Guild Wars 2

SirMoogie.9263:

It’s a usage of the term among English speakers ¹, oft heard in common parlance in the phrase “the daily grind” ². It was also defined this way by Chris in his recent AMA ³.

¹ – Grind – Definition (v.tr. 6 and n. 4)
² – Daily Grind
³ – Reddit AMA – Grind Definition

1. Nothing about enjoyment
2. Nothing about enjoyment
3. Smb’s personal definition, not the official one. Since this is the only one that actually mentions lack of enjoyment as part of the meaning, you should’ve said “by Chris’s definition” instead of the misleading “by definition”.

TWMagimay.9057

1. Nothing about enjoyment
2. Nothing about enjoyment

You will find few who consider “laborious” synonymous with “enjoyment”, and many who consider laborious activities unenjoyable (i.e., “tiresome”, “arduous”, “tedious” are synonyms, not “amusing” or “delightful”) . For example,

Speaker 1: I just spent my day laboriously washing dishes.
Speaker 2: That must have been enjoyable.

Most English speakers would take Speaker 2 to be sarcastic. You would be one of the rare English speakers that takes Speaker 2 seriously.

3. Smb’s personal definition,

What does “smb” mean?

not the official one. Since this is the only one that actually mentions lack of enjoyment as part of the meaning,

There are no “official” definitions. Words are not carved out in nature for us to discover, they are vehicles of communication developed, used, and sometimes codified by communities of social creatures and can vary substantially in their use between communities. In the Guild Wars 2 community, and probably among English speaking MMORPG communities as a whole, “grind” is mostly considered to be an unenjoyable, repetitive activity performed to accomplish a goal. Chris Whiteside’s definition closely approximates the common usage among MMORPG players.

you should’ve said “by Chris’s definition” instead of the misleading “by definition”.

I didn’t say “by definition”, your charge of misleading is unwarranted.

SirMoogie.9263:

You will find few who consider “laborious” synonymous with “enjoyment”, and many who consider laborious activities unenjoyable (i.e., “tiresome”, “arduous”, “tedious” are synonyms, not “amusing” or “delightful”) . For example,

Speaker 1: I just spent my day laboriously washing dishes.
Speaker 2: That must have been enjoyable.

Most English speakers would take Speaker 2 to be sarcastic. You would be one of the rare English speakers that takes Speaker 2 seriously.

But that is about personal understanding of a word and what that person associates with said word and not so much about the actual definition. Just like some people find visits to the dentist unenjoyable (while I do, I like getting compliments) or people who find getting flowers enjoyable(I don’t because I’m extremely allergic to most).

What does “smb” mean?

And here I thought that with all your “English Speaker” stuff you’d have opened a grammar book or a dictionary at some point in your life. Smb is short for somebody.

There are no “official” definitions. Words are not carved out in nature for us to discover, they are vehicles of communication developed, used, and sometimes codified by communities of social creatures and can vary substantially in their use between communities. In the Guild Wars 2 community, and probably among English speaking MMORPG communities as a whole, “grind” is mostly considered to be an unenjoyable, repetitive activity performed to accomplish a goal. Chris Whiteside’s definition closely approximates the common usage among MMORPG players.

That’d be what we, non-English speakers, call a connotation, not definition.

I didn’t say “by definition”, your charge of misleading is unwarranted.

Oh, so you are not the same person I quoted and directly asked for source… Then why did you assume that role by putting words in his/her mouth? Maybe s/he would’ve been able to provide an actual definition that meets the requirements instead of confusing a definition with a connotation…. Is that what “English Speakers” do?

TWMagimay.9057:

But that is about personal understanding of a word and what that person associates with said word and not so much about the actual definition.

Irrelevent. To foster communication we try to frame our language to our audience. MMO players use “grind” to mean a laborious, tedious activity. It is not an endearing term. That someone personally thinks “grind” means an activity full of fun, excitement, and whimsy is neither here nor there when speaking to an audience that thinks the opposite. At the very least they owe their audience a disclaimer that says they are using this word in a way the audience doesn’t typically hear it.

And here I thought that with all your “English Speaker” stuff you’d have opened a grammar book or a dictionary at some point in your life. Smb is short for somebody.

Thanks for taking the time to laboriously inform me. I’m sure it was enjoyable for you.

That’d be what we, non-English speakers, call a connotation, not definition.

No, I’m very much talking about the denotation of the term in MMORPG communities, not the extra baggage. I never accused you of not speaking English, so don’t start down that road.

Oh, so you are not the same person I quoted and directly asked for source… Then why did you assume that role by putting words in his/her mouth?

I never attributed to them my position. Your charge of false attribution is also unwarranted. Don’t blame me for your mistakes.

Looria.8019:

So by definition 90% of GW2 is grind unless you enjoy griding itself. (cause then you are having fun while doing so and so its not grind anymore)

I actually think the game’s pretty solid (for its first few months). I’ve derived many, many hours of enjoyment from it so far, and with more to come. As I mentioned up thread, I’ve certainly gotten my money’s worth out of it.

My criticism is regarding the requirements for many items in relation to the replay value of the game. I don’t think they’re balanced. The level of time investment and focus required are not supported by the content… which leads to grind.

If this is what the developers intended, then that’s that. But we’ve been given (ample) reason to believe it’s not what they want, and that’s why a lot of folks came to this game in the first place.

So, they either need to reduce requirements, direct attention to replay value of present and future content, or hit upon some combination of the two.

I think this issue is related to the other issues I have with the game, in that they all ultimately stem from monetization concerns. But that’s pure speculation on my part, and beyond the scope of this thread.

I don’t grind. Thus, as things stand, long-term retention of my commitment is doubtful. I’m already seriously looking at another title that’s been making some of the same promises ANet did. I doubt I’m the only one.

I think ANet needs us to stop doing that. For me, the determining factor will be the direction of development in the next few months.

tend to agree. i have 2 80s and there is nothing but grind to look forward to – karma, gold, fractuals, w3 tokens – its all a massive grind fest. oh well – got my $s worth playing up to this point.

