to make the builds they like good) borders on religious fanaticism too, so why make a statement like that when it applies to both parties?

Difference is, people who follow the meta don’t incessantly post threads about it all the time whereas people on the other side are constantly ranting about it to the dismay of literally everyone who has to read the forum.

I’ve been thinking this a lot myself recently. In “the old days” we still had the zerker meta, but people were willing to talk about it, “troubleshoot” various and creative ways other stat combos might be brought up to par (not DPS wise, but desirability wise. Not that anyone seriously thought Anet was going to implement their think-tanks, but still).

Well, no. The meta now is more open than it’s ever been. After a few revelations, guilds became a lot more open and willing to test suggestions as long as either there seemed to be some sort of decent justification for why it’s good or if it’s backed by a known member of the community (it was actually a few of us in high-end guilds which even convinced people that phalanx strength was a good trait, you’re welcome).

They argue (quite aggressively) that Arena Net intended for everyone to eventually end up in Zerker gear, that all other stat combos were purposefully made to be subpar compared to Zerker,

Subpar in the sense of speed of clearing content, yes. If you strip your character down to the bare minimum of defensive stats, you should be rewarded accordingly. If we look at two extremes, there is no way a nomad character should be clearing content anywhere near as quickly as a berserker one, because otherwise risk = reward doesn’t exist.

perhaps most terrifying— that any attempts to make options/choice/diversity even a little more varied will somehow “destroy” the game irrevocably, regardless of what approach one might take (wether it’s character-side centric, or AI/Encounter design centric).

Suggestions generally consist of forced roles, and in a game where you are encouraged to play however you want and where content is meant to be achievable by any variation of classes and players of varying skill level, imposing forced roles runs completely counter to that, and yes it would destroy the very principles the game was founded on. Forced roles aren’t the answer. Different roles which can be performed by a number of different classes are. To take the simple example of the husks in the wurm event, engineers, necromancers and warriors, rangers even mesmers are the classes that can output a large amount of conditions. There you go, a role, and you weren’t forced in to running a specific class. Projectile defense is another role that isn’t class specific. Warriors, mesmers, guardians, elementalists, thieves, rangers, engineers all have varying amounts of projectile defense skills. The key thing to note about these two functions I’ve mentioned is that for most content they’re not even strictly necessary. You can clear fractals without projectile defense. it’ll be painful, but you can do it. it’s not like a tank where you basically have one or you can’t progress.

To acknowledge that builds which employ Zerker gear are the most “optimal” in the current PvE environment is one thing, but I find the fervid belief that Arena Net would create (and continue to create) all kinds of Stat Combos, Traits, and Utilities that are intentionally meant to serve no function (because they are non-zerk, or do not synergize with the zerk stat spread) genuinely bizarre.

or maybe, people here forget that PvP and WvW exist where a whole ton of stat combinations are used. the game doesn’t revolve entirely around PvE and people need to realise this.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Hayashi.3416

Hayashi.3416

Between worst gear set (nomads) and best gear set (berserker) it takes only 2.5x as long for enemies to die and that is assuming that you use no conditions and every person in your party is wearing the worst possible gear. You also lose some DPS while dodging and during many other “active defense” moves.

Base power is 916. For something to take 2.5x less to die, you need 2.5x the damage, which in power is 2290. A full PTV thief is 2788 with zero crit, which is not 2.5×. It’s slightly more than 3 times.

Now we add critrate. A berserker thief will full damage spec will crit 100% of the time with 2.2x damage per crit, so it’s actually 6.6 times for one player. Assuming all the players in a party use the same build, a full damage spec will kill something 6.6 times faster. This is more pronounced for warriors, which have a higher natural critdmg%, and less pronounced for rangers, since their power stat is worth less than other classes owing to their multiplier being reduced because of their pet.

We assume, of course, that the same traits are used. Full tank defensive specs against full damage offensive specs are an even greater difference. Warriors also don’t really lose much DPS when dodging as their dodge in itself deals damage, s/p thieves use the Pistol Whip iFrames rather than dodging… etc etc.

Consider what 6.6 times means. if we had 4 players in Nomad’s gear in a dungeon, the sum total of their damage is 4/6.6, which is barely 2/3 the damage of a single player in a full-glass spec (full-glass is sometimes Berserker, sometimes Sinister, sometimes a mix of Berserker and Assassin). If the single player in full-glass gear did not ever get downed, 60% of your entire dungeon is being done by one player. That’s worse than if you had 5 players in full glass, and 3 of them were dead ALL THE TIME.

Lastly, Nomad’s is not the worst set. It’s the lowest-offense stat, but even Nomad feels good about itself when it looks at Magi. Magi has no power or condition damage for its crits to do anything at all, it has no toughness to amplify its healing power stat, its last stat is vitality that gives no sustained survivability even though with pathetic damage, long-term sustain IS the kind of survivability you need, and of course… its major stat is Healing Power… the lowest-scaling statistic type of all.

Learn math before trying to look cool.

Your hubris makes my calculator cry.

(edited by Hayashi.3416)

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Posted by: Krestfallen.8025

Krestfallen.8025

It’s unfortunate that the “ZERK IS GREAT” mentality borders on religious fanaticism.

And on the other side of things, the extreme obsession people have with “changing the meta” (as in, to make the builds they like good) borders on religious fanaticism too, so why make a statement like that when it applies to both parties?

You are of course, correct. There are extremists on both sides and quite often attempts at conversations on the subject are drowned out by these polarized Zealots. It is a good reminder that you pointed this out.

Difference is, people who follow the meta don’t incessantly post threads about it all the time whereas people on the other side are constantly ranting about it to the dismay of literally everyone who has to read the forum.

Perhaps because it’s an issue that is important to them, and just as, over the past three years— we saw post after post of people wishing for some sort of feedback/solution to the “condition problem,” (some) people would enjoy hearing and/or seeing something from Arena Net that clarifies their stance and/or activities regarding this subject.

Heaven forbid people come to the forums to discuss what’s important to them. Oh! And I also forgot the part in the EULA where it’s stated that all player’s must read every single post, wether their interested in seeing it’s content or not.

or maybe, people here forget that PvP and WvW exist where a whole ton of stat combinations are used. the game doesn’t revolve entirely around PvE and people need to realise this.

Given that the OP began this discussion by talking about fractals and that I stated specifically that the Zerker stat was optimal in PvE, I assumed it was relatively clear that we were discussing this subject from a PvE standpoint. But then I suppose it is significantly easier to point at the other game modes and say “see, everything is just fine,” and pretend that those game types somehow impact PvE than it is to actually talk to people. ^.^

(edited by Krestfallen.8025)

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

Honestly if you want armor diversity (IDK why you would), get rid of dodging, get rid of all forms of passive defense, make mobs have more clear-cut agro rules.

Getting rid of those things doesn’t diversity builds … it just shifts the meta to something else more healing/armor/HP focused.