Guild Wars 2

Edit: Thread title was modified and chosen by a moderator. The intent of this write-up is to discuss the relationship between GW2’s conveniences and the root causes of the lack of immersion in this game.

This isn’t in the suggestions forum, because there is no suggestion. This is an established game system and I’m aware it will not change.
This is not a gripe in the strictest sense, I still enjoy playing this game and will continue to play.
This is simply me trying to discuss one of the biggest things I feel GW2 is missing, and this post will be relatively long.

Guild Wars 2 lacks heart.

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.
- NPCs buy everything. They have unlimited money, and none of them have any personality. They want everything you have, and they have nothing you want. Somehow, they make enough money from selling bell peppers and white equipment to buy every last bit of loot you drag in.

These conveniences all replace major functions of a game world. Because things in this game travel freely at the speed of light, there just is no character left in the game.
Towns, stations, and outposts are valued in games because they are able to provide services and gathering areas. The fact that the game environment is not needed is a tremendous reason why this game, in many ways, feels hollow and empty. What is the real point of any of the NPCs, aside from providing bell peppers?

I can see that the developers in this game took the time to create cities like Claypool, Ebonhawke, and many of the racial cities. There are many intricate, painstakingly crafted parts of the world, but I truly wonder how many players really took the time to notice before warping off to Shadow Behemoth, then venting their rage about being in overflow.

Surely you can say that removing many of the conveniences of i’ve listed above would be a toll on the player experience in certain ways. I don’t mean to say it should have been done this way or not. You would have to run from place to place, and it would take time. You would have to find a town to NPC your gear or post items on the trading post. The flip side, however, is that players might grow to appreciate the environment they are in, cherish the value of a convenient portal or bridge. Cities would populate, (if only by necessity), and the game as a whole would slow down (ArenaNet, this also means that players would take a longer time to get through content). Towns, useful NPCS, settlements, outposts, and asura portals would gain meaning and relevance to players, and in turn they may take the time to get to know them. As things stand, I would be surprised if many of the players here can name a single NPC that resides in Rata Sum aside from Zojja. (I can’t). Is this what you wanted when the development team took the time to build an entire city?

Of even more benefit would be that you can’t simply look at your event timers and try to determine the optimal warping pattern to get 2 hits in on each large boss: you’d actually consider the area you are in. This lends significance to events, rather than the quick warp two-tap that is prevalent now.
There’s no value to being in Kessex Hills, or Fields of Ruin, or anything. You are not in any one location. Because of waypoints, you are everywhere. This diminishes the value of your environment, and leads to the feeling of the world just being one congealed blob, instead of distinct areas with unique features.

I make this post in an attempt to explain why I personally always found a little bit missing from the immersion of this game. The environment isn’t compelling because it isn’t necessary. This in turn doesn’t make the story compelling, because you never truly feel as if you are a part of the world. It feels a little bit like the attempt to roll out fast and new content has in turn neglected to flesh out many of the existing parts of the game, making the majority of the world seem unnecessary.

This game lacks heart, and it’s my least favorite thing about it.

I hope if anyone from ArenaNet does take the time to read this, they’ll think about it. I don’t know if everyone agrees with me, but I’m definitely certain i’m not alone in noticing the barren nature of every area in the game save for 1) World Boss fights 2) Lion’s Arch. The NPCs with no personality, and the numerous vendors that do nothing but hawk their bell peppers. The fact that many of the incredible places in this game have absolutely no purpose. It’s my hope that development will eventually fix some of these issues by making certain parts of the world feel needed.

It’s too late to change most of these aspects of the game, but the game will continue to grow, and it’s never too late to keep these things in mind. This post carries with it no concrete suggestions, just merely the opinions of one long-time player.

I’m going to go back to doing my Aetherblade Retreat achievements now. This game, if nothing else, is still fun with plenty of updates. I like it, and GW2 will continue to see my gem store support every month until I no longer feel this way. I look forward to seeing how this game unfolds.

LFk.1408:

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

One more list of complains that can be summed up with, “I wish Guild Wars 2 was more like all the other MMOs out there, with the same inconveniences and time sinks in place to deceive people into thinking they are fun, while they are just tricks to keep people p(l)aying longer”.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Erasculio.2914:

LFk.1408:

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

One more list of complains that can be summed up with, “I wish Guild Wars 2 was more like all the other MMOs out there, with the same inconveniences and time sinks in place to deceive people into thinking they are fun, while they are just tricks to keep people p(l)aying longer”.

Thanks, but no thanks.

He isn’t saying that at all. He is saying that it feels like important things that brought together pieces of a community are gone now. It isn’t about time sinks or inconveniences or even about fun. It’s about how he feels Guild Wars 2’s conveniences are actually a detrimental aspect to the entire game.

I love these conveniences and can’t imagine playing a game without them now

Erasculio.2914:

LFk.1408:

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

One more list of complains that can be summed up with, “I wish Guild Wars 2 was more like all the other MMOs out there, with the same inconveniences and time sinks in place to deceive people into thinking they are fun, while they are just tricks to keep people p(l)aying longer”.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I understand my post is long, and I do not blame you at all for not fully reading it.

I clearly state that I don’t wish these things at all, only wanting to discuss how many of these things brought character to the game.

Consider the following scenario:
A certain dynamic event results in the building of a bridge or portal, that saves players a considerable amount of travel time between two important places. It is periodically assaulted by saboteurs, and must be defended – or broken and rebuilt.

With things as they are – waypoints – no one would bat an eye at this. There’s probably a waypoint where you want to go anyway.
Without such a feature, wouldn’t this be an important event that the community should undertake?

Wouldn’t this make the world feel more interactive, as if the things you do within it result in real benefits for the community in the area?

ANet always talks about how they want a “living, breathing world”, but I feel as if the message got confused with “more temporary dungeons”.

Karizee.8076:

I love these conveniences and can’t imagine playing a game without them now

Ugh same here dude. Just because I discuss my thoughts doesn’t mean I don’t use these things.

Most of my above observations are from the things that I do myself. If a convenience is there, I will use it and love it. Trying to ignore it and roleplay in my own little world is something I could never do. Maybe I don’t have enough imagination.