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

With all due respect, I’ve been laughing to myself over this since the thread began and as I kept following, it started to feel disingenuous to keep my opinion to myself while silently judging anybody who makes this claim so much.

As someone who has not spent (and absolutely will not spend) any real money on gems, yet has purchased about 2500 gems’ worth of stuff from the gem store, it’s a pretty patently ridiculous premise. Furthermore, even if I had spent $200 of my hard-earned cash on gems, I’m drawing a blank as to what advantage it is that you, mavet, and anyone who agrees with you, believe I would have over the version of myself that hadn’t. Help me out!

Man if this game is grinding to you guys, must have never played Tera or Aion or any other MMO for that matter.

In less then a week my fresh 80 almost has a full set of exotic armor, yes I do still need a Longbow and Trinkets, but in other games that armor would have taken months, if I got it at all…

I happen to like a bit of a grind, because it feels more rewarding that way. I played Silkroad till the midlevels without any aids that costed real life money in a couple of months. But Silkroad was indeed TOO much grind.

I like Guild Wars 2 but somehow I have this love hate relationship with it. I can’t help but feel like being slap on my fingers by Anet while playing the game. I find Guild Wars 2 to be a bit restiricting in some ways.

The biggest one being a SERIOUS lack of things to show off or appear ‘cool’

So I’m just waiting here for a new Korean MMORPG that was released in Korea 6 months ago. It’s P2P but seems worth it and it’s at the TOP (1st place) of the games played by Koreans.

I love Korean MMORPGs, they atleast let you show off.

TWMagimay.9057:

SirMoogie.9263:

It’s a usage of the term among English speakers ¹, oft heard in common parlance in the phrase “the daily grind” ². It was also defined this way by Chris in his recent AMA ³.

¹ – Grind – Definition (v.tr. 6 and n. 4)
² – Daily Grind
³ – Reddit AMA – Grind Definition

1. Nothing about enjoyment
2. Nothing about enjoyment
3. Smb’s personal definition, not the official one. Since this is the only one that actually mentions lack of enjoyment as part of the meaning, you should’ve said “by Chris’s definition” instead of the misleading “by definition”.

Re: 3 – Firstly, the somebody in question is not some random shmo, but is the Design Director for the very game being discussed. Context matters. Secondly, what he’s related in the quote isn’t so much a personal definition as it’s the understanding of the word in the common language of the industry and culture. He’s the design lead on an MMO, for pete’s sake. Ask the question of anyone else in a similar position and you’ll no doubt get more or less the same answer. It’s just that obvious.

Re: 1, 2 – Lack of enjoyment and fun is implicit in words such as laborious and uninspired. Grind is dull, routine, monotonous. In other words: not enjoyable.

In the context of MMO design, this is obviously what the word is meant to convey. Trying to create ambiguity around this point undermines the fundamental premise of the discussion. That is to say, to assert or imply that grind can be enjoyed is to contradict the underlying assumption of this thread, as well as the larger dialogue about the subject, in which the game’s developers are involved: grind is not a good thing. This is the foundational point on which all in the discussion agree. In the context of this exchange, it goes without saying.

So, if you don’t agree… if you’re challenging the notion that lack of enjoyment is a defining attribute of grind… and if you’re trying to redefine the word’s common usage in the context of MMO game design… you should really be putting that in its own thread. It’s a different topic. Good luck with selling that, and I’ll look forward to seeing the cited definition that supports your claim.

Meanwhile, I’ll continue to operate under the understanding that grind is uninspired, laborious, dull, etc, to wit: lacks enjoyment, by definition. And as such, is something to be reduced or avoided completely, which is allegedly the intended design goal.

Hydrophidian.4319:

TWMagimay.9057:

SirMoogie.9263:

It’s a usage of the term among English speakers ¹, oft heard in common parlance in the phrase “the daily grind” ². It was also defined this way by Chris in his recent AMA ³.

¹ – Grind – Definition (v.tr. 6 and n. 4)
² – Daily Grind
³ – Reddit AMA – Grind Definition

1. Nothing about enjoyment
2. Nothing about enjoyment
3. Smb’s personal definition, not the official one. Since this is the only one that actually mentions lack of enjoyment as part of the meaning, you should’ve said “by Chris’s definition” instead of the misleading “by definition”.

Re: 3 – Firstly, the somebody in question is not some random shmo, but is the Design Director for the very game being discussed. Context matters. Secondly, what he’s related in the quote isn’t so much a personal definition as it’s the understanding of the word in the common language of the industry and culture. He’s the design lead on an MMO, for pete’s sake. Ask the question of anyone else in a similar position and you’ll no doubt get more or less the same answer. It’s just that obvious.

Re: 1, 2 – Lack of enjoyment and fun is implicit in words such as laborious and uninspired. Grind is dull, routine, monotonous. In other words: not enjoyable.

In the context of MMO design, this is obviously what the word is meant to convey. Trying to create ambiguity around this point undermines the fundamental premise of the discussion. That is to say, to assert or imply that grind can be enjoyed is to contradict the underlying assumption of this thread, as well as the larger dialogue about the subject, in which the game’s developers are involved: grind is not a good thing. This is the foundational point on which all in the discussion agree. In the context of this exchange, it goes without saying.

So, if you don’t agree… if you’re challenging the notion that lack of enjoyment is a defining attribute of grind… and if you’re trying to redefine the word’s common usage in the context of MMO game design… you should really be putting that in its own thread. It’s a different topic. Good luck with selling that, and I’ll look forward to seeing the cited definition that supports your claim.

Meanwhile, I’ll continue to operate under the understanding that grind is uninspired, laborious, dull, etc, to wit: lacks enjoyment, by definition. And as such, is something to be reduced or avoided completely, which is allegedly the intended design goal.

