Guild Wars 2

I see this constantly and I can’t help but wonder, every time… “what does this mean?”

I come from games like Ultima Online, Shadowbane, EVE and Darkfall, where “endgame” means you hit max level (or at least a level at which everything you want your character to be able to do, he can do) and then just run around doing whatever you want. Endgame, to me, means “I don’t have to worry about stats or levels anymore- now I just run around making my own fun!”.

I did play EQ for 1 or 2 years, WoW for about 5 years, and Rift for about 1.5 … their endgames involved gear grinding via raids. Is this what folks want, when they say “no endgame”?

I’m honestly curious. The /age on my account is close to 1,000 hours since headstart (very, very few of those are afk). My main character, my engineer, has 500 of those hours. I still have not done anywhere near all the stuff I want to on that character. So, I’m confused when folks say “there is nothing to do. There is no endgame”.

So what does it mean? When you say those words, what are you wanting to see in this game?

It means they want raid content like in WoW.

“Doing whatever you want” is the endgame here as well.

I’d wager it means, for most people who say it:

• Little to no level cap exclusive content
• No continual stat progression after level cap.

TheDaiBish.9735:

I’d wager it means, for most people who say it:

• Little to no level cap exclusive content
• No continual stat progression after level cap.

What would those things consist of, though? Raids? Gear grinds? Or something entirely different?

Endgame is for example in chess when few pieces are left the game changes.

Now with a mmo i guess it is when you are at the point of being full dungeon geared and are ready to move on to something more appropriate to your gear / level

Now A-net do give us new content, if you consider southsun or indeed any world boss, it’s just a zerg which you could possibly do naked.

Tolmos.8395:

TheDaiBish.9735:

I’d wager it means, for most people who say it:

• Little to no level cap exclusive content
• No continual stat progression after level cap.

What would those things consist of, though? Raids? Gear grinds? Or something entirely different?

For most people, probably.

I’m still playing, and I’m still happy with the game. That’s not to say it’s perfect, and the game could do with progression after cap.

Instead of instanced raids, improve upon and add more large open world events, and instead of stat progression, maybe personal progression in the form or advancing in the world i.e. Racial rep, Order ranks, Area rep, skill advancement and modifications ect.

When I get to a computer, i’ll flesh these out more.

….by saying that some people want to see a boring gear grind where you are funneled into raids where week after week you pray to the RNG gods [or a puffed up Guild Master and his followers] that you’ll get gear. Gear, gear, gear and more gear: end game is, for many, about gear.

I absolutely love the end game model of Guild Wars 2, or as some would observe, the lack thereof. Level down-scaling is awesome, I love the dungeons too. We could use more permanent content (especially dungeons and world bosses), however. The game is still young, and I have faith that things like that will come.

End game is just what you do after capping your level, but I feel as if “levels” are almost pointless in this game with it having the system that it does. I wrote about that a few days ago, and many didn’t agree – but I still feel as if raw levels in this game are almost made moot by how it’s designed, and that’s, for me, a good thing.

I dislike any kind of endgame where the gameplay changes from what I was enjoying getting there :p

Just passed 1000 hours too, still haven’t completed the story or map yet, much to do much to do

TheDaiBish.9735:

Tolmos.8395:

TheDaiBish.9735:

I’d wager it means, for most people who say it:

• Little to no level cap exclusive content
• No continual stat progression after level cap.

What would those things consist of, though? Raids? Gear grinds? Or something entirely different?

For most people, probably.

I’m still playing, and I’m still happy with the game. That’s not to say it’s perfect, and the game could do with progression after cap.

Instead of instanced raids, improve upon and add more large open world events, and instead of stat progression, maybe personal progression in the form or advancing in the world i.e. Racial rep, Order ranks, Area rep, skill advancement and modifications ect.

When I get to a computer, i’ll flesh these out more.

Just what we need more events where we zerg and auto attack while tabbed out

For many of us endgame is enjoying the game in the manner which we like. Whether that be fighting in WvW, doing PVP, roleplaying with guildies, dungeon crawling for new skins, grinding mats for a legendary, doing some DEs, leveling an alt, taking part in the living story, trying out new builds ….. ect, and on and on.

