Guild Wars 2

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but the way it’s designed in GW2 creates a problem where defensive stats actually undermine your defense in most situations, which largely makes them a pointless trap option, and that’s just silly. This is not just a product of dodge existing, it’s a product of how dodging is designed – specifically that it is both limited and unaffected by any defensive attribute.

It’s my opinion that this is fundamentally broken, but, as I see it, it’s also something that has a simple and common-sense solution, and that is to have Vitality influence your endurance regeneration, and remove or reduce its impact on Health.

Toughness could stand a redesign as well. First, I think it should impact condition damage by a %, even if it’s by a smaller amount. Second, I think Anet should seriously consider making the effect on physical damage subtractive – that is, reducing damage by a fixed amount instead of by a %, so that it has a proportionately greater impact on weaker hits and a lesser impact on large hits that need to be dodged.

With Vitality adding to endurance regeneration, I’d reduce the effectiveness of Vigor. A 50% increase really is too high anyway.

So, in a nutshell, Vitality specializes in mitigation of burst damage and Toughness specializes in mitigating sustained damage from both physical and condition sources. Additionally, reducing the impact of Vitality on Health would be an indirect buff for Healing Power, which doesn’t scale as well as Health does with Vitality. I think these changes would bolster the effect of defensive attributes and making the process of gearing/building more interesting.

Your ideas sound really though to implement, Einlanzer, as it usually happen with these “make it right from the base” approachs.
I like them a lot.

I actually think this could be part of an attribute rework designed to make the system more symmetrical and polished, which I posted about the other day. I do, however, think that Vitality needs to add endurance regen regardless of any other changes that may or may not occur.

Not to sound rude, but I think Anet probably has already thought of this when they were designing the game. and settled on this current system.

Dodging was not designed to be spammed for most classes. Thief obviously being the exception here but this is how they make up for a strong lack of sustain and defensive options. They were designed to 1v1 and most likely win.

Dodging, by the limited uptime of it is designed to avoid blows you know you can not afford to take. Dodging wisely will actually keep you alive longer than dodging constantly. This is because most classes suffer some form of cool down or set up.

Toughness ‘reduces’ physical damage. But mathematically speaking it raises your effective HP pool by a certain percentage per point. When you’re dealing with nothing but power builds toughness tends to go a long ways when you compare it to vitality.

Because Condition IGNORES toughness, vitality is your primary defensive attribute to this.

If a target has a low pool of health, Condi would typically be the best way to kill them if they happened to stack toughness.
If a target has a large pool of health, condi will help, but it’s best to use raw power instead as you can deal the damage real fast.
If the target has them mixed, you mix them both.

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497:

Not to sound rude, but I think Anet probably has already thought of this when they were designing the game. and settled on this current system.

Dodging was not designed to be spammed for most classes. Thief obviously being the exception here but this is how they make up for a strong lack of sustain and defensive options. They were designed to 1v1 and most likely win.

Dodging, by the limited uptime of it is designed to avoid blows you know you can not afford to take. Dodging wisely will actually keep you alive longer than dodging constantly. This is because most classes suffer some form of cool down or set up.

Toughness ‘reduces’ physical damage. But mathematically speaking it raises your effective HP pool by a certain percentage per point. When you’re dealing with nothing but power builds toughness tends to go a long ways when you compare it to vitality.

Because Condition IGNORES toughness, vitality is your primary defensive attribute to this.

If a target has a low pool of health, Condi would typically be the best way to kill them if they happened to stack toughness.
If a target has a large pool of health, condi will help, but it’s best to use raw power instead as you can deal the damage real fast.
If the target has them mixed, you mix them both.

If they did, then they clearly settled incorrectly and it should be reevaluated. Defensive attributes will never carry the weight of offensive ones as long as ability to dodge is not impacted and we will forever have a berserker meta dominating the game.

I don’t agree that Vitality should be vs. conditions (and physical) and toughness should be only vs. physical. I prefer what I proposed – Vitality should be vs. burst and toughness should be vs sustained, with some overlap. This would be a (badly needed) mechanical improvement to both attributes, and it makes more conceptual sense.

Einlanzer.1627:

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497:

Not to sound rude, but I think Anet probably has already thought of this when they were designing the game. and settled on this current system.

If they did, then they clearly settled incorrectly and it should be reevaluated.

Ouch.

