Guild Wars 2

I know this tends to be a heated topic on the forums, between those who are X guildwars 1 fans and those who are X other MMO fands. However on the same note it would be fair to say that GW2 is an mmo while GW1 was less of one with how it was designed as such the progression should have both.

Here is the general thought to appease both crowds and make an interesting way to progress. First off we have Fractals which as of right now is strictly vertical in terms of progression as its above exotics, Ascended gear has also another key feature in that it provides a Resistance. That resistance allows you to progress vertically within fractals as you need agony resistance.

Well why not take that same theme and provide it to new sets of dungeons that come.

So right now you have something like this:
Legendary
Ascended
Exotic

Well with dungeons to come it could look like this:
Legendary
Ascended , B Resistance, C resistance
Exotic

With this you have both forms of vertical and horizontal progression, horizontal in the sense that past exotics you can pick any of the dungeons and vertical within those dungeons to reach the top of them.

Warruz.8096:

Here is the general thought to appease both crowds

You are not going to please both groups, considering how they have opposite views. ArenaNet should learn that they, too, won’t please both groups – if they try, the best they can do is build something that is “meh” to everyone and great to no one.

The core problem is that the players complaining about ‘not having horizontal progression like in GW1’ are so off base about GW1 that it is confusing the conversation.

GW1, for example, had a MASSIVE vertical progression… it just wasn’t in terms of gear. Its true that gear capped out with perfect weapons, but if you took a character that had just hit 20 and had a perfect weapon versus one that had been 20 for a long time and had a perfect weapon there was no comparison. The vertical progression was in the form of grinding for skill points for buying a variety of different increasingly powerful skills, completing the missions for your extra attribute points, completing content to obtain more heroes, etc…

My newly minted level 20 with an awesome bow a guild mate gave me could barely solo Nightfall missions. After a long time grinding to build my skill list, obtaining heroes, etc… I could solo Glint’s Challenge AFK and I soloed all the points for my Kurzick faction armor by doing speed runs with just my heroes.

One might complain that the grind now is gear oriented rather than skill point oriented, which would be a valid complaint, but that isn’t what I am seeing people griping about.

The majority of the complains seem to be ‘I don’t want any kind of tread mill — give me more interesting content instead.’

A reality check — it takes 3-5 years of a team of 100+ to make a content heavy game that the typical player will blow though in 50 hours or so. ANet has already done an amazing job of adding content with the Holiday patches (better than any other MMO company I can think of), but even that content takes a day or so to finish.

No company in existence can realistically add content faster than player can finish it. The only option is to make content that is replayable because of the mechanics (think of FPS’s like Call of Duty or Halo or multiplayer RTS like Starcraft) or add treadmills (which is the modern day equivalent of ‘points’ in a game like Pacman).

There is already ‘mechanic’ oriented replayable content in the form of WvW and sPvP which I hope they continue to improve (though they need brackets for sPvP as soon as possible or sPvP is dead soon).

And while I seriously hope that ANet continues to attempt to add new content like the Holiday activities, I am realistic enough to know that they are also going to have to add treadmill oriented content like gear, skill point, or level based power progression or the game is just going to run out of things for us to do.

You couldn’t be more wrong bluejay. Grinding skill points IS horizontal progression. Due to the nature of the 8 slot skillbar you plateau your powerlevel. Gaining new skills didn’t gain you more power it made you more versatile. So while you are able to do specific content easier it doesn’t mean the other player can’t do it with the exact same build without grinding out skillpoints by thinking his builds ahead.

bluejay.6739:

The core problem is that the players complaining about ‘not having horizontal progression like in GW1’ are so off base about GW1 that it is confusing the conversation.

GW1, for example, had a MASSIVE vertical progression… it just wasn’t in terms of gear. Its true that gear capped out with perfect weapons, but if you took a character that had just hit 20 and had a perfect weapon versus one that had been 20 for a long time and had a perfect weapon there was no comparison. The vertical progression was in the form of grinding for skill points for buying a variety of different increasingly powerful skills, completing the missions for your extra attribute points, completing content to obtain more heroes, etc…

My newly minted level 20 with an awesome bow a guild mate gave me could barely solo Nightfall missions. After a long time grinding to build my skill list, obtaining heroes, etc… I could solo Glint’s Challenge AFK and I soloed all the points for my Kurzick faction armor by doing speed runs with just my heroes.

You were doing something VERY wrong in GW1. I rolled more alts than I would like to count, and before I hit 20 I already had a large compliment of heroes (and really only needed 3 to get the job done. After that I could run 4 henchmen just to supplement them since the 3 heroes + me could beat everything no problem.

For me, the moment I hit 20 I was gold. Eventually I would work up to more skills, but since I had access to BiS gear right off the bat I could make do with what I had. The amount of plat I would pick up from 1-20 was more than enough to cover my armor, some semi-decent skills and some weapons for my heroes.

And this is all recently. It was FAR easier still back when I started at release, in Prophecies, and then later when Factions released.

I’m not sure what in the world you did wrong in GW1, but your experience is VERY different from the rest of us. lol

Erasculio.2914:

Warruz.8096:

Here is the general thought to appease both crowds

You are not going to please both groups, considering how they have opposite views. ArenaNet should learn that they, too, won’t please both groups – if they try, the best they can do is build something that is “meh” to everyone and great to no one.

I think its entirely possible to do so , the key is to expand horizontally in a tier of gear while providing vertical progression within those areas. Just imagine there is two Fractals. You got fractals A and Fractals B.

