Guild Wars 2

I had been trying to figure out what was so annoying to me about the newer maps, and it finally dawned on me: the EXTREME paucity of waypoints. On the initial maps, even if you die, it’s not too bad because there is a good distribution of waypoints to work with. But on the newer maps, the waypoints are few, far between, and especially on the LW2 and HOT maps, hard to get to in the first place for initial activation. The worst offender is the Silverwastes: It has 3 waypoints for the whole map, only 1 of which is easy to reach, 1 of which is in a useless location, and 2 of which require getting through very difficult areas where you are very likely to die due to the volume of enemies to activate in the first place. So for 99% of the time you spend on the map, if you die your only option is to start all over at the entry point.

Maps need waypoints. They are what keep the game from being excessively annoying to play. They exact a toll for death but keep it from being too excessive. The newer maps ignore this, taking the worst lessons from save points in console games. This does not make the game challenging, it just makes it annoying because you end up playing the same parts over and over, punished for not executing everything with perfect precision or for being unable to gather an organized group at any point.

Put in more waypoints. Give all the maps the kind of coverage the original maps had. Difficulty is fine, but difficulty by forced repetition is not.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

I had been trying to figure out what was so annoying to me about the newer maps, and it finally dawned on me: the EXTREME paucity of waypoints. On the initial maps, even if you die, it’s not too bad because there is a good distribution of waypoints to work with. But on the newer maps, the waypoints are few, far between, and especially on the LW2 and HOT maps, hard to get to in the first place for initial activation. The worst offender is the Silverwastes: It has 3 waypoints for the whole map, only 1 of which is easy to reach, 1 of which is in a useless location, and 2 of which require getting through very difficult areas where you are very likely to die due to the volume of enemies to activate in the first place. So for 99% of the time you spend on the map, if you die your only option is to start all over at the entry point.

Maps need waypoints. They are what keep the game from being excessively annoying to play. They exact a toll for death but keep it from being too excessive. The newer maps ignore this, taking the worst lessons from save points in console games. This does not make the game challenging, it just makes it annoying because you end up playing the same parts over and over, punished for not executing everything with perfect precision or for being unable to gather an organized group at any point.

Put in more waypoints. Give all the maps the kind of coverage the original maps had. Difficulty is fine, but difficulty by forced repetition is not.

Orr says hello.

Most way points in Orr are contested more often than not. As for Hot Maps now they only become contested when an event is active on top of them. Also when you have masteries, the HoT maps are easy and quick to get around.

Once all the dragons are defeated the Asura will be able to establish more waypoints, and do so safely. Consider it motivation to lead the Pact to victory!

~EW

I’m all for the story, but not when it impacts the gameplay negatively. By that argument there should be 0 waypoints in the Heart of Magumma.

You can complain about the waypoints in Orr being contested a lot, but at least they are there to be contested. Using the Silverwastes again as the example, there is basically only a single useful waypoint on the whole map, right at the entrance. Sometimes the Hidden Depths point is handy, but the Drydock Grotto point is almost completely worthless, and all 3 of those points are in the southeast. 2/3rds of the map has 0 waypoint coverage. Essentially no matter what you are doing, if you die at any point you have to start over from scratch. That is the very definition of frustrating map design.

This frustration is readily apparent in the low map population, which only makes it worse for those who actually are there since the event difficulty is extremely high and often has multiple simultaneous parts in different places, and without high player population completing them is virtually impossible. If it were possible to teleport in near what you wanted to do and to respawn if you died without having to cross the whole map, then maybe we would see more interest in doing things in the area.

If this map had even minimal coverage, then there should be waypoints in each of the 4 forts and at the entry to Verdant Brink at least, with more preferable.

I disagree, I think it is better game design to have sparser, more tactical wp placement. Core Tyria is overburdened with wps. There are far too many in each map, some a few feet from one another, with no mobs in between.

Southson, Dry Top, Silverwastes and Maguuma are where the devs have realised that and to up the challenge, encourage exploration and make players less reliant on dying/wping quickly back, they have chosen to reduce the wps. It’s a direction I am massively in favour of.

VB is pretty much spot on – really well placed waypoint system covering the key camps, with a good mix of using uprafts and nuhoch wallows to get around quickly

Auric’s design means you are always close enough to a waypoint, again perfect

TD is different entirely and barely relies on waypoints at all. Instead it utlises Nuhoch Wallows for quick travel, meaning the mastery has value – something many masteries severely lack.

Dragon Stand has a waypoint for each segment in the meta. Which again, is spot on.