We people are complex creatures I’m only guessing at the more immerse experience that could be achieved with less of these conveniences.

If you’ve ever played minecraft, you might understand (I haven’t, but I get the appeal).
If you just have everything handed to you, you don’t appreciate it.
You only appreciate that thing you built because you spent a month turning the entire continent upside down looking for the all the ore.

What is with all of these there are seemingly endless number of ppl on today who are writing the effectively the same thing in a painfully long way. Did writing class just end today and every one is itching to wright a long winded argument?

The thing is npc having limited gold will not work in an mmorpg setting that why you do not see it. In truth most games have removed the old system where npc have a set cap of gold and items they are just simply not needed any more.

Jski.6180:

What is with all of these there are seemingly endless number of ppl on today who are writing the effectively the same thing in a painfully long way. Did writing class just end today and every one is itching to wright a long winded argument?

Happens every time WoW loses a million subs.

Jski.6180:

What is with all of these there are seemingly endless number of ppl on today who are writing the effectively the same thing in a painfully long way. Did writing class just end today and every one is itching to wright a long winded argument?

The thing is npc having limited gold will not work in an mmorpg setting that why you do not see it. In truth most games have removed the old system where npc have a set cap of gold and items they are just simply not needed any more.

Occasionally, you might find that your boss will confuse length of project report with how comprehensive it is, so it’s not as useless a skill as you might think.

I’m not going to disagree with you, but I’ll just ask another question. Why have the NPC at all? Most of the ones in the cities don’t sell anything you need, and there’s no difference between them otherwise. They add no personality, no character…

What do you think about a “sell all” option, which functions like the “deposit all” function we already have? It just turns all of the items in your bag into the respective vendor value in coin.

Edit: I actually … don’t see how this is similar at all to anything else posted here today. I’m talking about game immersion and how it relates to the culture of convenience. Is there another post about this? I thought everyone was busy complaining about the RNG…

Erasculio.2914:

LFk.1408:

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

One more list of complains that can be summed up with, “I wish Guild Wars 2 was more like all the other MMOs out there, with the same inconveniences and time sinks in place to deceive people into thinking they are fun, while they are just tricks to keep people p(l)aying longer”.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Maybe you’re forgetting that people derive joy out of many different things. I agree with most of what the OP says; so many things in the game are just… useless, and don’t add anything. Compare Skyrim NPC’s to GW2’s. Yeah, completely different game, but still, the people in Skyrim are soooo much more useful and add a lot more to the game.

eye floater.7140:

Erasculio.2914:

LFk.1408:

I can start out with some background:
- Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.
- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.
- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.
- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

One more list of complains that can be summed up with, “I wish Guild Wars 2 was more like all the other MMOs out there, with the same inconveniences and time sinks in place to deceive people into thinking they are fun, while they are just tricks to keep people p(l)aying longer”.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Maybe you’re forgetting that people derive joy out of many different things. I agree with most of what the OP says; so many things in the game are just… useless, and don’t add anything. Compare Skyrim NPC’s to GW2’s. Yeah, completely different game, but still, the people in Skyrim are soooo much more useful and add a lot more to the game.

If by that you mean you can kill them and take their stuff, then yeah. Otherwise they dont have much more value, just more annoyance

April Fool’s 2014: Waypoints removed for your convenience. Enjoy your day.

LFk.1408:

- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.

You know I actually prefer this method compared to person to person trading. Lesser chances of person to person scamming (and its the key factor for ruining game experience for some) and not really much of marketing monopoly like I’ve seen in many MMOs. It actually kinda makes the in game market rather stable IMO.

LFk.1408:

- The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.

This function has most probably saved many of us from a “full bag” situation, not to mention banks are so so far away and they mostly reside in Major cities only.

LFk.1408:

- There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

Correct me if I am wrong but are you implying that waypoints should be removed or something like that? If it is, I think it isn’t really a good idea. Imagine running 15 mins pass mountainous terrain and a “Battlefield” to get to sorrow’s embrace or a whole length of a map to get to twilight arbor. It would be rather time consuming.

Every game has something that makes it unique and all those function actually are some of the unique points of GW2.

Edited to clear out spelling errors =x

I understand what the OP is saying, but I’m not 100% sure I agree.

The thing is, there are things in this game that add character to the game, and some people just ignore them. You need to get the Temple of Balthazar open (at least most people do) if you want obsidian shards. It’s a very long, and quite difficult quest chain.

There are quest chains for temples that you need to get exotic armor with specific stats for Karma.

These things are in the game.

And there are karma merchants that sell specific things that are fun or useful that you can only get in one place or another (ogre pet whistles, ember summoning stones and the like).

Instead of people crowding around a city, like they do in most games, they crowd around meta events in the world, so they can get loot.

Because my object to most MMOs is that most people end up in cities, and the entire game, this huge world, simply becomes a lobby while people wait in queues. And frankly, that’s not the kind of game I want to play.

Vayne.8563:

The thing is, there are things in this game that add character to the game, and some people just ignore them. You need to get the Temple of Balthazar open (at least most people do) if you want obsidian shards. It’s a very long, and quite difficult quest chain.

There are quest chains for temples that you need to get exotic armor with specific stats for Karma.

These things are in the game.

These are, unfortunately, the exceptions rather than the rule, in my opinion. I absolutely love the feeling of progression in Orr, but that’s the only place to experience it, and it’s the one of the few places the meta-event system really shines. Another one of those places is the chain in northern Harathi Hinterlands, and I think the game would be better if they were a more consistent element.

Also, the assured rare chests should be as difficult to get as one another. Killing Shadow Behemoth doesn’t really feel like an accomplishment; they really should be the summation of a meta-event rather than just big fights.

dragonrhapsody.6198:

LFk.1408:

T- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.

You know I actually prefer this method compared to person to person trading. Lesser chances of person to person scamming and not really much of marketing monopoly like I’ve seen in many MMOs. It actually kinda makes the in game market rather stable IMO.

Me too. I derive most of my income from the trading post, and particularly enjoy everything market related. It’s not that I mind interacting with people, but there’s a certain tediousness in having to do so – especially if you want to start dealing with large volumes.