Fractals A has agony
Fractals B has some other condition.

Fractals A requires agony resistance to progress further but is useless in Fractals B as it has a different condition. So you grow vertically in each section however the vertical progression is confined within that area. At the same point you can more horizontally easily within each but you wont be able to go to higher levels quickly.

At some point perhaps another tier of gear could be added way down the line but i think part of the problem was how quickly fractals was added which was strictly vertical but thats not to say they can plateau at that point for a bit and expand horizontally .

You cannot please both people who want hard-cap, limited vertical progression and those who want unlimited vertical progression. Period.

Conner.4702:

You couldn’t be more wrong bluejay. Grinding skill points IS horizontal progression. Due to the nature of the 8 slot skillbar you plateau your powerlevel. Gaining new skills didn’t gain you more power it made you more versatile. So while you are able to do specific content easier it doesn’t mean the other player can’t do it with the exact same build without grinding out skillpoints by thinking his builds ahead.

Yes and no. The meta game in GW1 made it a lot more like vertical progression than you are letting on.
You would grind skill points to get more skills to keep up with what other people were doing and how they were playing.

bluejay.6739:

The core problem is that the players complaining about ‘not having horizontal progression like in GW1’ are so off base about GW1 that it is confusing the conversation.

Uggh, you must have been a noob at GW1 for sure… Did you actually do FowSc or UwSc or any speedclear at all? GW1 is 100% horizontal. You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

Skills? you can unlock them from level 1 with tomes. How can you say that the skill system creates vertical prog.??? it’s not like you have to buy skill A to get skill B.. You choose whatever skill you’d like first. Ughh >_<

Please.. don’t talk kitten about gw1 if you don’t know how the game works.

CoRtex.2157:

bluejay.6739:

The core problem is that the players complaining about ‘not having horizontal progression like in GW1’ are so off base about GW1 that it is confusing the conversation.

Uggh, you must have been a noob at GW1 for sure… Did you actually do FowSc or UwSc or any speedclear at all? GW1 is 100% horizontal. You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

Skills? you can unlock them from level 1 with tomes. How can you say that the skill system creates vertical prog.??? it’s not like you have to buy skill A to get skill B.. You choose whatever skill you’d like first. Ughh >_<

Please.. don’t talk kitten about gw1 if you don’t know how the game works.

Huzzah!

CoRtex.2157:

You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

This sounds an awful lot like GW2, just so you know.

getzzzonked.7609:

Conner.4702:

You couldn’t be more wrong bluejay. Grinding skill points IS horizontal progression. Due to the nature of the 8 slot skillbar you plateau your powerlevel. Gaining new skills didn’t gain you more power it made you more versatile. So while you are able to do specific content easier it doesn’t mean the other player can’t do it with the exact same build without grinding out skillpoints by thinking his builds ahead.

Yes and no. The meta game in GW1 made it a lot more like vertical progression than you are letting on.
You would grind skill points to get more skills to keep up with what other people were doing and how they were playing.

What a load of kittens. The small fee for a skill was a higher “grind” than getting the measly 15k XP for a skill point and the only meta to speak of was the one in PVP and there you didnt need skill points at all.

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

This sounds an awful lot like GW2, just so you know.

It did till ascended gear was introduced. After that “buying max stuff” and the “getting it anywhere” parts are a clear distinction.

CoRtex.2157:

Uggh, you must have been a noob at GW1 for sure… Did you actually do FowSc or UwSc or any speedclear at all? GW1 is 100% horizontal. You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things.

If I remember correctly, which I certainly do, speedclears required a rather set skillbar, true you could do anything with any skills, after you reached 20, but that would’ve never been optimal in any way… Not even doing a simple Vanquish in a low level area is possible without serious tweaking. That’s a sort of vertical progression on it’s own, you just couldn’t compete without some skills, you had to go get them. Not to mention the obvious progression in Reputation lines, like having a high Lightbringer title to run Hard Mode DoA… There was vertical progression in GW1 and you certainly couldn’t run anything when you just hit 20.

I play and play again GW2 and can’t find a place (other than high end Fractals with Agony) that require any specific gear to play. I run so many dungeons at their “indicated” levels with green gear and had no problems with it, there is nobody forcing you to get anything to do the dungeon, but to “speedclear” them you do, in a way that’s how GW1 worked as well in that regard.

Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

Yes those Superior Runes of Vigor were certainly cheap and available any time you wanted. Maybe for someone who had been playing for 5 years everything was cheap, but for newer players it certainly wasn’t. Also, in order to be able to play solo you certainly had to equip not one character, but a few (Heroes) equiping all of them wasn’t cheap at all.

Skills? you can unlock them from level 1 with tomes. How can you say that the skill system creates vertical prog.??? it’s not like you have to buy skill A to get skill B.. You choose whatever skill you’d like first. Ughh >_<

Again you think from the perspective of a 5-year Guild Wars 1 veteran, not a new player. And in Guild Wars 2 you can farm dungeon tokens to buy gear for your low levels (just like what you did with the tomes) and you can even trade your Ascended rings among your characters…. What’s the difference?

SonicTHI.3217:

It did till ascended gear was introduced. After that “buying max stuff” and the “getting it anywhere” parts are a clear distinction.

How did Ascended gear changed this?

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

This sounds an awful lot like GW2, just so you know.

