Guild Wars 2

nofo.8469:

Why on earth is the definition of grind even being argued?

I am Jack’s helpless shrug.

I have not once heard it used as positive, or even neutral description about an activity.

Even if you had, it’s clearly a negative in this context. As established by…

“We don’t make grindy games.”

…among other statements.

nofo.8469:

Why on earth is the definition of grind even being argued?

I have not once heard it used as positive, or even neutral description about an activity.

The word definitely has negative connotations, and if someone asked me to describe FotM in one word, “grind” would be it.

If someone lacks any real arguments in a discussion, they sometimes try to switch it around by trying to attack base definitions and claiming that discussion is about something different than it actually is. It doesn’t actually accomplish anything (besides possibly derailing the thread), but some people still try to do it.

I have to wonder if the people who put the game together and made all those encouraging statements are even still working at Anet.

Hydrophidian.4319:

You’ve been asked to cite support for your… shall we say… novel interpretation of the word… and you haven’t.

Because you already did it for me. Look at the definitions your buddy here gave. The first 2 are precisely my “novel interpretation of the word”. Read them. A few times if needed, until you understand what those words mean. Then come back and we can continue.

Seraki.2753:

I have to wonder if the people who put the game together and made all those encouraging statements are even still working at Anet.

Yup.

There’s a lot at play here. And more that might be at play here.

Right out of the gate: this is a new MMO. It had a pretty impressive launch, but every MMO I’ve ever seen goes through an early adjustment process. This one’s no different. The developers are trying to balance various and sundry concerns, such as, for example, grind vs. trivializing achievements. It’s not an easy task.

There are almost certainly other agencies involved, pressuring for results. How much influence these agencies have, we don’t know. But one of them owns the studio, so… presumably a lot.

The developers don’t operate with a hive mind. They all want to get to a point of equilibrium, but they may have very different ideas about the best way to reach it. Before a course is even set, there’s going to be at least some debate about it. Lots of “brainstorming” meetings and that kinda thing. Maybe proposal submissions. It might be a simple process or an involved one, but there’s very likely some sort of process at work (this would account, at least in part, for the perceived silence, because they can’t really talk to us until they’re all on the same page).

There’s good reason to feel uncertain, skeptical, or even pessimistic. But, really, it could go any number of ways from here.

Now, people keep complaining that a grind EXISTS in this game, here are my thoughts:

First, I would say no REQUIRED grind, you don’t need uber gear for pvp since you have gear provided for you and wvw has hundreds of people and siege weapons, gear matters VERY little then. in pve once you hit exotics you are in pretty good shape, any more work woulds just be a little extra push you don’t REALLY need, though it could be a little convenient to have that small boost.

YOU GRIND BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TO. Once you hit all exotics (plenty of vendors for that, like in Orr.) you are pretty much good to go Even legendaries don’t make that HUGE of a difference, noticeable, but not necessary.
they added quite a few things to make the game fun, World bosses, interesting events, dungeons (they are fun if you don’t make them a chore by your own choice and mindset) with alternate paths and stories, KEG BRAWL and in the upcoming update and event “wintersday” they will likely add ALOT more, maybe Charr Racing in the black citadel, one charr you can find around the tanks just inside the front gate of the black citadel was talking about that. I think that could be a fun mini-game.

Second:
Stop complaining about the EXISTANCE of the grind for the extra stuff and think about this:
Is there a SINGLE mmo that has less of a grind then this game?
(I’ll wait for an answer, let me know if one exists.)
In my personal experience, not sure how YOURS is but I find that I have been flying up levels, getting really powerful gear just by chance and if I don’t feel like working on my craftsmanship skills I’ll just buy a new item from the Trading post. Not bad at all.

I feel this is the best mmo I ever played, first one I ever felt it was worth my time to reach the level cap and keep playing! It eliminates everything I find annoying about mmos.

Enjoy the game, don’t make it a chore for yourself, if you can function and do serious damage to mobs and other players in the different modes and if you like Keg brawl, world bosses, events and other features in the game, stop complaining, maybe suggest a new approach or fixes but don’t say “the game is dead” or “they are destroying the game” or things along those lines, its only been out for a few months and they are bringing new features and fixes all the time and they listen to feedback.

