Guild Wars 2

Farming isn’t inherently a bad thing. In fact, the daily achievements effectively promote that very behavior. When gameplay largely revolves around collecting stuff for other stuff, farming is going to happen. And it can be fun (though tolerance levels will vary). A lot of players enjoy the activity.

Grinding, on the other hand, isn’t about fun. It’s about continuing to do something even after it stops being fun, strictly for the rewards involved.

Grind, then, is subjective. People have different thresholds for it. But what we can be pretty certain about is that almost everyone does have a threshold that they will hit, eventually.

Many of the requirements in this game for various items (not just the Legendary tier) fairly well scream farming and grind. Or paying real money (but that’s not really a game, is it).

Do these items need to be pursued? No. They are indeed optional. But what if someone wants one of these items? What are the options then?

1. Grind.
2. Buy what’s needed with real money.
3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

If the developers don’t want the first option to be viable, and if we assume that this isn’t one big scam to funnel everyone into option #2… then there needs to be enough content to support #3.

This is where I’m seeing a problem. Right now, there just isn’t enough there. Not for me. And I’m not particularly difficult to please on that front.

Sure, dungeons will keep me occupied for a time. WvW will entertain me for a while. But do I see these activities engaging me long enough for me to reach the required levels of materials and currencies needed to actually obtain any big items? No. No, I don’t. That means, if I want to gain them from gameplay, I’ll need to grind (which I won’t do).

To me, ANet is saying one thing, but their design model is saying another. I’ve been extending the benefit of the doubt, assuming that this isn’t a concerted effort to fleece me, but that’s becoming an increasingly harder position to maintain.

Don’t want the game to be seen as a grindfest? Then, in the coming months, I’ll need to see fundamental gameplay improved and expanded upon, a more varied palette of content introduced (and alternate paths for obtainment of various items integrated into that palette), and support for community building. What I don’t need to see is more types of loot and currencies to choke my storage, more “mystery chest” shenanigans, and an escalation of drop stinginess.

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

Exactly.
But that’s not gonna happen.

They’re just gonna piss off their customers.

And that’s the rub. When you get to level 80 and complete the map there is nothing left to do “to play normal” except grind stuff. At that point grinding becomes normal because there is literally no content left to get the mats.

And you’d better not go out there and find content you’ve already done because it has a slightly better drop rate on the ridiculous numbers of mats needed or ANet will smack it with the nerf bat and the True Believers will lecture you on how you’re “doing it wrong” without providing an alternate way of doing it besides adding more time to the grind equation.

Exactly Nonlinear. I agree with you.

mavet.3047:

SHM.7628:

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

Very transparent, but not very smart. People don’t spend money on a game they don’t enjoy.

I agree with you 120% on this but I’m just saying what their sick mind state is. The “devs” have taken a game with such great potential and turned it into a piece of stinking crap.

That is your oppinion and if you are still playing something that is stinking crap for you its really sad.

I have 1200 hours play in Guild War 2, I crafted my Juggernaut yesterday and I enjoy the game really a lot. Its one of the best mmorpg I have played for last 9 years and I played almost every one released

Dont like it? No one is forcing you to play At least I hope no one does

LOL and now you will tell me you crafted the hammer without ANY grinding?

Nonlinear.9823:

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

That’s Hydro’s point. Broadly speaking, if you aren’t specifically trying to accumulate as much gold as possible (grinding) or paying out of your wallet (gems), then it follows that you ought to be able to make money parellel to routine gameplay. World of Warcraft had Daily Quests, which were essentially chore lists but would give you a decent stipend of gold to cover expenses if you needed it. Other games relied on Dungeon runs to facilitate wealth; you ran a dungeon, got a reward, which was either a pile of gold or a shot at something rare which you could then sell.

Except that Guild Wars 2 does not provide you with any means of earning gold which is either reasonable, reliable or readily apparent. Purchasing gold from gems isn’t reasonable; grinding isn’t reliable owing to DR, and there is no content designed to award you a steady flow of currency.

You’re perpetually broke because, by design, gold is supposed to be very valuable. Dropping 4-5 gold on an item should be seen as a moderately large investment. Unfortunately, this is only true provided everyone else is just as broke as you, but the moment a small enough percentage of the population manages to accumulate a disproportionately large sum of gold…

…well, to use an old cliche: prices rise but wages stay low.

It’s up to ArenaNet to step in, either by adjusting or removing DR so that grinding for gold is something you can do, or implementing some repeatable content that provides you with a steady sum of money, which constitutes a bottom line (i.e, everyone should be able to make at least this much.)

Dailies/Monthlies are a good place to start.

Dogblaster.6713:

mavet.3047:

SHM.7628:

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

Very transparent, but not very smart. People don’t spend money on a game they don’t enjoy.

I agree with you 120% on this but I’m just saying what their sick mind state is. The "devs" have taken a game with such great potential and turned it into a piece of stinking crap.

That is your oppinion and if you are still playing something that is stinking crap for you its really sad.