This is exactly where I stand right now. I logged in last night, had a friend lead me to a jump puzzle (I have 3 80s and 670 hours in the game), helped him with some quest chain to hopefully get a drop (as usual just a chest of blues/greens) and at the end I looked around and was bored kittenless. I checked the WvW map and couldn’t bring myself to wander in that circle again.

The game is far more grindy than WoW and that’s saying something. I have purchased three versions of this game and two versions of all XPACS for GW1 for my kids. My kids won’t play much GW2 after loving GW1 (I didnt like it) because it’s boring and a “grind”. My oldest son said this by level 10, by the time you’re level 80 the game is plain dull. My entire guild except one guy has left, we are all LONG time MMO vets and just are bored out of our mind and refuse to keep grinding karma etc for no good rewards.

So I will say I’m a forum poster posting for eight people that are no longer playing or playing VERY sparingly. So at what point are forum posters NOT the minority?

@TWMagimay:

If you want to contest the meaning of grind, I would request the following:

1. Any support for your alternative spin on the word: that grind can (and often does) involve fun and enjoyment.
2. An alternative term that represents the concept of: “repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time” that can replace “grind”.

Because that’s actually what everyone’s talking about. Trying to obscure the meaning of “grind” in this context won’t change that. If you want to continue to insist that “grind” can be enjoyed… then, under your view, no one’s actually talking about “grind”. They’re talking about: “repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.” So, if you don’t want to use “grind” for that, you’re going to have to come up with something else that fits for you.

Freyvin.5690:

So at what point are forum posters NOT the minority?

Serious question? Sometimes I still feel like I’m just being toyed with constantly around here.

PearlGore.7419:

Man if this game is grinding to you guys, must have never played Tera or Aion or any other MMO for that matter.

In less then a week my fresh 80 almost has a full set of exotic armor, yes I do still need a Longbow and Trinkets, but in other games that armor would have taken months, if I got it at all…

Nobody is talking about exotics. You can a full set of 80 exotics with your first character before you ever hit 80. They most likely mean ascended which is pure RNG.

Hawkian.6580:

Freyvin.5690:

So at what point are forum posters NOT the minority?

Serious question? Sometimes I still feel like I’m just being toyed with constantly around here.

I understand the technical term minority, and I saw GW2 official poster say forum users ARE a minority, but I am saying that I represent the expressions of eight players. Sure of two million that seems small, but I’ll go on record that MOST people that come on here kittening are voicing their own grievance, but also of friends and family that have played or play this game as well. So eventually we’re not a minority we’re polling data and right now GW2 is trending down faster than the GOP from where I stand.

My main three reasons, the fractal grind, the horrible badge drop grind, the tokens that don’t allow purchases from any dungeon but the one you are in, grind and the horrific economy. Nothing I do or make in this game (I have 4 400 level crafters) is worth anything. The whole economy is based on farming/grinding the same kitten creatures over and over again.

In all I’d say the developers missed the mark on most of their promises that I remember reading over the phone to my brother and sons that were so excited about what this game was going to be.

Perspective is everything and “from where you stand” is absolutely the key phrase in that paragraph.

You provided some anecdotal evidence that the game is going down the tubes. If I thought there would be some tangible impact, I’d respond anecdotally that my guild has far, far more than 8 regularly active members, and that fewer than 8 of them actual post here (and who could blame them, really? :P), and that thus everything is actually going just fine and this hysteria is nothing more than hysterical.

But instead of responding with anecdotal evidence I just wanted to point out the obvious: that forum posters will always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always be the minority. Of course ArenaNet pays attention to these forums, and of course they reply at a pretty decent rate, and even announce priorities and clarify whether or not things are intentional on these very pages, but on the whole, THIS sort of thread is not indicative of… well, anything. We’re not polling data; we’re noise. I know this is hard to accept, but it really is the truth. And while that may be bad news for you, it’s not bad news for everyone.

Hawkian.6580:

Perspective is everything and “from where you stand” is absolutely the key phrase in that paragraph.

You provided some anecdotal evidence that the game is going down the tubes. If I thought there would be some tangible impact, I’d respond anecdotally that my guild has far, far more than 8 regularly active members, and that fewer than 8 of them actual post here (and who could blame them, really? :P), and that thus everything is actually going just fine and this hysteria is nothing more than hysterical.

But instead of responding with anecdotal evidence I just wanted to point out the obvious: that forum posters will always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always be the minority. Of course ArenaNet pays attention to these forums, and of course they reply at a pretty decent rate, and even announce priorities and clarify whether or not things are intentional on these very pages, but on the whole, THIS sort of thread is not indicative of… well, anything. We’re not polling data; we’re noise. I know this is hard to accept, but it really is the truth. And while that may be bad news for you, it’s not bad news for everyone.

Look people still play EQ1, it doesn’t mean the game is trending the correct direction. The same people claiming SWTOR, Warhammer, Age of Conan etc were “fine” and that forum posters were minorities with real grievances were just “trolls” or the game was “fine” were wrong. Are you? I work in software support for a living, and let me tell you if our customers hated our product half as much as this forum and my kids/friends do, it would not look favorable on the stock price. What’s that ArenaNet Stock has been falling recently? Do tell.

Look I’m not doom and gloom, I’m saying their economy is a thinly veiled cash shop grab with how they “nerfed” the potions (err im sorry patched) and have nerfed other such “rare” drops lately. If you need cash SAY so, hell i’ll pay a sub if it means you don’t sneakily try to get money from me.

The grind is even worse to me than the stupid cash shop. It’s bad, it’s blatant and they said it wouldn’t be in the game and yet here it is like some Korean grinder.

ArenaNet isn’t a publicly traded company :-S

Seriously if you’re messing with me, I tip my hat to you in earnest.

Hawkian.6580:

ArenaNet isn’t a publicly traded company :-S

Seriously if you’re messing with me, I tip my hat to you in earnest.

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

You were saying? It’s under NCSoft.

…ArenaNet isn’t a publicly traded company. My bad for being unclear on that one!