For others endgame is: Racing to cap level as fast as possible, figuring out which dungeon is the easiest and repeating that dungeon a hundred times till you have enough gold to buy 10 legendaries, raiding high level dungeons for gear that has better stats than what the majority of the player base has, going to WvW with some friends to gank people 4 on 1, fighting lots of 1v1s and losing despite claims to being “pro” players, screaming on the forums for Anet to add even more stat based gear so that their stat advantage can become larger and larger to help mask their lack of skill. And last but not least, starting a dungeon run with 3 guildies and then kicking some poor slob that is not one their buddies from their 5 man group right before the reward chest – then laughing their 16 year old butts off about it.

So as you can see, End-game can differ quite a bit from person to person.

RoRo.8270:

Just what we need more events where we zerg and auto attack while tabbed out

I’m guessing you didn’t read or understand the ‘improve upon’?

Tolmos.8395:

I see this constantly and I can’t help but wonder, every time… “what does this mean?”

It means that some players have been so well deceived by developers of pay to play MMOs that they truly believe all the flaws in those games – the grindy based time sinks such as raids, mounts and etc – are actually a required part of any MMORPG game.

Erasculio.2914:

Tolmos.8395:

I see this constantly and I can’t help but wonder, every time… “what does this mean?”

It means that some players have been so well deceived by developers of pay to play MMOs…

Or “conditioned” is more like it, haha.

Is there a MMO where there’s DECENT endgame? I haven’t seen any.

Odin of Ark.4860:

Is there a MMO where there’s DECENT endgame? I haven’t seen any.

try Gw2 … I hear that game has a pretty decent end-game for folks that approach games as a form of entertainment, and not work. They also say it’s a pretty good game for folks that love to compete with others on a level playing field without stat advantages.

But if you don’t like GW2, or it’s approach …

try, World of Warcraft. Despite the fashionable trend to bash WoW, ignore that, it’s a time tested oldie but goldie. WoW has plenty of classes and builds, does not require a high end comp, and has tons of endgame raiding based on the traditional vertical progression model.

No I’m saying some people complain about this games endgame being bad. What I’m saying name a game with GOOD endgame.

Ision.3207:

For many of us endgame is enjoying the game in the manner which we like. Whether that be fighting in WvW, doing PVP, roleplaying with guildies, dungeon crawling for new skins, grinding mats for a legendary, doing some DEs, leveling an alt, taking part in the living story, trying out new builds ….. ect, and on and on.

• WvW is just plain kittening boring, and is accessible at all levels.
• PvP is not “endgame” because you get access to it at level 2. It’s not exclusive.
• Roleplaying with guildies? What are we 12?
• WOO YEH BABAY NEW SKINS THAT HAVE SAME STATS AS ALL OTHER WEAPONS
• Legendary grinding? Yeah for a sweet looking skin. But aside from it’s “cool points” its just as useful in battle as an 80 exotic.
• Yeah, how fun. After doing them over and over again while leveling, I can’t wait to do it when I’m 80. At least people will see how pretty I look now though.
• Living story is crap
• Trying out new builds? Is that even an endgame?

Things you forgot to add

• Don’t even mention 100% map. Running around and jumping is NOT a character progressing endgame. The least it can be is “fun”.

Phew, now that that’s off my chest, let the rage-filled casuals tear me to shreds. I am ready.

Lots of games have good end-game IF …………………

IF … gaming is not your primary activity in life.

In other words, If you have a girlfriend and spend time with her, if you have a full time job, if you have other responsibilities in life that take a great deal of your time, if you enjoy other hobbies or forms of entertainment other than cartoon video games, and for the teenagers: if your parents monitor your gaming hours and ensure its not excessive … if these things are true, then games like GW2 or WoW or Lotro or or …. will give you hours and hours of great fun, with a seemingly endless number of activities to do.

On the other hand, if you spend 5 hours a day, 6 days a week playing the exact same cartoon video game … then NO, there is absolutely no game I know of that will have an endgame for you, because you will have consumed the game within a few short months. In essence, if the game has become a full-time job in itself, you will not find an “end-game” in any MMO that I know of.

