Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

I have both a zerker and a bunker char, and i run both.

And what classes?

Khallis.5708:

incognito.4019:

Just because you cannot or refuse to play a dps character does not mean that others who do enjoy or have the skills required to play said gear should suffer. Shame on you.

oh stop this game is so dumbed down, you are over exaggerating the skill required to play the dps spec.

If it is so easy to play dps spec why aren’t you playing it?…oh you don’t like it so everyone that plays it should have diminished rewards or whatever.

You have the rights to start your own " no zerk" party as other people have the rights to start their “only zerk” party and there is no way that the “only zerk” party is going to ruin your game experience if you don’t play with them.

Do you want to clear dungeons in less than 10 minutes or you want to play dire staff necro? You can’t have both , don’t blame it on dps players if you can’t clear a dungeons under 10 minutes that was your own choice and your own fault.

If there was no “dps” then the setup that would give the most dps of the non-dps would still be the dps…it is inevitable.

I guess a better way to put it would be, imagine if everyone was zerker gear by default, then you get to choose a secondary “role” stat.

colesy.8490:

Astralporing.1957:

colesy.8490:

No it’s not. The point of berserker gear is risk vs. reward

And the current mechanics make it so the risk is the same for everyone, but the reward is greater for zerkers. Something’s obviously not right.

Zerker guardian gets one-shotted by Lupicus, PVT guardian can take two hits.

And the difference is academic on anything less than a direct LAN connection to the server.

digiowl.9620:

colesy.8490:

Astralporing.1957:

colesy.8490:

No it’s not. The point of berserker gear is risk vs. reward

And the current mechanics make it so the risk is the same for everyone, but the reward is greater for zerkers. Something’s obviously not right.

Zerker guardian gets one-shotted by Lupicus, PVT guardian can take two hits.

And the difference is academic on anything less than a direct LAN connection to the server.

You mean to say that the difference between one hit and two hits at lupi has to do with your internet?!? LOL no. I normally do arah on warrior but have now started to take my zerker guard which has about 1/2 the health of my warrior and can only take one hit (as in i can get hit once but then i have a very measly amount of health left unless its a swipe then im dead) while my warrior can take two. Its alot harder when i make a mistake and its definitely alot harder than a pvt guard.

oh and my internet connection is pretty bad, im just used to lupicus.

Ahlen.7591:

RyuDragnier.9476:

This sadly would never happen. Only way I can really see a fix to the zerker nature of people is to either eliminate the zerker armor (never gonna happen), or give the mobs undodgeable attacks that scale with that particular player’s Power and Precision, with Toughness and Vitality preventing the brunt of the attack. Full zerker spec? Grats, you’ll be downed in 1-2 hits. Tank spec? It’ll take 7-8 hits.

This too will probably never happen though. But we do need something to fix the zerker mindset. Nothing short of giving mobs some undodgeable attacks or nerfing the zerker builds will do this, I’m afraid.

And none of this should ever happen.

Why would your opinions on how it should be played be more important than zerker peoples opinions? We’re basically trading an optional playstyle for a FORCED PLAYSTYLE.

You’re trying to dictate how zerker players play worse than zerker players dictate to others – because at least the zerk people aren’t trying to design you out of the game.

I agree it’s a totally fine set, and it shouldn’t be forced out to foster other builds (zerk lovers should also play how they want) BUT many, many players faithful to the Berserker credo do talk down a LOT on other players for not playing their “superior” way. That is a shame, for there’s no reason ANYONE should be insulted or deemed a “bad”/noob JUST because they don’t go full offense (the training-wheels gear idea as far as I know a community invention-I don’t know any official statement from ANet claiming that Berserker’s gear is the ultimate way to play PvE GW2, that everyone should aspire to, and that every other stat combo was meant for WvW.)

Feel great about your zerky achievements, but there’s no reason that makes you superior than non-zerk characters, regardless of maths, spreadsheets, or YouTube videos-not everybody plays the game to be the “biggest, baddest” DPSer, and they are not necessarily selfish for not going PvE meta with you.

If you dislike their choice, just don’t play with them, but why the insults? This is very much akin to someone studying fine arts and another calling that an “useless” degree just because it’s not the career “meta” of sorts. Sure it may not be the most cost effective vocation, but that is his/her life choice to make, and who are we to say he/she is wrong for not going “all profit” (a la DPS).

Of course I am not advocating zerk only groups having to play with people who don’t care about that mindset, but rather pointing out how silly, inappropriate, and ultimately unnecessary it is to judge/insult/belittle a person (such as calling them “bads”/“casual carebears” and the silly like) based on the gear he/she prefers to use in the game-be it “zerk”, Soldier’s, Carrion’s, or anything else.

I myself never insult players in Berserker’s gear, because they are very well entitled to that playstyle-and so does every other player have the right to any other different playstyle, even if supposedly not “optimal”, not meta, etc.