What i’m trying to say is that the instant post-from-anywhere mechanic is yet another small factor that makes towns and cities feel less necessary. It’s not just this one attribute by any stretch, but this is one that I feel contributes to the overall feeling.

LFk.1408:

dragonrhapsody.6198:

LFk.1408:

T- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.

You know I actually prefer this method compared to person to person trading. Lesser chances of person to person scamming and not really much of marketing monopoly like I’ve seen in many MMOs. It actually kinda makes the in game market rather stable IMO.

Me too. I derive most of my income from the trading post, and particularly enjoy everything market related. It’s not that I mind interacting with people, but there’s a certain tediousness in having to do so – especially if you want to start dealing with large volumes.

What i’m trying to say is that the instant post-from-anywhere mechanic is yet another small factor that makes towns and cities feel less necessary. It’s not just this one attribute by any stretch, but this is one that I feel contributes to the overall feeling.

I agree. It gets annoying having to shout at towns “WTS this WTB that” and not to mention some buyers request for discount to buy at bulk. In addition, a flooded chat channel, with people repeating the same buying and selling. That is not the norm for GW2. If we want something, just buy it straight of the black lion trading or auction at the price we want and wait. Seriously the prices for many of the items are very reasonable and demand for the items are really high. It honestly it beats camping at major cities and shouting “WTS this WTB that”. It takes a little getting used to it but it’s a very efficient system.

Vayne.8563:

I understand what the OP is saying, but I’m not 100% sure I agree.

The thing is, there are things in this game that add character to the game, and some people just ignore them. You need to get the Temple of Balthazar open (at least most people do) if you want obsidian shards. It’s a very long, and quite difficult quest chain.

There are quest chains for temples that you need to get exotic armor with specific stats for Karma.

These things are in the game.

And there are karma merchants that sell specific things that are fun or useful that you can only get in one place or another (ogre pet whistles, ember summoning stones and the like).

Instead of people crowding around a city, like they do in most games, they crowd around meta events in the world, so they can get loot.

Because my object to most MMOs is that most people end up in cities, and the entire game, this huge world, simply becomes a lobby while people wait in queues. And frankly, that’s not the kind of game I want to play.

There are a lot of great things in this game! The fact that they keep getting nerfed is a topic for another time, but I have played with the Ash Legion Spy Kits, Elemental Poweder, Golems in the box, Teleporter gun…. everything I come across! (or whatever Dulfy tells me to. You know… whatever… same thing)

I do feel like these are more the exceptions than the rule, however. In addition, amongst all these objects, wouldn’t you agree many of them don’t even seem complete? For the longest time, Skale Venom just gave you a buff that says “Skale Venom”, without a single descriptor as to what it does. I think it still does that. It just doesn’t stack now, meaning it’s no longer used. The Ember pet also has some inconsistent behavior relative to other summons.

There just seems to be a disconnect between what is meant by these environmental objects (to make the world around you feel relevant), and what is actually occurring (they are all relatively weak, or promptly nerfed if they were not, making them largely unnecessary relative to your combat skills). There’s really no easy interface to use them smoothly, as you have to open your inventory in the middle of a fight and click on them (a “utility” slot with a hotkey would do wonders)- they just feel incomplete and halfway done.

I feel as if the intention of a game with a changing world is to generate immersion, but there are so many things in the game that break it. The overarching point i’m trying to make is not “please delete waypoints” or “please delete the trading post”. In fact, I want all of those things I initially mentioned to stay! To make them suddenly vanish is a rash, violent change, which I never advocate for any game. I want to use them as examples of why the world around us doesn’t feel necessary in this game, and hope that GW2 in the future takes more steps to make the world feel needed. I know for me at the very least, it’s one of the primary reasons why the world and story just feel hollow.

Viking Jorun.5413:

April Fool’s 2014: Waypoints removed for your convenience. Enjoy your day.

Actually, awesome April Fool’s joke

If this actually was permanent I would have the same fits as the rest of you, though.
As I hope i’ve made clear: I do not list these things as requests for removal. I want these things to stay! They are already too much a part of the game. I merely use them as examples of why the game world does not feel important – as if our characters are already capable of everything, and it’s arbitrary where they are located, or what they are doing.

This destroys significant opportunities to create real, consequential dynamic events that feel like they have an impact on the world (if unclear, see my bridge example above – search this page for “consider the following scenario”)

Message for LFK:
“Waypoints disabled on your account only! Enjoy your immersion!”
Good lord. Hopefully ArenaNet doesn’t read in sound bytes.

When I look at many aspects of the game world in GW2, I often wonder what the game would have been like if it had come out a year later. So many things seem unfinished, so many things under-developed.

What I would like as a test run is the mass disabling of waypoints in the leadup to a world boss – start the dynamic chain further back and make people works towards the "last boss’.

e.g. disable (contested) Phinney, monastery, swamp, when the window of SB starts (from the underworld unrest or whatever), reduce the SB window but make people have to walk through one of the pre-event areas to make it to SB. Then it’s less camping for world events and more of a dynamic chain.

I like the optional events too – bridge building event reducing the distance to walk to final boss etc. It’ll probably cull the world event camping crowd but might help immersion.

The Harathi chain is pretty well done IMO. If only they had specific vendors once you conquered the overlord area selling event cosmetic stuff, that’d be awesome.

Just my thoughts.

In regards to

Towns, useful NPCS, settlements, outposts, and asura portals would gain meaning and relevance to players, and in turn they may take the time to get to know them. As things stand, I would be surprised if many of the players here can name a single NPC that resides in Rata Sum aside from Zojja. (I can’t). Is this what you wanted when the development team took the time to build an entire city?

I think that’s more of an issue design-wise with cities/racial hubs in general based of a few things:
– The whole idea was for them to make Lions Arch the hub for all races…so that in essence makes racial hubs pretty pointless after a few levels in. There’s no need to hang around there.
– The Racial hubs hold no significant factors worth staying and exploring beyond the POI/Gates/Vistas for map completion.
– Events are held or revolve around LA. Even the xmas event went through towns but ended and remained at LA. We did have SAB, but that has since passed and those people have also moved on.
– Mystic Forge is only in LA

Basically, emphasis on LA being the root of all attacks/defenses/plots to take over tyria/plots to save tyria/event minigames/Fractals portal/Boat to Southsun etc, means you spend less and less time in racial hubs.