JoakimFA.4713:

Ision.3207:

For many of us endgame is enjoying the game in the manner which we like. Whether that be fighting in WvW, doing PVP, roleplaying with guildies, dungeon crawling for new skins, grinding mats for a legendary, doing some DEs, leveling an alt, taking part in the living story, trying out new builds ….. ect, and on and on.

• Roleplaying with guildies? What are we 12?

…No but tbqh it seems you are quite ignorant by this and by many of your other points, but especially this. RP requires more skill; that is more of a grasp of language and knowledge of any given lore and how to implement that into a story, sometimes on the fly, than the likes of you will probably ever have. What are you, 50? Some old burned out man going through a mid-life crisis, thinking about buying a Harley only to fly off it and cause a traffic jam for all of us?

Endgame is what you do after you hit maximum level and the game changes because all of your previous content was made to hold you off until you reached maximum level (in addition to making you have fun of course).

You either then give players themepark or sandbox content.

PvP by its very nature is sandbox. PvE is generally themepark.

So “endgame” usually consists of PvP with time consuming, regularly added PvE content usually created to keep players busy enough just until the next set of PvE content.

This applies to most non-sandbox MMOs. Guild Wars 2 is no exception.

To say that your game has no end-game is to say that either:
1.) You literally do the exact same things you did before max level
2.) You have no content for players to do at max level
3.) You don’t have levels or they are not important

Guild Wars 2 has endgame. Actually Guild Wars 2 has the SAME ENDGAME as most MMOs minus raids.

To think anything else is simply delusional. What do most games have? Dungeons, instanced PvP, open world/large scale PvP. What does GW2 have? Dungeons, instanced PvP, large scale PvP.

That is what Guild Wars 2 endgame is. They’ve tried to supplement that with temporary content, but that won’t keep players over.

Instead, they’re going to go the Fractals route. Add permanent content that takes a long time to fully go through and gives cosmetic/ascended rewards.

Make sense?

Guild Wars 2 is like any MMO but with a bunch of bonuses like WvW, active combat, personal story, actual cities, etc.

Really, it’s not that different. If you’re looking for a revolutionary MMO different than anything else, look at a sandbox one like Pathfinder Online.

ESO online and Wildstar are going to be the same. Zones to level you, end game dungeons and PvP with cosmetic and/or stat based rewards.

The only MMOs that will ever be fundamentally different will be sandbox like Planetside 2, EVE Online, or Pathfinder Online. Anything else will be a better or worse version of the MMO you’re used to.

Ision.3207:

Lots of games have good end-game IF …………………

IF … gaming is not your primary activity in life.

In other words, If you have a girlfriend and spend time with her, if you have a full time job, if you have other responsibilities in life that take a great deal of your time, if you enjoy other hobbies or forms of entertainment other than cartoon video games, and for the teenagers: if your parents monitor your gaming hours and ensure its not excessive … if these things are true, then games like GW2 or WoW or Lotro or or …. will give you hours and hours of great fun, with a seemingly endless number of activities to do.

On the other hand, if you spend 5 hours a day, 6 days a week playing the exact same cartoon video game … then NO, there is absolutely no game I know of that will have an endgame for you, because you will have consumed the game within a few short months. In essence, if the game has become a full-time job in itself, you will not find an “end-game” in any MMO that I know of.

Very true post on the whole – but … EVE Online. And other true sandboxes.

And, possibly (this is more a thing for the future, something that’s developing) …. games with UGC, like STO or Neverwinter (kitten wish they’d put the foundry in CO too ).

Fundamentally, no game with only dev-created content is ever going to have “enough” content. The only option for real longevity is that the players can somehow create content themselves. In a lot of “themepark” MMOs in the past, this was somewhat handled by things like housing and other “fluff” activities; and “sandbox” games are of course designed for this very purpose.

The catch is that sandbox games require more dedication and commitment from their players, so they’re only ever going to be niche – also, player-created content is fine and fun for those who are making it, but you can’t beat a good story written by a professional storyteller.

That’s why I do actually see UGC as a bit of a saviour for “themepark” MMOs in the future. Cryptic have been pioneering this, and are the most expert in the field so far, but I’m sure other companies are going to get into it too (it’s already part of some of the less hardcore games out there).