I want one thing clear, I want this game to succeed, I want it to be fun again and not feel boring stale and grindy. I want to look forward to skinning animals or whatever for upgrades instead of standing in Frostgorge Sound about to rake my eyeballs out killing snow trolls, but right now it just isn’t. So Hawkian you and I are on the same side, I just happen to get irritated about all the concepts and promises that weren’t delivered. I guess I really believed the hype this would be “better” and that old DAOC RvR would be back.

PearlGore.7419:

Man if this game is grinding to you guys, must have never played Tera or Aion or any other MMO for that matter.

In less then a week my fresh 80 almost has a full set of exotic armor, yes I do still need a Longbow and Trinkets, but in other games that armor would have taken months, if I got it at all…

Just because those games have grinding at higher orders of magnitude than GW2 doesn’t mean that grinding in GW2 is nonexistent or has no basis to be considered insufferable. That’s like saying if you think dynamite is destructive, you must have never seen/heard about an atomic bomb…. doesn’t change the fact that they’re both destructive.

Yes other games take a long time to high end gear… because their entire premise is built around achieving it. GW1 had it’s grinds for skins, and I think most players don’t think too fondly on the severity of those grinds. This game was supposed to have content in tandem with horizontal progression be the main drivers; that somehow the actions of a server had dynamic consequences that would make the experience ever changing. What we got was really nothing that plays to this strength…. only pseudo-delivered promised that translate into weak endgame.

nofo.8469:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nofo.8469:

Take WoW for a PvE example, it’s less of a grind than this but it still feels highly rewarding.

That is a very subjective statement. For me, WoW was a horrible grind. Getting a WoW purple was just “gearing up so you can continue to gear up.” When I left WoW, I swore I would never get into that gear up infinite loop again. To me, that is as pointless as it gets.

GW2, on the other hand, does not match up to GW1 in terms of rewards. The drop rates in general in GW1 were better, the desirable rare drops were heck of rare, but you could get gold by doing many different things. Farming in GW2 is not yet as fun or as lucrative as it was in GW1. Maybe that will change.

True it is rather subjective. I’m talking about the post exotic gear grind in gw2, getting up to exotic was rewarding and not much of a grind at all.

Post-exo GW2 grind isn’t rewarding in the slightest and doesn’t hold a candle to their competition in the gear treadmill MMO sub-genre.

I see. I think it’s too soon to talk about the post-Exotic grind. I’m waiting to see how/if they follow through on statements made about putting the Ascended gear into other portions of the game, and looking at the current mechanics with regard to grind.

Freyvin, I can honestly sympathize with the game not living up to your expectations. By nature it couldn’t do so for everyone, but you have absolutely every right to be disappointed. It lived up to mine, but we were merely looking for different things in the end and that’s more than fine; in fact it’s a necessary component of the process of delivering an MMO that some people will be satisfied and others won’t.

I want to stress that I didn’t reply to you in defense of any particular qualities of the game. Your question about “when forum posters would not be the minority” stood out to me just because of the objective facts of the case; that, right or wrong, they always will be.

It’s also important to draw a distinction between “success” and your personal enjoyment. By all reasonable metrics- critical and commercial- the game has already been a fairly resounding success. Of course we will see how things go from here, but watch the horizon for numerous Game of the Year nominations about to be announced in the next few days and weeks.

Where it has not succeeded is in being enjoyable to you and your friends (past a certain point- one imagines that during your 670 hours across three 80s, you enjoyed some portion of the experience). And that is regrettable. I’m just saying that perspective is a very important thing.

I leave you with this thought (I’m sure you’ve heard it before, and I don’t mean to be redundant): if you feel the game right now is boring, grindy, and stale, but look forward to a day when it is not those things to you any longer- there’s nothing to be lost by simply taking a break until you hear about significant changes and then coming back and giving it a try. I don’t mean this at all in the “if you don’t like it, then don’t play it” sense- I mean that obviously you want to like it, but there’s no sense in having to strain to do so, and you’re not struggling to get your money’s worth at this point. You might like the direction things go one day, and you might not.

Hydrophidian.4319:

@TWMagimay:

If you want to contest the meaning of grind, I would request the following:

1. Any support for your alternative spin on the word: that grind can (and often does) involve fun and enjoyment.
2. An alternative term that represents the concept of: “repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time” that can replace “grind”.

Because that’s actually what everyone’s talking about. Trying to obscure the meaning of “grind” in this context won’t change that. If you want to continue to insist that “grind” can be enjoyed… then, under your view, no one’s actually talking about “grind”. They’re talking about: “repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.” So, if you don’t want to use “grind” for that, you’re going to have to come up with something else that fits for you.

I questioned the “by definition”-part. Because the definition of “grind” doesn’t actually say it’s unenjoyable. What everyone is talking about is repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun for that person whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time. But if you look at the actual definition….killing the same mob over and over again would be grind. It’s “labourious”(in a way, because I refuse to see labour in games). It’s definitely monotonous, likely mechanical or without inspiration. BUT you’d see people saying they enjoy grinding which would contradict your unejoyable definition of the word. I also find Chris’s words rather…wrong. Because, based on his definition, the entire game is both only grind and no grind at all. Because “unenjoyable” is very personal. If I were to take his definition as the correct one, I’d ask…why is there WvWvW and sPvP in the game? For me, both of those are perfect matches to his words. At the same time, fotm, getting a legendary etc won’t be a grind, because I enjoy those. As a result, “we don’t want you to grind” would be a lie in every possible aspect, because every activity in the game can be identified as grind by somebody.

PS: Hope you get what I mean, cause it’s like 11pm here and I’m half-asleep. I can try again tomorrow in case it’s still not clear.

Hawkian.6580:

I leave you with this thought (I’m sure you’ve heard it before, and I don’t mean to be redundant): if you feel the game right now is boring, grindy, and stale, but look forward to a day when it is not those things to you any longer- there’s nothing to be lost by simply taking a break until you hear about significant changes and then coming back and giving it a try. I don’t mean this at all in the “if you don’t like it, then don’t play it” sense- I mean that obviously you want to like it, but there’s no sense in having to strain to do so, and you’re not struggling to get your money’s worth at this point. You might like the direction things go one day, and you might not.

