Guild Wars 2

One part of game development these days that worries me is the ‘We (company) listen to feedback, monitor forums and sites’ etc. and base decisions on this feedback.

We have seen it with the recent reduction in the DR mechanism, now the article on sPvP claims,

‘We’re always listening to our player base, and taking their feedback and ideas into account. We watch the forums on multiple sites. We read the comments on Guild Wars 2 articles. We take off our guild tags, sit in crowded maps in game, and eavesdrop on your conversations and unfettered opinions’

On one hand this is great, players are the ones that play the game. We find problems and we offer solutions. Its the way the game grows.

On the other hand it is also clear that those who shout the loudest about the problems, are the stressed minority. They are often very opinionated, exagerate, and in rare cases out and out lie.

I have seen games go sour because they put to much stake in this vocal minority, no doubt anyone who plays several games, over the last few years has also had this experience.

Why not issue surveys/questionairres if you want genuine feedback from a large player base?

Yeah, I second this. I’ve played MMOG’s that used to run little in-game surveys on specific, hot issues when you logged in, and quite often the info gathered from the log-in survey overwhelmingly contradicted the vocal minority found in forums.

The silent majority votes every day via packed server lists. I suggest that before ANET makes any meaningful changes to anything they run a log-in poll on the matter.

I agree 100%, actually most of the playerbase is happily ingame playing, not venting in the forums. We do know that GW2 has it’s bugs, but I’m more than certain that Anet staff is competent enough do make their own decisions in how to deal with them, we as players should just be the source of suggestions/feedback. Usually people don’t feel the need to post if they are happy with the game and this results in overly negative threads about minor problems. The biggest trend I see is people overreacting to everything and being . . . spoiled. At least in this official forum it’s a bit under control, but for the source of unnecessary raging in extremes, one should visit gw2guru for a moment. I get my daily laughs at stupid from there.

So best wishes to Anet staff, don’t take all of those negative threads that seriously.
I never played your first game, but GW2 is everything I expected from a good MMO.
Thank you for the beautiful world and enjoyable game mechanics that even a retired competitive FPS player such as myself can enjoy.

These were my thoughts on the subject.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/In-game-voting/first#post233145

Xericor.9103:

Why not issue surveys/questionairres if you want genuine feedback from a large player base?

I actually miss those since the beta. Sometimes I did something that was really fun and want to let them know, but posting about a fun event on the forum is just something you don’t easily do. Other times I want to give feedback on something that was unbalanced/boring in my opinion, but by the time I want to post about it forgot the name of the dynamic event.

I understand that the majority simply wants to play the game and does no longer want to have surveys popping up interrupting their gameplay. But couldn’t it be an option to have it as a checkbox in your settings? I would love to continue giving feedback to help improve the game and the easier that becomes the more often I will do it. It could also be a way to reach that silent majority.

About new implementations one could do a survey, but I think this will be hard to reach the silent majority. In no way should they become an obligation. I think it is better if they implement those and then use the feedback system they had during Beta which you can decide to participate in or not in your settings.

Well, some players that claim that only the minority is asking for changes while the mayority thinks everything is fine in the game, are the same that say wow is a bad game…. with 11million subscribers

I’m loving gw2, but it could be much better with the base it has

I don’t think anyone is saying WoW is a bad game, only that they don’t want GW2 becoming another WoW clone.

That’s why I said “some”

First of all, you don’t know whether you are the majority, unless you can back it up. Neither end can claim this.

Second of all, sorry, but if you don’t talk, then obviously noone will listen. If you don’t state your opinion, then obviously you can’t complain about why it wasn’t heard afterwards.

Oh, and if they are changing something, then,once again,obviously there was quite enough fuss about it. Especially when it comes to DR, something that I can’t understand why you find bad to loosen in the first place, especially since it shouldn’t be there to begin with.

If a change doesn’t affect you, then you might as well not QQ about it. If you weren’t hitting DR before the change, then you won’t be hitting it now either.

And ye, this is how human societies work. If you don’t speak, then you don’t exist as an opinion and are by default ok with what’s happening.

I’m pretty sure the so called “silent majority” are well aware of the forums. If they felt like they needed to throw their two cents in they probably would. As is, though, if there turns out to be something they don’t like in the game or that something needs changed and they don’t mention it, who’s fault is it really? There are links right to the GW2 main page right on the launcher.
Maybe the way to approach this is the next time you see someone who is complaining about something in game…direct them to the forum. Or someone who has a great idea…tell them to go post it on the forums. My guess is that if the people who are playing the game that never visit or post to the forums or make themselves heard they probably won’t take the time to fill out a survey either.

Only Anet knows the truth from the stats. Frequency, duration of people logging in, etc.

All I can say is most of the zones i used to play in are deserted. Server feels like a lot of players left or are playing much less.