TWMagimay.9057:

Then come back and we can continue.

Uh… no. I have no desire to continue. That should’ve been clear in my last response. I can’t fathom what you’re trying to say or accomplish, and you don’t appear to actually be reading my posts.

So… if it’s all the same to you, I’ll take a pass on any further interchange. Thanks.

Alastar.2863:

Is there a SINGLE mmo that has less of a grind then this game?

Is there a SINGLE Western superpower that has more poverty than Africa, guess we should stop fighting povety in advanced countries cus really – its not THAT bad compared to others.

I see the argument that “its not as bad as other MMOs” to be a terrible point to try and make.

The difference I think people want to see, is that “grind” is not synomous with “farm”. People enjoyed farming plinx until the nerf, for example. The question really becomes, what makes something a farm rather than a grind?

- Well a sense of reward equal to the effort put in for one (how about getting at least 1 T6 mat when finishing a jumping puzzle? Especially for the first time)
– Varied challenge, in this game’s context I would say more farmable DE’s that have EQUAL efficiency (essentially we need more copies of Plinx around Tyria, that way people can move around the world keeping things fresh)
- Achievements/goals that give appropriate rewards when completed, (how about daily dungeon challenges that change.. well every day. A random 200% dungeon token bonus from the first run of a randoly chosen dungeon each day – to get people to do different dungeons)

It doesn’t take much to encourage varied farm, monthly achievement goes a small way to encouraging this.. but this month it is encouraging people in Fractals.. which is the ONE place people want a reason to NOT run. What gets me is that they had a really good system in GW1 that encourages people to do random missions around the whole world, and they havent put it in gw2. GW1 did a lot of things right that GW2 just hasn’t implemented, I’d hope they learn from their success not just their mistakes.

My bad, sorry for complaining I was under the impression I paid 60 bucks for a fun and entertaining video game. Seems it was only a mental endurance challenge.

Right now, for me that quote looks like the biggest fraud i’ve seen in any mmo advertisement. I dare any of u to find 100 charged lodestones without grinding more pathetically then a bot. Hell..u don’t even have spots to farm them anymore because nobody even does the orr events that unlock mobs for lodestones.

I was gonna comment in some depth about this but the more I looked at and read this thread the more I came to realize there’s a semantic disagreement at the discussion’s most fundamental level. Until there’s a universally agreed upon meaning of these terms “farm” and “grind” it’s just banging your head against a wall verbally.

I guess this much can be agreed upon though at least – grinding and farming are inherent to the genre. For example, it doesn’t matter how you got your “Exotic set” – karma, dungeon tokens, honor badges, gold, or maybe an hour of earnings from last week’s paycheck, the one thing that didn’t occur is that it materialized in your bags while you stood still making wishes.

One could go on to insinuate that of the “farming” and “grinding” one’s done in this game for their “B.I.S Set” it’s a drop in the bucket to what many MMOs require for a B.I.S set up. Such that if one is casting a negative judgement on this game for it’s inherent “farming and grinding” then MMOs in general just may not be their bag.

cimon.5798:

has any of you whatsoever played a grindfest game at all. from the above statements i dont seem to think any one of you has. to call this game a grindfest where it literly takes a day to gear out a lvl 80 toon full exotics is like calling aa grilled cheese sandwich gourmet cooking. quit complaining about stupid stuff like this and get out there and fight in wvw so you can complain about that insted :P

Oooh, I’ve played grind before.

- EverQuest
- Ultima Online
- Minecraft
- UFO: Enemy Unknown
- Pool of Radiance
- Final Fantasy
- Dragon Quest
- Monster Hunter
- Master of Orion 2
- Castlevania 2: Simon’s Quest
- Realm of the Mad God
- Pokemon
- Nethack (With a side of “RNG screws you hard to the wall and keeps tightening”, thank you very much)

Not all of these are bad games solely because there’s an element of grind involved. (In fact, if a couple of them are bad, it’s for other reasons.)

Imo grind / farm is everywhere, but I feel your pain. In some games I really didn’t feel like grinding. PvP is grinding everywhere too but every man you meet is fighting a little bit different, so you dont mind that much or at all (if you like PvP).