Ultimately, it’s always been a dream for MMORPGs to have evolving dev-created content (which is what Anet are trying to do with “living world”), and/or endless content created by players. But for the latter part, it’s not been technically feasible to have players designing game parts until relatively recently.

In the real world, we create “content” for each other that’s endlessly entertaining. It should theoretically be possible to set up virtual worlds in the same way, and I’m sure games will get better and better at it.

All MMO’s with an endgame has consisted of raids to grind gear. People honestly do not know what they want and will never be happy. For instance, people wanted more solo content for living story. Anet gave them just that and they complained that they can’t group up. Anet gave them group content and they complain that they have to team up.

Ayrilana.1396:

All MMO’s with an endgame has consisted of raids to grind gear. People honestly do not know what they want and will never be happy. For instance, people wanted more solo content for living story. Anet gave them just that and they complained that they can’t group up. Anet gave them group content and they complain that they have to team up.

Some eople just want something to do that isn’t too annoying and makes them feel like they’re not wasting their time.

Others want challenging content that is fun to complete.

Others want a mix of both, your usual raider. They want something to do that is challenging but rewards them and creates a feeling of progression.

Others want an MMOFS Massively Multiplayer Online Facebook Simulator

End game only means really, what you do after you’re through leveling. You get to 80 and after that, the stuff you do is end game. Everyone has different ideas of what end game is.

For a lot of people end game is PvP (either SPvP or WvW). But in most games, there’s a separate end game for PvE, which usually takes the form of raids and gear grind, plus maybe a bunch of dailies to get faction reputation with specific factions. Guild Wars 1 had this sort of faction rep end game too, which allowed you to make certain PvE only skills more powerful.

Guild Wars 2’s end game is more amorphous than most MMOs. Some people will grind Fractals for an end game, some people will run dungeons for tokens, some will just make alts, because they enjoy the open world so much…and that’s just as viable.

Me, my end game is what I do with my guild. We had a great day today. Did a guild bounty and a guild trek for guild merits (still trying to unlock the final guild mission type), then did some meta events together, followed by a run through Obsidian Sanctum in WvW, to get the aetherblade weapon cache. There was this annoying guild camping the end of the puzzles (their guild tag is camp) and we got beat back a few times, before taking the top from them and holding it against them.

Then later we did a few more meta events, Vexa’s Lab, another mini dungeon and finally a level 10 fractal run. It was a fun time.

Nothing I did today was something I haven’t done before. But I had a blast anyway.

Purely speaking for themepark game, and only talking about pve. I think it means doing something you havn’t done before and keep doing that.

In other games, content are usually heavily gated by gear check and grind. And usually those raid take several month to finish.

In this game, by the time you get to 80, and get full exotic the next day, and finish all the dungeon in a day or 2, you scratch your head thinking … wow I finish all the PvE content in this game.

laokoko.7403:

Purely speaking for themepark game. I think it means doing something you havn’t done before and keep doing that.

In other games, content are usually heavily gated by gear check and grind. And usually those raid take several month to finish.

In this game, by the time you get to 80, and get full exotic the next day, and finish all the dungeon in a day or 2, you scratch your head thinking … wow I finish all the PvE content in this game.

I’m pretty sure most players don’t finish all 33 dungeon paths in 2 days, plus all the fractals and world completion.

And of course, some people actually do like the living story.

And then for some people, their end game is chasing achievements. You may not like it, but it doesn’t make it less valid an end game for someone else.

I dunno, I still feel like WvW is lacking in depth to be an endgame content that I would enjoy. As of now, my character is just floating around, doing whatever hits my fancy at the moment. I’m ambivalent towards the current state of gw2, neither terribly bored nor excited. I’d rather have GvG or smaller territorial wars as endgame where I wouldn’t feel too insignificant unlike in wvw.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Purely speaking for themepark game. I think it means doing something you havn’t done before and keep doing that.

In other games, content are usually heavily gated by gear check and grind. And usually those raid take several month to finish.

In this game, by the time you get to 80, and get full exotic the next day, and finish all the dungeon in a day or 2, you scratch your head thinking … wow I finish all the PvE content in this game.