No offense intended, I respect all playstyles even when I disagree with them. Feel free to disagree, but not free to insult because you may disagree.

I don’t think any zerker oriented players are trying to talk down or insult non-zerkers players. Much of it is just trying to correct a wrong perception, albeit sometimes coming off as rude.

When a non-zerker said they can finish the dungeon just as fast > that’s a lie. When you say you can bearbow or cleric staff your way and contribute just as much > also a lie.

Yenn.9185:

I don’t think any zerker oriented players are trying to talk down or insult non-zerkers players. Much of it is just trying to correct a wrong perception, albeit sometimes coming off as rude.

When a non-zerker said they can finish the dungeon just as fast > that’s a lie. When you say you can bearbow or cleric staff your way and contribute just as much > also a lie.

It’s a playstyle, not a lie. Of course, they shouldn’t tell you their playstyle is superior either. But it’s what they like, and they can be pretty good with it-even if what you define as “good” may be different.

In short, I know these types of players are not compatible, but the zrk gospel is tiresome when the game can actually be approached in many other ways other than full-DPS. No one should force zerk just because it’s effective, much less bully others as seen in some corners of this forum.

Even “bearbows” have the right to exist, really (don’t play with them if you hate them, but do post it on your LFG so they know to avoid you.) I don’t like bears as much (usually use my Melandru’s Stalker for the ever useful might roar) but feel the bear-hate is unwarranted… what if the player just likes his/her bears for reasons other than max efficiency?

And that is the crux of the matter-not all players should play GW2 with “max efficiency” in mind. We don’t get to decide how people should have fun-and that may very well be with the “baddest of the bad” build according to some elitist or meta.

It is correct to say that Cleric’s is perhaps not the most efficient gear for super fast Dungeon runs. However, it’s wrong to say that it’s playing GW2 “wrong”-that in short is a pretty short-sighted, intolerant, and arrogant thing to say.

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

champ.7021:

oh and my internet connection is pretty bad, im just used to lupicus.

And in the end, that is what keeping you alive. Not being able to take one hit extra.

Now if a proper PVT could take 5+ hits, then it would get interesting. But one extra hit do not really improve the margin for error much.

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

digiowl.9620:

And in the end, that is what keeping you alive. Not being able to take one hit extra.

Now if a proper PVT could take 5+ hits, then it would get interesting. But one extra hit do not really improve the margin for error much.

Tanky guardian can facetank full duration fo necrid trap and still be alive, that’s 5’hits. Glass guardian goes down on the 2nd hit.

edit: this kitten filter filters 5’hits >.<

haviz.1340:

digiowl.9620:

And in the end, that is what keeping you alive. Not being able to take one hit extra.

Now if a proper PVT could take 5+ hits, then it would get interesting. But one extra hit do not really improve the margin for error much.

Tanky guardian can facetank full duration fo necrid trap and still be alive, that’s kittens. Glass guardian goes down on the 2nd hit.

At the start of the game, I had a full clerics guardian. Used to kite lupicus around the room with my scepter/shield, could take about 5 bubbles before I finally died. Was amazing.

These days…. one bubble with no stability/renewed focus and it’s RIP in peace

Anyway, since we’re on the train of making terrible suggestions:

I propose that the more toughness/vitality/healing power you have, the less endurance regen you have, as to balance out your innate ability to facetank things.

Power/precision/crit damage will all give you extra endurance regen, as to balance out your inability to facetank things.

Sounds good.

I like that idea Cookie , that means my thief which has 10k hp
And 1,9k armor will be able to ENDLESSLY dodge like
A true baws .

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

These days…. one bubble with no stability/renewed focus and it’s RIP in peace

The easiest solution is to simply reduce mob hp and damage output so that players don’t feel like they need to maximize damage in order to play most efficiently (ie make it so that players can still kill stuff quickly even if they don’t focus on doing the most damage possible). That also requires severely nerfing champion damage and hp (and getting rid of autotargeting ranged champions who shoot magical homing bullets).

People say “the solution is…” as if they were solving an actual problem. There is no problem. The game is balanced as it is. If you can’t dodge or dont know the encounters run tankier gear. The more you know the encounters, the more dps you can bring.

Want to know what this is really about? This is about guys who have full clerics guardians or celestial rangers being told by someone that they “are bad” and getting their feelers hurt. They have committed to their gear choice by investing all their money into it, and then they are told that makes them a bad player. The natural reaction to that is to get defensive, or view the ‘zerker elitist’ mentality as a “problem” that they have to “solve.”

Even worse to ‘solving" a problem that doesn’t exist, if offering a solution that is worse than the problem you claim is there.
Isn’t it contradictory to force people into defensive builds due to limited build options?
Isn’t that worse than what you’re claiming?
Noone forces anyone to wear full berserker due to limited available sets. As has been said in this topic, its a mindset and it has rewards for someone who is able to use it. Someone who doesn’t pays the price with being dead. Its fine as it is.

Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!