Grind for me – legendary weapons, 1400+ tokens from dungeon on whole armor, fractals and I’m sure we could find more, like, orrichalcum ore etc. Legendary weapons I get, its a special item you are not supposed to get so easy, I get it, thats fine. 1400+ tokens from dungeon, well, ok, I like dungeons here so even if its grind I can take it even tho I wouldn’t mind it done another way, but not sure which, its always drop from boss or grind some kind of a token. And now, fractals? Fracatals are one thing which kinda annoy me. Why?

Fractals mean one thing, they NEED to make item progression in GW 2. NEED, yes, I think they NEED to do it, because what is new player going to do in two years without item progression? He is going to LA and ask LFG Fractals lvl 1, who the hell will be doing lvl 1? Who would want to go lvl 1 when almost everyone will be at least lvl 20+? Or even more. I mean, yes, there will be new players and they can play that, but.. will that work? Maybe, I don’t believe that. And item progression its just somethin which is not too Guild Warsy if you know what I mean.

I love GW 2, really I do like this game its features everything, but I’m starting to feel a bit like when I finished 80 in WoW – you need to go to farm / grind here for a while (couple weeks / months) to get somethin so you can go farm something else elsewhere. I really hate that system to be honest.

It was in L2 also but I didn’t mind grind there. I know, L2 I said? Where you had to grind to max level and grind to get recepies for stuff etc.? Yea, because it was drop based and just didn’t feel there like grinding / farming. Here you get a token, which is USELESS unless you have a lot of em so you can buy sh.. I mean.. stuff. I’m not sayin to you change the game radicaly and make it drop based, NO. But if there is going to be item progression, I just hope it wont all be get tokens from CoF, done, go Fractals and get tokens there, done, go to farm for legendary weapon, done, go to farm for new thingy we just added this patch, done, now this patch thingy, done etc.

I know, maybe I’m starting to realize this is not a game for me, when I’ll be 100% sure of that, I’ll leave, dont worry I won’t come cry here.

I could do everything in GW 1 with my Ritualist even tho I didn’t have any super cool armor, just a mummy one. Now I kinda have to because yes, there are already ppl who want only 80s to fractals (yes I’m 80 but I don’t like that attitude did these ppl forget how it is to be newb in a game? My god.. grow up and lets help ppl and welcome them here like Lotro community does it), other groups want only full exotic to some dungeons (especialy Arah, but I get that one) and it could get even worse with time. I just hope you won’t make this a game where people can’t play together because they need to farm equipment after equipment first. Nuff said.

Linkent.7416:

Eg.. Exploring.. Did all jumping puzzle.. Did all outdoor boss.. Getting dungeon master title.. Get exploring achievement..
Rewards? Zero..

Okay. Now let’s start from here. Jumping puzzles:
Complete them all on your level 20 alt – most of the time it will drop a silver doubloon, if you sell it it’s instant 40 silver. Complete them on your level 80 and this chance is rarer, but it sometimes gives you an exotic. Exotics once sold tend to earn you 1 to 5 gold.

Got the dungeon master? So completed all dungeons trough the story run? Even in AC with the satchels that they drop and while killing enemies I earn about 1G a run. Then there’s items that enemies drop. Exploration is far more profitable, but even in story mode you can get greens to sell. So 1G while not a lot is still money. Good money that you can save.

“Get exploring achievement” so full exploration? Now how did you not earn money there is beyond me. On the character I was doing full explore on at level 60 I already had 9G, because I was exploring 40-50 zones at the time and every zone is 1. Good gear 2. 20 silver. Now higher level zones – 70-80, 70-75, 75-80, 80+ always drop exotics upon completion. Not to mention when trying to slowly move trough Orr I amassed a lot of Tier 6 mats. Planning to use those, but if I wasn’t – money right there. Gathering while doing full explore! You know how much Orri you can amass if you did every node? So don’t lie there. You should have amassed plenty of cash.

Linkent.7416:

While people “playing TP” gets all the gold..
People farming crabs for gold.. Grind? check
People farming 1st boss of arah3 get gold.. Grind? check
People who bought gold got the legendary..

Now here. Trading Post manipulation takes a lot of time for little rewards. When they pull out low level mats like linen only to re-sell you know how much profit they expect? A few copper per piece. In total it adds up to a few silver.