Silverwastes’s problem is not necessarily a lack of waypoints, rather the oft contested one to the south and the oft closed skritt tunnels. Interesting game mechanics when SW first released, but less conducive to organic map flow now it’s an older map.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

I’m all for the story, but not when it impacts the gameplay negatively. By that argument there should be 0 waypoints in the Heart of Magumma.

My argument is it is better to not take a game so seriously. If you honestly think that I believe in my heart-of-hearts that the decision was made based solely on lore then you’re wrong.

Sometimes it’s better to reflect on “what are/were the dev’s intentions?” instead of “this is not what I want.” That would be a better and less self-focused discussion than claiming that it’s carte-blanche bad game design.

~EW

I guessing you’re not running a run build since it’s not hard to run straight to a waypoint in Silverwaste and to the next.

Sure I admit the HOT maps are hard to reach to the next waypoint but that why I carry condition removals and speed related skill and stealth is possible. Most importantly taking a good look at your surrounding!

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Sometimes it’s better to reflect on “what are/were the dev’s intentions?” instead of “this is not what I want.” That would be a better and less self-focused discussion than claiming that it’s carte-blanche bad game design.

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

By the way, that is literally part of the Game Design 101 class. An entire lecture was on that topic.

Even genres that operate on toughness recognize this. There is a reason that “torture platformers” like Super Meat Boy have short levels. You can only make a level so long and bank on the determination of people to show their skill so much before the annoyance of repetition kicks in.

MMOs additionally have to walk the line between “can be done alone” and “can only be done if you gather a group”. The waypoint system was part of GW2’s mechanism for getting around this. “Yes it was hard and I died, but at least I can rez at this reasonably close location” was how it was able to make things that were tough even for groups but not turn people off to playing when they had to solo. The lack of waypoints on the newer maps breaks this, turning it instead into “I couldn’t do it this time because I got too much aggro at once/a boss was where I needed to be/there didn’t happen to be enough players to do the event and now I have to go through 20 minutes of map hiking to get back.? kitten this.”

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

By the way, that is literally part of the Game Design 101 class. An entire lecture was on that topic.

So, given that there are a kitten-ton of experienced game designers at ANet who would know that, then that should even more beg the question and discussion of what is/was their intention. It’s short-sighted just to assume that such an important decision of waypoint placement was made lightly and in ignorance.

~EW

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81529-too-many-waypoints/

There is a different side to this discussion.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

By the way, that is literally part of the Game Design 101 class. An entire lecture was on that topic.

So, given that there are a kitten-ton of experienced game designers at ANet who would know that, then that should even more beg the question and discussion of what is/was their intention. It’s short-sighted just to assume that such an important decision of waypoint placement was made lightly and in ignorance.

~EW

In the case of frequently contested waypoints it is a failure to learn from past mistakes. They should have learned this lesson from Orr. The problem has existed long enough. Yet they repeated this in Silverwastes and VB. In the case of VB it was mostly fixed in the April patch. They seem to be designing for what they hope players will do rather than the reality of what players have been doing. The other thing is that wasting players’ time is a pretty common thing in MMOs. GW2 is not that bad in that department but it does tend to make it all the more annoying when it crops up.

Ton of experienced game designers didn’t stop them from attaching various collection items including legendary/precursor collection items to events that were known to be broken for years either.

Getting back to the main topic … after the April patch both VB and AB seems fine. Exalted Portal and Nuhoch Wallows help with AB. With Exalted Portals you can reach each of entrances for Tarir from the initial WP. Southwatch to the Falls is relatively short but you do have to go through a tunnel full of pocket raptors.

TD is mostly fine except the Ley Line Confluence wp is fairly important but it can get contested for extended periods of time because of the Chak Crown event. This is compounded by the fact that the events leading up to it are fairly easy to solo so a single person could be pushing that but then when it gets to the crown that isn’t the case. It doesn’t really matter that much if you already have the map explored but if you just arrived it does suck. Nuhoch Wallows and Teku Nuhoch WP helps but keep in mind that Nuhoch Lore does not unlock until you take at least one character into TD and then there is the issue of having enough mastery points. Did the designers take all that into account? More likely than not they tested things on a character with everything fully unlocked and probably using dev commands to teleport around.

Khisanth.2948:

More likely than not they tested things on a character with everything fully unlocked and probably using dev commands to teleport around.

Really? You think that’s how designers and playtesters work?
That wp is incredibly easy to get to, when I start the map on a new character it’s the first thing I head for and takes a few minutes, no more than that.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

And yet that isn’t what is happening is it? Silverwastes was the most populated farm map for the longest time, it didn’t need WP’s everywhere, just enough to get onto the map and into the labyrinth after the meta.
With HoT maps the complaints are about the maps being full all the time. That lack of waypoints again must be causing that, right.