I disagree.

Part of the reason I am playing less these days are the games inconviences. Having to clear long group event chains in order to access dungeons (CoF, CoE) and cool boss fights (Karka Queen) seems silly to me. I have limited playing time and would like to access the content that I want to do and not have to fight through tedious gates to get to my preferred content. That was suppose to be one of the features of this game.

I agree about Karka Queen tho, nice tough fight but shame nobody is in SSC anymore. For dungeons, guesting is always a viable option. Might be missing something here.. but for the other world bosses, there’s nothing cool about a bunch of people standing near a dragon’s foot hitting 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 repeatedly.

IMO rewards should be in line with the effort put in. And no, being in a guild where guildies say “SB 50%” and then waypointing in and hitting SB twice for the chest is not effort.

If not for immersion and working through the event chain, then at least preventing people from teleporting in and two tapping epic world boss fights for their loot seems fair to me.

Peetee.9406:

I disagree.

Part of the reason I am playing less these days are the games inconviences. Having to clear long group event chains in order to access dungeons (CoF, CoE) and cool boss fights (Karka Queen) seems silly to me. I have limited playing time and would like to access the content that I want to do and not have to fight through tedious gates to get to my preferred content. That was suppose to be one of the features of this game.

Increasing the immersion of the game and making the AI world feel more relevant does not absolutely require gating new content – these things are not necessarily related.

I think you might find that more consequential dynamic events benefit everyone as would a more spread out population and interest in various zones.

Of course, some of the changes I’d like may not benefit your style of play, and vice versa. Not everyone can agree. I do maintain, however, that the ultimate goal of a “living, breathing world” is supposed to be immersion and attachment to the world.

The current status of the world being nothing but a backdrop is not exactly achieving this goal.

nethykins.7986:

Basically, emphasis on LA being the root of all attacks/defenses/plots to take over tyria/plots to save tyria/event minigames/Fractals portal/Boat to Southsun etc, means you spend less and less time in racial hubs.

This is probably one of the easiest things to fix in the short term, i.e. just stick an event in there, but I would love to see cities serve a more permanent purpose. What could be reason people go there after the event ends? The most common reason for MMORPGs, basic services, is already moot as I discussed in my original post. Is this feasible? Even in games where cities do serve as hubs, players tend to self-declare a handful of them as “official” hubs. In GW2, without the need for a bank, a trading post, or a merchant, maybe there’s just no way to do this.

Sarrs.4831:

Vayne.8563:

The thing is, there are things in this game that add character to the game, and some people just ignore them. You need to get the Temple of Balthazar open (at least most people do) if you want obsidian shards. It’s a very long, and quite difficult quest chain.

There are quest chains for temples that you need to get exotic armor with specific stats for Karma.

These things are in the game.

These are, unfortunately, the exceptions rather than the rule, in my opinion. I absolutely love the feeling of progression in Orr, but that’s the only place to experience it, and it’s the one of the few places the meta-event system really shines. Another one of those places is the chain in northern Harathi Hinterlands, and I think the game would be better if they were a more consistent element.

Also, the assured rare chests should be as difficult to get as one another. Killing Shadow Behemoth doesn’t really feel like an accomplishment; they really should be the summation of a meta-event rather than just big fights.

See again, this statement I’m not sure about.

I don’t think every zone should be a variation on the same theme. We do have it in Harathi and we do have it in Orr. In other zones, we have other things that some people like. There’s a mix of stuff.

The point is is that it’s there…its’ a spring board…a starting point.

When Rift started it had 11 zones, all smaller than the zones in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 gave us a skeleton of what is to come..which is all most MMOs can do. Now you start building on that skeleton…and that takes time.

I think the ideas are solid, but there isn’t enough of anything. Not enough challenging stuff, not enough grinding stuff, not enough styles of armor, not enough cool outfits in the cash shop…it’s all stuff that requires time.

Two years from now, all this will be much different. For now, there is stuff in the game. Not enough stuff for most demographics. The quantity of content will arrive over time.

Viking Jorun.5413:

April Fool’s 2014: Waypoints removed for your convenience. Enjoy your day.

Yes.

Although after reading this thread I may try just going through portals and traveling a little bit sometime.

The problem is that when you play Guild Wars 2, you are very aware that you are playing a game, and that’s my problem.

If this makes sense to anyone, I think Guild Wars 2 world PvE is the most themepark of any MMO I’ve ever played.

No matter what I found in GW2 PvE, I always felt like “this is what they wanted me to experience” which bothered the hell out of me.

Even with playing WoW/Rift/Warhammer, I had a MUCH more immersive experience in PvE.

When I play an MMO, I like to explore. Guild Wars 2 is a nightmare for me, because there is no exploration. There is experiencing what they wanted me to.

Exploration is a sandbox activity. Not themepark. What Guild Wars 2 tried to do was turn it into one.

I’m having a hard time expressing what I mean. Maybe this will help. When I go into a zone, I look at the map and the game tells me where every quest, interesting spot, scenic outlook, path, etc is. The zones are square so it’s not like I don’t know exactly where it ends, and each zone is not seamless. It’s like every square inch of each map is a little “activity” for me to look at. When exploring I felt like I was in a box too, the map is always a rectangle and you’re always very aware where the limits are. The zones felt like there was a set path to go on, whereas in other games I might random trek through a forest and over a mountain because I feel like it.

It doesn’t feel organic whatsoever. I always felt like I was playing a game; in other MMOs I felt like I was in a real second world (minus the horrible questing which was only sometimes fun). I could look around and see a huge forest and walk around in it. In Guild Wars 2, a forest is a bunch of trees with a few mobs in it for the heart where a giant troll might pop out every 20 minutes. And after the “forest” would be a mountain for the side/barrier of the zone on one side, two paths, one leading to the NPC heart and the other a tunnel that leads to a skill point and a POI.

