Guild Wars 2

I thank you before hand for having the respect to give me the opportunity to contribute to the vertical progression CDI even though it is already closed (which is also why I limited this to just skills), and I hope I will at least contributed with some new ideas or ways to increase vertical skill progression that have not yet been mentioned. And or at least present ideas in a vertical progressive way…

Unfortunatly I joined the CDI vertical progression discussions way to late. I know they are now closed and that the information will be examined and in say 3 to 6months from now we will be seeing the results from these discussions (though some aspects may well see the light of day earlier than that I am sure ).

Now I have a few ideas for a more extended way to include vertical SKILL progression, which I just wouldn’t like to see missing from the options available to Anet to include vertical progression as a whole, hence this ‘errata’ to the discussion :P
If we can keep this discussion solely about this idea or alternatives/improvements to parts of it, we can avoid having to repeat the whole CDI discussion. Which, I am sure, will be appreciated by everyone .. so here it goes ..

1a. Add specific themed basic skills to all weapons (pertaining to that weapon), that are the same for all professions. These basic skills could be ‘discovered’ in a similar fashion as the weapon-skills are now.

1b. Let the player unlock the specific profession weapon skills by spending skill points, and offer the choice to slot these skills instead of the basic skills.
-!- by inserting skills at the front of the vertical progression system, the whole of vertical progression is increased, the power-feel curve is increased as the player moves from basic skills to profession skills; this part may also offer a bit of horizontal progression, as with basic skills on weapon, all weapons could be available to all professions at the basic level, while still be restricted for the profession specific skills; added bonus is that once this system is in place, expansion of profession skills for weapons is fairly easy, and seeing this system would need a ‘set #X skill to profession skill’-coding it will help realize 2.

2. Add 2 more skills to weapon slots #2 and #4 and let the player both unlock and choose between these skills.
-!- The #2 and #4 skill slots are the slots that are most suitable for choice skills, these slots do not mess up the Thief profession, and will also mean that 2 handed weapons and 1 handed / offhanded weapons will not start to differ in skill choices. Added bonus is that a choice system needed to make this suggestion a reality also helps in realizing suggestion 1. And of course balancing these skills for Anet is still fairly easy (the whole of options isn’t increased dramatically, and the now 3 skills can be balanced against themselves), while at the same time it will increase the amount of choices we as players have to play these weapons, yet not to such an extend that it skews competitive play.

3. this covers the current progression, added here to see the whole overview of vertical skill progression in the game, including the suggestions
While you can argue about whether you like the slot unlocking and gated skill tree, it is a way to foster vertical progression. By putting both 1 & 2 into the game, the competition for skill points, especially at the first halve of the game, increases, making choices more meaning full and harder. This in my view increases the depth of the system.

4. Put skill unlocks and availability in the trait system by adding skills to each ‘lane’ for the 20pt and 30pt unlock. Make these skills specific for the trait category (power, etc.) and only available for choice as utility skills if the points are spend in this ‘lane’.
-!- The trait unlocks are part of the current vertical progression system, and while you can unlock all weapon and utility skills by doing skill challenges, these trait skills will only unlock when you are able to spend the spend the points. This means that skill progress (how ever small) is on going at least until lvl60. Added bonus to this way of acquiring skills is that the amount of extra skills available to each player is only increased by the already balanced number of trait points that can be spend. Also, the choice on how to spend these points is further complicated (made deeper) by the skills that are now part of it.

5. already hinted at by Anet, but merely as a possible option, and more then likely come up in the CDI thread
Introduce specialisations/sub-professions available after reaching level80. (unfortunately I was to late to be part of the entire CDI discussion, but I will assume that the following points were discussed in the CDI thread) These sub-professions:
- Should be at least a choice of 3 different ones.
- Should be easily switchable.
- Should include an equal number of themed utility skills for all sub-professions
- Should be balanced against all other skills, aka. the difference should be thematic or option increasing, and not be more powerful by default.
- Could easily consist of 2 tiers with 3 skills per tier. (or 3 / 2)

Other ways to include skills in a vertical progression fashion.
- link skills to the orders, and a specific order quest(s)
- link skills to dungeon completion
- link skills to quest completion within the personal story, most noticeably would be some of the racial skills. Obviously addition of some specific racial quests and a racial loyalty system could make these skills (and possibly emissary racial armour) available to all players.
- While more of a horizontal progression, adding in more profession related skills to weapons currently not available to a profession would be a way to include more skills. If these were un-lockable by spending skill points, as achieved by suggestion 1 & 2 above, these would at the same time become part of vertical progression.