I don’t understand everything you’re suggesting, but it’s clear that anet should fire everybody and bring you on to overhaul the whole game. ;D

i like the idea. it have to be something super low like 150 – 200 vit = 1% endurance regen.

I’m not against the idea that dodging could be intertwined with stats or that passive defense could be buffed up. I’m just against doing more than tweaking unless there’s a really, really powerful reason… and the OP hasn’t provided that — they have just asserted that it’s better.

Based on other statements, I doubt I’d agree with the OP’s idea of what would be more fun. Notably:

• “There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, …is that…the best defense is a strong offense.” — this is, in my opinion, an amazing feature of GW2 combat.
• “This is not just a product of dodge existing, it’s a product of how dodging is designed – specifically that it is both limited and unaffected by any defensive attribute.” — which is the bad part? that it’s limited? (in which case, why is it such a problem?) or that it can’t be increased by stats? (which is just a different sort of limit)
• Further, there’s also an implicit assumption that dodging is the only form of active defense — it’s not.

Basically, the OP seems to disagree with ANet’s design of the combat system. While I agree that it’s got a lot of room for improvement, I do think it’s an amazingly enjoyable and durable and adaptable system. I disagree that it’s fundamentally flawed as suggested by the OP.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’m not against the idea that dodging could be intertwined with stats or that passive defense could be buffed up. I’m just against doing more than tweaking unless there’s a really, really powerful reason… and the OP hasn’t provided that — they have just asserted that it’s better.

Based on other statements, I doubt I’d agree with the OP’s idea of what would be more fun. Notably:

• “There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, …is that…the best defense is a strong offense.” — this is, in my opinion, an amazing feature of GW2 combat.
• “This is not just a product of dodge existing, it’s a product of how dodging is designed – specifically that it is both limited and unaffected by any defensive attribute.” — which is the bad part? that it’s limited? (in which case, why is it such a problem?) or that it can’t be increased by stats? (which is just a different sort of limit)
• Further, there’s also an implicit assumption that dodging is the only form of active defense — it’s not.

Basically, the OP seems to disagree with ANet’s design of the combat system. While I agree that it’s got a lot of room for improvement, I do think it’s an amazingly enjoyable and durable and adaptable system. I disagree that it’s fundamentally flawed as suggested by the OP.

No I don’t, and I’m not sure why that’s how you’d interpret my post. Suggesting adding a dodge bonus to Vitality is not a suggestion of an overhaul to the system. I’m not sure why anyone think it’s a good status quo for defensive stats to actually undermine your defense.

Or you know easier just to make some more skills add vigor boon

Linken.6345:

Or you know easier just to make some more skills add vigor boon

Except that doesn’t address the problem I’m actually talking about.

I disagree with the basic premise. Players don’t use full glass builds in organized PvE because it’s safer. They do it because PvE doesn’t force them to do otherwise the way PvP/WvW scenarios typically do. If you can have a healer cover your group in full glass and not wipe, it’s a no-brainer to do so. To do otherwise simply makes the fight take longer for no benefit.

If you’re talking solo open world, I still disagree. You’re telling me that having a bunch of extra armor, healing, and/or health actually makes it harder for you to survive? I can think of very few scenarios where this is true.

It’s one thing to say that full glass is adequate for survival and preferred for skilled players, and even that defensive stats are “useless” in that sense. I mean if you’re comfortable in full glass, then why wouldn’t you use it? It’s faster! But that is not the same thing as claiming that you are literally less likely to die in full glass than defensive gear.

It sounds to me like you have too little experience with defensive stats. Not that I blame you. It also sounds like you have little reason to waste your time with them. But as the basis for this argument, I don’t think your claims hold water at all.

Meanwhile healing condicleanse etc have become staples of the game since hot. Sure u dont really run full vit toughtness but in 1v1 it would be just boring to and in 50vs50 healing power and utility from the groups makes up for that. In pve id like some encounters to require actual tanking tho.

Also this change would kinda make ppl that run tanky build mini dd’s. I can already see full tank warriors with the endurance on might trait and dmg on dodge trait and i dont like the idea of playing against that.

AliamRationem.5172:

I disagree with the basic premise. Players don’t use full glass builds in organized PvE because it’s safer. They do it because PvE doesn’t force them to do otherwise the way PvP/WvW scenarios typically do. If you can have a healer cover your group in full glass and not wipe, it’s a no-brainer to do so. To do otherwise simply makes the fight take longer for no benefit.