Not really, you could get lvl 20 in 1 day in gw1. It’s not a grind, in GW2 you have to grind for days & days to get 80, i can’t do CoF after 1 day, i can’t ectos after 1 day, i can’t get T6 mats after 1 day. Yes when you are 80 everything is open. Still it needs alot of grinding until you get there. In gw1 leveling is something you can do verry fast and doesn’t count in the progession list. Still, gw2 also has alot of horizontal aspects the only problem is the gear. So to max your character, you need exotic, which takes some money. That’s fine, but the thing that makes it vertical is that when you want to change your build, you need to have new armor to max out your character. You can’t just switch from dmg to support at max potential. If it wasn’t for crafting, it would even be harder to change your gear. Exotics (as max gear) are more expensive than max gear in gw1. And gw1 armor didn’t have stats on them, only cheap runes. So it was easy to switch

CoRtex.2157:

Uggh, you must have been a noob at GW1 for sure… Did you actually do FowSc or UwSc or any speedclear at all? GW1 is 100% horizontal. You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

Skills? you can unlock them from level 1 with tomes. How can you say that the skill system creates vertical prog.??? it’s not like you have to buy skill A to get skill B.. You choose whatever skill you’d like first. Ughh >_<

Please.. don’t talk kitten about gw1 if you don’t know how the game works.

Oh man, there’s so much rose colored kitten here.

First of all, you can’t just do things. There’s always several pre-requisites. Why do I say that? Because I played an elementalist that started in prophecy and had a hard time doing content related stuff in Nightfall. Sure, you had no problems when you have a Nightfall character who played the story quests anyway, but if you didn’t, you had to do a LOOOOT of unnecessary stuff to get to the stuff you actually need.

Tomes? Certainly not all of them. For my good skills I had to go to mobs and use Signet of Capture to get it.

And with this skill system the progression was vertical. My ele played like kittening kitten till I captured all the skills to get a proper build. I couldn’t play PvP, I couldn’t play the endgame parts of PvE because my character and henchmen were so underwhelming. Horizontal my kitten

SonicTHI.3217:

getzzzonked.7609:

Conner.4702:

You couldn’t be more wrong bluejay. Grinding skill points IS horizontal progression. Due to the nature of the 8 slot skillbar you plateau your powerlevel. Gaining new skills didn’t gain you more power it made you more versatile. So while you are able to do specific content easier it doesn’t mean the other player can’t do it with the exact same build without grinding out skillpoints by thinking his builds ahead.

Yes and no. The meta game in GW1 made it a lot more like vertical progression than you are letting on.
You would grind skill points to get more skills to keep up with what other people were doing and how they were playing.

What a load of kittens. The small fee for a skill was a higher “grind” than getting the measly 15k XP for a skill point and the only meta to speak of was the one in PVP and there you didnt need skill points at all.

As Enzi said, as new content was released you weren’t able to stay the same and not change up how you play. Apologies for saying meta and making you rage so hard you kitten yourself.

I play and play again GW2 and can’t find a place (other than high end Fractals with Agony) that require any specific gear to play. I run so many dungeons at their “indicated” levels with green gear and had no problems with it, there is nobody forcing you to get anything to do the dungeon, but to “speedclear” them you do, in a way that’s how GW1 worked as well in that regard.

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

Yes those Superior Runes of Vigor were certainly cheap and available any time you wanted. Maybe for someone who had been playing for 5 years everything was cheap, but for newer players it certainly wasn’t. Also, in order to be able to play solo you certainly had to equip not one character, but a few (Heroes) equiping all of them wasn’t cheap at all.

Yeah, sure that was like the only rune, and you could get a cheap one that gave you 41hp instead of 50, wooptidoo

Again you think from the perspective of a 5-year Guild Wars 1 veteran, not a new player. And in Guild Wars 2 you can farm dungeon tokens to buy gear for your low levels (just like what you did with the tomes) and you can even trade your Ascended rings among your characters…. What’s the difference?

You don’t have to farm tomes, you can buy them for 800g each, they are even cheaper than buying skills at a skill trainer. yeah, you need to unlock them first, but hey with dual professions & another character, you can easly do that or you play pvp for 30minutes. The chance that you have to use tomes because you can’t buy them somewhere close to you, is kinda small you know.

Enzi.5496:

First of all, you can’t just do things. There’s always several pre-requisites. Why do I say that? Because I played an elementalist that started in prophecy and had a hard time doing content related stuff in Nightfall. Sure, you had no problems when you have a Nightfall character who played the story quests anyway, but if you didn’t, you had to do a LOOOOT of unnecessary stuff to get to the stuff you actually need.

Tomes? Certainly not all of them. For my good skills I had to go to mobs and use Signet of Capture to get it.

And with this skill system the progression was vertical. My ele played like kittening kitten till I captured all the skills to get a proper build. I couldn’t play PvP, I couldn’t play the endgame parts of PvE because my character and henchmen were so underwhelming. Horizontal my kitten

How can you even say that lol How long does it take for you to get all your skills for your build rofl? :P it takes me like an hour when i create a new character. Keep in mind that tomes don’t require skillpoints.

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

And yet, you could get to the point when you didn’t need to look for anything more in about a week (that includes advancing storylines to unlock access to several areas). And you didn’t even need to work for it too much – if you did, i bet you could do it in day-two tops.

