Guild Wars 2

A casual player isn’t someone who logs in for fun every now and then and expects to be able to jump into end game content with their hardcore friends. He doesn’t want to be catered to (pitied) like that.

A casual player is a just hardcore player who doesn’t have as much time. He wants what the hardcore player wants – to be a worthwhile. He wants to be a valuable addition to any party whether it’s a dungeon, regular PvE, or in WvW. He understands that it will take him longer, but he’ll get there eventually and be on par with the hardcore player in terms of value to others. He doesn’t mind if you occasionally raise the level of “best gear” that let’s the hardcore player increase the gap between them.

But you have to be careful ANet. If you move the gear treadmill too quickly he’s going to see that either 1) he will never be able to reach parity with the hardcore player at any point in time or 2) every time he does, you raise the standard of gear and he has to grind it out all over again.

ANet, two things make me think you’re going to handle this better than the designers behind other games who’ve faced similar problems. First, you’ve said you’re going to upgrade Legendaries to stay “best-in-slot” which is good for the casual player because he can rest assured knowing all the farming he’s doing right now isn’t going to be overshadowed by the next patch. Second, you’ve already done a great job making sure your “best-in-slot” items are somewhat on par with your much more accessible second-in-class items, which shows the casual player he can still be a valuable addition to any party even while he’s trying to get the best gear.

I urge you to be careful about how you’re making the game accessible to “casual” players. We don’t want handouts or artificial mechanics that make others include us. We want the time we’ve spent to mean something, just like a hardcore player does. Give the hardcore players the gold medals because they’ve spent more time and they deserve it. Just make sure our silver medals still mean something.

Casual players want what the hardcore player want – to be worthwhile.

This simply isn’t true. While there certainly are people who are great at games but lack the time, a casual player is their namesake – someone who plays casually with little care or thought. Most casual players likely don’t care (or know) about legendary weapons and the Mystic Forge. This update does not affect their enjoyment in the slightest.

However, you do bring up a good point. People who do care about games but lack the time can be severely affected by the upcoming patch. While this isn’t a solution to your problem, have you considered joining a guild with players who would help you achieve your goals? People are really nice in this game.

I find this post to be exactly how I feel towards the game. I would love to be a hardcore player in any game but I simply don’t have the time. This post, 100 times over.

I consider myself casual in every MMO, even though sometimes I invest a LOT of time. I dabble in this and that to various degrees, but not hardcore into any of them. Just enough to have fun.

I consider casual more of a play style than a time commitment. You can play 24/7 and still be a casual fun-loving player.

I’m a casual player too and don’t agree with anything you said.

I very much should be able to jump back into the game and experience the same content as those who play constanty. I think getting things in game should be a matter of skill and not time played, someone shouldn’t have nicer and stronger gear just because they spend more time grinding for it. And I definitely would mind having to play catchup each time a new item tier gets released.

So speak for yourself.

@Geniekid:

Thanks for bringing up this topic. It’s one I’ve been kicking around for a long time, and I always like to see further dialogue about it.

That said, I don’t think the dynamics involved are nearly as cut-and-dry as you’ve presented them.

First of all, I’ve long considered it necessary to distinguish casual player from casual play. However, I’d also say the reverse is true. Hardcore play does not necessarily follow from hardcore player.

For example, if you look at the time I’ve spent in this game, I’m clearly not a casual player. But my preferred play style is decidedly casual. I do not (and will not) “grind” and my tolerance threshold for farming is very low. I take my time with things. Despite the many hours I’ve put in, I’ve only just gotten a character to 80. I am not linear in my approach to content. I sample the entire spectrum of what’s been offered. In short, I’m a gaming omnivore. While my level of investment can run just as deep as any raider’s or PvPer’s, making me a “hardcore player”, I’m a generalist rather than a specialist, “casual” as opposed to “hardcore” in focus.

This is an important distinction, because it’s not simply the casual player ANet claimed to be aiming at with their promotional lead-up to release, but also casual play.

If doing X is a requirement for gaining Y, which in turn allows you to experience Z, and if X never goes away, then everyone, casual and hardcore player alike, can eventually experience Z. It’s just a matter of time. But what ANet implied is that there would be no requirement for X to get to Z, or that the requirement would be trivial/achieved as a matter of course. That’s a promotion of casual play.

The appearance of back peddling from this stance is what has generated a lot of concern. While I certainly share that concern, I’m not quite ready to flip out like a ninja yet. The big question is: can casual play and hardcore play both be accommodated within the context of the same game?