Guild Wars 2 PvE exploration wasn’t like I could get into my character and get into the world and the people inside of it, it was just something to do in between personal story and a tool to level up. It looked really, really nice, but that doesn’t make up for what it was.

But then again… I guess it’s what most people want in an MMO now. People want something to DO not something to really experience.

I’ve put 900 hours into the game, just for reference.

For the record, some areas felt less like this, and Orr was pretty cool.

Alarox.4590:

The problem is that when you play Guild Wars 2, you are very aware that you are playing a game, and that’s my problem.

If this makes sense to anyone, I think Guild Wars 2 world PvE is the most themepark of any MMO I’ve ever played.

No matter what I found in GW2 PvE, I always felt like “this is what they wanted me to experience” which bothered the hell out of me.

Even with playing WoW/Rift/Warhammer, I had a MUCH more immersive experience in PvE.

When I play an MMO, I like to explore. Guild Wars 2 is a nightmare for me, because there is no exploration. There is experiencing what they wanted me to.

Exploration is a sandbox activity. Not themepark. What Guild Wars 2 tried to do was turn it into one.

I’m having a hard time expressing what I mean. Maybe this will help. When I go into a zone, I look at the map and the game tells me where every quest, interesting spot, scenic outlook, path, etc is. The zones are square so it’s not like I don’t know exactly where it ends, and each zone is not seamless. It’s like every square inch of each map is a little “activity” for me to look at. When exploring I felt like I was in a box too, the map is always a rectangle and you’re always very aware where the limits are. The zones felt like there was a set path to go on, whereas in other games I might random trek through a forest and over a mountain because I feel like it.

It doesn’t feel organic whatsoever. I always felt like I was playing a game; in other MMOs I felt like I was in a real second world (minus the horrible questing which was only sometimes fun). I could look around and see a huge forest and walk around in it. In Guild Wars 2, a forest is a bunch of trees with a few mobs in it for the heart where a giant troll might pop out every 20 minutes. And after the “forest” would be a mountain for the side/barrier of the zone on one side, two paths, one leading to the NPC heart and the other a tunnel that leads to a skill point and a POI.

Guild Wars 2 PvE exploration wasn’t like I could get into my character and get into the world and the people inside of it, it was just something to do in between personal story and a tool to level up. It looked really, really nice, but that doesn’t make up for what it was.

But then again… I guess it’s what most people want in an MMO now. People want something to DO not something to really experience.

I’ve put 900 hours into the game, just for reference.

---

For the record, some areas felt less like this, and Orr was pretty cool.

You sound like exactly the type of person who’d be better off exploring with the map markers off.

I understand exactly what you mean about always being aware you’re playing a game.

Vayne.8563:

You sound like exactly the type of person who’d be better off exploring with the map markers off.

I understand exactly what you mean about always being aware you’re playing a game.

No map markers might have helped, but my core problem is the design of the maps themselves I suppose. ArenaNet created a beautiful game with lots of cool parts of their zones, and I would really love it if that’s all I wanted in a game world.

Alarox.4590:

Vayne.8563:

You sound like exactly the type of person who’d be better off exploring with the map markers off.

I understand exactly what you mean about always being aware you’re playing a game.

No map markers might have helped, but my core problem is the design of the maps themselves I suppose.

How so…I’m interested.

See, when I started this game, I didn’t like the checklist aspect, so I turned the markers off. It makes for a much more interesting game…particularly if you’re still trying for zone completion.

Vayne.8563:

How so…I’m interested.

See, when I started this game, I didn’t like the checklist aspect, so I turned the markers off. It makes for a much more interesting game…particularly if you’re still trying for zone completion.

First, I can’t stand the idea of creating an artificial challenge to myself when I’m trying to be efficient. My personality is logical, but relaxed and lazy. To do something that my primary motivations for doing are rewards, I want to get it done as easily as possible, especially if I don’t enjoy it too much.

But at the same time, I want to enjoy doing what I like doing while I do the stuff for the rewards.

It’s a fundamental contradiction, but if there’s anything I feel more strongly about than doing what I like to do, it’s not spending extra energy doing something I don’t like to do.

But from a design perspective, I have a hard time enjoying the maps because you CAN place everything in terms of markers.

In most MMOs you have zones with a bunch of random crap all over the place that serves no purpose except to create thematic space and emulate the real world. In Guild Wars 2 the map design is INCREDIBLY efficient. In reality, the outside world is NOT nice and neat and perfect. The fact that the Human starter zone has all these conveniently placed hearts all packed together in such a precise arrangement… doesn’t feel ‘real’ at all.

Maybe that’s why I liked Harathi Hinterlands (or however it was named) and Orr. Both felt messy and chaotic, and both were HUGE and spread out. Both had very unique shapes and it didn’t feel like I was caged in a box with 4 mountains around me.

I hope I’ve articulated this all well, it’s mostly a rant.

Note: I finished zone completion way far back.

Alarox.4590:

Vayne.8563:

How so…I’m interested.

See, when I started this game, I didn’t like the checklist aspect, so I turned the markers off. It makes for a much more interesting game…particularly if you’re still trying for zone completion.

First, I can’t stand the idea of creating an artificial challenge to myself when I’m trying to be efficient. My personality is logical, but relaxed and lazy. To do something that my primary motivation for doing is a reward, I want to get it done as easily as possible.

But at the same time, I want to enjoy doing what I like doing.

It’s a fundamental contradiction, but if there’s anything I feel more strongly about than doing what I like to do, it’s not spending extra energy doing something I don’t like to do.

---

But from a design perspective, I have a hard time enjoying the maps because you CAN place everything in terms of markers.

In most MMOs you have zones with a bunch of random crap all over the place that serves no purpose. In Guild Wars 2 the map design is INCREDIBLY efficient. In reality, the outside world is NOT nice and neat and perfect. The fact that the Human starter zone has all these conveniently placed hearts all packed together in such a precise arrangement… doesn’t feel ‘real’ at all.