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

You need max armor to be sure you don’t get 1 hitted unless it’s a boss mechanic that you can dodge because of your knowledge. That should be the main role of MAX armor. What decides if max armor is vertical or horizontal is the way you get it. Not the way it’s being used. Also i would like to see dungeons not based on your gear but rather on the skills you have. Max armor should be a requirement but should not be the reason why you can succesfully complete the dungeon.

Erasculio.2914:

Warruz.8096:

Here is the general thought to appease both crowds

You are not going to please both groups, considering how they have opposite views. ArenaNet should learn that they, too, won’t please both groups – if they try, the best they can do is build something that is “meh” to everyone and great to no one.

Games can scale vertically or horizontally, not both. Well, they can, but what you will have is vertical progression with horizontal aspects. I don’t want to ride a gear treadmill anymore. I’ve done it for years. I know it inside and out. I know how to do it in the most efficient manner possible. I also know that it is a tired element in game design that needs to see the door: I don’t want to do it anymore.

If there is progression that scales vertically, I will, by definition, have to ride the treadmill. What I would like to see is a game developer step up to the plate and offer players an alternative. I had hoped that GW2 would be that alternative.

Astralporing.1957:

And yet, you could get to the point when you didn’t need to look for anything more in about a week (that includes advancing storylines to unlock access to several areas). And you didn’t even need to work for it too much – if you did, i bet you could do it in day-two tops.

Is this bad? We then play the game at our own pace and distance, for our own enjoyment – having reached our statistical potential. We experiment with builds, we pursue cosmetic alternatives, we assist guild-mates. We work on titles that may not have any actual effect on any actual mechanics. We practice a certain skill set [PvP, WvW, Activities]. We organize ‘un-official’ events: large [district sponsoring, non-holiday holiday celebrations, et al.,] and small [screenshot caption contests, best photo contests, et al.,]. We put on our commander shields and look for junior players that could use a helping hand. [rambles on]

We could find ‘more’ without ‘needing’ to look for it.

CoRtex.2157:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

You need max armor to be sure you don’t get 1 hitted unless it’s a boss mechanic that you can dodge because of your knowledge. That’s the main role of MAX armor. What decides if max armor is vertical or horizontal is the way you get it. Not the way it’s being used.

False, I ran all paths of AC in blues and greens my first time out. You don’t require max gear to not get owned by mobs. you just need to not get hit by the mobs.

This is why the treadmill argument fails, this is not some spreadsheet-based combat like WoW, this combat relies on the skill of the player to not get hit.

Higher stats may mean more damage, but you have to be alive to deal that damage.

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

Raine.1394:

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward.

Perhaps the burning questions at this point that we wish we had the answers to: “How Much? and How Fast?”

Raine.1394:

*Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

At the moment, you (and many others) seem to be using this point as evidence as to why a gear treadmill will be implemented; that Ascended is a sign of continual Vertical progression to come and associated gated content based upon it. However, I don’t consider even the addition of the remainder of the Ascended tier of equipment to be a sign of progression as, provided that it forms a single step, this is not progression over time. It is a single point of progression which, by design philosophy, was intended to form a step between Exotic and Legendary, keeping in mind that Legendary gear is intended to take a substantial time to earn.

I may be proven incorrect in my concept of how the game will be maturing over time, but so might you. And in this manner, both of us are equally open to critical views on our opinions, based as they are on incomplete evidence. And I’ve yet to see a rebuff on these grounds that do not make as many assumptions as I do in denying it.

Raine.1394:

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

Could you link me to where the Devs explicitly stated that vertical progression would be implemented into GW2? I understand that there was mention of the addition of Ascended gear, but I’m more curious to see an actual statement pledging to vertical progression by a Dev member, or the addition of further tiers of gear potency/efficiency over time.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

The difference that you’re ignoring is that WoW’s is an exponential increase in power. This is how WoW gates content.

The low power curve, in conjunction with the combat mechanics, is not something you can dismiss. It’s the primary reason why the vertical progression in this game isn’t a treadmill in the same vein as WoW. These things aren’t as black and white as you’d have us believe.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

The difference that you’re ignoring is that WoW’s is an exponential increase in power. This is how WoW gates content.

The low power curve, in conjunction with the combat mechanics, is not something you can dismiss. It’s the primary reason why the vertical progression in this game isn’t a treadmill in the same vein as WoW. These things aren’t as black and white as you’d have us believe.

Have you played WoW at all? This game is just as much of a treadmill with fractals currently. Vertical Treadmill only implies that there is something with better stats. The grade of the power curve has absolutely nothing to do with it being a treadmill, only that it coerces(read forces) people into going for that next item. It could be 1 stat point or 20, but people want the best stats. As for content gating, what do you think Agony resist is? Content gating also does not change vertical progression. The treadmill is still there, you just have to wait to get on it.

In WoW you grind dungeons/raids to get a new item. In GW2 you grind fractals to get a new item. The difference between the two? nothing.

Now I’m sure you want to bring up that there isn’t supposed to be another tier of gear above ascended besides legendary, but ArenaNet is clever you see. They are hiding their gear treadmill by staggering out ascended items. So instead of releasing a whole tier of gear at once they are trying to make it appear that they aren’t doing a gear treadmill by doing a few pieces at a time. After all the pieces are out then it will be infusions, we’ve already caught a glimpse of some of the infusions to come if I remember correctly. So technically there won’t be a tier of gear better than ascended but you better believe you’ll still be on the gear treadmill trying to get that next ascended item or an infusion. What about after infusions? My guess is upping the level cap so the whole thing starts again, JUST LIKE WOW.