That “silence” speaks volumes.

prenavo.3926:

I’m pretty sure the so called “silent majority” are well aware of the forums. If they felt like they needed to throw their two cents in they probably would. As is, though, if there turns out to be something they don’t like in the game or that something needs changed and they don’t mention it, who’s fault is it really? There are links right to the GW2 main page right on the launcher.
Maybe the way to approach this is the next time you see someone who is complaining about something in game…direct them to the forum. Or someone who has a great idea…tell them to go post it on the forums. My guess is that if the people who are playing the game that never visit or post to the forums or make themselves heard they probably won’t take the time to fill out a survey either.

Actually, I know quite a number of people who aren’t using these forums. They’re not doing it because they have nothing to say or because they don’t want to ‘speak up’… they’re doing it because like pretty much every other official game forum ever, these forums are toxic place full of racist, sexist and que’erphobic jerks who will insult and cuss out others at the drop of a head. (Far less than on other game forums in this case, yes, but these people are still here.)

I too miss the little surveys from the Betas. They were kinda badly implemented (wouldn’t stay up long enough for proper comments, yet covered too much of the screen while they were up), but with a smoother integration into the UI, I think they could be a great asset.

Ten.8421:

Actually, I know quite a number of people who aren’t using these forums. They’re not doing it because they have nothing to say or because they don’t want to ‘speak up’… they’re doing it because like pretty much every other official game forum ever, these forums are toxic place full of racist, sexist and que’erphobic jerks who will insult and cuss out others at the drop of a head. (Far less than on other game forums in this case, yes, but these people are still here.)

I too miss the little surveys from the Betas. They were kinda badly implemented (wouldn’t stay up long enough for proper comments, yet covered too much of the screen while they were up), but with a smoother integration into the UI, I think they could be a great asset.

Ye,no denying there, but what gives you the impression that every disatisfied person uses the forums instead? Both ends have that type of people.

I mean, seriously, look at the:

a) The so called “fan-boys”
b) People who defend the game and company because they misunderstand the reason behind a complain and think that people do it in order to mudsling the company/game.
c) The rest people who are just happy, visit the forums and can understand complains and have an actual conversation over them because they know they exist and that they are just not as annoyed by them. (yes, these people exist too, although they are getting close to being as rare as a leprichaun)

Long story short, saying that all dissatisfied use forums,but the satisfied do not is a bit far fetched and a little one-sided.

I’ll give one anecdote on someone who almost never posts on forums: My father has a job which requires constant travel and often he only gets a couple hours to play each day.

Both me and him started playing the game with the few days before “official release” thing. We planned to play together and such, but eventually he just stopped playing GW2 after a month and went back to WoW (which he’s been playing since release as well). I asked him why, and he said it simply too much of a grind – he never made it even CLOSE to a high level despite trying nearly every profession and race. I disagreed, but he had some very good points that really made me look at this game in a new light ever since. Don’t think he’s played the game since then. (Keep in mind I haven’t played WoW since the Lich King expansion)

So, I will say that it’s true the vocal forum posters often exaggerate and … other… stuff, but it usually does not mean their opinions aren’t valid. Even “L2P” posts often highlight issues hidden by the immediate thoughts of the OP.

Agreed, in game surveys would be awesome. There could be a compete separate page next to the trading post, full of questions and surveys about the game play, taken from the hot topics from the forum and from the suggestions. There every player could vote and comment.

Apos.5184:

Ye,no denying there, but what gives you the impression that every disatisfied person uses the forums instead? Both ends have that type of people.

I did not say that? I simply responded to the allegations that the people who don’t use the forum are doing so because they don’t want to give feedback in the first place.

I second the OP.
In-game polls are the best way to listen your playerbase.
However, in this case what is critical is what types of questions are asked and what pre-set answers are offered.
I just hope they ask the right questions.

I’d like to add a reply on this topic in regards to the negative effects of listening to the very vocal minority. I used to play this little game called World of Warcraft. I was a very happy lil warrior, clearing content and hanging out with my friends. The players were all enjoying an expansion titled “Wrath of the Lich King”. But then, a very vocal minority of the players were going to the warcraft forums in anger, because the game was too easy and gasp casuals were getting gear that only the hardcore and elite should have. They were complaining that heroics (which were far too hard and required a specific group setup to complete in the previous expansion) were no challenge at all and that a tank and healer could 2 man faceroll them. They were complaining that all the raids were the same way, even Lich King himself was too easy.