If you’re talking solo open world, I still disagree. You’re telling me that having a bunch of extra armor, healing, and/or health actually makes it harder for you to survive? I can think of very few scenarios where this is true.

It’s one thing to say that full glass is adequate for survival and preferred for skilled players, and even that defensive stats are “useless” in that sense. I mean if you’re comfortable in full glass, then why wouldn’t you use it? It’s faster! But that is not the same thing as claiming that you are literally less likely to die in full glass than defensive gear.

It sounds to me like you have too little experience with defensive stats. Not that I blame you. It also sounds like you have little reason to waste your time with them. But as the basis for this argument, I don’t think your claims hold water at all.

In no mmo will you see ppl that are supposed to be dmg dealers run semi tanky stuff since theres a healer and someone to tank/ control the mobs.

Einlanzer.1627:

That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but the way it’s designed in GW2 creates a problem where defensive stats actually undermine your defense in most situations, which largely makes them a pointless trap option, and that’s just silly.

Flawed assumptions lead to flawed conclusions. True in every case, true in this case.

Player 1 in Soldiers gear fighting Player 2 in Zerker gear.

Player 1 only does a few % less damage to the Zerker than the Zerker does to the Soldier. So, you then get the additional benefit of the vitality(10k health) on top of that.

Here’s the math, I used Ele staff Fire #1 AA as the example.

The best defense is definitely defense, because against someone built for damage, it does almost the same damage and has far more health.

Toughness rework would break abilities that rely on small hits (flame jet, poison dart volley, rapid fire, unload, volley, etcetcetc) as well as Conditions which already have forms of mitigation (-duration, cond. removal, resistance) besides Toughness.

Unpopular opinion,

Toughness needs to be reworked completely into a semi offensive stat.

The amount of damage reduction given from toughness is too much.

1. Many bosses can be face tanked completely with no real need to dodge. This is suppose to be an action game, not classic pen and paper.
2. The WvW toughness blob is a problem, you can steamroll a lot of people while seige does very little.
3. Reducing its effectiveness will help with the sustain meta in spvp.

Proposal.

Vitality and Toughness should scale with abilities in exchange for a hit in their stat contribution.

Toughness should take a hit in the amount of armor it provides the player in exchange for allowing it to scale with various stuns making a toughness build like a stun warrior or scrapper more offensively menacing, giving them better quality breakbar, while making sustain for a lot of builds less excessive (ventari revenant can be pretty excessive in both WvW and sPvP, its amazing, I love it but I’m sure its not fun being on the opposite end of the stick).

Vitality should take a hit in its health contribution in exchange for scaling with various abilities as well. The necromancers life force scales with vitality, perhaps other professions could receive the same treatment like revenant getting a larger energy pool, warriors generating adrenaline faster, or thief getting faster initiative regeneration.

In this way, stacking these stats is rewarded through active play. Gone are the days where toughness is seen as some type of training wheel in PvE, now it’s valued for breakbar potential and good stuns, vitality allows for better generation of skill resources and who doesn’t love pressing skills more often?

Open to criticism.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

…Open to criticism.

I don’t think anything like that is ever going to happen, people got confused by Boon Duration and Concentration so I can’t see ANet ever making toughness/vitality scale with other abilities or changing their scaling. It would create immense amounts of code work.

I think you are creating issues where there are none.

AliamRationem.5172:

I disagree with the basic premise. Players don’t use full glass builds in organized PvE because it’s safer. They do it because PvE doesn’t force them to do otherwise the way PvP/WvW scenarios typically do. If you can have a healer cover your group in full glass and not wipe, it’s a no-brainer to do so. To do otherwise simply makes the fight take longer for no benefit.

If you’re talking solo open world, I still disagree. You’re telling me that having a bunch of extra armor, healing, and/or health actually makes it harder for you to survive? I can think of very few scenarios where this is true.

It’s one thing to say that full glass is adequate for survival and preferred for skilled players, and even that defensive stats are “useless” in that sense. I mean if you’re comfortable in full glass, then why wouldn’t you use it? It’s faster! But that is not the same thing as claiming that you are literally less likely to die in full glass than defensive gear.

It sounds to me like you have too little experience with defensive stats. Not that I blame you. It also sounds like you have little reason to waste your time with them. But as the basis for this argument, I don’t think your claims hold water at all.