*I have 1200 hours of play in Guild War 2, I crafted all of my Juggernaut yesterday and I really enjoy the game a lot. It’s one of the best mmorpgs I have played for last 9 years and I played almost every one released*

Dont like it? No one is forcing you to play At least I hope no one does

I would suggest that you spend less time playing games and work more on your language skills. Unless, that is, English is not your mother tongue.

So really all this is, is complaining that you can’t get a different skin (which will by no means put you at a disadvantage) for the highest lvl gear that you already have easily…oookaaaay. I think many of you complaining how the game isn’t what you bought actually didn’t know what you purchased in the first place. The game did as it said and removed the blatant numerical top tier gear advantage…and you guys make up superficial top tier gear advantage then complain the game isn’t doing what you’re trying to make it do. How does that make any form of sense?

Just to demonstrate the uselessness of this argument-let’s say they made legendaries easy to get (that seems to be what’s really bothering you)…then what? You won’t have more hp, your attacks won’t crit more often, you won’t auto dodge, you won’t get new skills, you won’t run faster, you won’t fly-you functionally and fundamentally will be unchanged. In other words, you will literally be no different than you were <insert time frame> ago when you had exotics.

Furthermore you’re attacking the symptom not the cause. ANet doesn’t make TP prices-it is us, the players. Yes that very nasty word that many of you don’t like, it’s our RESPONSIBILITY (seems to me a lot of you who scream I have the ‘right to x’ or the ‘freedom to y’ also conveniently forget that those virtues are tied to responsibility-both on a personal level and community level)to not generate additional gates for content (even aesthetic ones). Let me ask you-if the nerf was still in effect, but the greedy, childish, short-sighted community DIDN’T inflate prices to mimic the recession-would this be an issue?

The last point in the OP is really the only one that has any value. Good game, but lots of bugs and oddities that should be ironed out before (since simultaneous isn’t possible it seems -__-) adding content…which itself may or may not have bugs and oddities

ANet will make gold easier to get and of course Sigil of Fire and Eagle Runes will be like 10g a piece and Divinity Runes like 20g.

I’ve lost interest. Of course, saying anything negative will get me an infraction. Anyhow, I’m playing other games now.

I don’t like the grind in this game and WvW seems like the lowest priority for development when it should be the most important feature instead of another arena-style game we have all seen a hundred times before.

Nonlinear.9823:

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

Yah, you’re echoing my point.

Playing the game “normally” is engaging in the various activities provided for as long as they’re fun for you. Dynamic events, world exploration, dungeons, puzzles, WvW, PvP and, yes, farming.

The key there being: as long as they’re fun for you. People are going to have different thresholds for that. But when the fun stops, the grind begins.

What I’m saying is that there’s not enough there to keep most people engaged and having fun long enough to realistically meet the (crazy) item requirements without resorting to grind.

I’m fairly certain it’s not going to be enough for me, and I’m a gaming omnivore. I’ll do just about everything provided. Plus, I’m a roleplayer. That has the side effect of extending the game’s playability even further. Despite all this, though, I don’t see how I get any of these items without grind (or paying cash). And if I won’t be able to do it, how are people with even narrower preferences than my own going to do it?

If ANet doesn’t want grind, a viable alternative is going to have to be introduced. Right now, I don’t see it.

Grinding is entirely up to you. Some things in the game require it, but it is all optional.
It is perfectly possible to make money without farming at all.
A legendary is suppose to take a lot of time to achieve, not one month.
The people who work on new content, are not the same people who work on bugs.
I’m not sure what future expansions has got to do with this topic, though. Game economy and material gathering will/should stay the same regardless of a new expansion.

You know,i really like to farm,its like the only thing to do at 80.I have bought gems,but i like to earn my money,why do they make it so hard.To me a “grind” is doing dungeon after dungeon for gear,farming is relaxing to me.Please up the drop rates only if its just crap.

What will keep players playing once they have acquired the item they are grinding for?

This is the base issue imo. For me, I have no problem slowly gathering mats and gold over time as i’m enjoying playing the game with my other half.

If doing other activities in the game are no longer fun for you, and you resort to a linear form of grind to acquire currency etc, then those other activities will still not be entertaining after you have the new shiny.

It seems to me that, honestly, the diagnosis is to take a step back and maybe stop convincing yourself that you need the Legendary. You’ll most likely not use it for long anyway.

I am genuinely intrigued as to the answers though. Do you feel that you will enjoy the game once you have the new item you are grinding for? Or do you grind for the item to keep yourself ‘connected’ to the game and qualify your purchase?

edit: clarity

There’s a certain other game that currently requires the player to do a few dozen repetitive daily quests for weeks in order to get gear/item enhancements required to progress.

This is a mandatory grind.

This same game also has a subscription fee, but will additionally charge $25 for race/faction/server transfers per character, and $25/$10 for mounts/pets respectively that have better art/animations than the ones attainable in-game with no in-game method to obtain them.

This is a cash grab.

Some of the people on this board would do well to browse around some other forums/community sites and gain some perspective.