Try farming yourself. Not profitable at all. Best drop rate for powerful blood – snow trolls. Rate of drops? About 4 powerful blood per hour and you will feel bored as hell. Dungeon runs and WvW feel so much better when inneed of money.

You know how much gold on top of karma and skill points do you need for a legendary? If those people “bought” one, then they spent about 1000 dollars in conversion system.

Linkent.7416:

Need gear? Do dungeon 100×..
Need ascended ring/back? Do FOTM 100x
Need karma? Do plinx 1000x
Grind Wars 2..
You can do whatever you like in this game.. But to get gold.. You must grind..

How about gear yourself up with karma (you should have enough when you hit level 80) or gold (especially if you did full explore, you should have enough right there) or craft it yourself? Exotics are not that hard to get. Now about the realistic amounts of dungeon running – 4 runs = 1 weapon or armor piece. So 8 * 4 = 32 runs for a full gear set.

No reason to get ascendeds before they introduce it in the rest of the world. The only place where you need them right now is fractals. And complaining that you need to run fractals to run fractals is silly.

Need karma? Run a dungeon, or do a daily. Dailies are really easy to achieve and give you 4000 karma each, dungeon runs drop drops of karma with 400 karma each. A run you can get 3 – 4drops or more if you’re lucky.

Grind is boring and brainless.

Challenging content is fun and achieving.

Giving items for people that can drag themselves through the same old instance (wich is easy regardless how you look, and yes, agony doesnt make it impossible) is boring.

Rewarding players that actually put up a fight, got up together, adjusted theirs skills to an encounter and then actually overcame it is good.

Right now, GW2 became an extremly grinding game, with unrealistic requirements for those ascended gear that requires only time sink, not skill.

Loved FotM, the snow storm one always blows my mind on how awsome it is. But I’d rather see it far harder, with more complicated mechanics with a reward at an idea than all this grind.

Easy fix?
Make it so that brainless/incompetent players can get it if they grind the easy mode till no end and give a hardcore option (a.k.a. explorer) that requires a LOT of teamwork/coordination/skill sets to actually do it and reward those that do it (you know, loot table).

Mirta.5029:

No reason to get ascendeds before they introduce it in the rest of the world. The only place where you need them right now is fractals. And complaining that you need to run fractals to run fractals is silly.

I cannot agree with this part of your post. The work needed to get these items takes a long time and is very boring. And you do need to run fractals to run the higher level of fractals because of the infusion, which isn’t exactly the same but close enough.

But back to the first point. Once they introduce the rest of the gear, you will not want to have to do all this work to get these items because you will need your time to get the new items. It will then be too late to start then. That’s the whole point of the phased introduction. Even though I am sure they will tone down the requirements for this gear, I doubt it will become a total turnaround. It will still take some effort at that point.

So especially casual players will feel they need to get it now before the next items come out, because then it will be double the work. Since no one knows when this will happen people will feel the pressure to get it done asap, just in case it hits sooner than they would want from a grind point of view.

That’s why I think you shouldn’t wait with getting ascended gear till you need it because by then it will be a sort of mission impossible for more casual players.

Gehenna.3625:

Mirta.5029:

No reason to get ascendeds before they introduce it in the rest of the world. The only place where you need them right now is fractals. And complaining that you need to run fractals to run fractals is silly.

I cannot agree with this part of your post. The work needed to get these items takes a long time and is very boring. And you do need to run fractals to run the higher level of fractals because of the infusion, which isn’t exactly the same but close enough.

But back to the first point. Once they introduce the rest of the gear, you will not want to have to do all this work to get these items because you will need your time to get the new items. It will then be too late to start then. That’s the whole point of the phased introduction. Even though I am sure they will tone down the requirements for this gear, I doubt it will become a total turnaround. It will still take some effort at that point.

So especially casual players will feel they need to get it now before the next items come out, because then it will be double the work. Since no one knows when this will happen people will feel the pressure to get it done asap, just in case it hits sooner than they would want from a grind point of view.