That pretty much sums it up for a lot of people that I know that used to play GW2. They have already become bored to tears with the content, drop rates and more. I have been told, If it gets better let me know. I worded that last part far more cleanly than some of the words my friends used. Some of those words described ending a physical position that I am sure is all but impossible to obtain and the people at ArenaNet…

Hawkian.6580:

Freyvin, I can honestly sympathize with the game not living up to your expectations. By nature it couldn’t do so for everyone, but you have absolutely every right to be disappointed. It lived up to mine, but we were merely looking for different things in the end and that’s more than fine; in fact it’s a necessary component of the process of delivering an MMO that some people will be satisfied and others won’t.

I want to stress that I didn’t reply to you in defense of any particular qualities of the game. Your question about “when forum posters would not be the minority” stood out to me just because of the objective facts of the case; that, right or wrong, they always will be.

It’s also important to draw a distinction between “success” and your personal enjoyment. By all reasonable metrics- critical and commercial- the game has already been a fairly resounding success. Of course we will see how things go from here, but watch the horizon for numerous Game of the Year nominations about to be announced in the next few days and weeks.

Where it has not succeeded is in being enjoyable to you and your friends (past a certain point- one imagines that during your 670 hours across three 80s, you enjoyed some portion of the experience). And that is regrettable. I’m just saying that perspective is a very important thing.

I leave you with this thought (I’m sure you’ve heard it before, and I don’t mean to be redundant): if you feel the game right now is boring, grindy, and stale, but look forward to a day when it is not those things to you any longer- there’s nothing to be lost by simply taking a break until you hear about significant changes and then coming back and giving it a try. I don’t mean this at all in the “if you don’t like it, then don’t play it” sense- I mean that obviously you want to like it, but there’s no sense in having to strain to do so, and you’re not struggling to get your money’s worth at this point. You might like the direction things go one day, and you might not.

A perfectly good and thought out response Hawkian and one that I concur with. Obviously I liked the game on some level to invest those hours in it, but now I log in and I’m kinda wondering “why”. You summed it up great and for someone who writes books on the side you’d think I wouldn’t get so emotional over such a first world problem as having a game developer’s promises in some dev diary fire me up, but for whatever reason (probably the creative ego to think I could do better) it does.

@TWMagimay:

I’ve already stated multiple times in this thread and elsewhere that grind is, in large part, subjective. Everyone has a different threshold. What’s assumed is that everyone does have a threshold. When that threshold is exceeded, the gameplay is no longer fun for the person. It becomes a grind.

As I’ve pointed out before, if I decide to play multiple games of chess, am I then grinding chess? No, that’s just silly. Ergo, repetition is obviously not the sole defining attribute of “grind”. So, what else defines it? Lack of fun, lack of enjoyment. If that isn’t at the core of it, this entire dialogue becomes meaningless.

Example: I have a low tolerance threshold for farming. For me, it becomes old, fast. It becomes a grind. At which point, I stop doing it. Others enjoy farming much more. It doesn’t become a grind for them nearly as quickly. However, most will get bored with it eventually. If, at that point, they continue with the activity only for the rewards involved, it becomes a grind.

The question is, does the model of GW2 lead to grind for a large portion, if not the majority, of its players? I’m inclined to say it does. Why? Because I’m going to end up hitting that grind wall, and I’m a gaming omnivore, which means I’m easier to keep entertained than many… maybe most (putting me at mid-range on the spectrum would be a conservative estimate). Thus, if I’m going to hit it, it follows to me that a huge portion of the audience is going to hit it before I do. The replay value of the content, as it currently stands, is not sufficient to ward off grind for a sizeable portion, if not the bulk, of the player base.

If you in particular are able to endlessly replay the current content and never get bored with it, great. But I’d say you are an extreme outlier.

You shouldn’t be spending your entire time on a game man. Getting addicted and doing nothing else ruins careers, breaks relationships and families and makes people fail at life. Perhaps this game is trying to teach people to play games more casually and limit themselves to how much they play, because then they can enjoy their real lives more – noticed that blazing through content as quickly as you can, while fun at the time, leaves little to accomplish later on. So set your goals with a longer timespan and try not to finish everything too quickly. We only got one life, try not to waste it all on your computer

In my opinion, the ANet statements about grinding should read “you dont have to grind, but it is easier to get some things if you do”. It is true, you dont have to grind to play the game, you can do many things in the game without grinding.

BUT, if you want your gear faster, whether it be Ascended, Legendary, Dungeon, or Exotic, grinding helps to make it happen alot quicker.

Hawkian.6580:

I leave you with this thought (I’m sure you’ve heard it before, and I don’t mean to be redundant): if you feel the game right now is boring, grindy, and stale, but look forward to a day when it is not those things to you any longer- there’s nothing to be lost by simply taking a break until you hear about significant changes and then coming back and giving it a try.

There’s a great deal to be lost, though.

This MMO in particular is designed around the continued presence of an active population. People taking breaks will lead to other people taking breaks. For example, if I drop off, a half dozen others will likely follow, and then others will follow that half dozen, and so on.

And, frankly, if my break is long enough, I won’t be coming back. I’m an MMO player. As such, I’m looking for a persistent world, an ongoing experience, a virtual Third Place. Long breaks means GW2 is failing to deliver on that. So I’ll find something else that does. I only have room for one MMO.

Every person that takes a break is a loss to the community. It diminishes the game experience. Ultimately, it’s a loss for the franchise.

It’s not enough for this title to be successful. Its publisher has already pulled the plug on one moderately successful and profitable MMO. This title must go beyond success and meet expectations. Given how much has been put into the game, the state of the publisher’s stock in recent months is not a positive indicator that the marks have been hit.