I think they can be. In fact, I think ANet’s already been trying to do just that with PvP. I enjoy PvP. However, for a variety of reasons, it’s not high on my list of draws. So, as a generalist who won’t get deeply invested in that (or any) aspect of the game (as it stands), I want to be able to sample it, enjoy the experience, and then move on to something else.

WvW provided this for me. I jumped in last night for the first time and I had a complete blast. It was easily the best open PvP experience I’ve ever had.

But I can also see where it would just not scratch the itch for a PvP specialist. Luckily, there’s an option for them too with sPvP/tPvP. Even better, I don’t have to ever touch these things. I can completely ignore that facet of the game and it won’t negatively impact my experience one whit. That’s an example of hardcore and casual co-existing peacefully.

I think this type of compartmentalization of content, keeping things optional, is the way to go.

I’m a hardcore player ( as in I play a whole lot ) and I’m against the gear treadmill. I believe players should depend more on skill and less on arbitrary stat advantages. Content should be designed to challenge your abilities rather than to serve as gear checks.

Personally I feel your definition of a casual player is wrong.

Casual doesn’t mean they don’t have time to play. Or that they are hardcore but can’t make the commitment. Casual players are the ones who just play with a relaxed mindset.

They have time, or they don’t have time. It doesn’t generalize who they are. Casuals are the ones who take their time, they don’t rush, they aren’t trying to be the best of the best, they are just trying to enjoy the game at their own pace. They play casually. They don’t care about being rank 1 in PvP, or being top ranking guild, or being the best geared for dungeons/raids. They are the ones who are content with what they have and are happy regardless. They play the game cause they are having fun, not cause they are trying to be hardcore but don’t have the time to commit to it.

But that also doesn’t mean a casual player is bad either. They could be better than most hardcore players. They just don’t care to get involved like that. They are playing for the journey and having a good time.

i have my own deffinition. I am casual because I won’t commit to anything.

I may play for 2 hours straight, but I won’t set aside 2 hours to run a dungeon.

I may joint a guild, but i won’t promiss to be there at 9pm eastern every tuesday and thursday for my scheduled dungeon/wvwvw duities.

I may play in spvp but i won’t study the meta game and search out the best possible character/team builds to compete.

But I play for probably 2 hours on the typical week night and lots more on the weekends.

I put in the same amount of time as many hard core gamers. But I have vastly different priorities than many of them do.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Personally I feel your definition of a casual player is wrong.

Casual doesn’t mean they don’t have time to play. Or that they are hardcore but can’t make the commitment. Casual players are the ones who just play with a relaxed mindset.

They have time, or they don’t have time. It doesn’t generalize who they are. Casuals are the ones who take their time, they don’t rush, they aren’t trying to be the best of the best, they are just trying to enjoy the game at their own pace. They play casually. They don’t care about being rank 1 in PvP, or being top ranking guild, or being the best geared for dungeons/raids. They are the ones who are content with what they have and are happy regardless. They play the game cause they are having fun, not cause they are trying to be hardcore but don’t have the time to commit to it.

But that also doesn’t mean a casual player is bad either. They could be better than most hardcore players. They just don’t care to get involved like that. They are playing for the journey and having a good time.

This sums up why I think there needs to be a distinction between casual player and casual play.

You can have a person who has little time, but is drawn to what’s widely viewed as hardcore content. Such a person would probably be very concerned about the pacing of development.

Conversely, you can have a person who invests oodles of time, but doesn’t care at all about hardcore content. Such a person would likely not want to see the peanut butter and the chocolate fraternizing.

Being a casual player myself , sorry i disagree with what you said.
I have the time and the experience of being a hardcore player, but i got fed up with that game play.

That is why i play GW2 and no longer RIFT.

I play GW2 because of what Anet originally said it was going to be.

It was sold as a game where in your words
" A casual player can log in for fun every now and then and expects to be able to jump into end game content with their hardcore friends. "

Hydrophidian.4319:

Conversely, you can have a person who invests oodles of time, but doesn’t care at all about hardcore content. Such a person would likely not want to see the peanut butter and the chocolate fraternizing.

mmmmmm…reese. now I’m confused. maybe I am hardcore?

PuffballPink.6035:

Casual players want what the hardcore player want – to be worthwhile.

This simply isn’t true. While there certainly are people who are great at games but lack the time, a casual player is their namesake – someone who plays casually with little care or thought. Most casual players likely don’t care (or know) about legendary weapons and the Mystic Forge. This update does not affect their enjoyment in the slightest.