Maybe that’s why I liked Harathi Hinterlands (or however it was named) and Orr. Both felt messy and chaotic, and both were HUGE and spread out. Both had very unique shapes and it didn’t feel like I was caged in a box with 4 mountains around me.

I hope I’ve articulated this all well, it’s mostly a rant.

I actually get this completely. With hearts up and such, the game is a lot different than when you can’t see them.

I come from the old RPG world. Before there were arrows showing you where to go, or little stars on the map marking who you have to talk to. It’s tough, because the first thing half the people playing a game do is run to the wiki or a fan site to get a walk through. There really is very little brain power required to play most modern MMOs.

I loved your post, LFk. Thank you for writing out your thoughts and feelings.
Personally, I limit myself to a single waypoint use each day. Usually I make my way out from one of the major cities, adventure with no destination in mind for 3-8 hours depending on what day it is, and then I waypoint to the nearest major city when I am done for the day/night. Other times I waypoint really far away from a major city and then make my way back to it while adventuring, but with a destination in mind. I also play with my interface turned off much of the time. I don’t use any portable merchant, bank, TP summons at all on my journey, though I do ship off items from my bags to the TP from time to time, however, I never deposit any ‘collectibles’ items to my bank and I also sell my ‘junk’ at the merchants I pass along the way.

It is so easy to get caught up in and become numb to the level of instant gratification, removal of challenges, hindrances to ‘progression’, and fixation on the next destination imposed by these elements that speed up and lessen the enjoyment of the gameplay, that I try to remove those distractions so as to better appreciate each moment in the gorgeous world. But some things, no matter what I do, I cannot hide from their forcing themselves in upon my time playing…like the right mouse button losing focus bug that has never been addressed. No matter what I do, I cannot hide from that sabotaging element when it strikes, and it is usually impossible to even attempt to continue playing at all for that day due to how completely and instantly it destroys any fun I was having in the game.

I don’t think there are many others that play this game the way I do, or get out of it what I get out of it. I’m not saying it is a perfect game (it’s far from what I consider perfect), but I need to do what I can to make myself focus on what does make it great fun and an enjoyable experience. I also work constantly to limit my exposure to the elements that continually remind me of how I feel the game, in some respects, seems to be going in a very bad direction, though I am trying to stay positive about it.

Thanks for the replies… I did try to give my thought about each and every post but at this point it would take me some time.

The great thing is that a lot of people are still positive about the game, including me.

I note the title of the thread got ninja-changed by a moderator, which is interesting. I didn’t believe the original title was misleading or offensive, and actually was relevant to what I wanted to discuss: The relationship between convenience and world immersion. For reference, it was “The cost of convenience – what GW2 is missing”.

Of course, given the way things are generally run here, I will not attempt to revise it at the risk deletion entirely – but it’s actually a very fascinating metaphor for GW2 itself.

I suspect these stealth title changes are a reason why so many of these threads are just mistaken for other “complain” threads. The new title assigned is, I note, bland, generic, and as a whole will blend into the thousands of other voices on this forum. Whether or not any of these ideas really contain substance will just be lost in the mix.

It perfectly parallels one of the major points I was attempting to make: The NPCs, the cities have become all become generic. Nothing separates them or gives them personality.

To Alarox: I have the same problem. If an ability is there, I cannot pretend that it is not. I won’t close my eyes and ignore waypoints, crafting stations, deposit all, etc. in an effort to create the world I was referring to. I can’t pretend that saving bandits from poisoning the well has any more implication than some experience, karma, and a silver – the exact same generic reward as doing any other dynamic event. A lack of imagination on my part, possible, but I really believe it is up to game design to make the world compelling. For all I enjoy about this game, this is one area where Guild Wars 2 has not succeeded at all.

Thanks to the trading post function, you can sell from anywhere. You don’t have to be at a trading post merchant to post up your items.

I agree, though the fact that you must go to the TP to pick up whatever you’ve sold is softens this by alot.

- Person to person trading is non-existent, so there is no need of a major hub in the game. The trading post is nameless and faceless.

Agree and how about how you really don’t need other people for a profession standpoint. Hell, if you really wanted you can all the professions and become an even bigger recluse.

The deposit all function performs the majority of the role of a bank, in an instant.

Whoa, lets not get carried away. It would certainly be frowned upon because bag and bank space must be bought with real money.

There are portals and paths in the game that lead here and there, but waypoints lead anywhere and everywhere in the game in an instant. The only advantage of a portal is that it is free.

I feel that waypoints are to numerous also. They try to tone down on this by the fact that if you really look at it WPing is expensive.

NPCs buy everything. They have unlimited money, and none of them have any personality. They want everything you have, and they have nothing you want. Somehow, they make enough money from selling bell peppers and white equipment to buy every last bit of loot you drag in.

I’ve never understood this in games. IMO it is so annoying If I want to sell my junk and I have to run around to 5 different npcs I get it that in real life their are constraints in bartering, but this is a game and I feel like this is one of those issues where the immersion you get just isn’t worth the time.

*Good post though. I made a post that was similar awhile ago. What I do to keep immersed is avoid using waypoints. And I talk to the NPC scouts to connect more to the story of the zone.

LFk.1408:

*

I agree, and I’m glad to see someone else thinks the same way I do. I will always dislike the fact that I warp to meta-bosses, events, dungeons and never stop in certain maps because they have nothing to offer. The main storyline in GW1 was amazing, and I couldn’t wait to complete the storyline of GW2, but then it was a huge disappointment because it lacked feeling. Shooting a dragon with a cannon was nothing compared to killing Abaddon with my bare hands. It was quite an achievement that I was proud of because it took skill. I was really surprised that I was able to kill Zhaitan with one hand while eating popcorn with the other. I completely agree that some aspects of this game need to be upgraded, and some aspects need to be downgraded.

All of these things were major annoyances in GW1, I’m glad they aren’t in GW2.
-The lack of a trading post was a major gripe in GW1. Besides the lame constant scam attempts, P2P trading basically sucked. The constant, persistent need for having to bargain for every stupid little item made me avoid it as much as possible.
The “personal touch” went something like this:
-Stand around town spamming “WTB/WTS whatever.” Standing, spamming, not
playing
-Having someone respond and demand you make them an offer. If you ask for a
price, no, they want an offer, even if it’s something stupid and cheap.
-You give in, make what you think is a reasonable offer, instead you either
get called a noob, or given a counter-offer so you have to bargain all
over again.
And GW1 had significantly less items traded than GW2, so I am very glad to be able to get my butter and eggs and level 10 spear anonymously and quickly.