I would like this game to continue to thrive. Sure, at some point soon, if things don’t shift, I’ll just wipe my hands of it and walk away. I’ve already gotten my money’s worth, so it won’t be any loss to me. But it’ll definitely be a loss.

Crimsonified.6418:

Perhaps this game is trying to teach people to play games more casually and limit themselves to how much they play, because then they can enjoy their real lives more – noticed that blazing through content as quickly as you can, while fun at the time, leaves little to accomplish later on. So set your goals with a longer timespan and try not to finish everything too quickly. We only got one life, try not to waste it all on your computer

You’re talking to a segment of the community to which I don’t belong. Yet the issues cited in this thread are still issues for me.

While I’m a serious player, my approach to play is decidedly casual. I won’t grind. I participate in most of what’s provided. I’m in no rush to get anything. I play alts and I roleplay.

Despite all this, and despite having put many hours into the game, many high-end items look unobtainable to me without engaging in grind.

For example, I really doubt I’m going to be able to tolerate 20+ runs of a single dungeon, without spacing them out over the course of several months. And there just isn’t several months of content left to keep my engaged during that time.

RE: Gem Shop

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If you want me to buy things from the shop, they need to be either pretty, or things I want to do. If I want to do them, there better be a reward for it that I feel is worth monetary value. Currently, we don’t have any of that. We have Manly things in the shop, and none of the Pets are especially rewarding or pretty.

I really hope that the next year actually opens up the accessory market for the TP. I really would like to see vanity items that makes me want to spend Gems, instead of rationalizing my way out of spending more money.

Hydrophidian.4319:

@TWMagimay:

I’ve already stated multiple times in this thread and elsewhere that grind is, in large part, subjective. Everyone has a different threshold. What’s assumed is that everyone does have a threshold. When that threshold is exceeded, the gameplay is no longer fun for the person. It becomes a grind.

As I’ve pointed out before, if I decide to play multiple games of chess, am I then grinding chess? No, that’s just silly. Ergo, repetition is obviously not the sole defining attribute of “grind”. So, what else defines it? Lack of fun, lack of enjoyment. If that isn’t at the core of it, this entire dialogue becomes meaningless.

Example: I have a low tolerance threshold for farming. For me, it becomes old, fast. It becomes a grind. At which point, I stop doing it. Others enjoy farming much more. It doesn’t become a grind for them nearly as quickly. However, most will get bored with it eventually. If, at that point, they continue with the activity only for the rewards involved, it becomes a grind.

The question is, does the model of GW2 lead to grind for a large portion, if not the majority, of its players?

With your definition of grind, yeah, ofc it does. As I said, you put ’enjoyment" in there and everything in the game becomes a grind. Actually, everything in every game can be described as “grind”. I can think of a good amount of people who think:
-wvwvw
-spvp
-resource gathering
-karma farming
-dungeons
-ow mat farming
-even discovering vistas and poi(especially in wvwvw)
is repetitive, boring and not enjoyable thus grind.

But my point was that grind is not "unenjoyable"_by definition_ and the only definition provided that suggests so is of a person, not from a dictionary. It doesn’t matter who that person is(especially since he’s a game developer and I doubt he ever wrote a dictionary in his life or has a degree in English philology ), it’s his personal understanding of the word(likely because he, just like you, has a low threshold for farming)

I’m inclined to say it does. Why? Because I’m going to end up hitting that grind wall, and I’m a gaming omnivore, which means I’m easier to keep entertained than many… maybe most (putting me at mid-range on the spectrum would be a conservative estimate). Thus, if I’m going to hit it, it follows to me that a huge portion of the audience is going to hit it before I do. The replay value of the content, as it currently stands, is not sufficient to ward off grind for a sizeable portion, if not the bulk, of the player base.

If you in particular are able to endlessly replay the current content and never get bored with it, great. But I’d say you are an extreme outlier.

If I weren’t able to replay the same content over and over again, I wouldn’t be playing MMOs. I’d be playing a new SP game every day. And that’s the whole problem. You assume your threshold is average and a lot of people would hit the wall before you do. How do you know that? Yeah, you don’t. And it still only works for 1 aspect of the game. The aspect you dislike. What about everything else? How’s your wall there?

And since “enjoyment” is smth we basically make for ourselves… You know by now what you enjoy, I hope. So, why would you do smth that you know you don’t? GW2 has an extremely casual and free gameplay. If you feel forced to “grind”, that’s because you force yourself to do it, not because you actually have to do it. And then you go ahead and blame it on the game. Your own choices are not the fault of a dev team….

I see so the REAL problem just lies with the players because we are not enjoying ourselves. This is true, this is true.

Think I’ll just go pound 8 million nails into a wall for fun now, I just gotta remember to tell myself that this will be fun and I can make it so!

My definition of in-game grind is doing something that I find uninteresting or boring, but I’m doing it because I want something, whether that be experience, loot, achievements or what-have-you, and that getting to that goal takes longer than I can stand doing the activity. For instance, killing mobs for a particular drop (like killing antelopes in WoW to get three horns, and despite each of them having two, I never get one as a drop). In GW2 that can be farming in Orr, going for the nodes but getting tired of being the ball in a game of Risen Ping-Pong, or killing 250 Young Karka and getting 1 Powerful Blood.

You can’t get anymore subjective than that. >.>

skotie.2614:

I see so the REAL problem just lies with the players because we are not enjoying ourselves. This is true, this is true.

Think I’ll just go pound 8 million nails into a wall for fun now, I just gotta remember to tell myself that this will be fun and I can make it so!

Why wouldn;t it be fun? You can start by nailing in the shape of a flower. Then turn it into a butterfly. Then turn it into a house. A mountain. Etc. Create art with it and it will be fun. Even if it isn’t…how about this wacky idea: don’t do it. Weird, right? Unless smb happens to be holding a gun to your head? Maybe the same person who halds the same gun to the same head when you play GW2? Oh, wait, that’s ridiculous…

TWMagimay.9057:

skotie.2614:

I see so the REAL problem just lies with the players because we are not enjoying ourselves. This is true, this is true.