However, you do bring up a good point. People who do care about games but lack the time can be severely affected by the upcoming patch. While this isn’t a solution to your problem, have you considered joining a guild with players who would help you achieve your goals? People are really nice in this game.

I consider myself a casual player. I play ~8-10hrs/week. I know what a Legendary is and am working towards it. I have have full exotics on both of my level 80s and want to be worthwhile in groups, I just don’t have the time to do what other MMOs require for end-game (i.e. raid for hours every day for months to get gear that will be obsolete next patch).

Don’t mean to contradict what you’re saying, but it was just wrong.

Reading this topic I had to laugh at the different definitions of “casual” and “hardcore” in every post.

Clearly, it is something that everyone has a different opinion of, and yet it’s used a lot in discussions. But how can you ever have a good discussion if you are talking about different things?

This is stolen from another topic, but fits here. I believe there are more than two categories. Not just “Hardcore” and “Casual.” Each have very different qualities.

5 Tiers of Gamers:

Isolated Gamer: These are the people that log in, play their game, don’t talk to anyone or do group content, they are fairly rare in the MMO gaming world but they are out there. They are vastly unaffected by the problem that is being discussed.

Casual Gamer: The casual gamer doesn’t really go on forums or push into the most difficult aspects of the game. If they do go to forums, it is mostly to read, and rarely post. They do the content that is easily accessible, they socialize and have friends in the game, and do not necessarily define fun with success in character progression.

Dedicated Gamer: These are very similar to Casual gamers, only they will spend more time on character progression, and typically participate in forum discussions, on the games site and in general gaming discussion sites like mmorpg.com. They still don’t put too much investment in their characters though, but do play with goals in mind.

Hardcore Gamer: These players are the step between dedicated and the Content Locust. These are the people in progression guilds, they see the endgame content first, do hardcore modes, and generally have the rarest and most difficult achievements and items. They make strategies that the rest of the players will follow. Are a very vocal minority on the forums, and change the landscape of the game as such.

Content Locust: Aside from what was mentioned above, it should also be noted that this part of the population in a game is generally less than 1% but the effect they have on games and the gaming industry is much larger than that.

I don`t normally bother too much with forums but this one makes me laugh.It`s all so serious
The only reason for posting this is that I am sure there are thousands of players in the same position who are having fun and really just don`t care. I am sure this is the demographic Anet are aiming for.
Well, they don`t come more casual than me—couple hours some evenings -never weekends (far more things to do)--so far got a 65 ranger and a 39 warrior—myself and guildies are having a blast. Mainly PVE with an occassional dabble in PVP Could not care less about gating or minor bugs here and there—its a computer game not my life and i`ve already had my money`s worth of entertainment

I agree with several posters. Casual doesn’t mean you don’t have a lot of time to play. It means you aren’t bloodthirsty for the newest gizmo or you don’t run around trying to do every piece of new content in one day.

I consider myself a casual player and I play probably 4 to 5 hours a day on average. More on the weekend. I just don’t accomplish anything in most peoples’ eyes. I just hang out and explore. Heck I don’t even finish dailies most of the time.

I never even considered getting exotics let alone legendaries. Did it bother me? Heck no. That’s just how I play. I couldn’t care less about this hubbub over Ascended whatevers. I’ll never get them.

What does bother me as a casual player is it seems like there’s not much for me to do in this Lost Shores update. To me it seems like it’s all geared towards the hardcore player. If that’s how updates work in this game then I probably won’t be playing for long. I want new towns and regions to explore not new dungeons and stuff you have to be level 80 for. And certainly not high level gear that I know I won’t even try for because I just don’t care. I’m just apathetic to it all.

I actually fit Panda’s definition. I’m just not going to chase shinies or achievements or whatever by doing what isn’t fun over and over and over again. I do what I’m in the mood to do when I play. It’s okay to dangle carrots, but only if getting them is enjoyable. Isn’t the point of MMOs enjoying the game itself and not just chasing rewards?

i would have to disagree with the op, and agree with rehashed jibe tube.

i am casual because i dont want to feel obligated to be online at dedicated raid times week after week.
i am casual because i dont want to have to study the pvp meta game like its one of my college courses just to have fun.
i am casual because i think a life outside of the game is worth something.

if i wanted to be a hardcore gear grinder i would play a game like wow where the game really boils down to being able to play all day every day while giving up any semblence of a real life.

personally i think that gameplay caters to the lowest section of the playerbase.
these people dont want to win through skill.
they want to be more powerful through better gear so they can auto-win.
being bad gets covered up by superior gear.