That’s why I think you shouldn’t wait with getting ascended gear till you need it because by then it will be a sort of mission impossible for more casual players.

well they said that they will introduce them as crafted items, loot drops, etc. And at that point it MIGHT be easier to get it. Having in mind that now all people can beat you on is getting rings, when it fully comes out you’ll only be behind a few items. For some level 80s yellows are good enough so there’s no rush to go for the highest tier. When it comes out in order for me to get it a) I’ll need to be bothered. For now I’m good enough with exotics and having in mind that I don’t even NEED to own exotics to be useful I feel no pressure. So it will all depend on the requirements b) they’ll have to look good.
That’s just my point of view though.

@ Mirta…the key is in the word MIGHT. We don’t know how much easier if at all and because of that you feel you need to prepare on time….just in case.

That’s the trouble for a number of people. I’m sure not everybody worries about this but there you go.

Hydrophidian.4319:

If you in particular are able to endlessly replay the current content and never get bored with it, great. But I’d say you are an extreme outlier.

I guess…. idk, D2 had a good run for a couple of years before crazy runewords and the hellfire; which only made it run strong for a few more years (people still playing it as far as I know). There is a certain “magic”, or the right stuff if you wanna call it, that makes doing something over and over in game not feel like drudgery. I can’t say what the magic is cause it’s different for every game. I mean D2 has it’s thing, but I also like popping in ME2 every now and then even though I can beat it flawlessly with any class on insanity…. Something about the game makes it enjoyable to play even though I can essentially beat it in a comatose state.

GW2 had a real opportunity with it’s DE’s and content (present and future) to really take horizontal progression to the point where actions (or lack of actions) are constantly impacting your world. In a sense they delivered on this…. but almost in the same way like how you see a fast food commercial with this awesome burger only to get the thing and find two paper thin paddies squished between mammoth sized buns. Horizontal progression without any significant consequences (good or bad ones) behind actions isn’t really horizontal progression and doesn’t exactly generate the kind of desire to keep on doing the same thing.

Gehenna.3625:

@ Mirta…the key is in the word MIGHT. We don’t know how much easier if at all and because of that you feel you need to prepare on time….just in case.

That’s the trouble for a number of people. I’m sure not everybody worries about this but there you go.

Well they might or might not, either way it’s not the end of the world, it’s just gear in an MMO with a very shallow gear progression, meaning that while it’s good it’s not necessary.

Mirta.5029:

Gehenna.3625:

@ Mirta…the key is in the word MIGHT. We don’t know how much easier if at all and because of that you feel you need to prepare on time….just in case.

That’s the trouble for a number of people. I’m sure not everybody worries about this but there you go.

Well they might or might not, either way it’s not the end of the world, it’s just gear in an MMO with a very shallow gear progression, meaning that while it’s good it’s not necessary.

“It’s just gear in an MMO with a very shallow gear progression..” so far. Lets hope it’ll stay that way.

I’m just giving up on my legendary. I chose to do the legendary, but I don’t see the point in putting RNG all over, I’ve already put up with all the gifts except the precursor, I WON’T farm 300g to buy it, it’s plain stupid and demotivating.

I’m not going to touch this game until they offer a real challenge instead of more stupid farming/gambling, this does not make the legendary weapons more “legendary”, it just makes them stupid; I’m not recommending this game, as I’m sure people will quit once I tell them about this wonderful RNG system and the odds.

If I have to G-A-M-B-L-E or G-R-I-N-D a kittening lot to have something I chose as my end-game, then I don’t play until something is done about it; I want a challenge, gambling/grinding is not a challenge, everything that is a real challenge is this game rewards with poor-looking gear/weapons, everything that looks cool is just plain grinding or gambling.

cimon.5798:

has any of you whatsoever played a grindfest game at all. from the above statements i dont seem to think any one of you has. to call this game a grindfest where it literly takes a day to gear out a lvl 80 toon full exotics is like calling aa grilled cheese sandwich gourmet cooking. quit complaining about stupid stuff like this and get out there and fight in wvw so you can complain about that insted :P

While everyone is going to have a different threshold with regard to grind, this claim can be examined with hard numbers. Let’s assume that the person looking to “exotic-up” in is buying a set, because they have a build they want to enhance. Let’s also assume they want Carrion, currently one of the cheapest options. At current prices for 6 armor, 5 trinkets, and weapons, that would be ~40 gold. Add in desirable runes and sigils, and the price is over 50. Making 50 gold in a day? How do you do that, exactly? Or is “day” also subjective?

mavet.3047:

The whole point of these nerfs, which are intentional without a doubt, is that you spend more rl money on their piece of crap gem store. No subs so they have to sucker you in some how.