Think I’ll just go pound 8 million nails into a wall for fun now, I just gotta remember to tell myself that this will be fun and I can make it so!

Why wouldn;t it be fun? You can start by nailing in the shape of a flower. Then turn it into a butterfly. Then turn it into a house. A mountain. Etc. Create art with it and it will be fun. Even if it isn’t…how about this wacky idea: don’t do it. Weird, right? Unless smb happens to be holding a gun to your head? Maybe the same person who halds the same gun to the same head when you play GW2? Oh, wait, that’s ridiculous…

“HEY! come join our butterfly creation simulator! only 55-60 bucks to join”

hands you a hammer and 8 million nails and one board, You’re told that you can only create one shape per board also, could not create anything but a butterfly, house or mountain and it would be extra to get a fresh wooden board

“What do you mean you didn’t sign up to do some bad carpentry? oh well if you don’t like it then don’t do it, see ya’s”

Do you have ANY idea how preposterous your interpretation sounds?

“And no one’s holding a gun to your head” is a baseless argument which adds NOTHING to this discussion

TWMagimay.9057:

Hellkaiser.6025:

“HEY! come join our butterfly creation simulator! only 55-60 bucks to join”

hands you a hammer and 8 million nails and one board, You’re told that you can only create one shape per board also, could not create anything but a butterfly, house or mountain and it would be extra to get a fresh wooden board

“What do you mean you didn’t sign up to do some bad carpentry? oh well if you don’t like it then don’t do it, see ya’s”

Do you have ANY idea how preposterous your interpretation sounds?

Woah, you are really cheap! 8mil nails only for $60? That’s like over 1000 times under the market price!

But why would you say that? Why only one shape per board? I guess we are not talking about GW2 any more, because my game for $60 allows me to do everything I want to O.O Unleess you are speculating about future expansions, but that’d still be stupid, because an expansion still has more than 1 element….

And what exactly did you sign up for?

No, I don’t. Do you have any idea how whiny and ridiculous you sound? Boohoo, bad GW2 devs, holding a gun to your head to force you into doing stuff you don’t want to. Poor you, for getting such special attention like a personal dev sitting net to you all the time….

If you feel that your game truly is living up to it’s expectations then fine, your expectations are your own, but claiming “hey we can do anything in this game” is a baseless claim, and it was already pointed out that even a month before release the “out of the box ideas” of how to keep yourself amused in GW2 were being touted, which was a sign that the game was lacking inherently.

Oh, and an appeal to ridicule to cap it all off! classy. when you’re done trolling and claiming that somehow the fact that the game devs aren’t holding us hostage to play their game and we can leave at any time, has any bearing on the games quality,

Then by all means let’s discuss this :P

ps. It was pretty obvious, that the 8million nails was simply to draw parallel with the analogy you tried to make a straw man out of, it seems it’s the only way you can argue however, so yea… not surprising

I also love the idea that everyone should just “leave the game if they don’t like it” because obviously that’s the solution, and people use this argument knowing full well that’s exactly what happened with SWTOR, SGU etc it’s like they have no perspective :S

Indeed, the manifesto is garbage, not opinion, fact. The game is nothing more than a grinding farming hell due to dev mechanics.

I state over and over i will not farm and then while traveling around the maps to maintain my sanity i find myself absent mindedly bombing groups and i stop shake my head, curse the appropriate people and move on.

In my opinion….the devs working on content and grind mechanics need to get with the art department and the sound department and take lessons, as both of those groups have done a stellar job.

On a side note, I was at a safeway shopping and a person used the number 250 in a conversation..i alsmost punched them in the face i twitched so bad.

I don’t recall ever grinding in this game. I do dungeons consistently, but I have options and its for skins. If I don’t like a dungeon, I simply won’t do it.

There is some grind in this game, if you choose to do it. But by the time you should actually start saving for a legendary, you shouldn’t have to grind unless you blow all your gold or blow all your mats.

This game lacks grind. You just choose to do it. If you want, they can make it like WoW so you have to grind even in PvP if you want to have any form of fun.

Hellkaiser.6025:

If you feel that your game truly is living up to it’s expectations then fine, your expectations are your own, but claiming “hey we can do anything in this game” is a baseless claim, and it was already pointed out that even a month before release the “out of the box ideas” of how to keep yourself amused in GW2 were being touted, which was a sign that the game was lacking inherently.

Oh, and an appeal to ridicule to cap it all off! classy. when you’re done trolling and claiming that somehow the fact that the game devs aren’t holding us hostage to play their game and we can leave at any time, has any bearing on the games quality,

Then by all means let’s discuss this :P

ps. It was pretty obvious, that the 8million nails was simply to draw parallel with the analogy you tried to make a straw man out of, it seems it’s the only way you can argue however, so yea… not surprising

I also love the idea that everyone should just “leave the game if they don’t like it” because obviously that’s the solution, and people use this argument knowing full well that’s exactly what happened with SWTOR, SGU etc it’s like they have no perspective :S

Well, yeah, if there is absolutely nothing you enjoy in a game, you should actually leave it. It’s not like they will rewrite the entire thing, just for your personal pleasure especially when there are thousands(even 100 thousands) of people who do find enjoyment in their game. It might sound strange to you, but I have intention of convincing smb to play a game they dislike or trying to force them into staying just because more players = better future. I firmly believe that playing a game should be fun above all.

Yes, your “nail” example. I made the point that you can create your own enjoyment if you have a bit of imagination and you, again, decided that there has to be smb telling you what to do. How did that happen? How did it go from nailing down 8mil nails to having a master ordering you around? Was it because you suddenly realised that your example could easily be tweaked against you so you decided to give a foolproof one that accidentally turned out as implying that you are forced into doing it? Which, obviously, you are not. Free will and all….