People are playing a huge game of semantics with ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ here, and it all seems to be related to power creep and the new tier of gear. The best comment I’ve seen on the matter was in a PCGamer comment thread and it said, “Umm…I like new gear and content”. I would probably be considered ‘casual by some, and ’hardcore’ by others, depending on the many definitions, labels, and associations you’ve all made.

Attitudes like this though, just make me angry:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I believe players should depend more on skill and less on arbitrary stat advantages. Content should be designed to challenge your abilities rather than to serve as gear checks.

If you can think of a mechanics and game systems that will offer new content and challenges that aren’t gear or stat dependent at all, then by all means, suggest them. I would love to hear new ideas from the community, and I’m sure ANet would too! This isn’t what people are doing though, they’re just bashing the decisions ANet already made and putting words in their mouths. Furthermore, this attitude, is childish:

Shinzan.2908:

I very much should be able to jump back into the game and experience the same content as those who play constantly. I think getting things in game should be a matter of skill and not time played, someone shouldn’t have nicer and stronger gear just because they spend more time grinding for it. And I definitely would mind having to play catchup each time a new item tier gets released.

Time spent acquiring gear and moving through content should mean something, and again, if you can think of mechanics they could add to the game that would result in the most ‘skilled’ (let’s not even try to define that) players getting the best gear, let the ideas flow my friend.

People are criticizing ANet endless for the not catering to the right community, or not ‘sticking to their manifesto’. They’re honestly, just trying to do what’s best for the many different groups that make up their player base. Who care exactly how you define casual and hardcore? Why not just suggest what you’d like to see in the game, rather than picking apart the decisions the developer is making and offering no ideas of your own?

Nayru.4537:

If you play 5 hours a day, you’re not a casual player.

Depends on your definition of casual

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

That’s when you reach a new tier of “involved gamers”.

Those like to pretend they are casual, but are very vocal about certain things and have agendas and goals they pursue. They might not have a hardcore mentality or the play-time but they are equally as invested as a hardcore player.

“Involved Gamers” typically make up the majority of the only Forum Community of any MMO.

Then there’s obviously the “core gamers” who make up a significant portion of the forum population but only a fraction of the game population.

My definition of casual vs hardcore is totally different. I think it defines your playstyle.

Hardcore is a player who wants the top stuff ASAP and puts the time in to get it, they want to be at the highlest level of the game.

Casual is a player who just plays the game for fun, they’ll probably get the best gear but later and just likes to try all the content without continuously repeaqting it to get items.

I don’t think you can define a style of play purely by how many hours you can play for.

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

This thread is valuable, simple because it shows how many different definitions of casual there are out there. All you people talking about casual and hardcore players? You are all talking about different things. No wonder its impossible to have a discussion on the topic.

IMO, the difference between “casual player” and “hardcore” doesn’t come down to how much time you put in the game or even the forums, what matters is the reason you play the game.

Hardcore Gamer: Primary consideration is “winning”, “beating the game”, “completing the game”, “being the best or among the best in the game”.

If you will suffer through endless hours of grind that you would otherwise never do in order to gain a piece of gear for no reason other than that it is the best, or because you need it to get the best, you might be a hardcore gamer. If you rush to complete map checklists so that you can check “complete the map checklist” off of the checklist of things you need to do to “beat the game”, you might be a hardcore gamer. If you think there is “nothing else to do” after you have “maxed out” the stats of your character and/or have completed in-game checklists, you might be a hardcore gamer. If you will put other things on hold, like going on dates, going out with friends, going outside, tending to the child or a pet, and ignore them in order to do things in game that are necessary to achieve some form of “best-ness”, you might be a hardcore gamer. If you purposefully change your work schedule or call in sick to play the game several times in a year, you might be a hardcore gamer.

Casual Gamer: Primary consideration in an MMOG is “having fun”, “entertainment”, “relaxation”, “enjoyment”.

If, regardless of what is going on in-game, you will simply get up and walk off if a friend comes over, or if a child needs a glass of water, or if the phone rings, or if the dog wants to play , you might be a casual player. If you will keep lesser-quality gear over higher-quality because it looks better on your character, you might be a casual gamer. If you would rather see the development team come out with new city clothes and dance emotes than new dungeons and higher-tiered gear, you might be a casual gamer. If you spend hours in the game having fun doing absolutely nothing that will actually advance your character in any significant way, you might be a casual gamer. If you actually avoid grouping and dungeon-crawling because you don’t want to put other players at risk when you get up and do other stuff away from the game as it comes up, you might be a casual player.