I would say there are a lot of ways to include more skill and/or more vertical skill progression into GW2.

Arghore.8340:

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Other ways to include skills in a vertical progression fashion.
- link skills to the orders, and a specific order quest(s)
- link skills to dungeon completion
- link skills to quest completion within the personal story, most noticeably would be some of the racial skills. Obviously addition of some specific racial quests and a racial loyalty system could make these skills (and possibly emissary racial armour) available to all players.
- While more of a horizontal progression, adding in more profession related skills to weapons currently not available to a profession would be a way to include more skills. If these were un-lockable by spending skill points, as achieved by suggestion 1 & 2 above, these would at the same time become part of vertical progression.

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I would say there are a lot of ways to include more skill and/or more vertical skill progression into GW2.

All good ideas except for a few things in this portion. Everything that is introduced should be linked to stuff that players do after reaching 80. It shouldn’t be tied to some personal story or order quest you did in December of last year.

People that are leveling from 0 to 80 are already getting new skills as they level. The progression needs to occur in NEW content introduce after 80, not retroactively through old content.

Which ones are you thinking off? As far as I can see all of them could become lvl80+ content. Even if for new players or alts these paths are included in the personal story, with the scaling system there is no reason why lvl80 players could not be called to a specific cause?

I would prefer that “vertical” and “skill” not be used conceptually together. Skill or ability progression is usually a key component of horizontal progression. Google horizontal and vertical progression and you will notice this.

There is enough confusion around terms in this game. The common player, at least on the forums, doesn’t understand what the terms PvP and PvE mean. I would really prefer that we address vertical progression with the term ‘vertical’ and leave skills and abilities with ‘horizontal’.

if that skills give a statistical advantage, and are acquired with a great time\money\effort …it’s vertical progression IMHO.

if it’s more a part of a “customisation”, for example part of a specific skill path that is not directly “better” than standard skills, I’d name it horizontal

Kevan.8912:

if that skills give a statistical advantage, and are acquired with a great time\money\effort …it’s vertical progression IMHO.

if it’s more a part of a “customisation”, for example part of a specific skill path that is not directly “better” than standard skills, I’d name it horizontal

Statistical advantage is the key to understanding vertical progression. The stat advantage is usually conferred through gear, but it could be through infusions to existing gear.

Skill progression generally provides a way to achieve character progression in a way that does not raise the power level of the game. Because skill or ability progression is such a key component of conventional horizontal progression, I don’t believe the term ‘vertical’ should be associated with it at all. And, I don’t believe we should have any stats conferred through skills for the same reason—we really shouldn’t muddy the concepts of vertical and horizontal progression.

So, my 100 Blades can be 1000 Blades if i spam it enough ?

I am okay with this.

@Raine, well I see your point, but if you played GW2 you will have noticed that a lot of the mechanics are gated in a vertical way, vertical being ‘as you level up’. Now it isn’t said that the skills you get later are also the ones being stronger, it’s just that they are gated in the vertical sense of character level to provide each level with some sort of progression.

Arghore.8340:

@Raine, well I see your point, but if you played GW2 you will have noticed that a lot of the mechanics are gated in a vertical way, vertical being ‘as you level up’. Now it isn’t said that the skills you get later are also the ones being stronger, it’s just that they are gated in the vertical sense of character level to provide each level with some sort of progression.

Yes, it’s interesting to realize that 1-80 is vertical progression in every sense of the term. GW1 had vertical progression of that nature, levels, but it stopped at max level gear at max level. The stop was hard and Mike O of Anet was able to say that GW1 had no vertical progression. Since most games offer a leveling experience regardless of whether they scale the game vertically or horizontally, the direction they go post max level really determines whether the have VP or HP.

I still think that when you are using the word progression and a directional people will read vertical as having to do with power and horizontal as having to do with an expanded character (usually in terms of skills).

What do you think about just using the term skill progression and if you need to speak to the leveling period, use leveling skill progression?