Any MMO is going to have some aspect of grind. That’s inherent to the genre. Getting to 80 and getting maximum gear (as it relates to item stats) is very reasonable in this game. Everything in this game that takes large amounts of time or is gem-store only is basically skins/dyes (yes a legendary is a skin). Boosters and mobile bank/AH/repair are pretty useless for the most part and available through story mode/world completion anyway. And let’s not forget that ANYTHING in this game is available without spending a dime of your real life $. Yes you will have to “grind” for it to convert to gems, but if you feel like WvW, dungeons, questing, and professions are a “grind” then why are you even playing the game?

If the process of getting a legendary (the journey) isn’t fun for you, then what are you going to do when you finally get it?

It’s not about making obtainment easier.

It’s about making the path to obtainment more engaging, so that we don’t even notice how long the path is.

If obtaining X is intended to take a year, then there better be enough content to keep me entertained for that year. Otherwise, forget X, and I won’t be around for the next paid expansion.

Hydrophidian.4319:

It’s not about making obtainment easier.

It’s about making the path to obtainment more engaging, so that we don’t even notice how long the path is.

If obtaining X is intended to take a year, then there better be enough content to keep me entertained for that year. Otherwise, forget X, and I won’t be around for the next paid expansion.

Some players have been quoted as saying that their /timeplayed is 1000+ hours.

Simply put, there is no game out there that, after a few months, can be expected to keep players busy for that long without some degree of repetition. Player-made content is the only thing that can create this massive amount of content for a decent amount of time, and currently GW2 is not set up for this. Nor should it be.

For 500-1000 hours of entertainment, there really are no ground for the ‘lack of content’ argument. This is not an attack btw. I think the perception of time vs effort is skewed because of the compressed time people have been playing without reasonable time-outs.

Hope that makes sense!

Nonlinear.9823:

It’s simple. When people see a grind to get something they want they start grinding.

Simply saying “yer doing it wrong!” is not a valid rebuttal. How else are you supposed to amass multiple 250 stacks of t6 materials without buying from TP or grinding for them in some way?

Are all of these high priced mats going to fall in your lap somehow if you simply log on every day for a year? You will not get the all from simply doing map completion or gathering tokens for the the other components of your legendary. You can get 500 tokens from dungeons and WvW a lot faster than you can get the ridiculous amount of mats needed for the other gifts.

Again, how exactly does one get multiple 250 stack of t6 items without using paypal or doing any sort of grinding?

let’s see, I completed my full explore of Straits of Devastation only to amass stacks of 15 of tier 6 mats. I tried grinding trolls for powerful blood in 70-80 zone for an hour, not only did I get bored, I got very little of it. Tried running dungeons and once again I’m getting drops of tier 5 mats, that can be upped to tier 6. Every time I get level 80 whites or blues I salvage them and sometimes get ori, sometimes get gossamer. Mats that I don’t need and am not going to use I sell and buy the ones that I do need.
You can amass the things needed indeed by simply playing the game. It doesn’t fall from the sky, but if you want to get yourself bored standing somewhere, killing the same enemy over and over again you’re not going to get it. So you might as well not try doing boring activities like those.

Now speaking about the problem of “it was easier for people before us to get legendaries”, I’ve heard a person that was playing from day 1 complain that when he bought his base exotic for legendary it cost 10 times more than what it does now. He was complaining that he needed to invest so much more time getting that some than the newbies need to invest now. Really it is just an economy, demand rises, demand falls, things get more expensive, things get cheaper.

Flynch.6034:

Some players have been quoted as saying that their /timeplayed is 1000+ hours.

I’m approaching that. Many items still look as though they’ll be unobtainable for me. That should be telling.

Simply put, there is no game out there that, after a few months, can be expected to keep players busy for that long without some degree of repetition.

This is a straw man. I’m not referring to repetition. Replayability of content is actually a big factor here because, yes, MMOs will never be able to keep up with the demand for new content.

What I’m saying is, for most players, the replayability isn’t there to support the requirements that have been introduced for many of these items (not just the Legendary tier). Not without resorting to grind. ANet claims it wants to minimize or eliminate grind. Its game model, as it stands, seems to say something altogether different.

And, again, I’m fairly easy to please. But there isn’t a single aspect of gameplay that isn’t going to get stale for me long before any of these requirements are met. So, with my bar being relatively low, I assume most people are going to hit that grind threshold before I do. The difference is, they might keep right on going, whereas I’ll simply stop.

There needs to be greater variety and greater complexity to sustain a longer-term engagement. One example, right off the top of my head, is to make story missions replayable. That’s a mileage opportunity that ANet has completely failed to exploit.

Solefald.8751:

In the latest patch, steeltide got stealth nerf. I have to say good job….you don’t want us to farm, and you keep nerfing every single money/material source. What’s the point for this? t6 materials for a legendary is just insane if you want to buy it from TP. If you continue to do this, I’ll realy consider buying further expansions…..also fix your game don’t do content patches in every month, no point in it.