PS: Just because I find you whiny doesn’t mean I’m trolling. It just means that I read your posts and hear a distinct “waaaa, waaaaa” in the background….

has any of you whatsoever played a grindfest game at all. from the above statements i dont seem to think any one of you has. to call this game a grindfest where it literly takes a day to gear out a lvl 80 toon full exotics is like calling aa grilled cheese sandwich gourmet cooking. quit complaining about stupid stuff like this and get out there and fight in wvw so you can complain about that insted :P

Was about to make a thread “Grind Wars 2” but i am too busy..
Love this game.. But i cant enjoy it the way i want it to..
Eg.. Exploring.. Did all jumping puzzle.. Did all outdoor boss.. Getting dungeon master title.. Get exploring achievement..
Rewards? Zero..

While people “playing TP” gets all the gold..
People farming crabs for gold.. Grind? check
People farming 1st boss of arah3 get gold.. Grind? check
People who bought gold got the legendary..

Also
Need gear? Do dungeon 100×..
Need ascended ring/back? Do FOTM 100x
Need karma? Do plinx 1000x
Grind Wars 2..
You can do whatever you like in this game.. But to get gold.. You must grind..

someones exagerating a wee bit ijs. for the most part dungeon gear is uneeded its a skin whoopdy do. secondly F gear does not give enough of a stat boost to even be worth getting. other then for pve content

Linkent.7416:

Was about to make a thread “Grind Wars 2” but i am too busy..
Love this game.. But i cant enjoy it the way i want it to..
Eg.. Exploring.. Did all jumping puzzle.. Did all outdoor boss.. Getting dungeon master title.. Get exploring achievement..
Rewards? Zero..

While people “playing TP” gets all the gold..
People farming crabs for gold.. Grind? check
People farming 1st boss of arah3 get gold.. Grind? check
People who bought gold got the legendary..

Also
Need gear? Do dungeon 100×..
Need ascended ring/back? Do FOTM 100x
Need karma? Do plinx 1000x
Grind Wars 2..
You can do whatever you like in this game.. But to get gold.. You must grind..

Let’s see…
I’d say the reward for that would be the fun you had doing it. But that’s just me, being all about fun in games and stuff(I know it’s not a very popular position on these forums…)
Getting 5-10g/day…check
Playing the TP? No
Farming crab? Ammm, no…what are those?
Farming first boss of arah3? Is that, like, an exploit or smth? Been to arah once only, with a party, didn’t like it much, never went again.
Buying gold? That’s just silly….

Need gear? No, I have 2 full sets of exotics(armour, jewellery, staves) and a set of exotic daggers for kicks. Farming dungeons for it? I have like…10 total dungeon runs(not counting fotm), so…no, not really….
Need ascended ring/back? No, I don’t want to farm fotm 20+, thus I don’t need to farm fotm 100 times for ring and back.
Need karma? Yeah. Get like ~10k a day(20k when I misclick and end up in WvWvW). While you are here, can you tell me what “plinx” is?

Grind comes when you set your goals before your gameplay. If you look at what you like doing and based your expectations on that, you’ll “grind” a whole lot less.

TWMagimay.9057:

(..)
Grind comes when you set your goals before your gameplay. If you look at what you like doing and based your expectations on that, you’ll “grind” a whole lot less.

I would like to add, " as soon as possible".

I set goals, but I don’t grind. I’ll get there eventually

TWMagimay.9057 is exactly on point here ya all need to tighten up and learn from his example

TWMagimay.9057:

But my point was that grind is not "unenjoyable"_by definition_ and the only definition provided that suggests so is of a person, not from a dictionary. It doesn’t matter who that person is(especially since he’s a game developer and I doubt he ever wrote a dictionary in his life or has a degree in English philology ), it’s his personal understanding of the word(likely because he, just like you, has a low threshold for farming)

I’m sorry, but I consider this position you keep restating to be ridiculous. And it is, again, outside the scope of this thread.

It’s already been explained quite thoroughly how the absence of fun and enjoyment is a defining attribute of “grind”. If it weren’t, the whole dialogue about it wouldn’t make any sense.

You’ve been asked to cite support for your… shall we say… novel interpretation of the word… and you haven’t. You’ve been asked to supply an alternative term to represent the associated concept… and you haven’t. So… what are you trying to accomplish here? Because it doesn’t appear to be actual communication.

If I weren’t able to replay the same content over and over again, I wouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Yah, that’s not what I said. What I said was: “If you in particular are able to endlessly replay the current content and never get bored with it, great.” Tedium, boredom… grind... is central to the issue. If you can’t acknowledge that, you’re having a different conversation from the one going on in this thread.

You assume your threshold is average and a lot of people would hit the wall before you do. How do you know that? Yeah, you don’t.

Didn’t say I did. I’ve reasoned this was the case and provided my reasoning. Multiple times, in fact. Including in the very post you’re responding to. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I doubt it.

And it still only works for 1 aspect of the game. The aspect you dislike. What about everything else? How’s your wall there?

Aspect? Dislike? Are you actually reading my posts?

And since “enjoyment” is smth we basically make for ourselves… You know by now what you enjoy, I hope. So, why would you do smth that you know you don’t?

I don’t. Are you actually reading my posts?

If you feel forced to “grind”, that’s because you force yourself to do it, not because you actually have to do it.

I never said I felt “forced to grind”. In fact, I’ve stated multiple times that I do not grind. And because I do not grind, there are many items in the game I will not be obtaining. Are you actually reading my posts?

And then you go ahead and blame it on the game. Your own choices are not the fault of a dev team….

What the hell are you talking about?

Look, you’ve now gone completely off the rails. If you want to have a discussion with me, you’re going to have to at least muster the courtesy to read and address what I’ve actually posted. Trying to put words into my mouth and just making stuff up isn’t gonna work.

Why on earth is the definition of grind even being argued?

I have not once heard it used as positive, or even neutral description about an activity.

The word definitely has negative connotations, and if someone asked me to describe FotM in one word, “grind” would be it.