Entire hardcore guilds were posting on the forums in rage over the fact that their game was now accessible to everyone and they wanted blizzard to make them feel special while playing a game again. Blizzard listened. They responded with the next expansion, Cataclysm. Cata raised the difficulty bar (at first). Heroic dungeons were now full of 1 shot mechanics. Heroic raid bosses were now designed to wipe raids. The game was challenging to the hardcore. The problem is, while blizzard listened to the roughly 5-10% of players who were complaining the game was too easy, the 90% who were just truckin along havin a good time were now unable to complete the content. 2 million people quit playing in the first few months. It wasn’t the hardcore minority that quit. Oh no, they were having a great time feeling special wearing their “heroic epics”.

It was the casual player who quit. They didnt go the forums to complain the game was too hard now. They didnt make a big deal in chat channels in game. They just saw it was too hard for them, no longer fun for them and they just plain quit. Unsubbed without a word to anyone. A funny thing happened though. The hardcore players who were complaining that Wrath was too easy were now complaining that Cataclysm was too hard.

Moral of the story: Gamers are a mostly clueless bunch that have no idea what they really want. They say they want hard and then complain its too hard, they say they want easy and complain its too easy. Keep doing what you’re doing A-Net. Just don’t pay attention to those yelling the loudest, because they’ll keep yelling long after their demands have been met.

Apos.5184:

First of all, you don’t know whether you are the majority, unless you can back it up. Neither end can claim this.

Second of all, sorry, but if you don’t talk, then obviously noone will listen. If you don’t state your opinion, then obviously you can’t complain about why it wasn’t heard afterwards.

Oh, and if they are changing something, then,once again,obviously there was quite enough fuss about it. Especially when it comes to DR, something that I can’t understand why you find bad to loosen in the first place, especially since it shouldn’t be there to begin with.

If a change doesn’t affect you, then you might as well not QQ about it. If you weren’t hitting DR before the change, then you won’t be hitting it now either.

And ye, this is how human societies work. If you don’t speak, then you don’t exist as an opinion and are by default ok with what’s happening.

it is a well researched and accepted fact in communications and marketing that satisfied customers are very unlikely to voice their satisfaction compared to disgruntled customers voicing their dissatisfaction. If you do not believe this, buy some standard works on these subjects.

And no, just because you “exist as an opinion” is not enough reason to cave in to your demands, neither is it a proof your point of view is justified. Happy people do not speak up here BECAUSE they like the way things are (their silence is their statement), you demand of them they have to show up to tell how fine they are with the state of the game? No, polls are way better – in game, not in forums, as usually about 5 percent of a given playerbase partake in a forum, and make it mandatory (even if you can click "don´t care about topic x).

sinister.9216:

Moral of the story: Gamers are a mostly clueless bunch that have no idea what they really want.

Moral of the story: Gamers Customers are a mostly clueless bunch that have no idea what they really want.

Gathering requirements for software, regardless of whether it’s a game or not, has always been problematic. Folks are very good at telling you what they don’t like when they see it and less able to tell you what would delight them. You take their feed back to fix the annoyances, and you use your expertise and vision to try to create something that will delight them, keeping in mind that you won’t be able to make everyone happy.

I think that the angst that a lot of folks have over ANet listening to the extremely (and repetitively) vocal people on the forums is wasted energy. My experience with the Arena Net folks from the original Guild Wars is that while they are responsive to player feed back, they don’t compromise their vision just to cater to the masses.

First question I’d like to see polled in-game is whether classes should be balanced differently for PvE and PvP. I believe the crushing majority would say YES. Right now Anet is balancing PvP only and completely overlooks the effects on PvE (it has been like this for years in GW1 – see the Smiter Boon).

I’ll eat my words if the general consensus is not that.

The last people they should listen to about how to “improve” the game is the people on the forums.

Sounds like a good idea in theory. Having played EQ before and after surveys were necessary (it took 6-7 years for the players to get this fed up and ask for them…) I think you’ll find yourself stunned at how marketing will ask questions to get the answer they want as opposed to looking for real info. It’s kind of like partisan polling, you just groan and click “none of the above” and wonder why they bothered. By the time anything gets through devs, marketing, sales and management, it’s twisted into another reality.

prenavo.3926:

I’m pretty sure the so called “silent majority” are well aware of the forums.

Sure they are, and like with any forum, if they come on here to say what they enjoy about the game, they get trolled to death by players who say they hate the game yet continue to hang out on these forums for some reason.

Why even bother, unless they enjoy arguing or are some sort of masochists, they’ll probably stay away from the forums anyways.

nods I understand where the OP is coming from.

Perhaps, for a while, we should have that mechanism back that we had in the Beta Weekends where we can give our views at the end of an event and rate it. The silent majority would then have a simple voice, without coming here on the forums. And if they’re perfectly happy with the way an event/heart-quest or whatever went – then their opinion will show.

This thread has considered that the people who complain are the vocal minority, but you also have to consider that the people who praise the game in every waking moment are also a minority.