If you don’t like grinding for the worst rewards ever given in an RPG in the history of CRPGs, please purchase some gems!

/s

Hydrophidian.4319:

Flynch.6034:

Some players have been quoted as saying that their /timeplayed is 1000+ hours.

I’m approaching that. Many items still look as though they’ll be unobtainable for me. That should be telling.

Simply put, there is no game out there that, after a few months, can be expected to keep players busy for that long without some degree of repetition.

This is a straw man. I’m not referring to repetition. Replayability of content is actually a big factor here because, yes, MMOs will never be able to keep up with the demand for new content.

What I’m saying is, for most players, the replayability isn’t there to support the requirements that have been introduced for many of these items (not just the Legendary tier). Not without resorting grind. ANet claims it wants to minimize or eliminate grind. Its game model, as it stands, seems to say something altogether different.

And, again, I’m fairly easy to please. But there isn’t a single aspect of gameplay that isn’t going to get stale for me long before any of these requirements are met. So, with my bar being relatively low, I assume most people are going to hit that grind threshold before I do. The difference is, they might keep right on going, whereas I’ll simply stop.

There needs to be greater variety and greater complexity to sustain a longer-term engagement. One example, right off the top of my head, is to make story missions replayable. That’s a mileage opportunity that ANet has completely failed to exploit.

You have somewhat confused me here though. You state that my opinion on the unavoidable repetition of content is a strawman, but you then to go on to say that there needs to be greater variety and greater complexity?

This is exactly my point. I was under the impression that a grind is to repeat an action – and to this end, the repetition in GW2 is what the major complaint is about with regards to the grind.

To sum up – the only way to avoid a grind is to either re-hash content or inject new content into the game. I think we are both agreed on that, surely?

But after a few months since launch, all content has been utterly used up by serious players, and many others have barely even begun to experience it themselves. This is not a thinly veiled attempt to say ‘slow down’ as I do appreciate that people play games for different periods of time, but I also think it’s fair enough that to get 1000+ hours out of a game within the first few months is pretty good.

Really it comes down to, how long has a player genuinely been grinding for a Legendary for, and do they feel that it is too long. Most will say it is too long because of the repetition of the activities. But this brings us back to the original point where there is only so much content a game has that can sustain a player for so long at an accelerated rate.

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

After the Nov. 15 patch, i wont be spending a penny in their TP. And if grinding out mats for a legendary becomes more and more of a chore than fun, then I simply wont do it. And if arenanet makes these legendaries 10x more powerful than an Exotic, I’ll then quit the game.

As of right now legendary weapons are mandatory simply because they will always be best in slot no matter what.
That means no matter what is released they will be bumped up and infusions added in perpetuity. So the second the new weapons drop this become the most powerful without the extra grind of obtaining said weapons.

Yes there will be a huge grind I have heard that it will be on order of 2X ascend stuff now. That is subject to change but you get the point.

They lost 25% of the pop because of this patch and just lost 5% more since the grinders have their stuff and moved off into another game.They have Raids incoming and trinity type mechanics for Feb-march.

The grind is going to get much worse as they force you to spend money for gems because they will attempt to squeeze what is left of the population for revenue.
30%of the population gone in 2 weeks because of this. Mousey is a lousey who sqeeks all the night long.

They must balance the fun of this game. Some nerfs they are doing really take the interest in somethings. They aren’t aware that they must balance to still make it fun, not just balance and make an skill / gameplay balanced to others and become useless.

Narkosys.5173:

As of right now legendary weapons are mandatory simply because they will always be best in slot no matter what.
That means no matter what is released they will be bumped up and infusions added in perpetuity. So the second the new weapons drop this become the most powerful without the extra grind of obtaining said weapons.

Yes there will be a huge grind I have heard that it will be on order of 2X ascend stuff now. That is subject to change but you get the point.

They lost 25% of the pop because of this patch and just lost 5% more since the grinders have their stuff and moved off into another game.They have Raids incoming and trinity type mechanics for Feb-march.

The grind is going to get much worse as they force you to spend money for gems because they will attempt to squeeze what is left of the population for revenue.
30%of the population gone in 2 weeks because of this. Mousey is a lousey who sqeeks all the night long.

Well they said that they were planning on releasing Ascended with the other tiers at the start of the game, but it just wasn’t ready and that making it available only one way was a mistake, so they’re implementing all of the different ways of getting them. Also they’re not planning on making more tiers. And no, you don’t need legendaries. Yes, legendaries will get bumped, but the percentage of how much one gear tier is better than the next one is very low. That’s why a lot of people didn’t even bother to go for exotics.
Now another thing – introducing raids is a bad thing? You don’t like raids, don’t run them! Simple as that. I personally would like to see how Guild Wars 2 raids look, especially keeping in mind how different their dungeons are to other games.

“They lost 25% of the pop because of this patch and just lost 5% more since the grinders have their stuff and moved off into another game.They have Raids incoming and trinity type mechanics for Feb-march.