Just because WoW puts +2000 agility on an item doesn’t change that it’s the same vertical gear progression that GW2 now has. In fact early on the stat differences between T1 and T2 weren’t that big, As time goes by only then will we see what GW2’s power curve will be like, but again that doesn’t make it any less of a treadmill.

Distaste.4801:

Gw2’s progression is the same as WoW’s because numbers go up.

Wow. Great argument there.

Never mind all the rest of the mechanics that don’t line up with the design of WoW’s vertical progression.

Distaste.4801:

Have you played WoW at all? This game is just as much of a treadmill with fractals currently. Vertical Treadmill only implies that there is something with better stats. The grade of the power curve has absolutely nothing to do with it being a treadmill, only that it coerces(read forces) people into going for that next item. It could be 1 stat point or 20, but people want the best stats. As for content gating, what do you think Agony resist is? Content gating also does not change vertical progression. The treadmill is still there, you just have to wait to get on it.

The only ‘content’ one is gated out of by not acquiring agony-resistant equipment through Fractals is further levels of Fractals, the modules of which are not Fractal level-dependant ie; You see the same content in level 1 as you do level 30. The only difference that I’m aware of is a differing drop rate for equipment, but even this is only denying the opportunity for what could be considered a more efficient means to gather loot. I’d argue that is not ‘content’.

Distaste.4801:

Now I’m sure you want to bring up that there isn’t supposed to be another tier of gear above ascended besides legendary, but ArenaNet is clever you see. They are hiding their gear treadmill by staggering out ascended items. So instead of releasing a whole tier of gear at once they are trying to make it appear that they aren’t doing a gear treadmill by doing a few pieces at a time. After all the pieces are out then it will be infusions, we’ve already caught a glimpse of some of the infusions to come if I remember correctly. So technically there won’t be a tier of gear better than ascended but you better believe you’ll still be on the gear treadmill trying to get that next ascended item or an infusion. What about after infusions? My guess is upping the level cap so the whole thing starts again, JUST LIKE WOW.

The gist of this is just the prediction that a treadmill will occur. We already know that Ascended gear will be rolled out over time. Based on the current status of the game, we could make the presumption that acquiring it will allow us to complete current content more easily or that use of the Agony mechanic will be more prevalent in future content. We could also presume that Infusions will be introduced tailored to different but similar effects that Agony and Fractals currently share. But all of these are just predictions – you’ve no evidence that the game will progress in this way, just the fear that it will. I don’t even disagree that This Is a Thing That Might Happen, but you can’t base an entire argument, nor promote such scare tactics as I’ve seen some taking part in, around a hunch or your own personal experience in a similar scenario. It doesn’t wash.

Mackdose.6504:

False, I ran all paths of AC in blues and greens my first time out. You don’t require max gear to not get owned by mobs. you just need to not get hit by the mobs.

I bet this is why new mechanics were introduced that make dodging impossible, and can be mitigated by eq only (Jade maw agony attack). Expect to see more of those in the future.

proxy.7963:

Could you link me to where the Devs explicitly stated that vertical progression would be implemented into GW2? I understand that there was mention of the addition of Ascended gear, but I’m more curious to see an actual statement pledging to vertical progression by a Dev member, or the addition of further tiers of gear potency/efficiency over time.

Chris Whiteside AMA:

That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve

However we have no intention of adding a new Rarity of Gear such as Ascended. Instead and as we evolve the game existing Rarity’s will evolve over time

Through infusions and existing Tiers there will be the opportunity to increase stats or abilities on a low power curve through multiple types of gameplay in GW2.

The opportunity to enhance existing tiers of loot will not be through a regular cadence of monthly updates instead it is more likely to come from expansions or very big drops of content.

Mike o’Brien from the same AMA (those are even clearer):

How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.

But rephrase, perhaps to something like this: I want to play a reasonable number of hours per month and still be competitive, not falling behind a power curve that’s only accessible to those with the most time. Then that is more along the lines of what we said, and we intend to stick by it.

Especially the last one is telling – to not fall behind, we’ll be expected to continue playing “a reasonable number of hours per month”. Resonable for people that are not sure whether 250 t6 mats stacks (+ ecto) used for crafting aren’t a bit too much to be called “zero grind”

proxy.7963:

Raine.1394:

*Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

At the moment, you (and many others) seem to be using this point as evidence as to why a gear treadmill will be implemented; that Ascended is a sign of continual Vertical progression to come and associated gated content based upon it. However, I don’t consider even the addition of the remainder of the Ascended tier of equipment to be a sign of progression as, provided that it forms a single step, this is not progression over time. It is a single point of progression which, by design philosophy, was intended to form a step between Exotic and Legendary, keeping in mind that Legendary gear is intended to take a substantial time to earn.

I may be proven incorrect in my concept of how the game will be maturing over time, but so might you. And in this manner, both of us are equally open to critical views on our opinions, based as they are on incomplete evidence. And I’ve yet to see a rebuff on these grounds that do not make as many assumptions as I do in denying it.

Raine.1394:

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

Could you link me to where the Devs explicitly stated that vertical progression would be implemented into GW2? I understand that there was mention of the addition of Ascended gear, but I’m more curious to see an actual statement pledging to vertical progression by a Dev member, or the addition of further tiers of gear potency/efficiency over time.