This never ever happened in GW1 though. Smells like Nexon up in here.

But I agree, it’s a low pathetic move by ANet and it’s been happening since release. Nerf all farms…. lol really, destroy my reasons to log in more please. If they think this encourages me to use the gem store it does the complete opposite.

Mayam.8976:

One could go on to insinuate that of the “farming” and “grinding” one’s done in this game for their “B.I.S Set” it’s a drop in the bucket to what many MMOs require for a B.I.S set up. Such that if one is casting a negative judgement on this game for it’s inherent “farming and grinding” then MMOs in general just may not be their bag.

Eh, I find that statement a bit sad. Mind, if someone honestly enjoys games that revolve around gear and grinding, that is perfectly fine, no skin off my nose, and no one has a right to begrudge them their fun or look down on them for liking what they do. I just wish that courtesy would go both ways. To imply that an entire genre must be this way instead of exploring the many other possibilities snubs everyone who does not enjoy these things, and it hinders innovation. And the fact that other games have a worse grind is not really a point in favor of this one.

There’s nothing about the basic idea of the MMORPG genre that implies or requires a grind. It’s not like saying well, FPS games are about killings lots and lots of people in real time, so if you don’t like that, you’re out of luck. Grinding isn’t even on the list if I’m thinking of what defines an RPG and makes it enjoyable. So I sincerely don’t understand why the concept of the central importance of grinding has become so widely, casually accepted — often to the exclusion of features like interaction, cooperation, creativity, story, choices and consequences, all of which are even more interesting in a multiplayer environment compared to a singleplayer one.

Again, I’m not saying that grind-based games should not be made. But I don’t want them to be seen as the end-all and be-all of the genre either — partly because IMO grinding is utterly uninspired and boring. If a developer relies on grinding to artificially extend playtime, I can’t help but think that they’re either bad or just plain lazy, and have no real passion for nor confidence in their game.

Alastar.2863:

Now, people keep complaining that a grind EXISTS in this game, here are my thoughts:

First, I would say no REQUIRED grind, you don’t need uber gear for pvp since you have gear provided for you and wvw has hundreds of people and siege weapons, gear matters VERY little then. in pve once you hit exotics you are in pretty good shape, any more work woulds just be a little extra push you don’t REALLY need, though it could be a little convenient to have that small boost.

YOU GRIND BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TO. Once you hit all exotics (plenty of vendors for that, like in Orr.) you are pretty much good to go Even legendaries don’t make that HUGE of a difference, noticeable, but not necessary.
they added quite a few things to make the game fun, World bosses, interesting events, dungeons (they are fun if you don’t make them a chore by your own choice and mindset) with alternate paths and stories, KEG BRAWL and in the upcoming update and event “wintersday” they will likely add ALOT more, maybe Charr Racing in the black citadel, one charr you can find around the tanks just inside the front gate of the black citadel was talking about that. I think that could be a fun mini-game.

Second:
Stop complaining about the EXISTANCE of the grind for the extra stuff and think about this:
Is there a SINGLE mmo that has less of a grind then this game?
(I’ll wait for an answer, let me know if one exists.)
In my personal experience, not sure how YOURS is but I find that I have been flying up levels, getting really powerful gear just by chance and if I don’t feel like working on my craftsmanship skills I’ll just buy a new item from the Trading post. Not bad at all.

I feel this is the best mmo I ever played, first one I ever felt it was worth my time to reach the level cap and keep playing! It eliminates everything I find annoying about mmos.

Enjoy the game, don’t make it a chore for yourself, if you can function and do serious damage to mobs and other players in the different modes and if you like Keg brawl, world bosses, events and other features in the game, stop complaining, maybe suggest a new approach or fixes but don’t say “the game is dead” or “they are destroying the game” or things along those lines, its only been out for a few months and they are bringing new features and fixes all the time and they listen to feedback.