-Depositing saves me time so I can kill stuff and have fun. Managing bank inventory – not fun.

-Being able to sell to any merchant and having merchants everywhere is great. Nothing kills immersion more than having to travel back and forth to towns constantly because your bags are full and you need to sell. Having your storage full of junk that you can’t get rid of isn’t fun and it doesn’t make the game have “heart.” If anything we need more of them (especially in dungeons).

-Waypoints were in GW1, so I don’t see an immersion problem. They’re convenient. It’s nice not to have to run all over the map constantly to get to an area (like some GW1 dungeons). The maps are beautiful and I like exploring them, but sometimes I want/need to get somewhere quickly (a must for guild bounties and world events).

See, the whole shooting a dragon with a canon thing is a red herring. This comes from people thinking of bosses as bosses, and gaming in a certain way. I have a whole different view of Arah story mode than most people, because I don’t separate boss battles out in my head. We never had bosses when I played pen and paper RPGs and even in many computer RPGs, boss battles are sort of a more recent addition (though an older one to be sure). Basically if you’re fighting an army, who cares about “the boss”.

The thing about Zhaitan wasnt’ that you killed him with a canon. It’s like ignoring the personal story and below this point there are SPOILERS to the personal story for those who didn’t complete it.

First, you weaken Zhaitan by partially blinding him, cutting off some of his food supply (which is where his power comes from) and even crippling his ability to make more undead.

From level 70 up, your entire personal story is all about weakening Zhaitan.

And in the end you’re not just shooting him with a gun (though it much looks like that). You’re taking a very specific weapon designed by the Asuran genius Professor Gorr (who you meet in one of the Asuran story lines while no one believes his theories), which is designed specifically to be anti-dragon magic. You even have a mission to test this weapon on dragon minions in the Asuran story line.

In fact, the story lines from the different races tend to meet up in Orr, and this is one of the most ignored parts of the personal story. The magic mirror comes back from the Sylvari storyline along with the people who first used it. Professor Gorr makes a return from the Asuran storyline. There are many characters found in different story lines who end up in the last scenes, and if you play one character and one personal story, you’ll probably never put it all together.

But you didn’t just go up to Zhaitan and shoot him with a gun. Your direct battle with Zhaitan begins the moment you get to Fort Trinity and continues until the moment you defeat him.

As a single boss in a game, Zhaitan is pretty meh. As part of the greater story it’s actually pretty kitten ed cool.

My perspective as a writer leads me to not isolate individual events and see the story as a whole. It’s much better that way.

Vayne.8563:

See, the whole shooting a dragon with a canon thing is a red herring. This comes from people thinking of bosses as bosses, and gaming in a certain way. I have a whole different view of Arah story mode than most people, because I don’t separate boss battles out in my head. We never had bosses when I played pen and paper RPGs and even in many computer RPGs, boss battles are sort of a more recent addition (though an older one to be sure). Basically if you’re fighting an army, who cares about “the boss”.

The thing about Zhaitan wasnt’ that you killed him with a canon. It’s like ignoring the personal story and below this point there are SPOILERS to the personal story for those who didn’t complete it.

First, you weaken Zhaitan by partially blinding him, cutting off some of his food supply (which is where his power comes from) and even crippling his ability to make more undead.

From level 70 up, your entire personal story is all about weakening Zhaitan.

And in the end you’re not just shooting him with a gun (though it much looks like that). You’re taking a very specific weapon designed by the Asuran genius Professor Gorr (who you meet in one of the Asuran story lines while no one believes his theories), which is designed specifically to be anti-dragon magic. You even have a mission to test this weapon on dragon minions in the Asuran story line.

In fact, the story lines from the different races tend to meet up in Orr, and this is one of the most ignored parts of the personal story. The magic mirror comes back from the Sylvari storyline along with the people who first used it. Professor Gorr makes a return from the Asuran storyline. There are many characters found in different story lines who end up in the last scenes, and if you play one character and one personal story, you’ll probably never put it all together.

But you didn’t just go up to Zhaitan and shoot him with a gun. Your direct battle with Zhaitan begins the moment you get to Fort Trinity and continues until the moment you defeat him.

As a single boss in a game, Zhaitan is pretty meh. As part of the greater story it’s actually pretty kitten ed cool.

My perspective as a writer leads me to not isolate individual events and see the story as a whole. It’s much better that way.

It still really doesn’t change the fact that he was incredibly anticlimactic. That alone really kills the overall joy for me, personally.

Vayne.8563:

See, the whole shooting a dragon with a canon thing is a red herring. This comes from people thinking of bosses as bosses, and gaming in a certain way. I have a whole different view of Arah story mode than most people, because I don’t separate boss battles out in my head. We never had bosses when I played pen and paper RPGs and even in many computer RPGs, boss battles are sort of a more recent addition (though an older one to be sure). Basically if you’re fighting an army, who cares about “the boss”.

The thing about Zhaitan wasnt’ that you killed him with a canon. It’s like ignoring the personal story and below this point there are SPOILERS to the personal story for those who didn’t complete it.

First, you weaken Zhaitan by partially blinding him, cutting off some of his food supply (which is where his power comes from) and even crippling his ability to make more undead.

From level 70 up, your entire personal story is all about weakening Zhaitan.

And in the end you’re not just shooting him with a gun (though it much looks like that). You’re taking a very specific weapon designed by the Asuran genius Professor Gorr (who you meet in one of the Asuran story lines while no one believes his theories), which is designed specifically to be anti-dragon magic. You even have a mission to test this weapon on dragon minions in the Asuran story line.

In fact, the story lines from the different races tend to meet up in Orr, and this is one of the most ignored parts of the personal story. The magic mirror comes back from the Sylvari storyline along with the people who first used it. Professor Gorr makes a return from the Asuran storyline. There are many characters found in different story lines who end up in the last scenes, and if you play one character and one personal story, you’ll probably never put it all together.