Stop trying to turn this game into WoW / boring spank n tank gear = success mmo.

These people are probably ones that pug a lot and complain why they get kicked when the lfg description says “zerks only”. Also mostly people who have no actual sense of combat or training at least.

logic: more damage = faster kill time.

rather than make dps useless (<—this just sounds dumb) why not improve combos since most of them aren’t very effective on PvE group play. Also, improve the efficacy of conditions as a source of damage on PvE.

MrRuin.9740:

Even worse to ‘solving" a problem that doesn’t exist, if offering a solution that is worse than the problem you claim is there.
Isn’t it contradictory to force people into defensive builds due to limited build options?
Isn’t that worse than what you’re claiming?
Noone forces anyone to wear full berserker due to limited available sets. As has been said in this topic, its a mindset and it has rewards for someone who is able to use it. Someone who doesn’t pays the price with being dead. Its fine as it is.

Whiff x10 ?

haviz.1340:

digiowl.9620:

And in the end, that is what keeping you alive. Not being able to take one hit extra.

Now if a proper PVT could take 5+ hits, then it would get interesting. But one extra hit do not really improve the margin for error much.

Tanky guardian can facetank full duration fo necrid trap and still be alive, that’s 5’hits. Glass guardian goes down on the 2nd hit.

edit: this kitten filter filters 5’hits >.<

Champ sadly didn’t specify what he could take two his from with one profession/build, and one hit with another. But i suspect it was not necrid trap and more likely one of the single hit attacks.

logosloki.3958:

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

Uh, no. Make it so fully statting for dodges gives you about the same dodge capability as you have now. Or come up with other solutions. Use your imagination.

It should be balanced around risk vs. reward. And in PvE with a Boss only attacking every 3+ seconds and a dodge ready at the same time there is no risk for berserker builds and the best possible reward (they are fast).

If bosses would attack faster (lets say every second but with lower damage) every build has to eat at least some damage. Maybe some builds are able to tank the damage completely, but then their damage output is small → lower reward because it takes longer.

This would make berserker builds high risk high reward and not the same risk than everyone else and highest reward possible.

The suggestions of the TO wont help here, its the poor boss mechaniks that makes the life in PvE that easy. Compared to PvP we have fast attacks that cant all be dodged. So its high risk vs high reward (damage).

digiowl.9620:

Champ sadly didn’t specify what he could take two his from with one profession/build, and one hit with another. But i suspect it was not necrid trap and more likely one of the single hit attacks.

Its single hits have a recharge, it will not use it in succession and its projectiles are avoidable just by moving in random patterns, no dodging required.

But I agree that it’s ridiculous, glass cannon should not be instagibbed.

whyme.3281:

It should be balanced around risk vs. reward. And in PvE with a Boss only attacking every 3+ seconds and a dodge ready at the same time there is no risk for berserker builds and the best possible reward (they are fast).

If bosses would attack faster (lets say every second but with lower damage) every build has to eat at least some damage. Maybe some builds are able to tank the damage completely, but then their damage output is small -> lower reward because it takes longer.

This would make berserker builds high risk high reward and not the same risk than everyone else and highest reward possible.

The suggestions of the TO wont help here, its the poor boss mechaniks that makes the life in PvE that easy. Compared to PvP we have fast attacks that cant all be dodged. So its high risk vs high reward (damage).

Even with bosses attacking that slow – players still get downed. Zerker is fine – you need good coordination on both your part and your team to succeed!

They only die, because they failed their dodge, but there is no risk if you know how to dodge. And if you dont know how to dodge, the armor you have has nearly no impact.

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

Uh, no. Make it so fully statting for dodges gives you about the same dodge capability as you have now. Or come up with other solutions. Use your imagination.

So where is this flat cap reached or where is the point on diminished returns make dodge capabilities the same as current? Rare stat budget? Exotic? Ascended? Remember, ascended weapons and accessories are in the game right now and ascended armour will not be too far away. If you set the cap/returns plateau too high then you get an even larger elitist effect since people wont take certain because they don’t have dodge cap and other players will opt out of content that requires dodging in favour of the easier content – this effect of players mass opting out of content because of mechanical decisions, real or perceived, can be observed with tequatl. If you set the cap/returns too low a stat then all that will happen is people will stat up to the point where diminished returns make it infeasible or in the case of a flat cap they’ll just hit it and stack zerker or equivalent.

It doesn’t solve anything. In fact, it would make the problem even worse as now the players with the same current dodge also have, depending on how you derive dodge high vitality, toughness, healing, other stat or some complex relation between the three. The food and oil/stone/whatever buffs would need to be reworked since there are %defense to offense conversion buffs which, if not modified would leave “elite” players with a definite advantage in terms of raw power vs defensive capability. And finally, one mesmer, one guardian and three warriors would still be the group du jour as this group already mechanically covers for each other and responds the best to bunkering.