People feel pressured to grind because nobody likes having inferior characters, besides there are aspects to WvW outside of the zergfest castle hopping PvD legion.

It’s not required yes, but neither is getting to level 80, or getting exotics, but most people do it anyway for the aforementioned reason.

Most PvP MMO’s have less of a grind than this game. SB DAoC and EVE are the three that come to my head, DAoC had plenty of grind post ToA but still far less than what is being asked here.

Depending on how you viewed WoW’s content it could have less grind than this too, certainly pre-progression raiding has less grind than this game and there are plenty of people who don’t view progression raiding as a grind otherwise the game would have died a long time ago, I personally do but each to their own. Even if you do view it as a grind, its comparable to this game.

And remember when making that comparison, this was marketed as a grind free PvP game. So being surprised when a lot of the people that purchased this get kitteny when they implement a grind that would make asian MMO’s blush is just being silly.

Rebound.3409:

Right now, for me that quote looks like the biggest fraud i’ve seen in any mmo advertisement. I dare any of u to find 100 charged lodestones without grinding more pathetically then a bot. Hell..u don’t even have spots to farm them anymore because nobody even does the orr events that unlock mobs for lodestones.

do you really have to get the 100 charged lodestones? Nope. that’s something you decided to try to get.

NO

you dont need to grind.

and thats why;
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-liberated-the-mmo-genre/first#post938345

PearlGore.7419:

Man if this game is grinding to you guys, must have never played Tera or Aion or any other MMO for that matter.

In less then a week my fresh 80 almost has a full set of exotic armor, yes I do still need a Longbow and Trinkets, but in other games that armor would have taken months, if I got it at all…

So, in other words you finished the non-grinding content in one “week”. Now, open the door and step into the wonderful grind that awaits you. Gear that takes months if you get at all is that way —>

IndigoSundown.5419:

cimon.5798:

has any of you whatsoever played a grindfest game at all. from the above statements i dont seem to think any one of you has. to call this game a grindfest where it literly takes a day to gear out a lvl 80 toon full exotics is like calling aa grilled cheese sandwich gourmet cooking. quit complaining about stupid stuff like this and get out there and fight in wvw so you can complain about that insted :P

While everyone is going to have a different threshold with regard to grind, this claim can be examined with hard numbers. Let’s assume that the person looking to “exotic-up” in is buying a set, because they have a build they want to enhance. Let’s also assume they want Carrion, currently one of the cheapest options. At current prices for 6 armor, 5 trinkets, and weapons, that would be ~40 gold. Add in desirable runes and sigils, and the price is over 50. Making 50 gold in a day? How do you do that, exactly? Or is “day” also subjective?

Measuring gold earned per “day” is a telltale sign of grind. This “day” must be VERY long and monotonous.

Fortuna.7259:

IndigoSundown.5419:

cimon.5798:

has any of you whatsoever played a grindfest game at all. from the above statements i dont seem to think any one of you has. to call this game a grindfest where it literly takes a day to gear out a lvl 80 toon full exotics is like calling aa grilled cheese sandwich gourmet cooking. quit complaining about stupid stuff like this and get out there and fight in wvw so you can complain about that insted :P

While everyone is going to have a different threshold with regard to grind, this claim can be examined with hard numbers. Let’s assume that the person looking to “exotic-up” in is buying a set, because they have a build they want to enhance. Let’s also assume they want Carrion, currently one of the cheapest options. At current prices for 6 armor, 5 trinkets, and weapons, that would be ~40 gold. Add in desirable runes and sigils, and the price is over 50. Making 50 gold in a day? How do you do that, exactly? Or is “day” also subjective?

Measuring gold earned per “day” is a telltale sign of grind. This “day” must be VERY long and monotonous.

Leaving out the word day, I don’t consider measuring gains to be a sign of grind. When I farm, I do so by doing what I want to do for as long as it holds my interest, then I stop. I do measure the amount of gold obtained versus time spent. Why? I’m curious, and I enjoy efficiency.

My goal with the post I quoted was to point out an unsupported claim, like one sees so often on internet forums. This one even came with the obligatory analogy, for kitten’s sake.

Fortuna.7259:

PearlGore.7419:

Man if this game is grinding to you guys, must have never played Tera or Aion or any other MMO for that matter.