The grind is going to get much worse as they force you to spend money for gems because they will attempt to squeeze what is left of the population for revenue.
30%of the population gone in 2 weeks because of this. Mousey is a lousey who sqeeks all the night long.”

Where do you get your numbers from?

Flynch.6034:

Some players have been quoted as saying that their /timeplayed is 1000+ hours.

Simply put, there is no game out there that, after a few months, can be expected to keep players busy for that long without some degree of repetition. Player-made content is the only thing that can create this massive amount of content for a decent amount of time, and currently GW2 is not set up for this. Nor should it be.

For 500-1000 hours of entertainment, there really are no ground for the ‘lack of content’ argument. This is not an attack btw. I think the perception of time vs effort is skewed because of the compressed time people have been playing without reasonable time-outs.

Hope that makes sense!

It does make sense, but it misses the point. Some people are playing a lot, but still finding it difficult to obtain goals before tiring of the repetitive tasks (i.e., experiencing grind). You can say people have played for 1000 hours or 10000 hours and it is meaningless when not taking into account goal achievement and player interest. For example, let’s say a particular look is my current goal, and it happens to be the Ascalonian Catacombs set. I’ve played through multiple paths six times, but it’s starting to wear on me. It sure would be nice if there was more varied activities I could do to get that set, but there isn’t. I must continue to run this one dungeon despite it no longer being interesting, fun, or challenging.

I have played the game for 450+ hours, and found my time enjoyable. I agree there is a lot of content, but I also think there isn’t enough varied activities I can perform to achieve some of my goals. As much as I’d love obtaining The Juggernaut for looks, the current methods of obtaining legendaries are uninteresting. What would make them more interesting, for me, is adding narrative and exposition to their acquisition. To me, legendary weapons aren’t just about power, but also have legends about them. Make their acquisition a long quest (common usage of the term, not MMORPG exclamation variety), and not random luck + grinding if you want my interest in continuing on in Guild Wars. This formula could be applied to anything, not just legendaries, to keep my interest while accomplishing my goals.

Money talks…………..

Mirta.5029:

Do you NEED a legendary? Legendary was there as the ultimate goal skin that only a small dedicated number of players are supposed to have. If everyone got one it would be pointless.

^This^
The first thing “dedicated” players did was farm for Legendaries. Too many people got them too fast, and the Bot problem only compounded the issue by making some of the mats cheaper in the TP than they should have been.

IMO, the perfect solution to this entire mess would be to give Ascended gear the same stats as Legendary..which is the same stats as Exotics, and the only thing being different is the infusion slot. The infusion slot should only be good for countering the Agony condition, and otherwise, the gear is the same as any other Exotic, except for the slot and skins.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Farming isn’t inherently a bad thing. In fact, the daily achievements effectively promote that very behavior. When gameplay largely revolves around collecting stuff for other stuff, farming is going to happen. And it can be fun (though tolerance levels will vary). A lot of players enjoy the activity.

Grinding, on the other hand, isn’t about fun. It’s about continuing to do something even after it stops being fun, strictly for the rewards involved.

Grind, then, is subjective. People have different thresholds for it. But what we can be pretty certain about is that almost everyone does have a threshold that they will hit, eventually.

Many of the requirements in this game for various items (not just the Legendary tier) fairly well scream farming and grind. Or paying real money (but that’s not really a game, is it).

Do these items need to be pursued? No. They are indeed optional. But what if someone wants one of these items? What are the options then?

1. Grind.
2. Buy what’s needed with real money.
3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

If the developers don’t want the first option to be viable, and if we assume that this isn’t one big scam to funnel everyone into option #2… then there needs to be enough content to support #3.

This is where I’m seeing a problem. Right now, there just isn’t enough there. Not for me. And I’m not particularly difficult to please on that front.

Sure, dungeons will keep me occupied for a time. WvW will entertain me for a while. But do I see these activities engaging me long enough for me to reach the required levels of materials and currencies needed to actually obtain any big items? No. No, I don’t. That means, if I want to gain them from gameplay, I’ll need to grind (which I won’t do).

To me, ANet is saying one thing, but their design model is saying another. I’ve been extending the benefit of the doubt, assuming that this isn’t a concerted effort to fleece me, but that’s becoming an increasingly harder position to maintain.

Don’t want the game to be seen as a grindfest? Then, in the coming months, I’ll need to see fundamental gameplay improved and expanded upon, a more varied palette of content introduced (and alternate paths for obtainment of various items integrated into that palette), and support for community building. What I don’t need to see is more types of loot and currencies to choke my storage, more “mystery chest” shenanigans, and an escalation of drop stinginess.

I totally agree with you. I just have not had much motivation to play currently. I like the fractals but the way it is designed it takes too long to form a group to actually play it. The farm items the DR prevents you from doing that pretty much.
After 2 years of not playing that other game, I decided to try it out again and am having some good fun in it. Yes there is quite a bit of grind in it, but at least I feel like I am getting rewarded at the end of it. Also they have made it much easier to acquire the gear that you need. I do not have to wait around for hours looking for a group because I can just click a dungeon finder and bam I am in playing and not waiting.