I challenge the assertion that the people who like grinding out gear to do content are the “hardcore” crowd. I come from fighting games, STGs, and FPS’s. Hardcore players are the people with the dedication to spend crazy levels of effort to study mechanics and hone their own skill, or that of their team, to the point where demonstrating that skill by defeating the most challenging content or opponent looks as easy as walking.

People who repeatedly perform easy tasks to get numbers on their gear in order to accomplish other tasks whose results determined by those numbers are not.

This is what hardcore looks like, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvFTQCkH-Zw
And this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ENJmEJI8d8

I could link competition LoL or other games but it would be less obvious what’s happening in them to those who don’t play them. And while competitive multiplayer games are a breeding ground for hardcore players it’s not the only place you’ll find them. You’ll see it in those Guitar Hero prodigy videos, Quake Done Quick, Wipeout HD recordings, or anywhere else someone is defeating the most challenging content in a way that would make most people rethink just how good they actually are at whichever game.

There is one thing all of these game environments have that enables hardcore players to do their thing and that is an even playing field. You can install and load up the very same game and attempt the very same things they did using the very same tools that they had. Because that’s the only way you can really know how good they and you are. And the lack of even playing fields is why the highest level of competition for hardcore players, esports comps, don’t run MMOs. ANet knows this and that’s why their pvp with esports ambitions has no gear differential, but those of us who are hardcore players in pve aren’t as fortunate it seems.

Kudos to Ravbek. That is the most appropriate distinction I’ve seen.

Webba.3071:

This thread is valuable, simple because it shows how many different definitions of casual there are out there. All you people talking about casual and hardcore players? You are all talking about different things. No wonder its impossible to have a discussion on the topic.

Amen to that.

A casual want everything handed to them, without any effort or time comitment.
A Casual player wants acces to everything a player that puts alot of thought, strategy and effort with their friends into getting their items, for free.
A casual player dont do any raids or harder content, so they dont need the items from there, yet they want acces to it, for free without any effort, even though they dont need it.
A Casual player use the “you just want to own me in PvP” as an excuse.

All I can say to this thread is this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamer#Casual_gamer

Selo, casuals don’t care about any of that stuff. That’s what makes them casual. You’re talking about a lazy hardcore gamer, lol.

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

But it isn’t. People like to title themselves “casual” because it makes them appear more balanced.

The vast, vast majority of the game’s player base simply does not care about what goes on around the game. They don’t care about content they can’t beat and don’t care about items they can’t reach.

I assume you are an “involved Gamer” who likes to think they are “casual” but the fact that you are posting here and discussing the game proves that you are 10 times more involved with it than your average player.

He wants what the hardcore player wants – to be a worthwhile.

Im not sure how casual players are defined, but I may be in that category. I guess I would define casual players who dont play that much and dont know every detail about a game. There was a post “I dont wanna be your hero” where someone basically said he wants to live in this game and be able to do a lot of different things. Imo thats what definitely casual is not..

Now, I think the key thing that makes casual players (like me) play a game is really design and how it looks and feels, not some mechanic details or leveling or any of that. I, for example, never really understood all the details about Diablo 2 leveling system, all skills and how they work, but I played the game a lot and loved it. The addictive part about it is design, visual style, and music style, not classes or skills or any of that. The same with Need for Speed most wanted or underground. After this game there were others like Shift, etc. But the new developers never understood what made the previous games so awesome. There wasnt this unique addictive design and this special look and feel about it. I think GW2 has a very good design (although I dont really like the music, no matter how precious outside the game it may seem, it just doesnt fit GW2 imo) and the game has lots of potential and room for improving for both hardcore and casual players.

If you ask me why I play this game.. well, its just a lot of fun. I dont have any goals to get some exact stats or something, although if you show me some nice armor I would probably go get it, but if I didnt, I wouldnt make a big deal out of it.

Dee Jay.2460:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

But it isn’t. People like to title themselves “casual” because it makes them appear more balanced.

The vast, vast majority of the game’s player base simply does not care about what goes on around the game. They don’t care about content they can’t beat and don’t care about items they can’t reach.

I assume you are an “involved Gamer” who likes to think they are “casual” but the fact that you are posting here and discussing the game proves that you are 10 times more involved with it than your average player.

again, i would disagree with you on pretty much every single thing you said.

if a person puts time into something, if they are casual or hardcore, they will generally care about that thing. saying otherwise is just pretending human nature doesnt exist.

a casual person may post on the forums more than they actually play because they have time at work and constant access to a computer, but cannot actually play games. pretending forum posting is some type of indication of being hardcore is just ignorant.

i cannot find anything logical you base your opinions on except that you just want it to be that way in your own mind.