You are correct that just because we have ascended with higher stats doesn’t mean that we have vertical progression and a gear treadmill. I mean, they could have had it slated for the game, as they said, pre-release. If so, and Ascended gear was simply the max gear level, there would be no gear grind treadmill post max level gear.

The introduction of Ascended gear basically just confused me and I waited for a statement as to what was intended with it’s introduction. The AMA was where they confirmed that vertical progression would be in the game moving forward. Here’s the link:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

It’s a massive wall of text. Perhaps the clearest statement on the subject was from Chris:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve”

It is, of course, an oxymoronic sentence. Vertical progression is how you instantiate a gear grind. You can’t have vertical progression with zero grind. Maybe he’s talking about a treadmill that turns so slowly you hardly notice it. If FotM is any indication of the nature of the grind, it will be anything but ‘zero’. But at least it’s a clear statement that we will have vertical progression.

Raine.1394:

It is, of course, an oxymoronic sentence. Vertical progression is how you instantiate a gear grind. You can’t have vertical progression with zero grind. Maybe he’s talking about a treadmill that turns so slowly you hardly notice it. If FotM is any indication of the nature of the grind, it will be anything but ‘zero’. But at least it’s a clear statement that we will have vertical progression.

Clearly the designers and you have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes zero grind.

Playing the game shouldn’t be simplified to “grinding,” but you refer to leveling as a “forced grind” in other threads. This makes me think that any game play that has stat-increasing rewards at the end is a “grind.”

Care to elaborate on your definition of grind so that we understand where you’re coming from?

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

The difference that you’re ignoring is that WoW’s is an exponential increase in power. This is how WoW gates content.

The low power curve, in conjunction with the combat mechanics, is not something you can dismiss. It’s the primary reason why the vertical progression in this game isn’t a treadmill in the same vein as WoW. These things aren’t as black and white as you’d have us believe.

You can say that a treadmill that turns slowly is preferable to a treadmill that turns rapidly. And, I’ll agree with you. What you can’t disagree with is what I said in the post you have replied to. (I’m not going to repeat it.) It’s not about being black and white, it’s a matter of logical coherence.

OK, first off, if done right, if you don’t want vertical progression, then the existence of it should have literally zero impact on your game. I think that’s what ANet was going for, but failed terribly.

Whether you’re getting better stats or a more appealing skin, you have the same goal at the end. Where both could be balanced would be to design dungeon gear to use a stat balance that’s appealing for dungeons, while a more standardized set of gear for the people who want skins has a stat balance that’s better for soloing out in the world.

Where this turns into a mess is that it’s sticking to the idea of one type of content being the only content. If you only want horizontal progression, it should be an option, but not the whole game, though. It’s not good for the life of an MMORPG. The more people who “finish” their character, the less people there are for everyone else to group with. It takes a ton of finesse to build a game around just upgrading skins and stuff like that.

Vertical progression is a part of these games, and it’s here to stay. It’s what drives people to log on, and share a common goal so that grouping is possible. Your entire leveling experience was vertical progression. The idea now is offer options alongside that style of progress.

Also, GW1 DID have a decent amount of vertical progression in it. Remember, gear doesn’t have to have better stats, just releasing stuff with more elaborate artwork to drive the people to want to “upgrade” to it fills that definition. To date, no MMORPG has successfully used horizontal progression as the main focal point of the game

Raine.1394:

You can say that a treadmill that turns slowly is preferable to a treadmill that turns rapidly. And, I’ll agree with you. What you can’t disagree with is what I said in the post you have replied to. (I’m not going to repeat it.) It’s not about being black and white, it’s a matter of logical coherence.

Here’s what I’m trying to say:

We’ve defined vertical progression’s problems. Now it’s up to the designers to mitigate or eliminate them while still giving the VP players the option of VP without diminishing or alienating the HP players.

You say this cannot be done due to the nature of VP. Why?

I think Anet has done a bang-up job for a first pass.

We need a slight vertical progression!

Tiger.7506:

We need a slight vertical progression!

You’ve got one. Enjoy your fractals.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

It is, of course, an oxymoronic sentence. Vertical progression is how you instantiate a gear grind. You can’t have vertical progression with zero grind. Maybe he’s talking about a treadmill that turns so slowly you hardly notice it. If FotM is any indication of the nature of the grind, it will be anything but ‘zero’. But at least it’s a clear statement that we will have vertical progression.

Clearly the designers and you have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes zero grind.

Playing the game shouldn’t be simplified to “grinding,” but you refer to leveling as a “forced grind” in other threads. This makes me think that any game play that has stat-increasing rewards at the end is a “grind.”

Care to elaborate on your definition of grind so that we understand where you’re coming from?

Sure, I’d love to share my definition of grind. It comes from ‘work’ broadly and generally. Many consider it to have a negative connotation, i.e., a grind is doing something you don’t want to do to get what you want.

I noticed early in my gaming that that purely negative use of the term didn’t work well broadly. Let me give you an example. Many people hate farming and it’s a ‘grind’ for them. But, others love farming. I’ve done gathering/crafting for years and I love it. There is no negative grind when I’m farming. But, if you ask me what I’m doing I’ll tell you I’m grinding out leather to make something. Or, consider the Legendary ‘grind’. You may love parts of it and hate others—but, they’re all part of legendary ‘grind’.

So, I’ve come to define a grind broadly and generally as “performing actions in pursuit of a goal”. It has no inherent positive or negative connotations for me and is free to take on either. Though people would probably be surprised in the context of our discussions, I love grinding in a game.