No. They do full glass builds because it’s the most efficient. And it’s the most efficient because not only do you kill faster, but killing faster also provides you with the best form of defense because of the way that dodging works – it’s highly limited and not impacted by any defensive attribute, and it’s the main way you avoid damage.

I love how people are arguing with me about this when the game has been dominated by a berserker meta since launch, demonstrating that there’s a problem very clearly. Now, of course, it’s more of a problem in PvE than it is for PvP, but that doesn’t make it less of a problem in my eyes.

The solution to fixing defensive attributes is to expand the scope of both – Vitality to dodging, and Toughness to conditions (even if it’s just a small %)

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

I completely agree with this. I am looking to make a tanky character by using defensive stats and it just fails flat in any moderately difficult content like running around HOT maps. This is exacerbated by a lot of CC and conditions flying around from the mobs in there so your defense will mean jack kitten to them. It will be just worse as in berserker gear you would have killed them already, if your reflexes are good enough.

If I’m sacrificing a lot of damage to be more resilient it should really have a bigger effect than increasing my time-to-die from 2.5 sec to 3.5. It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

As a thief, the main role is to decap or +1 during a fight ( and we can’t manage to go inside the fight nor too close ).

With those attribute modifies i barely see any improvement in the quality of life.
Nor Vitality ( instead, enemies could have even more dodges, which will require even more time to get em down ) nor toughness ( which we don’t have, cause is meaningless with a 11k hp pool, no damage mitigation and, essentially, cause a phisical build need a marauder neck ).

Ps: ofc with a marauder neck there will be more dodges for us, but for enemies too. And the trade, to me, is not fair for a glass cannon. Though defensive stats ( or character base health ) could be modified somehow.

I am way more skeptic.

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Shirlias.8104:

As a thief, the main role is to decap or +1 during a fight ( and we can’t manage to go inside the fight nor too close ).

With those attribute modifies i barely see any improvement in the quality of life.
Nor Vitality ( instead, enemies could have even more dodges, which will require even more time to get em down ) nor toughness ( which we don’t have, cause is meaningless with a 11k hp pool, no damage mitigation and, essentially, cause a phisical build need a marauder neck ).

Ps: ofc with a marauder neck there will be more dodges for us, but for enemies too. And the trade, to me, is not fair for a glass cannon. Though defensive stats ( or character base health ) could be modified somehow.

I am way more skeptic.

Actually the impact to thieves would be slightly greater than for other classes, because the increased endurance regen would synergize with other dodge boons thieves get and basically give you unlimited dodging, which other classes wouldn’t have.

In fact, I would argue this would go a long way toward fixing the spike vs survivability issue that Thieves have always struggled with and substantially add to their ability to survive with poor defense in PvE.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Unfortunately it seems this is the case and not sure if they can or feel like improving the PvE part.

I played GW1 mostly for PvP, always going in those 4vs4 scenarios with my annoying necro/mesmer, but for GW2 I wanted a more meaningful PvE experience with slower game speed… I guess I got older

Einlanzer.1627:

Shirlias.8104:

As a thief, the main role is to decap or +1 during a fight ( and we can’t manage to go inside the fight nor too close ).

With those attribute modifies i barely see any improvement in the quality of life.
Nor Vitality ( instead, enemies could have even more dodges, which will require even more time to get em down ) nor toughness ( which we don’t have, cause is meaningless with a 11k hp pool, no damage mitigation and, essentially, cause a phisical build need a marauder neck ).

Ps: ofc with a marauder neck there will be more dodges for us, but for enemies too. And the trade, to me, is not fair for a glass cannon. Though defensive stats ( or character base health ) could be modified somehow.

I am way more skeptic.

Actually the impact to thieves would be slightly greater than for other classes, because the increased endurance regen would synergize with other dodge boons thieves get and basically give you unlimited dodging, which other classes wouldn’t have.

In fact, I would argue this would go a long way toward fixing the spike vs survivability issue that Thieves have always struggled with and substantially add to their ability to survive with poor defense in PvE.

But in pve they go zerk, both raid and fractals, so no bonus health but base vitality.
Also they must dodge on boss to deal dmg and use one dodge every 4 sec to have improved damage. I see no benefits in pve.

And i am worried about pvp ( cause the more the enemy, which is mostly a "way more tanky class than thief ) can use the extra dodge to manage to recover their cd, which they couldn’t previously recover due the missing seconds provided by the new extra dodge.

Shirlias.8104:

Einlanzer.1627:

Shirlias.8104:

As a thief, the main role is to decap or +1 during a fight ( and we can’t manage to go inside the fight nor too close ).