But you didn’t just go up to Zhaitan and shoot him with a gun. Your direct battle with Zhaitan begins the moment you get to Fort Trinity and continues until the moment you defeat him.

As a single boss in a game, Zhaitan is pretty meh. As part of the greater story it’s actually pretty kitten ed cool.

My perspective as a writer leads me to not isolate individual events and see the story as a whole. It’s much better that way.

I agree with this.

I also agree with most of the OP.

To be honest I rather miss bartering over the price of a trade with other players. Made some good friends that way in GW1.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Vayne.8563:

See, the whole shooting a dragon with a canon thing is a red herring. This comes from people thinking of bosses as bosses, and gaming in a certain way. I have a whole different view of Arah story mode than most people, because I don’t separate boss battles out in my head. We never had bosses when I played pen and paper RPGs and even in many computer RPGs, boss battles are sort of a more recent addition (though an older one to be sure). Basically if you’re fighting an army, who cares about “the boss”.

The thing about Zhaitan wasnt’ that you killed him with a canon. It’s like ignoring the personal story and below this point there are SPOILERS to the personal story for those who didn’t complete it.

First, you weaken Zhaitan by partially blinding him, cutting off some of his food supply (which is where his power comes from) and even crippling his ability to make more undead.

From level 70 up, your entire personal story is all about weakening Zhaitan.

And in the end you’re not just shooting him with a gun (though it much looks like that). You’re taking a very specific weapon designed by the Asuran genius Professor Gorr (who you meet in one of the Asuran story lines while no one believes his theories), which is designed specifically to be anti-dragon magic. You even have a mission to test this weapon on dragon minions in the Asuran story line.

In fact, the story lines from the different races tend to meet up in Orr, and this is one of the most ignored parts of the personal story. The magic mirror comes back from the Sylvari storyline along with the people who first used it. Professor Gorr makes a return from the Asuran storyline. There are many characters found in different story lines who end up in the last scenes, and if you play one character and one personal story, you’ll probably never put it all together.

But you didn’t just go up to Zhaitan and shoot him with a gun. Your direct battle with Zhaitan begins the moment you get to Fort Trinity and continues until the moment you defeat him.

As a single boss in a game, Zhaitan is pretty meh. As part of the greater story it’s actually pretty kitten ed cool.

My perspective as a writer leads me to not isolate individual events and see the story as a whole. It’s much better that way.

It still really doesn’t change the fact that he was incredibly anticlimactic. That alone really kills the overall joy for me, personally.

He was anticlimatic to you. He wasn’t anticlimatic to me.

He was very anticlimactic because he didn’t live up to the hype as an elder dragon.. And We didn’t even get to fight him directly at all.

Leo Paul.1659:

He was very anticlimactic because he didn’t live up to the hype as an elder dragon.. We didn’t get to fight him directly at all.

As I said, I was fighting him ALL ALONG. You’re locked into this “boss” idea of fighting him directly. I never had that need. I suggest many people DO have that need, being trained by dungeons in other games….but that’s not my problem. I don’t find him anticlimatic, because I’d spend five missions crippling him in the first place.

I see the dungeon as a whole. You’re separating out the last boss, who you assumed would still be this massively powerful entity. By the time you reach Zhaitan, most of the damage had already been done…by you.

It wasn’t his literal mouths or eyes that I fought. And even so, he’s an elder dragon who’s lived for eons. Cutting off his supply of power for what, several days is supposed to make him super weak immediately?

Leo Paul.1659:

It wasn’t his literal mouths or eyes that I fought. And even so, he’s an elder dragon who’s lived for eons. Cutting off his supply of power for what, several days is supposed to make him super weak immediately?

Nope…what is Zhaitan’s power? Raising the dead. We cut off his magic, his supply of undead, partially blinded him and on top of that, we’re using an asuran technology that uses anti-dragon magic. It’s called technology. It’s anticlimactic if you don’t understand what the laser is, but it’s made specifically to take on the elder dragons.

It doesn’t make the encounter any less anticlimactic. What is so fun in shooting down a creature supposedly rivaling a god with a pink laser in an underwhelming cutscene?

Regardless of what the items we used to defeat him are called, he still doesn’t live up to the hype. It took an entire race (dwarves) to defeat Primordus’ general for god’s sake.

I guess what we’re trying to say is that Zhaitan deserved better treatment that what they gave him in the story.

We glitter-bombed him kitten . -_- Mariah Carey could’ve done that by herself.

Leo Paul.1659:

It doesn’t make the encounter any less anticlimactic. What is so fun in shooting down a creature supposedly rivaling a god with a pink laser in an underwhelming cutscene?

Regardless of what the items we used to defeat him are called, he still doesn’t live up to the hype. It took an entire race (dwarves) to defeat Primordus’ general for god’s sake.

I guess what we’re trying to say is that Zhaitan deserved better treatment that what they gave him in the story.

We glitter-bombed him kitten . -_- Mariah Carey could’ve done that by herself.

I’m really sorry you’re not following what I’m trying to say, but I guess I can keep repeating it.

It was anticlimatic to you. I didn’t see the specific fight with Zhaitan as THE fight. I’d been fighting Zhaitan all along. I saw the piece as a whole. I didn’t take the boss fight out of the whole so by the time Zojja used the anti dragon magic gun to cripple Zhaitan…I’d already felt I’d had it on the run.

In other words, if you paid attention to the personal story, Zhaitan was LOSING the battle with us. Throwing everything at us and we were advancing. The actual death of Zhaitan is more of an epilogue to everything I’d experienced than an event in and of itself. You were looking for that event and I’m not.

You can’t say something is objectively anticlimatic, only subjective. I agree it was anticlimatic for you. I’m explaining why it wasn’t anticlimatic to me. You can’t argue me around into believing something I enjoyed immensely is suddenly anticlimatic. In fact, Arah is my favorite story mode dungeon.

it’s condescending to presume that we didn’t pay attention to the story. i understand that you are easily impressed and i respect that.