I like GW2, but it seems to be drifting in a direction that I thought the game was not going to be. If it does add raids and such, what makes it any different than anything else out there. To me if I want to grind, let me grind and not be penalized. If I want to dungeons then let me be able to do them without spending hours searching for a group.

Just my 2 cents worth

SHM.7628:

Solefald.8751:

Yes I have to say you are right. But things are getting worse since the lost shores patch.

As far as I was concerned, lost shores was the final nail in their coffin. After they made my level 80 exotics obsolete, there was no turning back. I deleted the characters and uninstalled the game.

Since lost shores (or the final insult as I like to call it) I haven’t even been mildly tempted to play again.

If you love grind ( I do not) there’s lots of Korean grinders out there that are way more fun anyway. The joke’s on them, because they’ll get no cash shop purchases from me now.

Except for your exotics weren’t obsolete.

Drama queens strike again.

Flynch.6034:

You have somewhat confused me here though.

Mesmer FTW! \o/

You state that my opinion on the unavoidable repetition of content is a strawman, but you then to go on to say that there needs to be greater variety and greater complexity?

Yup. Complexity speaks directly to replayability (repetition). For example, improving the AI would make combat a more complex and involved experience. This would extend the mileage of basic gameplay.

This is exactly my point. I was under the impression that a grind is to repeat an action – and to this end, the repetition in GW2 is what the major complaint is about with regards to the grind.

No, grind is to repeat an action without any fun involved. It’s engaging in that repetitive action strictly for the rewards, long after the entertainment value has bottomed out. It’s a chore.

If I play 3 games of chess in a row, Am I “grinding chess”? No, I’m repeating that activity ‘cuz I’m finding it fun. When I reach my saturation point, I’ll stop. Grinding is continuing beyond that saturation point.

Which means grind is, to an extent, relative. People have different thresholds for it. But we can assume just about everyone has a threshold, or else it wouldn’t be an issue.

It looks to me that the current model of the game promotes going beyond that threshold, even for people who’ve invested a great deal of time into the game already.

To sum up – the only way to avoid a grind is to either re-hash content or inject new content into the game. I think we are both agreed on that, surely?

Ways to avoid grind:

1. Lower requirements.
2. Introduce multiple paths to requirement.
3. Improve replayability of existing content.
4. When introducing new content, expand the variety of activities available.

If unwilling to do #1, then #2, #3 and #4 need to be robust enough to maintain player interest and engagement for a longer period of time.

Nonlinear.9823:

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

Hey good luck with making your OWN mmorpg I would definitely play that one, infinite content. Every day new dungeon, every day new map and story

Nice. I am really looking forward

It looks to me that you never played any mmorpg before. MMORPGs always involve farming, repeating content. ALWAYS. And many people enjoy it, like myself.

Arenanet never said there is no grind involved in Guild Wars 2. They said you dont have to grind/farm to be on pair with everyone else (stat wise) but if you want the best, the most unique and the most rare weapon (Legendary) you have to WORK HARD for it.

So please try to understand this.

Dogblaster.6713:

mavet.3047:

SHM.7628:

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

Very transparent, but not very smart. People don’t spend money on a game they don’t enjoy.

I agree with you 120% on this but I’m just saying what their sick mind state is. The “devs” have taken a game with such great potential and turned it into a piece of stinking crap.

That is your oppinion and if you are still playing something that is stinking crap for you its really sad.

I have 1200 hours play in Guild War 2, I crafted my Juggernaut yesterday and I enjoy the game really a lot. Its one of the best mmorpg I have played for last 9 years and I played almost every one released

Dont like it? No one is forcing you to play At least I hope no one does

1200 hours? 12 hours per day…..I have a real life, do you?

Flynch.6034:

But after a few months since launch, all content has been utterly used up by serious players, and many others have barely even begun to experience it themselves.

“All content” has been used up by linear players.

I’m most assuredly a serious player but, again, I’m an omnivore. I’ve yet to get thru all the content. It’ll be a while yet (couple-few more months, probably).

This is not a thinly veiled attempt to say ‘slow down’ as I do appreciate that people play games for different periods of time, but I also think it’s fair enough that to get 1000+ hours out of a game within the first few months is pretty good.

Yup. And yet, it’s not been enough of an investment for the obtainment of various items. So, the playability has to be extended. Otherwise, you get grind. And ANet allegedly doesn’t want grind.

Hydrophidian.4319:

It’s not about making obtainment easier.

It’s about making the path to obtainment more engaging, so that we don’t even notice how long the path is.

If obtaining X is intended to take a year, then there better be enough content to keep me entertained for that year. Otherwise, forget X, and I won’t be around for the next paid expansion.

Legendary weapons are supposed to be crafted by around 5% total player base. Why should Arenanet spend tons of money to create some unique content for 5% of player base? That is riddiculous.

Legendary weapons are just UNIQUE WEAPONS. They are not content, they are not story involved, nothing .. You go for it only when you want the super uber skin, but you need to put required effort in !!