There are probably things I have left out and things I may not have explained better than I could of to be honest but, this is what I thought up when I made the comments, if you had used your imagination you might of come across some of these points and insights.

logosloki.3958:

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

Uh, no. Make it so fully statting for dodges gives you about the same dodge capability as you have now. Or come up with other solutions. Use your imagination.

So where is this flat cap reached or where is the point on diminished returns make dodge capabilities the same as current? Rare stat budget? Exotic? Ascended? Remember, ascended weapons and accessories are in the game right now and ascended armour will not be too far away. If you set the cap/returns plateau too high then you get an even larger elitist effect since people wont take certain because they don’t have dodge cap and other players will opt out of content that requires dodging in favour of the easier content – this effect of players mass opting out of content because of mechanical decisions, real or perceived, can be observed with tequatl. If you set the cap/returns too low a stat then all that will happen is people will stat up to the point where diminished returns make it infeasible or in the case of a flat cap they’ll just hit it and stack zerker or equivalent.

It doesn’t solve anything. In fact, it would make the problem even worse as now the players with the same current dodge also have, depending on how you derive dodge high vitality, toughness, healing, other stat or some complex relation between the three. The food and oil/stone/whatever buffs would need to be reworked since there are %defense to offense conversion buffs which, if not modified would leave “elite” players with a definite advantage in terms of raw power vs defensive capability. And finally, one mesmer, one guardian and three warriors would still be the group du jour as this group already mechanically covers for each other and responds the best to bunkering.

There are probably things I have left out and things I may not have explained better than I could of to be honest but, this is what I thought up when I made the comments, if you had used your imagination you might of come across some of these points and insights.

So you can’t immediately make the math work and your speculative fears scare you, so the idea could never work ever. Right.

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

Uh, no. Make it so fully statting for dodges gives you about the same dodge capability as you have now. Or come up with other solutions. Use your imagination.

So where is this flat cap reached or where is the point on diminished returns make dodge capabilities the same as current? Rare stat budget? Exotic? Ascended? Remember, ascended weapons and accessories are in the game right now and ascended armour will not be too far away. If you set the cap/returns plateau too high then you get an even larger elitist effect since people wont take certain because they don’t have dodge cap and other players will opt out of content that requires dodging in favour of the easier content – this effect of players mass opting out of content because of mechanical decisions, real or perceived, can be observed with tequatl. If you set the cap/returns too low a stat then all that will happen is people will stat up to the point where diminished returns make it infeasible or in the case of a flat cap they’ll just hit it and stack zerker or equivalent.

It doesn’t solve anything. In fact, it would make the problem even worse as now the players with the same current dodge also have, depending on how you derive dodge high vitality, toughness, healing, other stat or some complex relation between the three. The food and oil/stone/whatever buffs would need to be reworked since there are %defense to offense conversion buffs which, if not modified would leave “elite” players with a definite advantage in terms of raw power vs defensive capability. And finally, one mesmer, one guardian and three warriors would still be the group du jour as this group already mechanically covers for each other and responds the best to bunkering.

There are probably things I have left out and things I may not have explained better than I could of to be honest but, this is what I thought up when I made the comments, if you had used your imagination you might of come across some of these points and insights.

So you can’t immediately make the math work and your speculative fears scare you, so the idea could never work ever. Right.

Not that the idea wont work, but that the idea doesn’t change anything for the general populace, in fact, the idea may make them worse off. The one sentence quip given didn’t even address the simplest of the points made: Cap or Diminishing Returns, at what quality of gear is this budgeted out on and how is dodge calculated? Is it by one stat, by a ratio of defensive stats; is it a special stat: like boon duration and critical damage; how food buffs interact with dodge, does this mean that vigor needs to be reworked?

logosloki.3958:

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

aliksyian.7642:

logosloki.3958:

Astralporing.1957:

aliksyian.7642:

Tie endurance to a stat that isn’t on berserkers gear. Maybe vitality, maybe something new. Doesn’t matter. Now people who are in full berserker can’t dodge much at all.

Vitality, toughness and healing power. So, full bunkers could dodge the best, hybrids a bit worse, and zerkers would have to be very careful not to waste their dodges on something that wouldn’t kill them outright.

It’s actually a pretty neat idea.

So now, instead of three warriors, one mesmer and one guardian who can be switched out for a warrior for the ultimate dream team in dungeoneering, you have three zerk warriors, one zerk mesmer and one bunker guardian who will be able to heal the group by flipping around with an insane dodge metre and probably all of the vigor in the world to recharge it.

If this were to were somehow to happen I would roll an asura guardian. I would name her xxXYodaXxx.

Edit: I have the female asura guardian already to go now – named Xxxyodaxxx since the game seems to sensibly have rules for naming your character.

Uh, no. Make it so fully statting for dodges gives you about the same dodge capability as you have now. Or come up with other solutions. Use your imagination.