I you take it literally, a casual player is simply somebody who plays less than others. Doesn’t say much about skill or willingness. I’d also fall into that category, depending on the point of view. What’s “less”, once per month, one hour a week, one hour per day?
Anyway, “casual” had a very negative connotation lately, so it probably means more than that for most people.

Nayru.4537:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

But it isn’t. People like to title themselves “casual” because it makes them appear more balanced.

The vast, vast majority of the game’s player base simply does not care about what goes on around the game. They don’t care about content they can’t beat and don’t care about items they can’t reach.

I assume you are an “involved Gamer” who likes to think they are “casual” but the fact that you are posting here and discussing the game proves that you are 10 times more involved with it than your average player.

again, i would disagree with you on pretty much every single thing you said.

if a person puts time into something, if they are casual or hardcore, they will generally care about that thing. saying otherwise is just pretending human nature doesnt exist.

a casual person may post on the forums more than they actually play because they have time at work and constant access to a computer, but cannot actually play games. pretending forum posting is some type of indication of being hardcore is just ignorant.

i cannot find anything logical you base your opinions on except that you just want it to be that way in your own mind.

I’m certain casual players dont post on the forums while at work, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

i suppose it is completely unheard of for people who work at computers all day to get bored and post on forums to kill time.

i mean thats just crazy talk right there.

Nayru.4537:

Fritz.5026:

Nayru.4537:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

But it isn’t. People like to title themselves “casual” because it makes them appear more balanced.

The vast, vast majority of the game’s player base simply does not care about what goes on around the game. They don’t care about content they can’t beat and don’t care about items they can’t reach.

I assume you are an “involved Gamer” who likes to think they are “casual” but the fact that you are posting here and discussing the game proves that you are 10 times more involved with it than your average player.

again, i would disagree with you on pretty much every single thing you said.

if a person puts time into something, if they are casual or hardcore, they will generally care about that thing. saying otherwise is just pretending human nature doesnt exist.

a casual person may post on the forums more than they actually play because they have time at work and constant access to a computer, but cannot actually play games. pretending forum posting is some type of indication of being hardcore is just ignorant.

i cannot find anything logical you base your opinions on except that you just want it to be that way in your own mind.

I’m certain casual players dont post on the forums while at work, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

i suppose it is completely unheard of for people who work at computers all day to get bored and post on forums to kill time.

i mean thats just crazy talk right there.

Yeah it is, you’re talking about casual gamers. They don’t do that. They play 5 hours a week. They don’t roam game forums all day at work.

if you say so chief, you are obviously the brains of this operation.

i would continue to dispute the point, but you obviously will not change your mind regardless of any amount of facts i present, so i dont see the point in putting in the effort.

i would think any adult with real world experience would know better, but hey, there is no guarantee i am actually talking to an adult, so maybe my expectations are skewed.

Personally I find the internet’s need to pigeonhole people in to stereotypes to be rather immature and narrow-minded. When it comes down to it, everyone playing Guild Wars 2 is a different person with different priorities. Labelling them is lazy and causes tension and conflict.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Hardcore Gamer:* Primary consideration is “winning”, “beating the game”, “completing the game”, “being the best or among the best in the game”.

Casual Gamer: Primary consideration in an MMOG is “having fun”, “entertainment”, “relaxation”, “enjoyment”.

These just about say it all, no need for more words, it’s all there.

Nayru.4537:

Sounds like a noob more than anything.

No, the 8000 reply topic is pretty much about that. “I have to make an effort to get these items, but i want them for free”
“Im so angry i wont get the best items in the game for free, even though i dont need them for the content im doing as a casual player”

Solid Gold.9310:

Hardcore Gamer:* Primary consideration is “winning”, “beating the game”, “completing the game”, “being the best or among the best in the game”.

Casual Gamer: Primary consideration in an MMOG is “having fun”, “entertainment”, “relaxation”, “enjoyment”.

Only for the majority of mmo players, “winning”, “beating the game”, “completing the game”, “being the best or among the best in the game”. = “having fun”, “entertainment”, “relaxation”, “enjoyment”

And playing “dress up doll” = “boring”

Selo.1250:

Nayru.4537:

Sounds like a noob more than anything.