Dogblaster.6713:

Nonlinear.9823:

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

Hey good luck with making your OWN mmorpg I would definitely play that one, infinite content. Every day new dungeon, every day new map and story

Nice. I am really looking forward

It looks to me that you never played any mmorpg before. MMORPGs always involve farming, repeating content. ALWAYS. And many people enjoy it, like myself.

Arenanet never said there is no grind involved in Guild Wars 2. They said you dont have to grind/farm to be on pair with everyone else (stat wise) but if you want the best, the most unique and the most rare weapon (Legendary) you have to WORK HARD for it.

So please try to understand this.

I’ve played a lot of MMOs numbering into the 50+, and these kind of comments come from the stinking bodies of dying MMOs. It’s that desperate hope and longing for something to live. That denial of the facts, that tell you when a MMO is really under siege. I’ve seen these kinds of posts before, and I see them popping up all over this board. Those posts of denial, all the way up until they pull the plug.

there is nothing wrong with grinding. problem is when u grind and get no loot…

Hydrophidian.4319:

edited for keeping the page a reasonable length!

I do see where you are coming from. And of course I agree that to make things more entertaining you have to add diversity and breadth etc.

But that’s common sense. We’re dealing with what we have on the table right now, and these amendments to content may or may not come out, but if/when they do, it will be in the future.

It is my personal opinion that the content they have as of right now is sufficient for the age of the game, the length of development time and the required items in-game.

Would I like to see increased AI? Of course! Would I like to have a host of other activities? Of course! I also have no doubt that these will be implemented at some point. Fishing is pretty much the top of the tree for me at the moment (nudge nudge wink wink Anet)

However, the caveat here is that I only play casually, with very limited time. So by the time I’m faced with anything I feel I really want, i’ll either have the mats and cash already for it, or new content will have been brought out that lends itself to increasing the fun when attempting to acquire the items.

I also have no doubt that currently their [Anet] proposed model did not take into account 1000+ hours played since release. If that was 90 days (give or take) you’re looking at 11 hours a day. Would they have liked to have more content and more diversity? Of course, as much as the players would like it too, but they probably saw fit not to worry about the side-content too much as they felt the main content was enough.

I just feel that they are trying to promote a ‘chill out and kick back’ attitude by using DR and RNG to dictate items etc. Is it frustrating for certain players? Of course it is. But that’s really down to the fact that these items are something they badly want rather than badly need. I like to think that these highly sought-after items would be something you gradually earn rather than soldier straight towards.

Again this is only my opinion. I’ve already stated that I understand various playstyles, but they may simply not fit with the game itself.

If Anet really wanted people to grind and keep grinding or pay through the nose for gems, they would have made Exotics insanely expensive.

Anyway – i’m off for a bit! Was a good discussion though and lots to consider on both sides.

Volomon.9147:

Dogblaster.6713:

Nonlinear.9823:

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

Hey good luck with making your OWN mmorpg I would definitely play that one, infinite content. Every day new dungeon, every day new map and story

Nice. I am really looking forward

It looks to me that you never played any mmorpg before. MMORPGs always involve farming, repeating content. ALWAYS. And many people enjoy it, like myself.

Arenanet never said there is no grind involved in Guild Wars 2. They said you dont have to grind/farm to be on pair with everyone else (stat wise) but if you want the best, the most unique and the most rare weapon (Legendary) you have to WORK HARD for it.

So please try to understand this.

I’ve played a lot of MMOs numbering into the 50+, and these kind of comments come from the stinking bodies of dying MMOs. It’s that desperate hope and longing for something to live. That denial of the facts, that tell you when a MMO is really under siege. I’ve seen these kinds of posts before, and I see them popping up all over this board. Those posts of denial, all the way up until they pull the plug.

I’ve played plenty of games and MMOs and I’ve seen these kind of posts springing up on very lively and currently still alive MMOs. It’s kind of like “the end of the world is coming” people in reality. All decide to yell “the sky is falling”, when it isn’t. Having in mind that Guild Wars 2 is now considered the most popular MMO after WoW, I would say that even if we lost a lot of our player base it could still live on. It would have less servers, yes, but that’s about the impact that it would have.

Volomon.9147:

Dogblaster.6713:

Nonlinear.9823:

Hydrophidian.4319:

3. Play the game normally, and collect what’s needed over a long period of time.

Play the game normally, what does this even mean?

I am confused about what this, how does it work? How do you play the game “normally”?

If you do 100% map completion you won’t get all the 250 stacks of t6 mats you need. Not even close. What other “normal” stuff is there to do? Wander around in Orr? Kill Jormag 1,000,000x? Stand around bored in LA?

Hey good luck with making your OWN mmorpg I would definitely play that one, infinite content. Every day new dungeon, every day new map and story

Nice. I am really looking forward

It looks to me that you never played any mmorpg before. MMORPGs always involve farming, repeating content. ALWAYS. And many people enjoy it, like myself.