With those attribute modifies i barely see any improvement in the quality of life.
Nor Vitality ( instead, enemies could have even more dodges, which will require even more time to get em down ) nor toughness ( which we don’t have, cause is meaningless with a 11k hp pool, no damage mitigation and, essentially, cause a phisical build need a marauder neck ).

Ps: ofc with a marauder neck there will be more dodges for us, but for enemies too. And the trade, to me, is not fair for a glass cannon. Though defensive stats ( or character base health ) could be modified somehow.

I am way more skeptic.

Actually the impact to thieves would be slightly greater than for other classes, because the increased endurance regen would synergize with other dodge boons thieves get and basically give you unlimited dodging, which other classes wouldn’t have.

In fact, I would argue this would go a long way toward fixing the spike vs survivability issue that Thieves have always struggled with and substantially add to their ability to survive with poor defense in PvE.

But in pve they go zerk, both raid and fractals, so no bonus health but base vitality.
Also they must dodge on boss to deal dmg and use one dodge every 4 sec to have improved damage. I see no benefits in pve.

And i am worried about pvp ( cause the more the enemy, which is mostly a "way more tanky class than thief ) can use the extra dodge to manage to recover their cd, which they couldn’t previously recover due the missing seconds provided by the new extra dodge.

You’re not thinking in the right way.

Players in PvP would hypothetically have less health and better dodging, but as a thief player, this actually would advantage you in more situations than not. It exchanges passive defense for more active defense, and therefore forces players of all classes to be skillful in their defense as they are in their offense.

In PvE, the benefit would be that defensive stats actually make a significant contribution to your attrition for the trade-off of less damage, when the defensive attributes under the current system do not – they mostly lower your damage AND your defense since high damage is the most important part of your defense with severely restricted dodging. It may be that defensive stats are still not meta for Thieves in raids – I mean why would they be? But that doesn’t matter- they’d be more useful for more players in general.

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Unfortunately it seems this is the case and not sure if they can or feel like improving the PvE part.

I played GW1 mostly for PvP, always going in those 4vs4 scenarios with my annoying necro/mesmer, but for GW2 I wanted a more meaningful PvE experience with slower game speed… I guess I got older

What’s funny is that I think this is what most MMO players want, and that’s probably why GW2 had a huge player falloff after it launched. I still love it, but I do often get annoyed at how chaotic fights get.

I’m going to be rude and say I’m glad you are not in charge of balance in this game. Have you ever fought against a Daredevil or two? It can be absolutely infuriating to watch a single Daredevil dodge around 4-5 players without anyone being able to do anything about the nuisance they can bring. Are you basically proposing that every class should be able to become equally frustrating? It’d become Dodge Wars 2. PvP would be infuriatingly annoying. It would also undermine smart use of block, shadowstep/blink, evade and crowd control skills to supplement dodging.

Vitality is your defense against condition damage (with a bonus being it also helps against physical damage). Toughness/Armor against physical damage. The system works as intended that way. I see absolutely no reason to change it. If any such change were to be implemented, it would have to be ridiculously low gains of endurance regeneration, which would render the stat pointless. At least now it serves a purpose.

Absconditus.6804:

I’m going to be rude and say I’m glad you are not in charge of balance in this game. Have you ever fought against a Daredevil or two? It can be absolutely infuriating to watch a single Daredevil dodge around 4-5 players without anyone being able to do anything about the nuisance. You’re basically proposing that every class should be able to become equally frustrating. It’d become Dodge Wars 2. PvP would be infuriatingly annoying.

Vitality is your defense against condition damage (with a bonus being it also helps against physical damage). Toughness/Armor against physical damage. The system works as intended that way. I see absolutely no reason to change it.

Except dodging should be the source of Thief attrition – they’re a melee class with terrible health and armor. It may be annoying, but that’s what thieves are supposed to be. You seem to forget that you would have to sacrifice being a glass cannon to stack vitality for better dodging (it wouldn’t give other classes as much dodging as Thieves have currently – they have three dodge bars and high vigor uptime, and I’d probably reduce the efficacy of Vigor with this change to 25%). I’d probably start with around a 33% increase at the Vitality cap and iterate on it from there.