General Health.9678:

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

And yet that isn’t what is happening is it? Silverwastes was the most populated farm map for the longest time, it didn’t need WP’s everywhere, just enough to get onto the map and into the labyrinth after the meta.
With HoT maps the complaints are about the maps being full all the time. That lack of waypoints again must be causing that, right.

Exactly my point: The new maps are all fine under the assumption of high population. Which they each in turn had when they were the new hotness and everyone was exploring/doing the story. But the lack of waypoints turns them from well designed into badly designed once the newness wears off and the population drops below a threshold. At that point, you have more people going around solo than in either organized or ad-hoc groups, and at that point what was fine becomes difficult because the monster amounts and difficulties, tuned for several people, result in lots of deaths just trying to get from place to place from shear aggro levels, and makes it hard to do events that were tuned to be done by several large groups and are now being attempted by single small groups or just being ignored by solo players. With more waypoints there would be less retreading which would appeal to the solo player and a greater ability to gather and do events for groups, whereas now most would rather do events on the original maps because doing them doesn’t require popping in 30min early and trekking across the map to get to the event spot (there is a reason all the major world bosses and events that are regularly done are those that are right near waypoints).

Your point was that too few waypoints would lead to map death.
This is not the case.
Todays daily was silverwastes. There was nothing in LFG so I just stayed on the map I landed on. I was the only person escorting the first bull to the first fort. I then retook that fort with a couple of other people who turned up. Then escorted another bull to another fort.
In the end with no more than three other people around me I got all four events done.
Sure I didn’t complete the meta and kill all the legendaries, but if I wanted to do that I’d throw up a LFG.
More waypoints in Silverwastes wouldn’t help me do the meta, only more players.

General Health.9678:

Your point was that too few waypoints would lead to map death.
This is not the case.
Todays daily was silverwastes. There was nothing in LFG so I just stayed on the map I landed on. I was the only person escorting the first bull to the first fort. I then retook that fort with a couple of other people who turned up. Then escorted another bull to another fort.
In the end with no more than three other people around me I got all four events done.
Sure I didn’t complete the meta and kill all the legendaries, but if I wanted to do that I’d throw up a LFG.
More waypoints in Silverwastes wouldn’t help me do the meta, only more players.

How is an entire map with only <10 players not “map death”? Also, while you might have been able to do the forts (in part because you got lucky and some other people who were doing dailies showed up, which is not the general case), you also said that you couldn’t actually do many of the other events without LFG. On the original maps, LFG for open world events is not needed, because there are enough people incidentally around to do most of them. Even for crazy ones like Triple Wurm, there are enough people randomly around for you to do it without LFG and why? Because there is a waypoint right there at the start, so people just come if they want to do it. Most trackers don’t even bother showing the stuff on the new maps because either you organize to get there or you just don’t do them. The middle ground of “there are enough people here to just go if I want” is lost without waypoints.

I’ve never seen TT done randomly successfully, always used a guild based LFG to do it actually successfully. World bosses are advertised on a timer site so people know when to turn up. Use one to know when the metas start on HoT maps.
For all I know there were hundreds of people doing other silverwastes maps but without the LFG taxi I don’t know that. If I wanted to populate the map I was on, I’d add a taxi and wait for people. This doesn’t mean Silverwastes has failed as a concept, it was just me being there for the daily and not to organize a whole map, I’m in the middle of map completion in TD on my Daredevil and I was keen to get back to doing that.
People who want to do the meta on a map, use a timer site and set up taxis. It doesn’t matter if there are one or 10 waypoints, look at Dragon’s Stand, waypoints everywhere. Doesn’t make it more or less popular for that reason, in fact they are all contested until the meta starts and it kicks off from the first waypoint on the map.

I mostly agree with the OP. I think new maps from now on should have more waypoints. However, it messes up map completion to add more waypoints. At best, you can move waypoints to more convenient locations (and/or make them contested less often) — which is what happened in the Spring patch.

Afraid that I have to disagree with the OP (to an extent). Perhaps it is a problem to have way points too far apart. I don’t doubt that there is a lecture to that effect in game design 101. On the other hand I believe that the way points in the core maps are too close together and that those on post-release maps are not too far apart. They seem just about right to me.

I disagree with OP. I have never had any trouble with fewer waypoints in the recent maps, especially not in the HoT maps since gliding and wallows makes it really easy to get around there. I rarely find myself on an “empty” map, and if I can’t do something alone several helpful people are usually just a map chat away.
Oh, btw, taking the forts in SW is quite easy to do solo, luck has little to do with it.