Arenanet never said there is no grind involved in Guild Wars 2. They said you dont have to grind/farm to be on pair with everyone else (stat wise) but if you want the best, the most unique and the most rare weapon (Legendary) you have to WORK HARD for it.

So please try to understand this.

I’ve played a lot of MMOs numbering into the 50+, and these kind of comments come from the stinking bodies of dying MMOs. It’s that desperate hope and longing for something to live. That denial of the facts, that tell you when a MMO is really under siege. I’ve seen these kinds of posts before, and I see them popping up all over this board. Those posts of denial, all the way up until they pull the plug.

Can you please tell me those mmorpgs without repeating content please? Or we are talking about some Single player games like Mass effect?

I played only Aion, WoW, Swtor, Lineage, GW 1, Tera, Warhammer online, Rift, Lotro, AoC, Vanguard and few more.

and btw … I enjoy repeating content. I do enjoy running same dungeons over again for armor, weapon drops, etc. I also enjoy farming gold and collecting material and I think these are one of the biggest parts of MMORPGs. In fact, these are the major reasons why I play mmorpgs.

I dont care about vertical progression so thats is why I play Guild Wars 2. Everything I do is for skins and those are optional. You dont like farm/repeating content? So dont go for skins that requires it

By the way. You dont need to grind in Guild Wars 2 ever. Just stop beeing unpatient wanting your Legendary weapon in 2 months instead of year that it suppose to take.

Doing 2-3 dungeon per day and then maybe one hour of cursed shore is not grind by far This way you can get your Legendary in year or so and that how Areanet wants you to do it.

It’s only a grind if you make it one, there’s different ways to enjoy games than only from getting shineys.
The way I see it, a legendary is something loyal players “natually” get over a longer period of time depending on how many hours you play.
Going out to grind specifically for a legendary is just insane imo and maybe a little bit pathetic that you can’t enjoy the game without having one.

holska.4127:

It’s only a grind if you make it one, there’s different ways to enjoy games than only from getting shineys.

Hahahahahah! That’s rich.

You have to grind if you want to get any sort of reward this century. Ascended items are a massive grind, around 100+ hours of nothing but hardcore grinding for a single item (or double that for an infused version).

“Just playing” you probably won’t even ever afford an exotic set at current prices, much less be able to get cosmetic items or Ascended gear.

Dogblaster.6713:

MMORPGs always involve farming, repeating content. ALWAYS.

Farming is not synonymous with grind.

Repeating content is not synonymous with grind.

The replay value of content is something MMOs need to be concerned about for what should be obvious reasons.

If grind is to be avoided, I think this game needs to have its replay value increased quite a bit.

Arenanet never said there is no grind involved in Guild Wars 2.

I believe, “We don’t make grindy games” is the direct quote?

They said you dont have to grind/farm to be on pair with everyone else (stat wise)

Which doesn’t appear as though it’ll be the case for me, and I’ve already put a lot of time into this game. The game’s replay value is going to run out before I get “geared up”. And I won’t grind. So that’ll be the end of the road for me, unless some serious adjustments are made.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

holska.4127:

It’s only a grind if you make it one, there’s different ways to enjoy games than only from getting shineys.

Hahahahahah! That’s rich.

You have to grind if you want to get any sort of reward this century. Ascended items are a massive grind, around 100+ hours of nothing but hardcore grinding for a single item (or double that for an infused version).

“Just playing” you probably won’t even ever afford an exotic set at current prices, much less be able to get cosmetic items or Ascended gear.

uuuhhh. Ran fractals 3 times, already have vial of the mists and able to make one ascended item… I don’t see the grind here.
Exotics are 10 – 15 gold for the whose set, if you were gathering while leveling and not spending your money like crazy you should be able to afford it.

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

Not really, even A.net knows that with the exchange rates from gems to gold not very many people will go down that route to reduce the time required to acquire whatever items you’re after as compared to gaining it through gameplay.
If some rich kids are able to do so, good for them and good for A.net but the average gamer won’t buy say 100G with gems.
It would be different if they added the mats they nerfed the droprate for to the gem store. But assuming they do it to get players to buy gold is a bit too much conspiracy theory. I’m sure they have a reason whatever it may be.

Imbune.5497:

Furthermore you’re attacking the symptom not the cause. ANet doesn’t make TP prices-it is us, the players. Yes that very nasty word that many of you don’t like, it’s our RESPONSIBILITY (seems to me a lot of you who scream I have the ‘right to x’ or the ‘freedom to y’ also conveniently forget that those virtues are tied to responsibility-both on a personal level and community level)to not generate additional gates for content (even aesthetic ones). Let me ask you-if the nerf was still in effect, but the greedy, childish, short-sighted community DIDN’T inflate prices to mimic the recession-would this be an issue?

In a free(ish) market price is dependent on supply and demand. If prices rise it’s because demand outstrips supply. If prices fall it’s because supply outstrips demand. We control demand, the dev team controls supply.

Are you saying that it’s short sighted and greedy for us to want a superior sigil of fire?