Let me give you the second distinction about grinds and grinding that I have come to understand from years of gaming. There are optional grinds and there are non-optional grinds. In horizontal progression all ‘grinds’ are optional. Because vertical progression describes a process that periodically increase the power level of the game it is not optional. You can postpone the grind if the power curve is low, but there will come a point where you will be a level 60 character trying to run around in Orr. That’s not my assumption by the way, that’s simply what vertical progression is and does. All you need to do to understand that is understand what vertical refers to (power level) and means and what the word progression means.

There you have it. That’s how I define and apply the word grind.

GW2 has a slight vertical progression!
WoW has a hard vertical progression!
The difference between medicine and poison is the dose!

sPvp = no vertical progression.
Pve and WvW = slight vertical progression!

I love Gw2… i hate WoW !!

I’m not sure I comprehend here.

Vertical Progression is playing the game to make your character increasingly more powerful/have more things.

Horizontal Progression is simply Moar Content that the majority of people can do.

It fells to me like a lot of folks are saying that any ‘vertical progression’ is bad. But.. that’s what games are. From D&D to Frigging Mario (Yo Bro, getting that Fire Flower is Lame, I should be able to shoot fireballs from the beginning, I hate having to grind my way to hit that box. Why Cant the Princess be in the First Castle? Having to look for her in another castle is a frigging bullpuppy treadmill!.)

It sounds like some people just want a MMO version of Minecraft or some other game where everyone is homogenized to be exactly the same.

Also these catchphrases and buzzwords are really getting out of hand and abused terribly.

Leveling a Character is Not a ‘grind’, it’s called playing the frigging game. This remains true even if they add more levels later on. If they add more dungeons later on that are Harder, but still doable with current gear, and as a reward add some gear that makes the content a little easier, that’s incentive, not a treadmill.

And Yes, GW1 definitely has Vertical Progression and Content Gating.

Raine.1394:

You can postpone the grind if the power curve is low, but there will come a point where you will be a level 60 character trying to run around in Orr. That’s not my assumption by the way, that’s simply what vertical progression is and does. All you need to do to understand that is understand what vertical refers to (power level) and means and what the word progression means.

Judging by the power curve we have now, we’re not seeing the point to where current exotics are going to be the equivalent to the level 60 in Orr for several years.

This is an example of mitigating the negatives to VP. I’m not saying VP doesn’t have flaws, I don’t play WoW anymore because I don’t have the time to keep up with the gear curve. GW2 fits my playing style much better and I’m relieved that I could likely walk away from GW2 for 6 months, come back and still be relevant to the content.

Will I have to play content to gear up to the top gear slots? Yes. If I want to.

Do I find that bothersome? No. YMMV.

This is why I’m not up in arms about the addition (extension, counting leveling) of VP. I like having long term goals, I enjoy playing content at my own pace, and I like the fact that there’s a carrot to chase for a noticeable but not mandatory stat gain.

As long as I am not gated from content by rule of not having full ascended, I’m okay with the VP. The moment that changes by virtue of game mechanics as opposed to raised level cap, I’ll be chewing on Anet with the rest of the anti-VP crowd.

I hope you understand my stance a bit better.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

You can say that a treadmill that turns slowly is preferable to a treadmill that turns rapidly. And, I’ll agree with you. What you can’t disagree with is what I said in the post you have replied to. (I’m not going to repeat it.) It’s not about being black and white, it’s a matter of logical coherence.

Here’s what I’m trying to say:

We’ve defined vertical progression’s problems. Now it’s up to the designers to mitigate or eliminate them while still giving the VP players the option of VP without diminishing or alienating the HP players.

You say this cannot be done due to the nature of VP. Why?

I think Anet has done a bang-up job for a first pass.

I believe I have answered your question on why vertical progression will always be vertical progression even if mixed with horizontal in all my previous posts on the subject so I’ll direct you there for the answer. You can certainly have vertical progression and aspects of horizontal. But, you will still have all the negatives of vertical progression. .

And,. if you are referring to the first pass in terms of the introduction of vertical progression through Ascended gear in FotM they have admitted that it was a huge blunder. I know bang-up and blunder are both ‘B’ words but they can’t be used interchangeably. FotM probably does give us a good idea of the scale of the grind, i.e., the amount of effort required to chase the stat inflation. They felt that the locus of the grind was a mistake and they now intend to locate the grind closer to where players want to play.

Raine.1394:

And,. if you are referring to the first pass in terms of the introduction of vertical progression through Ascended gear in FotM they have admitted that it was a huge blunder. I know bang-up and blunder are both ‘B’ words but they can’t be used interchangeably. FotM probably does give us a good idea of the scale of the grind, i.e., the amount of effort required to chase the stat inflation. They felt that the locus of the grind was a mistake and they now intend to locate the grind closer to where players want to play.

I’m not referring to the FoTM specifically, no. I’m speaking about the game as a whole. The bang-up job I’m referring to is the undeniable fact that all content is open to me without getting anywhere near the gear ceiling.

First passes usually contain mistakes, like the implementation of Ascended items in FoTM only.

Please knock off the condescension, it makes you look like a skritthead.

Tiger.7506:

GW2 has a slight vertical progression!
WoW has a hard vertical progression!
The difference between medicine and poison is the dose!

sPvp = no vertical progression.
Pve and WvW = slight vertical progression!