Ashen.2907:

Afraid that I have to disagree with the OP (to an extent). Perhaps it is a problem to have way points too far apart. I don’t doubt that there is a lecture to that effect in game design 101. On the other hand I believe that the way points in the core maps are too close together and that those on post-release maps are not too far apart. They seem just about right to me.

Agreed. So long as they’re not contested for too long, it’s fine to have a lower number of waypoints. It does beggar the question why are they building waypoints in heavily contested areas, though. After getting shoved to ‘safe’ waypoints one too many times, I question the tactical intelligence of those laying out the waypoints in these unsafe areas. :P

Overall, Verdant Brink and Auric Basin are fairly well laid out for waypoints. I have my arguments about canopy access during off times, but that was part of the design as intended rather than how the map is actually played.

I’m also generally okay with Silverwastes, oddly enough. It’s a flat enough map that it’s easy to get around and make nearly straight lines to your destination. Skritt holes need pointing arrows like the wallows have, though.
I’m sure there’s a want for there to be waypoints at every base, but that would clip the strategic value of having several teams of players deal with each one.

Just as an example of the things that make people leave due to lack of WP: You are fighting the Vinewrath. You go down. Your choices are abandon the fight completely or lay there and hope someone helps. Without a waypoint, once you go down in that fight you are out of it. The time needed to walk back is too long. And that is the kind of things that makes people give up on the Silverwastes map.

I don’t agree. It takes only a minute or two to run across the entire map in The Silverwastes. If the event is that close to being over, you can just wait the minute or two; otherwise, you can run across the map.

If your character is not strong enough to survive running across such maps yet, it may behoove you to play other maps until it is.

My opinion only, of course.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Just as an example of the things that make people leave due to lack of WP: You are fighting the Vinewrath. You go down. Your choices are abandon the fight completely or lay there and hope someone helps. Without a waypoint, once you go down in that fight you are out of it. The time needed to walk back is too long. And that is the kind of things that makes people give up on the Silverwastes map.

I understand where you are coming from, but having just left SW after a successful run, I’m not seeing how after 2 years this has become an issue. I have yet to see in the last few months, an unsuccessful Vinewrath run or a map which hasn’t been able to pull enough people together. If the wp distances were an issue, VW would be failing a lot from lack of players, but it isn’t happening.

Tangled Depths is the only map I have seen where WPs are a problem for players, but it’s because they haven’t adapted to the use of Nuhoch Wallows and/or the map is confusing in layout for many.

This is the lair of an Elder Dragon, with no real Pact set up like in Orr. Currently we have a WP network which is sparser in most maps (albeit one which is absolutely spot on in my opinion) and creates a greater sense of danger and feeling like the jungle is against you. This aspect is excellent map design.

I agree with your game 101 design about save points, but it isn’t applicable here, due to the tactically well spaced waypoints (ie at every major encampment or event hub). If Auric had one at the start and one in the mid and nothing else, you’d be spot on, but having one at each compass point and being 1-2 mins run from each other doesn’t create an issue.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Put in more waypoints. Give all the maps the kind of coverage the original maps had. Difficulty is fine, but difficulty by forced repetition is not.

I’m not against more waypoints. However, go back to the old L80 maps — they too have a scarcity of waypoints and some get contested. (Especially Dry Top & Silverwastes, not to mention Orr). Worse, most of the L80 maps do not have tools for jumping around faster, such as gliding, nuhoch tunnels, etc.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

the EXTREME paucity of waypoints

Bravo on the use of ‘paucity’. I like.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Game design 101: If you place your save points too far apart, people will stop playing because they don’t want to do the same thing over and over.

Some people will stop; others will keep at it because they’re drawn to exactly that challenge, and plenty of games attest to that including Super Meat Boy as you mentioned.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

There is a reason that “torture platformers” like Super Meat Boy have short levels. You can only make a level so long and bank on the determination of people to show their skill so much before the annoyance of repetition kicks in.

Even so, I found the levels of Super Meat Boy too long. I hated it. Should I be arguing for SMB to be made easier? Or just leave it to those that enjoy that sort of thing?

Boogiepop Void.6473:

By the way, that is literally part of the Game Design 101 class. An entire lecture was on that topic.

Classes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I was working in IT at the same time as studying it and I remember a few lectures that were out of touch with the reality I saw at work. Classes are great for teaching theories, but when it comes to practical applications and providing content for customers who are paying you to do so, rather than lecturers whom you pay and who couldn’t give a stuff if you learn what they teach, it’s kind of a different ball game.