Yeah, and Vitality being your “defense” against condition damage when it also benefits your physical damage, and toughness only does the latter, doesn’t make any conceptual sense. How does “vitality” increase your resistance to burning? Toughness should reduce your damage passively from all damage types, and vitality should help you avoid burst damage. Nothing else makes much logical, mechanical, or thematic sense.

I’m pretty confident the game would have a lot fewer balance issues if I was in charge of it.

Not opposed to defensive stats having more value. PvXer but I admit I mostly spec with WvW havoc/solo/zerg specs in mind. That said all game modes should be considered. Other concern here is twitch reaction versus gameplay. Don’t want PvP combat to come down to who has the fastest connection to server so there needs to be some balance there.

For PvE have said so in the past and would love to see a test of it, but if the concern is the zerk meta change the AI. The AI should target the people with the least amount of armor/defense first and then work backwards. No real player tries to go for the tankiest target first, put the squishes down and get the other side in rez mode. AI should do the same. That and remove enrage timers. As long as you have enrage timers the game remains a DPS race. I think if the AI targeted easiest targets first there wouldn’t need to be enrage timers.

TheGrimm.5624:

The AI should target the people with the least amount of armor/defense first and then work backwards. No real player tries to go for the tankiest target first, put the squishes down and get the other side in rez mode. AI should do the same. That and remove enrage timers. As long as you have enrage timers the game remains a DPS race. I think if the AI targeted easiest targets first there wouldn’t need to be enrage timers.

Then there would be zero reason to bring anyone with defensive stats anymore. It’s because the AI focuses on the player with the most toughness that you use such a character in the first place.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ashivan.5216:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s a problem with offensive vs. defensive stats, and the long in short of is that, especially with the way dodging works, the best defense is a strong offense.

That’s the best part about Guild Wars 2

Not when there are defensive attributes in the game that become nigh-useless as a result. That’s just an unpolished system.

….snip
It’s like the entire game is balanced around the PvP encounters with huge dmg/defense spikes on long cooldowns and good reflexes.

That’s pretty much exactly what it is. It really appears that balancing for PvE is never a priority for their team, and so we have exceptionally poor balance since PvE operates way differently than PvP does. See things like base weapon damage (mostly stemming from #1 skills), defensive attributes, and downed states.

Unfortunately it seems this is the case and not sure if they can or feel like improving the PvE part.

I played GW1 mostly for PvP, always going in those 4vs4 scenarios with my annoying necro/mesmer, but for GW2 I wanted a more meaningful PvE experience with slower game speed… I guess I got older

What’s funny is that I think this is what most MMO players want, and that’s probably why GW2 had a huge player falloff after it launched. I still love it, but I do often get annoyed at how chaotic fights get.

This is one of the main reasons I can’t enjoy the combat as much as I would have liked. I have a love-hate relation with this game and I had the impression that nobody else felt something is wrong with the skills and the combat flow in PvE encounters.

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

I disagree with the basic premise. Players don’t use full glass builds in organized PvE because it’s safer. They do it because PvE doesn’t force them to do otherwise the way PvP/WvW scenarios typically do. If you can have a healer cover your group in full glass and not wipe, it’s a no-brainer to do so. To do otherwise simply makes the fight take longer for no benefit.

If you’re talking solo open world, I still disagree. You’re telling me that having a bunch of extra armor, healing, and/or health actually makes it harder for you to survive? I can think of very few scenarios where this is true.

It’s one thing to say that full glass is adequate for survival and preferred for skilled players, and even that defensive stats are “useless” in that sense. I mean if you’re comfortable in full glass, then why wouldn’t you use it? It’s faster! But that is not the same thing as claiming that you are literally less likely to die in full glass than defensive gear.

It sounds to me like you have too little experience with defensive stats. Not that I blame you. It also sounds like you have little reason to waste your time with them. But as the basis for this argument, I don’t think your claims hold water at all.

No. They do full glass builds because it’s the most efficient. And it’s the most efficient because not only do you kill faster, but killing faster also provides you with the best form of defense because of the way that dodging works – it’s highly limited and not impacted by any defensive attribute, and it’s the main way you avoid damage.

I love how people are arguing with me about this when the game has been dominated by a berserker meta since launch, demonstrating that there’s a problem very clearly. Now, of course, it’s more of a problem in PvE than it is for PvP, but that doesn’t make it less of a problem in my eyes.