I have a group of friends, about 8 in all whom I know in real life and we regularly go out for dinner and talk about games, movies etc… among other things. Guild Wars 2 was the game most of us were waiting for in the last half decade or so.

Out of the 8 of us, only 1 person remains playing the game.

It’s me.

So where are the majority that are frustrated? I can tell you.
They don’t come to the forums to complain, they don’t troll message boards and they don’t demand Anet to change anything. They just silently pack up their things and leave.
We’re just fooling ourselves by pretending that it’s only a vocal minority that are displeased with the game.

The people who are happy with the game keep on playing. The only objective estimate I can give on wether the majority enjoys the game or not is to observe server population and active players. It would be safe to assume that the ones that continue playing are enjoying the game, and the ones that are absent don’t. Looking at the server lists on the login screen is not a good enough estimate, because there are too many bots that have yet to be dealt with.

Judging from the very decreased map chatter, relatively empty maps, events that are empty (except for karma farming zerg events) and accounting for prime time and off time and different time zones, I can see that the population has dropped quite significantly.

I don’t know if the population drops are because of people quitting, or taking a break from the game. The main question I have is if they will ever come back to the game.

There’s nothing more elitist and kitten than telling other player to go back to WoW or to leave and you won’t miss them. It’s counter intuitive to this game and it’s immature. We always need more people in Guild Wars 2 and we always should be striving to welcome more.
I don’t tell my friends that they should quit the game because they are not good enough or worthy like other people do on the forums here. I find their frustrations quite valid, the only difference was who was willing to keep trying to see things through. If anything I’ve been really trying hard to convince them to play with me, and I’ve been largely unsuccessful.

People who post on forums are more often than not the vocal minority.

And it is the non-vocal majority that has plagued game developers for a long time. This is why tools and metrics developers are so important to a development studio’s asset list. It is important because through statistics, the dev team can see various issues with gameplay.

For example, they may see that the average X player type has so many kills versus deaths versus Y player type. And so on and so forth.

I can assure you that if ANet is worth their salt, they have TONS of statistical data ranging from average queue times in WvW, to number of kills in pvp situations, to average duration of a fight in pve. And probably tons and tons more. And what’s more, they verify and check what the vocal minority on the forums are saying versus this statistical data. If they see an issue, they take it to their QA team and try to reproduce it.

EnochDagor.6185:

I can assure you that if ANet is worth their salt, they have TONS of statistical data ranging from average queue times in WvW, to number of kills in pvp situations, to average duration of a fight in pve. And probably tons and tons more. And what’s more, they verify and check what the vocal minority on the forums are saying versus this statistical data. If they see an issue, they take it to their QA team and try to reproduce it.

Data is a much better source of information than player surveys, much like forensic evidence is more telling than an eye witness account.

There is evidence that ANet is collecting it. John Smith did a really fascinating analysis of the virtual economy we’ve seen graphs of the relative popularity of each profession/race/crafting discipline, and players can get our number of hours played and number of deaths in game, so it seems pretty likely that ANet is collecting a ton of data.

I don’t think the problem is necessarily that ANet needs more player feed back. I think the problem is that some players need/want stronger feed back that their opinion has been heard than is even remotely feasible.

Some folks want a poll and then they want the results published so that they assess where there opinion stands in popularity among what they would perceive to be the majority of people who play. It’s human nature – humans have a tendency to want to constantly measure where they stand relative to “normal”, aka the majority. An anthropologist could probably explain why. In some folks that urge is stronger than others, and when those folks find like-minded folks they tend to group up and get stuck in a feedback loop and then their discussion becomes more about reinforcing which group they belong to rather than exploring the topic at hand.

OK, too early in the morning for me to travel much further down that path.

The “silent majority” is a recent political concept that is used by the medias and politicians in order to justify their action against the “not silent” majority.
It’s just a rhetorical way of saying that you don’t give a s*** about the people who expressed themselves, and you prefer to think that you are the one who possess the right solution to the current issue, justifying that by saying “well, not everybody has said what they have to say, hence there’s a probability that people think like me”. (edit : Which can be true, I have to admit. But it’s a probability, not a fact, and must be treated likewise).

But in truth, that’s an even more stupid concept that it seems, because you cannot be part of a “majority” if you have not stated your opinion. A silent majority has as much sense as “what the dead might think”, or “let’s just give as much credit to what a child says as an adult, because after all, a child is someone who is gonna be an adult one day”. In a word, it’s totally absurd.
A majority is something that results from comparing different expressed opinions. Not when you compare people who gave their point of view with people who didn’t give their opinion. So basically, when you have to make choices to satisfy people’s need, it might be better to listen to the one who said what they wish for, rather than trying to guess the wishes of people who didn’t say anything.

tl;dr : Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not, but don’t talk about nonsense like “silent majority” just because you hear it on TV all the time. It simply doesn’t make sense.