No, the 8000 reply topic is pretty much about that. “I have to make an effort to get these items, but i want them for free”
“Im so angry i wont get the best items in the game for free, even though i dont need them for the content im doing as a casual player”

a person could just post the opposite of what you say though.

you act as if since you can play all the time you are entitled to be better than everyone else and you should auto-win through artificial stats on your gear instead of just being a better player.

just because people want the game to be about skill instead of artificial stats on gear is not a bad thing, unless you are the type who thinks you should auto win because you grinded out those artificial stats.

i personally dont see grinding out gear as some amount of player ability, unless you consider sacrificing your life some type of skill.

Nayru.4537:

Fritz.5026:

Nayru.4537:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

Fritz.5026:

Dee Jay.2460:

A few notes about “Casual Players”.

1. Casual Players don’t read the forums. They take the game as it is and have little interest or involvement in what goes on around it.

2. They don’t generally feel entitled to anything. They will do content that they can, and ignore stuff they cannot do.

3. They aren’t very vocal, considering their portion of the player base.

4. Time spent playing isn’t actually all that an important indicator for player mentality.
_________________________________________

People who post on the forums are naturally more engaged in the game than most players. They care more and are more invested. Hence they are more opinionated too.

I would say you are wrong on nearly all counts. your notes and definitions are your opinions, and i would personally disagree.

just because someone is not hardcore does not automatically mean they dont care about the game or wont post on the forums. thats just being ridiculous.

But it isn’t. People like to title themselves “casual” because it makes them appear more balanced.

The vast, vast majority of the game’s player base simply does not care about what goes on around the game. They don’t care about content they can’t beat and don’t care about items they can’t reach.

I assume you are an “involved Gamer” who likes to think they are “casual” but the fact that you are posting here and discussing the game proves that you are 10 times more involved with it than your average player.

again, i would disagree with you on pretty much every single thing you said.

if a person puts time into something, if they are casual or hardcore, they will generally care about that thing. saying otherwise is just pretending human nature doesnt exist.

a casual person may post on the forums more than they actually play because they have time at work and constant access to a computer, but cannot actually play games. pretending forum posting is some type of indication of being hardcore is just ignorant.

i cannot find anything logical you base your opinions on except that you just want it to be that way in your own mind.

I’m certain casual players dont post on the forums while at work, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

i suppose it is completely unheard of for people who work at computers all day to get bored and post on forums to kill time.

i mean thats just crazy talk right there.

Yeah it is, you’re talking about casual gamers. They don’t do that. They play 5 hours a week. They don’t roam game forums all day at work.

lol ^ this guy.

I’m a casual gamer and I do exactly what he said. I am on the forums more than I play the game, while at work. I play a couple of hours a night, I just now got to 80 on 1 character(all the others are below 20). Some people just like to a) go to the forums to stay up with what’s going on in the game, and have the time to do so and b) don’t have a lot of time to actually play the game.

I love the game, but I know I’ll be playing it for years so I don’t care how long it takes me to get top gear or even what I get done on a certain day. Hell, I can spend a whole night jabbing to other players sometimes or just trying to climb some mountain that isn’t supposed to be climbable. The forums are great for someone like me, a casual, and it doesn’t automatically make you not so by posting in here.

That’s just silly.

I think of skillbased playing more a pvp thing, and there it should be equal in gear, like in daoc. but you need other ways to character progress. daoc wouldnt have lived as long as it did without character progress.

In Raids, skillsbased playing is still a huge factor. How many times havent raids wiped becouse of some players lacking in skills, concentration etc, maybe that is one part casual players dread.
I want skillbased playing + gear progression + character progression. You dont need to excluse one of them for a mmo to work. As others have posted before, even if you get stronger, enemies also get stronger.
Only having skillbased playing however gets very boring quickly for most players, players needs goals and rewards to keep on playing.
Maybe not all, but a huge majority.
ANet was brave to try it out, but unfortunally they tried it out in such a huge game like GW2, and in the end, it will hurt them.

kistell.5684:

Being a casual player myself , sorry i disagree with what you said.
I have the time and the experience of being a hardcore player, but i got fed up with that game play.

That is why i play GW2 and no longer RIFT.

I play GW2 because of what Anet originally said it was going to be.

It was sold as a game where in your words
" A casual player can log in for fun every now and then and expects to be able to jump into end game content with their hardcore friends. "

This is exactly how I feel also. I am also quite capable to do the greedy grind and have in the past. But purchased GW2 because I was sold on it’s different gaming model and for a few months it was exactly that. I have to add because of this I’ve enjoyed it more then most as it was all about fun. Anet did a great job but no matter how their response reads I’m old enough and been around long enough to see what direction this game is going. I can definitely say I’m not interested investing more time in another game like that. It’s not like I disliked those games it’s just that I’m totally played out with that type if game play.