The solution to fixing defensive attributes is to expand the scope of both – Vitality to dodging, and Toughness to conditions (even if it’s just a small %)

You seem convinced that you have the proper solution to the problem, but it doesn’t add up to me. The fact is that PvE damage is too low and predictable for defensive stats to be attractive in organized PvE. In order for this to change, the frequency and amount of damage would need to exceed what proper use of dodge mechanics plus a group healer can mitigate. Adding extra dodges to vitality and mitigating condition damage via toughness doesn’t accomplish this. Thus I expect the DPS meta would remain due to being more efficient while presenting little additional risk.

It would only become less efficient if it were no longer feasible for players to run full glass in organized PvE and have a reasonable expectation of survival. Even then, it’s possible that groups would simply add another healer rather than expect everyone to nerf their own damage in favor of survival stats. They would do whatever is most efficient in any case.

AliamRationem.5172:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

I disagree with the basic premise. Players don’t use full glass builds in organized PvE because it’s safer. They do it because PvE doesn’t force them to do otherwise the way PvP/WvW scenarios typically do. If you can have a healer cover your group in full glass and not wipe, it’s a no-brainer to do so. To do otherwise simply makes the fight take longer for no benefit.

If you’re talking solo open world, I still disagree. You’re telling me that having a bunch of extra armor, healing, and/or health actually makes it harder for you to survive? I can think of very few scenarios where this is true.

It’s one thing to say that full glass is adequate for survival and preferred for skilled players, and even that defensive stats are “useless” in that sense. I mean if you’re comfortable in full glass, then why wouldn’t you use it? It’s faster! But that is not the same thing as claiming that you are literally less likely to die in full glass than defensive gear.

It sounds to me like you have too little experience with defensive stats. Not that I blame you. It also sounds like you have little reason to waste your time with them. But as the basis for this argument, I don’t think your claims hold water at all.

No. They do full glass builds because it’s the most efficient. And it’s the most efficient because not only do you kill faster, but killing faster also provides you with the best form of defense because of the way that dodging works – it’s highly limited and not impacted by any defensive attribute, and it’s the main way you avoid damage.

I love how people are arguing with me about this when the game has been dominated by a berserker meta since launch, demonstrating that there’s a problem very clearly. Now, of course, it’s more of a problem in PvE than it is for PvP, but that doesn’t make it less of a problem in my eyes.

The solution to fixing defensive attributes is to expand the scope of both – Vitality to dodging, and Toughness to conditions (even if it’s just a small %)

You seem convinced that you have the proper solution to the problem, but it doesn’t add up to me. The fact is that PvE damage is too low and predictable for defensive stats to be attractive in organized PvE. In order for this to change, the frequency and amount of damage would need to exceed what proper use of dodge mechanics plus a group healer can mitigate. Adding extra dodges to vitality and mitigating condition damage via toughness doesn’t accomplish this. Thus I expect the DPS meta would remain due to being more efficient while presenting little additional risk.

It would only become less efficient if it were no longer feasible for players to run full glass in organized PvE and have a reasonable expectation of survival. Even then, it’s possible that groups would simply add another healer rather than expect everyone to nerf their own damage in favor of survival stats. They would do whatever is most efficient in any case.

Well, there’s only ever going to be one meta for damage, and that’s stacking DPS stats. So I expect Berserker will always be meta for damage dealers (most toons) in organized PvE. That won’t really change unless they make defensive stats so disproportionately good that you can thoughtlessly tank all day long, which would obviously be bad for the game.

The point has more to do with increasing the role defensive stats play in attrition in general, i.e. not in highly organized, optimized group play, and also providing ways for certain characters to have more of a “tank” role even in organized play.

maddoctor.2738:

TheGrimm.5624:

The AI should target the people with the least amount of armor/defense first and then work backwards. No real player tries to go for the tankiest target first, put the squishes down and get the other side in rez mode. AI should do the same. That and remove enrage timers. As long as you have enrage timers the game remains a DPS race. I think if the AI targeted easiest targets first there wouldn’t need to be enrage timers.

Then there would be zero reason to bring anyone with defensive stats anymore. It’s because the AI focuses on the player with the most toughness that you use such a character in the first place.

Perhaps, but it also may require people to use more defensive stats if they can’t take the hits. Look at all the PvE threads where people complain that their group failed since they didn’t drop the mobs fast enough and they couldn’t take the pressure. Most of that originates from people playing full glass cannon. People in WvW spec planning on taking hits since its going to happen and they need to gear as needed for that encounter. If the AI did as players do in PvP and WvW it might change the environment in PvE.