I’m pretty sure most players don’t finish all 33 dungeon paths in 2 days, plus all the fractals and world completion.

And of course, some people actually do like the living story.

And then for some people, their end game is chasing achievements. You may not like it, but it doesn’t make it less valid an end game for someone else.

I finished my personal story on 7 character, map completion on 2, and 98% map completion on another 5 character. Did 32 dungeon path.

I think most people just didn’t do those map completion and dungeon because they don’t care. You don’t get anything for doing map completion or dungeon. Doing a dungeon won’t unlock another dungeon for you.

It’s the concept of fighting big dragon to get a sword to fight a bigger dragon. That’s what happening in other game, and not in this game. The sense of progression.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. That’s what generally people felt. Fill free to goto any mmorpg website and that’s what people will tell you. GW2 have a lack of endgame, very casual game, if you are looking for a mmorpg to play like a second job dont’ play it. Else it’s pretty good for people who have a lack of time.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Purely speaking for themepark game. I think it means doing something you havn’t done before and keep doing that.

In other games, content are usually heavily gated by gear check and grind. And usually those raid take several month to finish.

In this game, by the time you get to 80, and get full exotic the next day, and finish all the dungeon in a day or 2, you scratch your head thinking … wow I finish all the PvE content in this game.

I’m pretty sure most players don’t finish all 33 dungeon paths in 2 days, plus all the fractals and world completion.

And of course, some people actually do like the living story.

And then for some people, their end game is chasing achievements. You may not like it, but it doesn’t make it less valid an end game for someone else.

I finished my personal story on 7 character, map completion on 2, and 98% map completion on another 5 character. Did 32 dungeon path.

I think most people just didn’t do those map completion and dungeon because they don’t care. You don’t get anything for doing map completion or dungeon. Doing a dungeon won’t unlock another dungeon for you.

It’s the concept of fighting big dragon to get a sword to fight a bigger dragon. That’s what happening in other game, and not in this game. The sense of progression.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. That’s what generally people felt. Fill free to goto any mmorpg website and that’s what people will tell you. GW2 have a lack of endgame, very casual game, if you are looking for a mmorpg to play like a second job dont’ play it. Else it’s pretty good for people who have a lack of time.

But there are people who like to do the ocassional dungeon and don’t want to run out and rush through them all, like me. I just got my Dungeon Master title last month, when I finally beat Arah path 4. I certainly didn’t do dungeons in order and didn’t go out of my way to do every path of every dungeon. I did them as people want to do them.

The same with fractals. I’m only up to fractal level 20, but I’ve done well over 300 fractals. Why? Because I help some of my guildies out on lower level fractals when they need help.

There are people who burn through content and people who take their time on content.

If you don’t look up where the mini dungeons are, and you don’t look up where the jumping puzzles are, and you go out and look for them, this game lasts a whole lot longer.

You can play however you want Vayne. I’m just rephrasing what people felt about this game from quotes on mmorpg website.

“Endgame” is character progression after level cap.

Character progression is open for interpretation. Story, gear, instanced content, exploration, achievements, pvp.

While GW2 has all these things, very little is exclusive to being level 80. Some content needs to be added to add a sense of progression to being max level, something exclusive to being an 80 besides Orr, that has a clear sense of continuing a leveling process. These things need to have a degree of challenge to make people feel like they have accomplished something, and need to have a way of being seen by other people.

While some may say they don’t like it, having certain characters that have rare cosmetics or achieves gives others something to strive for as well, as long as these are acquired by skill and not bought off the gemstore or through gold buying or by rng.

There needs to be progression for strictly level 80 characters.

laokoko.7403:

You can play however you want Vayne. I’m just rephrasing what people felt about this game from quotes on mmorpg website.

What some people felt. And a lot of people don’t feel that way. I’m giving you the other side of the story.

You really think I’m the only guy that didn’t run out and do every dungeon?

ITT Shills and Detractors converse above each others heads while anet counts their money from RNG boxes. More on this and other “My opinion is better than your opinion” at 11.

Brutal Arts.6307:

ITT Shills and Detractors converse above each others heads while anet counts their money from RNG boxes. More on this and other “My opinion is better than your opinion” at 11.

lol, +1