So where is this flat cap reached or where is the point on diminished returns make dodge capabilities the same as current? Rare stat budget? Exotic? Ascended? Remember, ascended weapons and accessories are in the game right now and ascended armour will not be too far away. If you set the cap/returns plateau too high then you get an even larger elitist effect since people wont take certain because they don’t have dodge cap and other players will opt out of content that requires dodging in favour of the easier content – this effect of players mass opting out of content because of mechanical decisions, real or perceived, can be observed with tequatl. If you set the cap/returns too low a stat then all that will happen is people will stat up to the point where diminished returns make it infeasible or in the case of a flat cap they’ll just hit it and stack zerker or equivalent.

It doesn’t solve anything. In fact, it would make the problem even worse as now the players with the same current dodge also have, depending on how you derive dodge high vitality, toughness, healing, other stat or some complex relation between the three. The food and oil/stone/whatever buffs would need to be reworked since there are %defense to offense conversion buffs which, if not modified would leave “elite” players with a definite advantage in terms of raw power vs defensive capability. And finally, one mesmer, one guardian and three warriors would still be the group du jour as this group already mechanically covers for each other and responds the best to bunkering.

There are probably things I have left out and things I may not have explained better than I could of to be honest but, this is what I thought up when I made the comments, if you had used your imagination you might of come across some of these points and insights.

So you can’t immediately make the math work and your speculative fears scare you, so the idea could never work ever. Right.

Not that the idea wont work, but that the idea doesn’t change anything for the general populace, in fact, the idea may make them worse off. The one sentence quip given didn’t even address the simplest of the points made: Cap or Diminishing Returns, at what quality of gear is this budgeted out on and how is dodge calculated? Is it by one stat, by a ratio of defensive stats; is it a special stat: like boon duration and critical damage; how food buffs interact with dodge, does this mean that vigor needs to be reworked?

I haven’t put the effort in to figure out all the math, and I’m not going to because it won’t be easy, and anet isn’t going to use my work anyway. You may be right in that there are probably more bad ways to do it than good ways. But I think something could be done with endurance to make things other than berserker more important.

Red Falcon.8257:

Problem is, CC, conditions and bunker (vit+def) are useless in PvE.
CC is hard countered by defiant, Conditions by 25cap, bunker by one-shot mechanics.

DPS gear is not the problem, the problem is other specs simply do not work in PvE.

I agree as of now CC does nothing, Conditions just put another icon on a boss and seriously do very little, they are just there for show imo..

I’d love to see how long it would take to kill these bosses with conditions alone, the are so useless..

Dante.1508:

Red Falcon.8257:

Problem is, CC, conditions and bunker (vit+def) are useless in PvE.
CC is hard countered by defiant, Conditions by 25cap, bunker by one-shot mechanics.

DPS gear is not the problem, the problem is other specs simply do not work in PvE.

I agree as of now CC does nothing, Conditions just put another icon on a boss and seriously do very little, they are just there for show imo..

I’d love to see how long it would take to kill these bosses with conditions alone, the are so useless..

They need to pull off what most MMOs do, where it has multiple sources of everything counted on an enemy. For example, 5 players use burn on a boss, it’s not stacking, it’s 5 different burns activating at the same time on him. Same with every condition. For dungeons, it’s easy to just do this and measure how the bosses are effected by all of it.

For open World PvE, I’d say a hard ‘different’ cap of each type to 10 different sources of each thing. For example, 50 players hitting the boss? Only 10 different stacks of each condition will be counted on the boss, with the others just doing direct damage for what they would have done normally if not cured. That’s IF they could pull it off.

Yenn.9185:

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

We play to have fun, a select few hardcores play to be efficient, but most gamers don’t give a flying kitten if they are efficient or not, as long as they are having fun who cares.

The majority are just happy to be in there enjoying themselves, they don’t care how fast or slow something takes..

There is no right play style, but Zerker at this time is the only real effective play style, i for one would like to see a trinity of sorts dps/control/support not just faceroll dps and non existent rest..

I don’t even hate tank healer dps, it has issues agreed but so does this what we have now..

Dante.1508:

Yenn.9185:

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

We play to have fun, a select few hardcores play to be efficient, but most gamers don’t give a flying kitten if they are efficient or not, as long as they are having fun who cares.

The majority are just happy to be in there enjoying themselves, they don’t care how fast or slow something takes..

There is no right play style, but Zerker at this time is the only real effective play style, i for one would like to see a trinity of sorts dps/control/support not just faceroll dps and non existent rest..

I don’t even hate tank healer dps, it has issues agreed but so does this what we have now..

I disagree. When we play, we have a goal in mind, something to aim for. And in order to achieve that goal we have to put some effort in as not everything is given (even as Anet said there’s no grind). Because players wanted to achieve that goal in as little wasted time as possible, we aim for efficiency, and yes the majority play this way. hint: farming

Of course this may not be the case for new players as they’re still learning the game, or those that have an easily achievable goal.