In less then a week my fresh 80 almost has a full set of exotic armor, yes I do still need a Longbow and Trinkets, but in other games that armor would have taken months, if I got it at all…

So, in other words you finished the non-grinding content in one “week”. Now, open the door and step into the wonderful grind that awaits you. Gear that takes months if you get at all is that way —>

This made me laugh.

You’re not supposed to farm in GW2 by doing the same thing over and over, it ruins your experience. They want you to explore every corner of the map, run dungeons for armour and craft etc. Play on your alts.

Getting armor skins from dungeons IS “doing the same thing over and over”. So is crafting, due to the sheer amount of luck-dependent drops you need for every single piece.

This reminds me of what I learned from Valve’s dev commentaries.
Many people strive to do things in the absolute best way.
If the best way to win is terribly boring many people will do it anyway and then complain.
Because of this the best way to win should also be the most fun!

I think this also applies to MMOs.
People grind because it’s the best way to get things.
I think that this is why Arenanet is trying to nerf grinding.
It’s to make people do fun things instead.

I think that they mostly nailed it with the Dungeon Token system.
It rewards you for doing different paths once per day instead of repeating the same path many times a day and you constantly feel yourself moving towards your goal.

As for Legendaries…
Arenanet expected players to slowly work towards the Legendaries, to take months, perhaps even years to acquire one.
This is apparent in that some of the Legendaries weren’t even finished when people first got them, and in that they are not meant to provide an advantage over the current top tier of equipment.

Instead many are impatient, insist on grinding and then complain that they have to grind.

Again the issue is that the best way to get Legendaries is boring for most people.
I think that Arenanet messed up here by making Legendaries a matter of being rich and/or lucky + doing things not everybody finds fun

For example some people just don’t like WvW and they need to do it anyway just to get the Badges and World Completion for their Legendary Weapon(s).

If the goals for making a Legendary were monthly or daily tasks that slowly and visibly inched you towards your goal I think that the system would be much better received.

As it is now the best way to do things is not fun.
Good thing I’m not concerned with being optimal, nor is the guild I’m in.
I’ll likely never have a Legendary, thankfully I won’t ever need one, either.

LastDay.3524:

This reminds me of what I learned from Valve’s dev commentaries.
Many people strive to do things in the absolute best way.
If the best way to win is terribly boring many people will do it anyway and then complain.
Because of this the best way to win should also be the most fun!

This is pretty good advice!

Regardless of the changes over the past few months, there were still a lot of repetitive actions that needed to be performed in the game to achieve certain milestones. Whether you consider that as a negative grind or not is down to you – I’d hardy consider it universal – but I don’t really think that the act of gathering materials for things is particularly ‘fun’. Heading through dungeons is probably the most engaging way of getting the stuff you need for other stuff, but even that is bound to get boring after a time.

I’d love to see ANet implement alternative major means of gathering materials besides farming/salvaging/trade post. Allowing more people the opportunity to get a few rarer materials each day to act as a support could help immensely, as these things would both a) Add up over time, and b) Reduce the cost of these materials in the trading post due to availability. It could also promote people spending more cash money in the TP in order to get those few more materials they need when they’re just a little way from their goal. Scavenging hunts are a fairly popular idea, and making jumping puzzles hand out a few rare materials upon completion could work.

As far as I’m concerned, the game is fun, but the repetition less so – and I can appreciate why people might consider it a full-on grind. Patience is one thing, and player entitlement another, but if the game doesn’t really offer alternatives then it’s kinda tricky to defend these design choices too much.

Zoid.2568:

You’re not supposed to farm in GW2 by doing the same thing over and over, it ruins your experience. They want you to explore every corner of the map, run dungeons for armour and craft etc. Play on your alts.

No, they don’t. If they did, that style of play would not be visibly inferior to mindless repeated grinding, and it would offer meaningful rewards.

Nerfing farming options without boosting casual gains does not incentivize people to change gameplay to the one ANet says it’s desired – instead it will eventually make all types of gameplay equally unsatisfying.

I’m almost certain that the team who developed the Nov 15th patch aren’t the same people who developed GW2. When was the last time Colin posted anything?