I love Gw2… i hate WoW !!

That’s probably a useful adage in traditional Chinese medicine where foods and herbs are used as medicines. Generally, in the west, we understand that poisons are poisons. There intent is to poison and they will, to some extent, poison regardless of dose. Medicines are medicines, always, but must be given at the proper dose. The two concepts can be considered to be not similar, but rather at antipodes.

I love GW2 too, and would prefer that it not be poisoned, even “slightly”.

Astralporing.1957:

Quotelinks Snip

Raine.1394:

Quotelinks Snip

Thanks for the links. It’s clearer for me where people are getting the conclusions that they seem to have now. I do think it’s worth pointing out that the development of the rarity tiers does not necessarily mean that new tiers will be added – development could occur within the existing tiers, much in the same way as the Agony concept was implemented (ie; Adding novel concepts to existing loot). I wouldn’t consider this VP, however, unless these changes were restricted to Ascended gear and limited your access to new content in the game, because increasing the variety within a tier does not necessarily result in a situation where you have to take advantage.

I won’t comment on the issue regarding Tier 6 materials and crafting, however, besides that I feel that these items were intended to be long-term goals for players that were implemented to a fairly controversial degree of success.

However, I will comment on the idea that you cannot have vertical progression without a gear grind. If you consider that certain areas of the game are particularly difficult to navigate without a certain quality of gear and character level before the introduction of Ascended (ie; Orr), and if you associate this mandatory gathering of loot in order to fully enjoy PvE available on release, I’ve reached that point without any grind at all. None of my actions constitute what I’d consider to be grind (and it seems that everyone has their own subtleties as to what this phrase means), as I’ve picked up the gear I need through my efforts to complete my major goal, which is World Completion. I’d be the first to admit that this is inherently subjective conclusion to make (‘I didn’t think I was grinding, so I wasn’t grinding, so there is no grind’), but the opposite is also true (‘I had to grind, so I was grinding, so there is a grind’). It seems that we have a significantly smaller issue with VP as long as there isn’t a grind, or when it’s so subtle as to be unnoticeable.

Considering that, I’d agree that FotM and Ascended gear were both added in a fairly slapdash sort of way, despite enjoying the dungeon the few times I’ve tried it. They’ve been fairly unsubtly shoehorned in as an alternative to the majority of the game instead of complimenting it. However, Devs have also stated that Ascended gear is planned to be obtained via other methods and, presumably, ones with greater variety (as what is the point in repeating a self-confessed mistake?). If these methods were reasonable and feasible, would people have an issue with the concept of this form of VP?

I found gaining my set of Exotic Karma armour a decent example of this. I gained my karma through playing the game, without focusing on gaining karma at all. It was an organic process, supported by various aspects of playing the game, and by the time I had personally reached Orr, I had enough to buy a set. It just happened, without me really thinking about it. To me, that’s ideal – I’d put in plenty of time and effort into the game and been rewarded in a manner that was worthwhile but not my major goal. If people could earn Ascended gear in a similar manner – through regular play that could be constituted a grind, but that probably would not be because it was based around other enjoyable activities – would there be as much concern? Is it the philosophy that’s the issue here, or the implementation?

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

And,. if you are referring to the first pass in terms of the introduction of vertical progression through Ascended gear in FotM they have admitted that it was a huge blunder. I know bang-up and blunder are both ‘B’ words but they can’t be used interchangeably. FotM probably does give us a good idea of the scale of the grind, i.e., the amount of effort required to chase the stat inflation. They felt that the locus of the grind was a mistake and they now intend to locate the grind closer to where players want to play.

I’m not referring to the FoTM specifically, no. I’m speaking about the game as a whole. The bang-up job I’m referring to is the undeniable fact that all content is open to me without getting anywhere near the gear ceiling.

First passes usually contain mistakes, like the implementation of Ascended items in FoTM only.

Please knock off the condescension, it makes you look like a skritthead.

Yeah, the ‘B’ word sentence should have been left out—sorry about that. Rereading it, I can see that it sounds condescending and I’m sorry.

And, yes, if by first pass you are talking about the game I agree wholeheartedly. There are rough edges that I would expect in any new game, but on the whole they have done an outstanding job with GW2. They have realized many of their stated design goals and I’m having a lot of fun with the game.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

You can say that a treadmill that turns slowly is preferable to a treadmill that turns rapidly. And, I’ll agree with you. What you can’t disagree with is what I said in the post you have replied to. (I’m not going to repeat it.) It’s not about being black and white, it’s a matter of logical coherence.

Here’s what I’m trying to say:

We’ve defined vertical progression’s problems. Now it’s up to the designers to mitigate or eliminate them while still giving the VP players the option of VP without diminishing or alienating the HP players.

You say this cannot be done due to the nature of VP. Why?

I think Anet has done a bang-up job for a first pass.

Virtual progression aims at the people that want to be better than others. They want that progression to give them advantage over the average player. Horizontal progression players on the other hand want a level field, where none of the available options are clearly advantageous over the others – and they want that field to be easily accessible. Those two goals lie in direct opposition – you cannot have a playing field when at the same time a minority of players have an equipment-based advantage.

Now, it is possible, usually, to satisfy the VP group by offering them a surrogate – something that would give them bragging rights without offering advantage (legendary weapons atm fill that niche). It is NOT possible to pacify the those that want horizontal progression, because once the level field gets broken in any way, it IS broken and no amount of sugarcoating can change that.