Yenn.9185:

Dante.1508:

Yenn.9185:

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

We play to have fun, a select few hardcores play to be efficient, but most gamers don’t give a flying kitten if they are efficient or not, as long as they are having fun who cares.

The majority are just happy to be in there enjoying themselves, they don’t care how fast or slow something takes..

There is no right play style, but Zerker at this time is the only real effective play style, i for one would like to see a trinity of sorts dps/control/support not just faceroll dps and non existent rest..

I don’t even hate tank healer dps, it has issues agreed but so does this what we have now..

I disagree. When we play, we have a goal in mind, something to aim for. And in order to achieve that goal we have to put some effort in as not everything is given (even as Anet said there’s no grind). Because players wanted to achieve that goal in as little wasted time as possible, we aim for efficiency, and yes the majority play this way. hint: farming

Of course this may not be the case for new players as they’re still learning the game, or those that have an easily achievable goal.

That only really applies to people who are chasing external goals. Maybe that’s most people. There are probably at least some people like me with goals like “I want to do all the dungeons with every class”, and that doesn’t encourage speed running or max efficiency.

Rieselle.5079:

They need to have more encounters that disadvantage pure dps.

For example, enemies that reflect damage but can be one-shotted by an attack under the right situation.

Or enemies that you need to constantly attack to make a time limit tick down until they self destruct.

These sorts of mechanics means that parties that focus on damage won’t perform as effectively in these encounters as other kinda of builds.

Well, ooze and lava thingy on TA new dungeon works like this in a way. But it requires thinking and timing and strategy and those sort of stuff so most players avoid it like the plague. They want mobs and bosses to drop fast and get shinies. That’s all there is to it.

Dante.1508:

I agree as of now CC does nothing, Conditions just put another icon on a boss

Sounds like someone who hasn’t done fractals over level 48.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dante.1508:

I agree as of now CC does nothing, Conditions just put another icon on a boss

Sounds like someone who hasn’t done fractals over level 48.

But why the kitten to we have to go all the way beyond F48 before nearly 2/3 of most professions become useful?!

digiowl.9620:

But why the kitten to we have to go all the way beyond F48 before nearly 2/3 of most professions become useful?!

Good question.

I’d like to remind everyone in this thread of my signature…

Dante.1508:

Yenn.9185:

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

We play to have fun, a select few hardcores play to be efficient, but most gamers don’t give a flying kitten if they are efficient or not, as long as they are having fun who cares.

The majority are just happy to be in there enjoying themselves, they don’t care how fast or slow something takes..

There is no right play style, but Zerker at this time is the only real effective play style, i for one would like to see a trinity of sorts dps/control/support not just faceroll dps and non existent rest..

I don’t even hate tank healer dps, it has issues agreed but so does this what we have now..

It’s funny how many people forget that some people actually get their fun out of being efficient. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean others don’t.

As for Zerker being the only real effective playstyle, that’s just plain wrong. You can clear dungeons with any team setup, you’re just going to take longer to do so.

Bright.9160:

Dante.1508:

Yenn.9185:

It’s the contribution to the party that is a lie. When you’re on bearbow, what do you give to the party? Not dps nor support. There is no wrong way to play the game, but there’s an efficient one. I understand we all don’t play for efficiency, and that’s fine.

But please, humor me that the majority doesn’t want a fast run. Hence, the “exp,” and “zerkers” that the LFG tool is littered with.

We play to have fun, a select few hardcores play to be efficient, but most gamers don’t give a flying kitten if they are efficient or not, as long as they are having fun who cares.

The majority are just happy to be in there enjoying themselves, they don’t care how fast or slow something takes..

There is no right play style, but Zerker at this time is the only real effective play style, i for one would like to see a trinity of sorts dps/control/support not just faceroll dps and non existent rest..

I don’t even hate tank healer dps, it has issues agreed but so does this what we have now..

It’s funny how many people forget that some people actually get their fun out of being efficient. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean others don’t.

As for Zerker being the only real effective playstyle, that’s just plain wrong. You can clear dungeons with any team setup, you’re just going to take longer to do so.

It takes longer yes, but it is not easier/saver to play anything else than berserker.

There is nothing wrong with beeing most efficient with berserker gear, but it should be more risky than defensive stats and that isnt the case in PvE. so risk vs reward is drifting apart with berserker gear. Don’t get me wrong, its not the fault of berserker gear, its the dodge mechanic and the slow attacks of bosses, that makes life that easy for every build.

There’s nothing wrong with Zerker gear. This is coming from someone who has it only on one character and plays mostly condition or support builds on my mains. The problem is in PVE monster mechanics. The fact is there are many bunker and support builds in WvW/PvP that can completely shut down Zerker. Why is that?

Because firstly players constantly use boons, CC, conditions, weakness and dodge. My question is, why is it that 99% of enemies in this game do not use boons, CC, weakness and evade mechanics? Now it may be because of server/AI/resource restraints, similar to how condition caps keep conditions ticks from straining servers too much. However, more usage of actual combat mechanics and abilities in this game would go along way in curing the game of Zerker crazyness.