I’m am exactly what the OP describes… I really don’t care for legends atm as I do not have the gold to do it nor a job to buy gems out of game to get the money in game to get one. I do want a legendary in the future, but its not feasible atm. I currently need enough money to fill-in all recipes in every craft or enough of them to be able to make the precursors and lower level stuff for my alts.

As for guilds, I never gotten into a guild that cared or wanted to help me on all the content or just party for fun. This is what I really want at this time. I am always wasting money in the game because I have to do it all myself and I struggle badly.

When I think about what I think a casual gamer is, it goes like this. A casual gamer is just someone who takes their time when playing games. Goals don`t seem all that important because they know it will get done sooner or later. I`ve known plenty of casuals ove rthe past 10 years or so that played 10 hours a day but had like nothing to show for the time. So the time commitment to me don`t really qualify someone as casual player. I`ve known hardcores too that could only play an hour or two a night because of work, families, or whatever.

Now when I think of a hardcore player, I think of them like this. A hardcore player is someone usually that once they set a goal they never stop until it`s done. They live, eat ,and breath gaming and is what they like to do the most in their offtime from family,work, or whatever. They usually want to make every minute ingame count and are very competitive for the most part. They usually aslo view their time ingame more seriously because they want to the max out of every play session. They want the most reward for their time as it don`t matter as much to a more casual player.

So you got two different playstyles that like the game. You are going to have a hard time pleasing one group without pissing off the other. Any idea how difficult it is to make a game that pleases everyone? Or to release an update that only pleases one crowd and have to listen to all the junk the other crowd spouts until they get an update aimed at them. It`s tricky situation, but will balance out over time.

SLOThief.5317:

Shinzan.2908:

I very much should be able to jump back into the game and experience the same content as those who play constantly. I think getting things in game should be a matter of skill and not time played, someone shouldn’t have nicer and stronger gear just because they spend more time grinding for it. And I definitely would mind having to play catchup each time a new item tier gets released.

Time spent acquiring gear and moving through content should mean something, and again, if you can think of mechanics they could add to the game that would result in the most ‘skilled’ (let’s not even try to define that) players getting the best gear, let the ideas flow my friend.

Talking about a pigeon hole. You ask about offering mechanics of a game yet pigeon hole the phrasing of the question specifically around gear.
I think one way would be instead of focusing, as has been said many times in other places, instead of the gear infinitely having to get jacked up stat after stat after stat. Spend that creative flow into challenging the SKILL and PROBLEM SOLVING prowess of players. Let the hardcore get their fix by adding things where they have to think about what they are going to do, watch how the flow of it all is working, maybe try to even re innovate the basic range, melee, AoE trinity of bosses. They done good for towards the tank,heals,dps …so why stop there.

I am in what I consider a Hardcore casual. I want to see the content and dont mind working towards it at all. I am not going to spend my vacation time and every waking moment “farming” for gear however. I don’t even mind trying to schedule time for raiding in WvW or dungeons. However I will not make it 3-4 nights a week. If I can make it that night …awesome! if not…. I should not have to worry about getting chastised by the guild. I spend a lot of time with the new guild I am in because these folks make it fun but they have never once made it feel like I am gonna be on the perpetual ignore list if mid event I get an important phone call.
I will not either break down and try to do the long math to figure out the theorycraft of the game. I like experiencing it….not breaking it down.

I feel that if the gaming community had the right nudge that maybe there’s a chance to find the challenge in the conflict and figuring it out to be the reward instead of that specific seasons/version gear that they had to obtain.

But thats coming from a hard core casual.

Casuals are fickle, whimsical, flaky, unreliable, annoying little kittenhats. It breaks my heart that developers are forced to hand tailor games to suit the casuals more and more every year just because they outnumber hardcore players. Casuals love to argue that they deserve all the accommodations because they are the majority. They don’t give two kittens if this means the game becomes cheapened, watered down, or dumbed down.

Here’s a thought: If you are too casual to keep up with any particular game, why don’t you go find a more casual game and stop trying to make all of the hardcore games less hardcore?

Anyway Naryu, being a casual isn’t determined by time spent in-game or on the forums. It’s a state of mind. I could spend 20 hours a day in the game and still be casual. It has nothing to do with time expenditure.