The other thing they can do, which they have started with the implementation of places like TA aether path, is make dungeons non-skippable and more build variety friendly.

The last thing is they could make encounters that are designed for conditions/support/stripping builds rather than full DPS. This sort of goes hand in hand with my first point, but there’s so many bosses, especially “object ones,” that completely nullify those builds. To a certain extent they effect zerker too, but do not completely elimiate their DPS/effectiveness.

Leave Zerker gear in. Make enemy encounters in PvE more difficult/nuanced for them and easier for other builds to do.

How about this,

Remember the frog king from SAB 1? Hell just all of SAB, there are no real crits or dps. Just landing hits.

Now what if fights revolved around landing solid hits and not every hit doing damage and trying to do the most damage per a hit?

What if a boss had 10 hit points. But could only be hit if you make it to the “dizzy” phase.

This boss attacks players by rushing at them and knocking them down, then spinning in place. The players also only have something to the effect of 5 HP, and the boss attack does 1 hit per a second for a total of 5 while spinning (thus killing a player).

The only way to survive is to time dodges, immobilize the boss so he can’t run at you, or utilize blocks/blinds so his attacks miss.

Group heals also recover 1 hp to surrounding allies on a moderate cooldown, self heals replenish life to full but on a long cooldown.

After the boss runs around and does this 5 times he becomes dizzy for 2 seconds, at which point the players have a chance to attack. If the players don’t land 10 hits then the boss continues up with the invulnerable phase again.

For every hit the boss lands on players, he heals 1 hp back.

Room for some error, but still have to be on your toes, yet now you don’t have to worry about doing the most dps possible…just have to land a hit at the right time.

Now the game is all about CC and support.

Balekai.6083:

The other thing they can do, which they have started with the implementation of places like TA aether path, is make dungeons non-skippable and more build variety friendly.

The last thing is they could make encounters that are designed for conditions/support/stripping builds rather than full DPS. This sort of goes hand in hand with my first point, but there’s so many bosses, especially “object ones,” that completely nullify those builds. To a certain extent they effect zerker too, but do not completely elimiate their DPS/effectiveness.

Leave Zerker gear in. Make enemy encounters in PvE more difficult/nuanced for them and easier for other builds to do.

Yeah, I heard the new TA dungeon is pretty great. So great even that I can’t find a single one of my friends (and I’m in 2 dungeon guilds) to run it with me, because I wasn’t online during the release week, and everyone basically says “it was fun to do it once, and I can’t be f***ed to do it again because it was so pointlessly long”.

That’s also why a lot of us hate AC p3 or Grenth, because of the pointless timegating. There is nothing fun about making a certain event (especially in dungeons) take a set amount of time without the possibility to speed it up.

CMF.5461:

How about this,

Remember the frog king from SAB 1? Hell just all of SAB, there are no real crits or dps. Just landing hits.

Now what if fights revolved around landing solid hits and not every hit doing damage and trying to do the most damage per a hit?

What if a boss had 10 hit points. But could only be hit if you make it to the “dizzy” phase.

This boss attacks players by rushing at them and knocking them down, then spinning in place. The players also only have something to the effect of 5 HP, and the boss attack does 1 hit per a second for a total of 5 while spinning (thus killing a player).

The only way to survive is to time dodges, immobilize the boss so he can’t run at you, or utilize blocks/blinds so his attacks miss.

Group heals also recover 1 hp to surrounding allies on a moderate cooldown, self heals replenish life to full but on a long cooldown.

After the boss runs around and does this 5 times he becomes dizzy for 2 seconds, at which point the players have a chance to attack. If the players don’t land 10 hits then the boss continues up with the invulnerable phase again.

For every hit the boss lands on players, he heals 1 hp back.

Room for some error, but still have to be on your toes, yet now you don’t have to worry about doing the most dps possible…just have to land a hit at the right time.

Now the game is all about CC and support.

1980 called, they want their game concept back.

The reasons they won’t do something like this are pretty varied:

• Reworking their entire game

• People don’t like only having 10 hp, as opposed to say, 14,042 hp

• People like big numbers instead of 1’s and 0’s

• Balance issues

• The idea being pretty bad

• The fact that it’s a terrible solution to a problem that exists mostly in disgruntled people’s heads

Bright.9160:

As for Zerker being the only real effective playstyle, that’s just plain wrong. You can clear dungeons with any team setup, you’re just going to take longer to do so.

You have just contradicted yourself here. If other setups take longer, then they are not equally effective, obviously.

Oh wow, such hate.

Your criticism pretty much said:

• Old idea from an era of games that were harder than today….ok, I guess that’s a compliment?

• Too hard to do
  I don’t ever think it would happen due to the complete revamp of the game, but introducing aspects of this and adapting it to the current game…i.e. more control oriented combat…would be nice.
  They had pretty much this with the frog king fight where you threw gem shards into it’s mouth and then you could spam attacks on it…beyond that you had to learn how to avoid and survive

• You like meaningless inflation of numbers
  I say 5hp to get the idea across, but in essence think of it like a zelda heart…you can only take so many hits before you die….but you didn’t concentrate on the “numbers”

• previous bullet

• Balance issues (not fleshed out idea, but was trying to capture the idea of no dps and more action/skill oriented combat, so I know it needs more thought)

• you don’t like it

• see previous bullet and add more insults.

Please try to be constructive and bring more reasons why you don’t like it other than “you don’t like it”.

Astralporing.1957:

Bright.9160:

As for Zerker being the only real effective playstyle, that’s just plain wrong. You can clear dungeons with any team setup, you’re just going to take longer to do so.

You have just contradicted yourself here. If other setups take longer, then they are not equally effective, obviously.

I never contradicted myself. I never said that it would be equally effective. I only said that it’s not the only real effective way of doing it.

If the goal is to complete a dungeon and a team is able to do it using a setup that is not made out of zerker builds, it means their team was effective. They weren’t as effective as organized zerker teams, but they still got to their goal.

CMF.5461:

snip

I like how I had 6 bullet points, and you tried to ridicule them, but ended up using 7.

As for my points… I don’t think Anet would like to rework their entire game design just to please a couple of stubborn children that want to force their way of playing onto other people just because they don’t like how the other people play the game, and how they’re better and more efficient than themselves.

As for the big numbers. I never said I like big numbers, I said people like big numbers. That’s also one of the reasons why the healthpools got changed so drastically from GW1. The other one was balance. In GW1, the highest base hp you usually got was around 600hp, and most builds were around 500-ish, depending on runes. Some down to 375, but that was rare. They upped the health pools because it was a nightmare to balance around a 500-600 hp pool. When they changed skills, a change from 70 to 80 damage could end up being OP, so they needed to tweak the skills very carefully. That’s why in GW2, it’s different, because it’s easier to balance around big numbers than around slow numbers.

As for people liking to see bigger numbers than 1 and 0, I’m sorry that that’s human psychology. If you’ve got problems with that… Complain to whoever you like complaining to with life issues.

As for old games being harder, I know, I like harder games too. Unfortunately, many people don’t. And Anet likes the many people that don’t like hard games, and makes this game just for them.

Slightly better feedback, yet you still can’t help but add personal insults in there and act like the amazing internet dude.

I completely understand what you mean about changing small numbers result in huge impacts because there is less room to push and pull between the synergies in the game. That said, if there were no “stats” you wouldn’t have numbers to push and pull between, after that you would just have skills which landed hits, control, or support abilities.

Now bringing it back to reality, you can still do similar aspects of what I suggested with the current system. The boss can now hit for 10,000 damage (no auto attack or does little to no damage, maybe 100-500 damage or just acts as pushbacks and interrupts) but only has about 100,000 health himself.

He is invulnerable till dizzy phase, and each attack that lands heals for about 5,000.

Players still have the stat spread that they have today, so low health tiers only have about 10,000-15,000 health, mid tier has 15,000-20,000, and high tier has 20,000-25,000 (probably average health not counting vitality stacking).

Why play low health tier? Well now game balance comes into play, low tier should either be highly survivable via active gameplay or do more damage than the other tiers could do.

Mid tier is the balanced equation and can go for more survival or more damage, but sacrifices more if they budge for the mid point of balance.

High tier has a more comfortable time going full damage and surviving, but they can stack on survival abilities and be the “tankiest” of classes.

Of course this is not how the game plays now, but it was the original profession concepts that were described to us…..this is not a problem with my idea but a problem with the current game.

Damage output of players should be around 5,000-10,000 in a attack or combo, but higher damaging abilities are on longer cooldowns, while control abilities are on a moderate cooldown. Heal abilities could be on a very short cooldown (integrate healing into regular attacks) only if they heal for very little and act as fillers to survive if done right, but can’t top out life with ease.

That is all PvE in a single boss fight mechanic……..add in multiple mobs, that die in 2 or 3 hits, but can also kill the players in 2 or 3 hits. Now AE abilities are on long cooldowns, and you have to either group up to layer AE to kill the horde of mobs before they kill you via sheer numbers, or you manage mobility and damage mitigation/evades to survive long enough to AE again.

Put PvP in the mix and you have a potentially devastating mix that could seem unbalancing, but if the 1-shot kills are highly telegraphed and block/evasion mechanics are frequent enough to use but not available to spam, you have reactionary gameplay at a slower pace where the players are trying to find gaps to land hits or force the player to blow abilities and then land the death blow when done right, but if not played right insta death.

Again, what I am asking for is way out of left field and I know it won’t happen…a softer version of this could happen if they up defensive and control abilities to happen much more frequently, and reduce the spam of damaging abilities. After that they have to change PvE content to be more about surviving to land your hits, and not about doing as many hits as possible.